Hi all, I stayed away for a long time and now I'm back with a vengence it seems. I guess that's because I THOUGHT I knew what was happening and now I don't know again.<P>Some thoughts; I think I realize what went wrong in my marriage (coupled with other things). I am a focused "doer" and when I really think about it my husband has NO initiative or to put it a different way is a very passive person. I think through time I lost some respect for him and I showed it in little and sometimes hurtful ways. He has many good qualities but in the day to day stresses of both of us working and raising 4 difficult children I felt like he was another child to have to take care of or at least another adolescent sometimes. <P>When I say he has no initiative - I'm not kidding. This is a person who couldn't even remember to bring the garbage out without a note taped to the front door. He could get up and go to work and be an attentive husband and father as long as it took no thought. And it didn't because I did all the thinking for both of us.<P>Another sore point for him - I went to college and make more money than he does and have a better job than he does. He has to work long hours and commute about 40 min each way. But I put myself through college when we were first married (initiative again) and he didn't want to. Now I guess our social stratas changed. I work with people who go to Europe on vacation and his coworkers go camping (not that there's anything wrong with that!!)I think I sent him the message for a long time that he wasn't good enough because of these types of things.<P>So he hooks up with someone on the internet to have an EA with and complain about how they are so misunderstood and has a sexual fling with a 20 year old (again adolesence!!!)<BR>But the 20 year old gets pregnant and he is sooooo mad at me that he can't sort things out and is all twisted up inside.<P>So, where am I going with this? I don't know. I guess it's just weird for me to (the control freak) to not fully understand what's going on here. I can't decide if he is coming out of the "fog" or just wants to be comfortable again. He is in dire straights financially but I would never want him back just because of that, I think. He is such a conflict avoider that I wonder if he just doesn't feel uncomfortable with Plan B (he has said how much he hates having no contact) and wants to get to a place where we can talk. He can be delusional sometimes. He said to someone when we first separated that at least we would still be friends (as if!)<P>I don't know where I am going with this and I guess I just needed to vent. I like to have things more defined than this. Are we working on our marriage or not? We have an appt. with our counselor Wed. pm. Can I ask that? I sense that I should move slow but I am back to obsessing and do not like that. It was actually easier for me mentally when I finally thought we were getting divorced because then I knew what was going on.<P>Another thing is that I know he will NEVER agree to leave his job (so much of his ego is wrapped up in it) and he does work with the OW. he also wants to stay in contact with OC and if he stays with this job which is 40 min away and in the OW's town I'll have no control over when, if and how he sees the OC etc. I really don't know what to do.<P>I know I'm supposed to feel ambivilent at this point but THIS ambivilent? At counseling each week the counselor asks us what we want to get out of this. The second time we went he said "I want to work on the marriage". I asked him about that on our "date" last week. He mumbled something about being glad we are finally talking. I always answer that question with an "I don't know" which is the truth. <P>I feel like we will never find our way out of this mess. I know this is long but I really am struggling. It's interesting that he called an old friend of ours out of the blue this week just to shoot the breeze and his brother called me today to talk to the kids. Oh, I don't know.... I don't know....... Anyway sorry to ramble<BR> Kris

QM:<P>Ramble on....I understand your ambivalence...I am going through something right now that is causing me to reassess whether or not I am better off with or better off without my spouse.<P>It's such a tough call. We can't change them...and until they ruined our marriages and damaged us, you were probably like me and thought that this was just what marraige was all about; accepting each others faults and making the best of things, hoping in time you would grow into a closeness and intimacy that would provide a satisfying marriage for both of you. <P>I wanted that so I struggled with my spouse all these years and put up with so much from him from his reckless behavior, to his conflict avoidance, to occasionally withdrawing from me simply because he was faithful to me. When that left, there wasn't much for me to draw on. It meant that much to me...now I don't even have that...and on top of it all, there was a preganacy and an OC...there is nothing on the face of the earth, barring a child's grave illness, accident or death, that can compare with this kind of intense pain. So, when we are faced with this life altering event that changes US so much, and we are the ONLY ones fighting for the marriage and making all the effort to reconnect, it is a dismal forecast for the rest of our marriage.