A brief rehash for anyone unfamiliar: D-Day was April 2000, have been in real strong Plan B since August. In May 2001, my husband and I started counseling together going to the same counselor my 9 year old sees. In helping my 9 year old he had to meet with my husband once alone. After that time the counselor said to me,"Why are you getting divorced? You're husband doesn't want a divorce...he's just not ready to come home yet". At the time I let it slide because there had been NO evidence that I had seen that seemed to indicate that (see previous posts). In the end of April after some terrible behavior on my husbands part I scheduled a meeting for myself with this same counselor just to see if there was any thing to what he had said. At the time I really thought this was my last gasp and the end was really right around the corner. The counselor said, "Well why don't I get the 2 of you in here just to talk, because not talking is bad for the children (I never explained Plan B to him). <P> So he calls my husband and sets up an appointment. The first time we go he asks us what we both want and K (my husband) says he wants to be able to talk,and I say I don't know what I want. The second time I again say I don't know and K says I want to work on the marriage. The 3rd time again - I don't know and for K he says, I'm glad we're talking. Then the counselor says OK it's time for you 2 to go out alone together. The next week we go out together for about an hour but keep it very light. <P> Last night was our 4th counseling session and I had been obsessing about it all week. What are we doing? Is this just so he can feel comfortable and avoid conflict? etc. etc. the advice I got here was immeasurable. Any way I decided my tactic was to go and ask why were we really there.....<P>SO MUCH FOR MY QUICK REHASH!!!<P> At first there was a lot of dead air. I wouldn't really talk because I wanted to hear my husband talk and see what he was going to say. So we sat there in awkward silence quite a few times. I was quiet, the counselor was quiet. K was looking at the floor. The counselor would ask a question and I would wait for K to answer first (something I never did before). Anyway... at some point we are (again) asked what we both want and I wait for K's answer. He basically gives a non- answer and then says that he's very confused. That was his mantra last summer when we did try to reconsile. One of the things I love about this counselor is that he doesn't back down. He pushed - confused about what??? Well, he thought we were getting a divorce but after seeing and talking to me over the last month now he's confused and feels like he's back where he was. Counselor pushes again - well how long should she wait until you make up your mind? K starts getting defensive. Co. then asks me same question - I feel like it's time someone takes a leap but my emotions get the best of me. I want to say something but I just start sobbing. I finally say what I've said all along, that I've wanted to save the marriage. That I've always loved K but that I needed to trust him again and it was difficult to do that since he worked with the OW and (to borrow CD's line, there is only room for 2 people in a marriage). Counselor says nothing could be clearer than that and we begin to talk about various problems in earnest. K says he isn't sure what he wants, he doesn't want to be where he's not trusted, he hates my family now (they said some pretty viscious things to him during this - but can you blame them?)and he doesn't see how we can go back? Counselor says that's what we're supposed to work on but if that's not what we're working on then maybe we shouldn't come in. We make an appointment for 2 weeks from now (son's birthday is on counseling day next week) and leave together (45 min goes quick!) outside we hug for a long time and I break it first and K says I'll call some time and we can go out together just the 2 of us. <P>Well??? Does he just want his cake and to eat it too? Is he coming out of the fog? Should it take this long? Does he just say what he thinks the people around him want him to say? I sensed it wasn't time to bring up the whole list CD made for me that was so accurate about what I really wanted. I also sense that this could take a long, long time. Anyone have any suggestions, feedback etc? I'd dearly love to hear it.<P> Thanks<BR><p>[This message has been edited by quakermom321 (edited June 07, 2001).]

Q, if my H had been the least bit indesicive, we would not still be married today, 5 years after D-day. I have to say, I admire you. ember

QM,<P>It sounds like a very uncomfortable counseling session. It worries me that your H was unwilling to say straight out what he wants, that he is still claiming "confusion". This must be soooo difficult for you. It seems like enough time has gone by, that he should have some idea what he wants.<P>Does your H still work with OW?? Do you think he's still having an affair?<P>Doesn't he realize that he has violated your trust and it takes time and actions to re-build it. Does he think you should just give it to him??<P>I am realizing my H is a major conflict avoider, it leaves me wondering about everything he is telling me....a lot of it is just saying what they think others want to hear.<P>Best wishes!

I know, I know ...what am I waiting around for? I guess it's stillhard for me to believe that the man I was married to for 23 years, adopted 4 children with and have loved for a long time did all this. And I still love him and hope that we could rebuild things. Is it possible? I really don't know.<BR> Kris

QM,<P>What you are waiting on is you family. This could take a long long time, but if there is any love or hope left hang on...it could be worth your while. It sounds to me that he may be just now coming out...maybe its no longer a fog, but a haze. Set a time limit that you will wait. I think two years is pretty standard, although for me it sounds like a long time. I guess only youwould know how long is too long.<BR>Stick with it a little while longer, it sounds as if you want this to happen deep down, or maybe not so deep.<BR>Love and Prayer<BR>bw

