</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dgmiss:
[QB] If your H doesn't masterbate and comes to you for satisfaction - good for you, but.....then why the need for porn?!?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's not that he 'needs' the porn for any sexual reason. He just enjoys looking at beautiful women. He doesn't get an errection while looking at these pictures and he doesn't look at them and then all of a sudden rushes me upstairs for a quicky. It's more like going to a museum and looking at art to him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Don't think that these men do this while their wives are at home, most prefer their privacy and do it while the W is gone. Any man who in privacy looks at porn will and does masterbate to your disbelief or not. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like I said before, I can only speak from my own experience. My H doesn't look at the nude pictures in secret or in private. Both of our computers are in the living room in front of the tv and I know when he's at those sites. Like I said before, often, I will go sit next to him and critique the pictures with him. My H and I work at the same place during the same hours and are home at the same time everyday and spend almost every waking and sleeping moment together. I know what he's doing and have no problem with it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough, it is a symptom of something else. But to suggest that a man turns to porn b/c he is not being satisfied by his W is a scape goat</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, so if a woman is not pleasing her husband sexually (denying him sex or using sex for reward or punishment) and a man needs to relieve himself, then it's ok to masterbate, just so long as there is no porn involved? What is the real issue here...men looking at pictures of nude women or men masterbating to pictures of nude women or men masterbating period....?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is a problem in our society how a lot of men view and see women as sex objects. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hate to tell you this, but many of the women who are viewed as sex symbols due to posing nude for various magazines, posed nude for just that reason. If women would stop taking off their clothes for the camera, the porn industry would dry up. How many women don't want to feel sexy? Why do women wear skimpy clothes? To look sexy and attract men! The sex drive is a MAJOR force in a man. I don't know how many different relationship books I've read that have said that continuously. If women would learn to understand that and learn to deal with it instead of trying to suppress it in the men, they would do a lot better in relationships (in my opinion of course).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most women don't look at male porn </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is another major difference between men and women that is well documented in science and psychology. Men are visual in nature. They look at beautiful women and get turned on. This is how God made them! Even gay men are visual...that's why you see sites and magazines for gay men. Women are more sensual. They use their imagination. That is why most women would prefer to read a sexy, descriptive romance novel to be turned on. Women close their eyes and focus on the feelings to have an orgasm (at least that's what I do). Women imagine themselves in sexy situations, being swept off their feet. That's the way God made us!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Men are perverts, women are not. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely not! Men are Men and Women are Women. Just because they are different, doesn't make one better than the other. And liking to look at naked women does not make a man a pervert, just as looking at naked men would not make a woman a pervert. If looking at pictures of naked women makes a man a pervert, then imagining herself with another man in a mental fantasy make a woman just as perverted.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In our society it is acceptable for the men to view porn, to go to titty bars (even for business lunches,etc), to pay hookers, but for women not </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've never heard that it wasn't acceptable for women to view porn, it's just not as available as what's out there for men. I've seen plenty of women watching porn films (seen a few myself!) And, I don't know where you're from, but where I'm at and where I grew up, there were several strip clubs for women where men stripped (Le Bare's and Chippendales are 2 nationally known clubs). Everytime I've been to those clubs, they were packed with women!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Nonetheless back to the point which is - if these men would concentrate on pleasing their wives and/or learn how to please their wives half as much as they concentrate on masterbating to porn then everyone should be happy - both H and W. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think many women need to concentrate on HELPING their men please them as well. I know a lot of women who expect their partner to 'please' them and get upset when they aren't able to. In most committed relationships, I think that the man really wants his partner/wife to be satisfied, and is upset when it doesn't happen. But the partner/wife does nothing to help him out! My husband didn't just 'know' what to do to please me when we first started having sex. I had to teach him what to do for me. I had to tell him where it felt good for me. If it felt better if he rubbed me side to side rather than up and down, I had to tell him. I had to suggest other things that I would like to try (toys and playing out fantasies for example). It all boils down to communication. If communication breaks down and both partners are frustrated and the wife has all but given up on sex, then sure, it's much easier to take care of his sexual desire himself.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NOTE: A lot of women don't have an orgasm every time they have sex...but the men do...why is that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can think of one word....NATURE! Sex's main function is for procreation. In order for conception to occur, a male must ejaculate his sperm into the female, but a female doesn't have to have an orgasm in order to procreate. Humans are the only species (and I've heard stories that dolphins may also do this) that has sex for pleasure. And just because a women doesn't have an orgasm, that doesn't mean it wasn't pleasurable. I've had sex with my husband plenty of times where I didn't feel like putting forth the effort to have an orgasm (even though I would have been energized by it), but it was still tremendously pleasurable and satisfying to me because of the intimate contact and the back rub I usually get instead of the orgasm <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He doesn't get an errection while looking at these pictures and he doesn't look at them and then all of a sudden rushes me upstairs for a quicky. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He doesn't get an erection? We can debate that, but why would he rush you upstairs for a quicky after staring at other naked women if he weren't aroused by it?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hate to tell you this, but many of the women who are viewed as sex symbols due to posing nude for various magazines, posed nude for just that reason. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Some do, that's their choice. That doesn't mean the rest of us want our husbands to become accustomed to viewing women as sexual objects.