<P>They say a tiger doesn't change its stripes and while it may appear the stripes are changing a bit at times, esepcially in the beginning of true recovery, they seem to always revert back into the same patterns when they comfortable...then they become complacent. When this happens, we are less than inspired to stay the course...because...why should we? What's in it for us at this point? <P>If you're like me, I am exhausted and discouraged and caring less and less as time goes by. I haven't been posting this on the forum because I've been waiting to see what happens with my un-marraige before I said too much because things have a way of changing dramatically. My husband is a roaring alcoholic and is a major manic depressive (bipolar 1 disorder) and he has been drinking again for the past week. I noticed something on Memorial Day weekend and intermittently throughout the week. And I noticed he gives into the desire, the whim and does nothing to stop himself from self destruction.<P>If my husband drinks, all the reckless and scary and horrible behavior comes rushing full force and turns our/my life upside down again. He is not willing to work a program of recovery, apparantly, and has no intention of stopping drinking except momentarily when he is afraid I am going to leave him. So, he is being dishonest and pishing the envelope thinking I will always be here, regardless of what he does. He talks a great talk, makes loads of promises, and then breaks every one of them. This is no way for either of us to live. As a result, I have no stability or safety and I am loosing love for him, any trust that has been rebuilt (who can beleive a chronic liar?) and since I worked so hard to preserve this marriage, forgave him all the damage and remained in the marriage Plan Aing him to death without getting much in return...the well has become really, really dry. It's too bad, too, because my husband is so charasmatic and handsome and funny and intelligent, creative....but he is so toxic and so dangerous and I find myself spending a great deal of time trying to figure out where I should go, where I could live alone without needing him and what to do to get out of this.<P>Where even six months ago I would have rather died than live without him, now I would rather live alone and never see him again. I am that tired of living like this...with all this unpredictability and angst. Never really feeling safe or sure of anything, never knowing what he is really thinking or what his motive to be with me really is and not sure of how to proceed to change things for myself.<P>This is a man who I was so deeply in love with, I spent nineteen years thanking God every day for bringing us together. Then he lost his 18 years of sobriety and went on a rampage that ruined everything. It could have all been mended, all resolved, if only he wouldn't have been such a big baby, been so weak, been a real man and faced what he had done and moved forward and not allowed self pity to make him say "poor me, poor me, pour me another drink".<P>So what is in it for us to hang tough with hopeless cases? There has to be a statute of limitations here...when is enough enough? How long, what is the time line for endurance before we loose anymore precious time?<P>If they are luke warm or continue to sabotage the gift of recovery, then what more can we do? If we are happier and at greater peace without them, then why stay and allow ourselves to be chronically damaged? I guess I am at such a crossroads now and I hesitate to hit the 'post reply' button because I am discouraged and I suppose I should be up and positive on "Marriage BUILDERS" instead of treating it as Marriage Destructo. But, these are things that have to be said. I know in my heart I have given it everything, I mean everything I had to give and more and this is what comes back to me in return.<P>I am not depressed or even angry...I am even past all that. I am a little sad but more than that I am becoming indifferent...the most dangerous of all the emotions, because it is emotionless. When that happens, its pretty much all over but the shouting. When we slip into the "I don't really care all that much" phase, then the WS is stupid and ignorant not to finally pick up the ball for a last ditch effort...but then, if they do not feel we are worth the effort (until they get divorce papers) they will sit on their miserable worthless asses and allow us to slip away and only later will come the weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then, it's too late, we've moved on and there is no more room in our lives for them.<P>Think about it...what a gift they have recieved! After doing the worst possible thing a man can do to his wife and marriage, they are still able to have their marriage, be forgiven and even in some cases, have the OC in their lives. The generosity of the Betrayed Spouse amazes me...and to have that gift go unacknowledged is the most grievous sin. To be treated with a cavalier attitude, or to be rejected or to do all the work associated to repair and restore the marriage until they come oout of the fog only to have them loose steam later, feels to us to have been a huge waste of time. <P>But it isn't a waste of time if we don't allow it to run us and ruin us forever. We give it a certian amount of time, then if they don't step up to the plate, then we impose a time limit, whatever it is we can endure and live with. If at the end of the time limit no improvements have been worthwhile enough to stay the course, we consider dropping out of the race....because, we only go around once here and time is so precious. I don't want to spend it with someone who lies to me, deceives me, sabotages everything good, is weak and filled with self pity because we have had to alter our lives and then drinks a half gallon of vodka to kill his pain. I want a man who is so appreciative of another chance at happiness, he wouldn't dream of doing anything to fu*k it up.<P>I'm not saying he has to grovel at my feet; not at all! I wouldn't respect someone who did that and I would feel like an overbearing bytch if I treated him that way. But I certainly do not resepct a man who cannot display a measure of self control, be thoughtful enough to consider for a moment..."if I do this, it will hurt my wife, my marriage and cause us to loose precious ground".<P>Well, QM, it seems I have ended up crashing your thread talking about me. I guess I got carried away. Basically I wanted to tell you to pay attention to your gut instincts...only you know if he is worth it, worthy of you and if you want to bring him back into your life, whether or not he will enhance it, or make your life a huge looming question, filled with doubt and uncertainty.<P>Today's society has produced a rash of spineless, immature and weak men who buy into a lot of media BS and as a result we are often raising more than just our children...we are left to raise our husbands as well.<P>If my husband gets sober today and stays sober six months, working a program of recovery, then I will stay. If he continues to drink and make me feel like I am living on a fault line, I am baling. Tick tock, time's running out.<P>Good luck with your decision process, QM...I know what you are saying, Honey, and I think it is high time for "mumbles' to speak up and tell you what is in his heart and in his head...and be honest or let you off the hook.<P>Someone once told me that the only thing worse than being alone was to be in an unsatisfactory marriage.<P>Love<P>Catnip =^^=

Catnip, you know I feel you. We'll talk later.<P>QM, I have no words of wisdom, just know I've been there and doing it.<P>Good luck,<P>------------------<BR>Zebra Baby ...<P>Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Someone once told me that the only thing worse than being alone was to be in an unsatisfactory marriage<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Catnip, Quakermom and Zebra,<BR>What I see is all to real a feeling we all get. I agree to listen to your gut instinct. I also agree with part of Catnips statement. Being alone is not all to bad if you keep busy and have a support system. I am lucky enough to have both.<P>QM I felt like you too. Is it because he just wanted to be comfortable? Maybe he does feel comfortable with you. He should however quit that job next to ow. My H said when he realized what he had done he wished for his "old life" back without all the complications..... But he still had a thing for unborn baby and ow. Like they weren't all that bad....ugh.....<P>I think plan b made him see for sure what he wanted for the rest of his life. I still have my things ready at the attorney's for "D" if he strays ONE time. It would be the top for me...or the end....poja and trust go hand in hand. No room for 1/2 truths or lies. <P>We started all over from the day he moved home. From then on we had our old life back. I am so very happy. I love him. BUT I can make it on my own. I think because he finally realizes this we will be wonderful. I'd much rather be with him but it's up to his actions....I will never be an a*s for him again....I feel a peace with him I haven't felt since our early years.<P>Catnip I thought you were having problems again.<P>Honey you do love him right? What has he done to make you think you can't trust him anymore?<P>Drink? Is it so awful? Does it change him for the worst? If so he must stop or you can go to alanon meetings to cope.<P>If you feel like you would like to post I will read it. I will pray for you my dear friend...I hope this too will pass. You are incredible Catnip.....Bless you.<P>And you too QM and Zebrababy.<P>Love<BR>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