Many others do it because they are unskilled at other labor and make more doing it (stripping, for instance) than they would at another job. I think you really should take a look on the internet at the research that has been done into the type of work and how sex workers are treated. It is rather enlightening.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Everytime I've been to those clubs, they were packed with women!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm against porn for either men or women; however, I must agree that many go to see male strippers. The evidence in porn being overwhelmingly for men is in the sheer numbers. I think you need to view the statistics on the number of strip shows for male audiences as opposed to the number designed for female audiences. The numbers are grossly disproportionate.

I have in the past used porn, as well. There used to be a site on the web for women that showed men. The last time I was there (admittedly a few years back) it had been revamped and was still a site featuring men, but was mostly for viewing by men.

Women just aren't as drawn to porn in the numbers that men are.

<small>[ December 31, 2003, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

dgmiss - And with an attitude like yours I can understand why you are either divorced, still single, or in marital conflict! Oops, there goes some guy spouting off again!

hurting Promise Keeper,

Let's try to keep things respectful.

Thanks,
Nokomis

Sorry - I can blameshift my comment onto the fact that I just had a Mountain Dew and a chocolate bar, but I won't. By the way, is it a disrespecful judgement if I based my comment on the contents of her post?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by *Takola*:
He doesn't get an erection? We can debate that, but why would he rush you upstairs for a quicky after staring at other naked women if he weren't aroused by it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My comment was that my husband DOESN'T do that. He never rushes me upstairs to have sex after looking at those pictures.

I have to get back to work now, but I'll try to comment on the rest of your post later.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hurting Promise Keeper:
<strong> Sorry - I can blameshift my comment onto the fact that I just had a Mountain Dew and a chocolate bar, but I won't. By the way, is it a disrespecful judgement if I based my comment on the contents of her post? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mr. hurting Promise Keeper,

I understand that you might have a strong opinion about this subject and seem to be on my side of this debate, but I agree with the moderator. Please keep the comments civil and not a personal attack. I enjoy an intellectual debate that is kept civil and where both sides of an argument has their say without name calling.

Thanks!

dgmiss - I would like to offer an apology to you for the comments I made on 12/31. I have prayed about this for 2 days and taken other's comments under consideration. Please forgive me. I truly hope and pray that you have a peaceful New Year. May the Lord's healing and comfort be with you. God bless!

John 16:33.

To all - my views/opinions are based on my own obviously "bad" experience going on right now in regards to porn, sex, intimacy, communication and satisfaction. Yes I am in counseling b/c I have gotten to the point where I am not going to take this crap any longer. I am tired of always sacrificing my own needs and now refuse to be the orafice of my H's. I am very willing to have sex with my H but it is not going to happen if he doesn't put forth the effort to please me. After trying to delicately tell someone (the male ego factor) that you need this or that, etc. and it just doesn't sink in - it is frustrating to no end. My H is endowed and maybe he thinks thats all there is to it???? Anyways, I do appreciate the intellectual debate and it is good to hear that some are more fortunate than others. But for me and the whole reason the topic was started is b/c porn should not replace the sexual intimacy found between two people (as expressed in Love Busters) of which my H is more intimate w/himself and his porn girlfriends than w/me. Call it hurt. Some people are takers and others are givers. When I have always done everything in my power to please him and have tended to all his needs - for him to deny me of the exact things he loves done to him (i.e.; bj)....the fact that I always go unsatisfied is unacceptable. I have often told my H that it is like playing a team sport such as soccer. Both teams are playing to win - after a while when one team always wins and the other always loses, it's no longer fun to play. I almost don't care whether he touches me or not. But I am a creation of his own doing / lack of doing. Don't think I started out this way.

dgmiss,

I am very sorry that you are going through this. I'm glad that you are in councelling for the problems you are facing. I hope that your husband is getting help as well. It seems that he has a deeper problem than just looking at porn. Looking at pictures of naked women (probably) did not cause these problems...it is just an outward sign of the problems that he already has on the inside. It must be very hard for you...trying to get some intimacy with your husband and finding that he'd rather be 'intimate' with himself and pictures. You are probably trying to pinpoint the problem and the porn is the easy and 'obvious' target. This is my totally unprofession, non-medical advice, but I think that focusing on the porn is a waste of your energy that could be spent more productively trying to find the 'real' problem between you and your husband.

My husband and I hope you can get to the bottom of this problem and send our good wishes your way.

i think longship makes a great point when she says focusing on the porn is probobly not going to help the real issue.....which i imagine is probably more related to self-doubt and a fear of intimacy.

that may sound like you just need to accept his porn use etc........but it is a more complex issue than that....and unfortunately, i think you may have to be the one to take the first step here......because it does not sound like he is anywhere near understanding how his
"independant behaviour" is affecting you and your feelings for him.


check out the emotional needs board....maybe do a search on pornography there......there have been some great discussions about it and intimacy etc. lately.i know there were many good posts on GetLoveBacks threads.....and she is in a similar situation than you.
hang in there and good luck.

<small>[ January 04, 2004, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

Hurting - I appreciate the apology. No offense taken.

All - thanks so much for the words of encouragement and I see what you all are saying about not focusing on the porn. That is a fresh way to look at it and to approach the problem from a different angle which is worth a try. I will check out all your recommendations and go to the other message boards, etc.