quakermom,<BR>I can relate so much to what you have just said. I really dont see how we would have made it if h would have stayed at his old job. He also worked with ow thats where she got knocked up was on one of the jobs. Yukkk people have no morals. I was lucky and did not have to make that choice he quit before I found out that the ow was ick ick that he worked with. I dont know what to tell you just go with what your gut instinct tells you. One thing I learned is to trust what I'm feeling. with love flowerseed<P>Catnip, <BR> Dam the booze is all I can say its a terrible thing. I was married to one that never could leave it alone for even 1 weekend so I know were your coming from he has never changed still a drunk.<BR> On another note a person can leave it alone if they truely want to when I divorced my h because of the booze,I turned into a drunk myself just as bad as him. It took my now h to make me quit he would not let me use the excuses that we all try to use. It was no more drinking or he was gone.But if I wouldnt have believed that he meant it I would have continued. I choose no more booze. I dont know what more to say I'm sorry. with love flowerseed <BR>

QM and Catnip,<BR>I have some thoughts for both of you, but I will have to wait until tomorrow to post them. Just wanted to let you know I'm thinking about you...<BR>-cd

Hi Quaker,<P>OK I am ans this question without a good enough background on you and H, and w/o reading all the other posts because what I read kinda spoke out.<P>It sounds to me that you have "outgrown" your Husband.<BR>I think you have worked VERY hard to bridge that gap <BR>( between the education and making of more money), and his infidelity was a slap in your face. It is funny I have known people in this situation, and men either except it <BR>( their wives being the breadwinners) or they "get worse" in the motivation area. sounds like your H , "gave up".<P>This is difficult but YOU NOW have to decide what it is you want. you sound VERY confused in your post. WE (our generation) were brought up to believe that a man would take care of us, Financally and we would take care of the home and family. As time went on it was acceptable for us women to have careers, and it has even become acceptable for us women to be the bread winners. BUT those of us in our late 30's and early 40's that worked so hard for our educations ( alot of woman still did not go to college in the 70's), still want to be taken care of one way or another. It does not seem your H is even willing to help in the home area. this can really turn a woman off. You mentioned that you were OK with the idea of a possible divorce, because at least you knew what to expect. it is funny how we think like that. I am the exact same way I HATE LIMBO. I HAVE to know whether I am coming or going. Maybe that is why I am not a good plan A person.I always though it was my Italian upbringing...<BR>you need to do some serious soul searching, maybe counseling alone. I give you and all the women out their who are more educated and make more money than their H's alot of credit. I actually broke up with my first fiancee because he quit college ( we were together 3+ years) my H has 3 advanced degrees ( gosh what is he doing with me???), I guess I love intelligent men. We are attracted to and love men for so many different reasons. How many times have we heard, in our situations " what are you doing with him"..I would NEVER stay if they cheated ( the old famous last words). I hope I did not "step" on any toes here.<BR>I read the post, and that was the first thing that came to my mind. You know, after everything you (we) have been through. If you are not happy with your Husband, other than the Affair and the fact we have these OC to deal with. I would do some serious soul searching. and maybe with the help of a counselor you can come up what YOU really want.<BR>Quaker, we all deserve better than this...take care MC

To all - I just want to say thank you for being such a supportive group. Another question; if one of his issues is me being controlling (I'm really not it's just that I'm more focused and he rolls over so easily and then resents it)and he thinks I made him give up a former job he loved (again delusional - he traded self-employed fishing for a job with benefits, vacations etc.) How can I say the only way I could ever consider reconnecting is if he gives up this job or asks for a transfer?<P> Again thank you all from the bottom of my heart....<BR> Kris

Dear QM,<P>Just wanted to say that everyone's input, especially<BR>MyCross-really made sense. <BR>As far as him resenting your "control", show him that<BR>not ONE person here thinks it is too much to ask for<BR>him to switch jobs to get away from ow.<BR>I've read where you have said you and the kids have<BR>come so far-part of you feels stronger. Like the others<BR>have said reach inside and find out what you NEED.<P>Dear Catnip,<P>I am sorry for your pain...<BR>For what it is worth, I lived with and loved deeply a<BR>man much like you describe your H. Again, I am very<BR>sorry for what you are going through.

look, i'm kinda late on this but "after the affair" by Janis abram spring makes it clear (good read!!) the betrayer has to make some 'low cost' and 'high cost' adjustments to renew trust, sometimes including changing jobs. <P>I think the deal here is you make up your minimum requirements (non-negot.)and state what you're willing to negotiate, and that your H has to be doing them of his own free will--no coming back later and stabbing you in the back for it!! He either cares enough to TRY, or he doesn't then you can leave in good conscience. does that make sense?<P>Prayers and best wishes,<BR>j

Dear QM,<BR>It was very strange for me to read your post because what you describe is so close to what my situation was like before the affair. I, too, had always been the one with initiative, while my h was a very passive person. I was the one who went to college, working two to three jobs between classes, so that we could have a better life. My h, on the other hand, had no inner drive. He relied on me to motivate him. When he was out of work, which was frequently in the early days, I would do everything to "help" him find a job, short of going to the interview for him. I'd peruse the help wanted sections, write down the numbers for him to call, tell him what to say, and even hand him the phone. When he was working, I would make sure his clothes were ready, make sure he was out of bed on time, and have his car keys ready at the door. otherwise, he would not have gotten to work on time. My h was raised in a home where his parents were emotionally abusive, and besides that were "generation welfare" takers, so he had absolutely no concept about how to "be a man" and take responsibility for his family. In time, I began to resent having to "push" my h to do his share to provide for us. I did feel as if I was becoming more of a mother figure to him than a wife, especially since he acted like a lazy, hostile teenager. I started to feel "used", especially because I was busting my butt all the time to work, go to college, and take care of our young son. I felt like the burden of our family fell on my shoulders alone. And h started to resent me because he felt like I was constantly taking control of everything, that nothing he did was "good enough" for me. When he actually did start to "grow up" and take more initiative for getting things done, he thought that I couldn't see it. and to be truthful, I probably didn't acknowledge the changes he was making in himself. I was so accustomed to him being irresponsible that even if I did see him taking charge of his actions, I didn't trust him to keep doing it.<P>Near the end of my last year in college, the rift between us widened as h saw how much time I was spending with classmates talking about our courses. In preparation for midterms, we would discuss for hours concepts that my h had no knowledge of, and when he would ask me to explain to him what I was studying, I would brush him off, saying "You won't understand anyway." I would become irritated because I couldn't comprehend why he was taking an interest in my schooling then when he never had before. And he would feel as if I thought he was too stupid to talk to about it, because he didn't have much of a formal education.<P>To furthur complicate matters, at this point, h's brother started hitting on me. I had no problem rebuffing his unwelcome advances, so I didn't tell my h what was going on. Partly this was because I didn't want to completely destroy h's relationship with his brother by telling him about this, and partly because I was so used to handling our problems by myself that I didn't trust h to take care of anything anyway. When h's brother became more forceful in his advances, things got worse. I actually had to punch him in the mouth one night. After this incident, I was very withdrawn emotionally from h, because even though I didn't tell him about what was going on, I was upset that he didn't notice that anything was wrong. I expected him to figure it out and do something about his lecherous brother. In time, h began to suspect that my distance from him was indicative of an affair. His suspicions were strengthened when an old boyfriend of mine started calling the house. So he turned to a coworker for comfort and their affair began.<P>When I found out about the affair, I was devastated. All at once, everything my h had done for me over the years became clear. Suddenly I could see that his lazy, irresponsible days had been over for a long time, that somehow along the line I had missed it. suddenly I could see that by not telling him about his brother, I wasn't protecting h, I was hurting him. Suddenly I realized there were so many times when h had tried to take an interest in my work and had been coldly shut out. Suddenly I could see how much I really loved him...and it was too late. H had been hurt so many times, he didn't want to come home and open himself up to the rejection again. And he couldn't shake the belief that I was in love with somebody else. He had put my emotional distance together with the phone calls from ex-boyfriend and could not believe that I had been faithful to him. And why should he come home to me, the person who had nagged and criticized him about having no ambition when he had ow telling him how wonderful, how manly, how strong he was? Telling him How much she admired him for the way he did his job and brought home the nice paycheck. How much she loved how responsible and ambitious he was. All the things that I neglected to say over the years. And she gave him sex, which I hadn't done with any regularity since h's brother started trying to put the moves on me.<P>It took a long long time to win back h's trust. and it took a long time to break ow's hold on him. Not because he loved her, but because he was afraid to commit himself to loving me again. I would like to say that I "won" h back fairly, but in truth I did not. I did everything I could to manipulate the situation to my advantage, did everything possible to make ow look bad in h's eyes. She WAS a cheap slut to begin with. But I said things about her that weren't true, made her look even worse than what she was. And I made it very hard for h to survive without me. I took his car (in my name that I paid for) so that he wouldn't be able to drive to work without help. I filed for cs, which left him with very little money to live on. And I used every trick in the book to make h want me sexually. I know that I have made it sound like it was easy for me to seduce him knowing full well that he was going back to ow's house afterwards, but it was not easy. It was painful and although I put up a good front to h and to ow, I would sob uncontrollably for hours after he left.<P>Our situation is alike in so many ways. Not only did h work with ow, but her mother also put him up for a few days, knowing full well that he was a married man. I do have a point to all of this, QM. First of all, to tell you that I DO understand where you are coming from, because even when h was ready to come home to me, I wondered if it was just because life without my support was so hard for him. Especially since I had gone out of my way to make things difficult for him. Secondly, because I didn't think that h would ever quit his job, which he had been at for three years ( a record for him then) and was the first job he had ever gotten that was actually in the field he wanted to be in (diesel mechanic). <P>so in order for us to really commit to each other, we had to both take a big leap of faith. I told him that he would have to quit his job in order to come home. In return, I promised that I would not nag him about getting another job, that I would let that entirely up to him. H said that he needed me to stop being so controlling. I had to trust him to do what was right. I had to trust that the reason he was home was because he wanted to be with me, not because of any other reason. This was especially hard for me to do, since he had done so much to break that trust. But I did. And we both agreed to be more emotionally open to each other. No more hidden resentment. It took us a long time to get to the point where we could freely share all of our emotions, both positive and negative.<P>I have to tell you, QM, that now my h is so proactive and so responsible that it is hard to believe that he is the same man. He works so hard to provide for us and takes such pride in knowing that he is truly a good husband and good father. And I am, for the first time, able to relax and be a loving and appreciative wife, instead of a mother figure. We have things worked out now so that the responsibilities weigh equally on both of us. It is a true partnership, as marriage should be.<P>I suggest that you sit down with your h and talk about all the problems that you have in relating with each other. See if you are able to come up with a working plan that both of you can agree with that will allow you to eventually reconcile. Chances are, you will both have to make some serious adjustments. but if you both really want the marriage to last, it can happen. I don't know if your h is serious about repairing the marriage, only you will be able to determine that, but I wanted to let you know that there is at least one case like yours that worked out for the best.<P>Best of luck!<BR>-cd<BR>

Dang....are we all married to the same man???? It is so comforting to know that others truly understand and either are living or have lived this same existance!! cd...it is especially comforting to know that this type of man can actually change. I'm going to use your post as a road map.<P>Much love.....<P>Broke-Down

c.d.,<BR> Gees your good! I think alot of our h do sound the same. Change a few minor details and its a match. I really liked your description of your h acting like a hostile teenager that fits what mine was doing to the T. <BR> The hardest part for me was believing. You can add mine to the list they really can change. I think the hardest part for me was to step back and let him.<BR> with love flowerseed<p>[This message has been edited by flowerseed (edited June 04, 2001).]

To all, I can so identify with what you all have said. My H is not narcissistic personality disorder, or an alcoholic,although lately I think he drinks a bit too much for my liking-like 3 drinks a day,and I told him I don't like that. I think he is stuffing his feelings into booze. Nonetheless, he is a changd man. He actually looks different in the last few months. I have lost 10-14 pounds, and I look different too-was thin anyway, so weight loss is not good. But anyway, I think H has not processed well how he got us in this mess. HOw he is responsible for all this mess. How he has screwed up our life royally. And how I am still angry with him for that.When did any of you get over the anger? This weekend I hardly talked to him because I was afraid to say something I would regret later. I had to go and do errands just to rant and rave in my car against him and the OW and their joint stupidity. I am so angry at him for not using birth control-he and her decided they didn't like using condoms-this really upsets me, although he and I used them for years-and she decided the rhythm method would work. HOw does one trust a woman he hardly knew initially he met online?What a stupid choice.Then because she decided she wants the child at all costs, he is obligated, and me, financially and emotionally. And both are destroying our marriage. Her choice-even he admits, once she got pregnant, the decision was out of his hands-so why does he feel so attached to all this? It infuriates me. The OW did what she felt she had to do-have child and raise it-but he fails to see only he can repair the huge rift he made between us for his stupid mistakes and choices. The OW certainly is not helping us in the least-in fact, every month she takes 1100 out for her livelihood. That kills me.<BR>Anyway, I am getting off the topic, but I understand about wondering if it is all worth it to stay together.When I told my H I would separate if he would not agree to no contact with OC, I think he was devastated and as we drove home from the therapist office, he said he felt incredibly sad, how it didn't have to be this way. I amazingly felt calm, finally in charge of my destiny. I didn't say anything,a nd have put separation on hold for now, but I have told my H if he continues to hurt me, I am separating. He thinks it will be hard for him to live with not seeing OC unless is contacted by OC. let him see what it will be like to hurt even more people. He will seriously hurt our kids, who are upset if he isn't home one night with them at bedtime. He will seriously hurt me, but he knows that already and that doesn't seem to phase him. He will nearly destroy his parents if they find out-he seems to minimize this, but they are very old school, traditional, have been proud of all their kids for years, all very accomplished, happy in their lives,no divorce in family at all. His parents would be shocked at what he has done, not only with affair and the birth of OC,but also hurting me and our two kids. They have known me for over 30 years and I think would support me in this.NOt to mention hurting my family and loved ones, and hurt our whole life here. The damage would be enormous,and how he could live with that I would like to see. <BR>What I don't get is how he has to see that what he has done has far reaching effects, and what he wants to do in terms of OC really carries little weight. He started affair wanting something from it for self, and now he has damaged many for his selfish acts. Do I think he deserves consideration for that? Not really.What he deserves from me is effort to improve our marriage to fix what was lacking and repair our life together. I am prepared to do that. I know he felt I ignored him at times, was preoccupied with my kids, sex was nonexistent, etc. I see that and want to do better.?But what pisses me off is he never took time to talk to me about it, just chose the affair, he never let me know how unhappy he was, and I was also enjoying our 2nd child after 4 miscarriages and dealing with the death of my father shortly after last child's birth. How understanding is that from H's perspective? <BR>We obviously have issues to work through, but for now we just act as if we are staying together for our kids sake. Very hard to do some days. Jenny wrote how their has to be some nonnegotiable losses =high cost, low cost that betrayed spouse may have to do to start to repair marriage. I think for me, no contact with OC is the nonnegotiable part. Of course H thinks I am being rigid, but that is so difficult for me to conceptualize and agree to, that that is the cost H may have to pay to keep our family together.Some of you who have contact have told others of the existence of OC and affair . I have told no one and intend to keep it that way.That is why I do not see either how H could imagine acting like a daddy and still preserve our secret. I just read Anthony Quinn died, and the obit said his 1st wife divorced him after he fathered a child with his mistress from an affair. I thought to myself-yes, I can understand wife divorcing him for this. It is vial violation of a marriage, and how many of us may find us there too? Then he wed mistress. My H has no intention of wanting life with OW he says permanently-but then why is he willing to give up all for her? IN essence,failing to meet my high cost loss to him-- ie. no contact- may result in that. <BR>I know all of you say work on marriage first- I am trying to do that, but it is very hard.And on some level, I am not sure my H is worth it-worth more pain, more damage to my and our kids, more anguish. How much can anybody take? Anyway, I am in a funk today. Enough from me.

Again, thanks so much for all the heart felt advice!!<P>CD it sounds as if our situations are somewhat similiar. My husband and I married very young, very quickly with a raging case of chemistry. Things were great until the children came and life got so complicated. <P>In my year and some since D-Day I've come to some conclusions about the type of person that falls into an affair. Please don't anyone be offended by this but it takes a weak person to make themselves feel momentarily better by an affair. Just as it takes a weak person to get involved with drugs or alcohol as a coping mechanism. That person lacks the strategies to cope with things when life gets tough.<P>It's funny, I always thought my husband and my personalities complimented each other. But as I look back on it think we evolved into a relationship where I was "management" and he was "labor". He would do anything to please me and would do anything I asked. But here lies the central conflict. I hated always having to ask and he began to slowly hate being asked. <P>It's strange how a person can blame someone else for their own shortcomings but he certainly blamed (blames) me! The fact that he wouldn't even call his own mother on a holiday without me reminding him or that he claims I caused him to not have a close relationship with his sister in Fla. (as if that is MY responsility) are just 2 examples of his lack of initiative or thought. He was always a very hard worker but that's because it took no thinking to do. You just get up and do the same thing you did the day before. <P>After we adopted the children life became more difficult. First there was the expense (adopting 4 children is no inexpensive feat) and then the stress of raising 4 somewhat difficult children. Boy, when we were doing all those homestudies I never pictured us in this boat! And I never pictured my children suffering through feeling doubly abandoned (once by birth mother and now by their adoptive father). Out of the 4, 2 have learning disabilites and 1 has a lot of adoption baggage and they also suffer somewhat from the race issue (they are all Asian).<P>So here we are... working hard, me putting the kids first (I thought they were so needy, not realizing how needy my husband was also) me making more money than he does, having better hours (I'm a teacher) and complaining that he has to work a lot of weekends. Of course some little 20 yr. old that worked for him and thought he was all that made him feel big and important. And he had NEVER said how increasingly frustrated he was becoming with our roles in the relationship!!!<P>He got himself so twisted up emotionally he couldn't think straight. And then to get her pregnant .... what an ironic heartache! When I think of all the medical tests and how I hoped and prayed to get pregnant for so many years it makes me want to scream that he knocks up (that's the only way to describe it) some young girl after having sex with her 2x (if you can believe him!) See there was no love really between them but now they share a biological child and she's played a very smart Plan A without knowing she's in Plan A. <P>Now where does this leave me? CD - it sounds like your husband did a complete turn around. I could only hope mine could do that. He may be too weak. Can you believe he'll be a man with 5 children to support and not living with any of them? If that's not an escape from responsibility I don't know what is. I could only take him back if he became proactive. I really don't know if he has it in him. However, last summer when we were trying to reconsile 1 of the things he said to me was he didn't think I could change!! <P>I realize that I could only be happy if he left that job and involved me in all OC visitations. I can't see that happening. However between yesterday and today I've decided to bide my time and continue to take things slowly. I'll still go to counseling with him and not push things about the OC yet. I'll keep wading through "The Passionate Marriage" which our counselor recommended. I am also going to proceed with my divorce action until my gut tells me not to.<P>I also wanted to tell you that I've gone out of my way to make things difficult for him. I'd love some tips on how you manipulated things to your advantage. That has been kind of hard the last 10 months because I've been in Plan B and we havn't really spoken till recently. I did put the squeeze on him financially. I wouldn't let him enter the house again even though he ofered to help with fixing things and such - why give him the opportunity to justify himself and feel like a hero?<P>Catnip - I'm sorry your're suffering. You have been helpful to me throughout this past year and if there's anything I can do let me know. I think if I renmeber correctly we live in the same general geographic location.<P>Gemini - How long were you in Plan B for?<P> Thanks to all<P> Kris<p>[This message has been edited by quakermom321 (edited June 04, 2001).]