Hi again, just little ol' obsessive me...<P> Just came from my monthly medication management appointment with my psychiatrist. Still on the Zoloft but to a lesser dregree now.....anyway she has been giving me input all along and she said tonight after I told her the latest developments,"remember, your husband never really grew up! He's still a child" And I thought to myself, she's right in so many ways. The question is can he grow up??<P> Ember - I never thought I would be able to do this either. Everyone I know tells me to walk away. I don't want to be the next Mary Jane Buttafuco (does everyone know who she is or is that just a NY thing? She's the one where the OW shot her in the head, she survived, the OW went to jail, she stayed with her husband.And - they just got divorced recently!)Something makes me want to keep trying I don't know why. <P> Mojo7- My husband does still work with the OW. He says they don't live together and recently confessed that when he first moved out her parents(!!) let him stay with them for a while... so I think he's telling the truth but then again who knows? When he was asked at counseling yesterday did he still have relationsship with her he said not a physical one but they do still have a reltionship because now they share a child. I don't know what to think of that!! I don't think I want to handle her in my life yet. I just don't think it's the time to push that issue yet<P>BW - You are so right - I really do want this to happen. Where have you heard 2 years as a time passage? I've been thinking that what I remembered reading in the Harley's books was more like 6 months but this seems more like it could take 2 years. Can I wait that long? Is is possible for someone so weak to grow up? He's not weak in every area - believe me he has a lot of stregnths (amazingly enough his dedication as husband and a father was always one of his best qualities) <BR> Kris

to the top -

quakermom ... 6 months to 2 years is the timeframe that the Harleys indicate an affair will last after it has come to light. Withdrawal after an affair will vary depending upon a lot of things, including the length of time the affair was in progress all together, the type of affair it was (EA, PA or EA/PA) and the demeanor and behavior of the BS during the entire horrendous event. Of course, that is assuming that there is nothing tying them together at all. Your situation is going to be a little bit different becaus of the child.<P>I think your husband thought that your marriage was over, especially after you found out about the OC. When you went to Plan B, I think he probably thought that he would just "get over you" and get on with his life. And I think he found out that it wasn't so easy to do that - probably felt as if things were "unfinished" between you. I would bet anything that when this counseling thing began, he was still sure that he would find it easy to say "Nope, I'm done with my marriage." And now, since you've spent some time together again, he is very confused because he enjoyed being with you. Also, I would imagine that the guilt is eating him up again, contributing to the confusion he is feeling. After all, how COULD you ever forgive him? How can your family ever forgive him?<P>I am speaking to this from the Marriage Builders point of view, and as a BS (no OC, though) who would love to have the chance that you are getting now: Patience. If you love this man and want your marriage, it will take patience on your part. With the guilt he is undoubtedly feeling, he likely feels that there is no way you can possibly ever forgive him. It's a fatalistic view, but one that I've seen recovering WS's repeat over and over in my time here on MB (which is way longer than I ever wanted it to be). What can you do? My suggestion is that you need to decide if you are in or out, for better or worse. Yes, you might get hurt again... and I know what it feels like to have the same man betray you twice, believe me. But, as I read somewhere very recently, great accomplishments and great loves involve taking great risks. Only you can decide if you are up to the great risk of rebuilding your marriage with this man. If you decide it is worth the risk, then patience is your greatest ally. So much has come between you that it might take a while for it to feel comfortable and good again.<P>I hope that this helps somehow.<BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Terri - thank you for your insight. I've been reading your posts for a long time and they are always thoughtful and insightful. I know what I want. I want to repair my marriage. Because I was so blindsided by the whole thing I really have been mistrustful of anything that has gone on. And, Plan B while protecting you also leaves a lot up to the imagination (of which I have a very good one). There is the other child issue and the adoption issue. It is so very complicated.<P> I have been in counseling and seeing a psychiatrist since the whole thing blew open. They (both female) have been good at listening to me vent and rave but have really reinforced my negative emotions. The male that my 9 year old sees has a much different take and seems to be able to get to the crux of things better. My son sees him on Fridays and my husband and I see him on Wednesdays. Yesterday (Fri.) after my son had his session I had a little chat with him about my conflicted feelings. He says I'm too concentrated on if my husband can change and am not looking at myself and what do I want enough. What am I willing to do? What am I willing to put up with? How long do I feel comfortable waiting? AND he is very, very into this book "Passionate Marriage" (which I would recommend to anyone who has been married a while). <P> Now, the reason I have been willing to try and try is because I admit fully that it takes 2 people to have marriage problems. I am half way through the book and can see myself in it in many ways. I put my husband in the impossible position of having to please me, never being fully satisfied and then disrespecting him because he wasn't able to. He has said a number of time he felt like I would just never be pleased. I think I stopped recognizing what he did as life became more complicated with work and children and we just looked at ourselves as 2 martyrs. Also (big part of the book) I used him to relieve my anxieties and comfort myself instead of learning how to do it myself. <P> After talking to Jim (counselor) and reading your post I am more resoved to give this some time. You are right, what I wanted for a long time is just the opportunity to try to work things out. Now I have _ I have to just be patient. That's hard for me because I am such a "fixer". But for now - I'm in. Thanks.<BR> Kris<P>

I just read your thread and the responses. I thought I would add my thoughts if you do not mind. I think you need to decide what you want - your marriage or life without him. then commit to making your marriage work if that is what you want. Then tell him you want your marriage and him, does he want you? See if he can agree to work on your relationship and go for it. However, he has to sever the relationship with the OW as soon as he commits to making marriage work. He also needs to rebuild his family relationship and he cannot do that while he is involved with the OC. He must make a total commitment to you and your children. Once you all are back on track, trust has been rebuilt and you are a family again, then maybe, if THE FAMILY agrees the OC could be brought into the family. <BR> My self, I set a deadline that I did not share with him, and if he had not made the commitment to me and our children then I was going to file for divorce. Our situation actually was a limbo like state for 18 mos. I do not know if this is any help for you, but I hope some of it my be of benefit. Just stay strong in yourself and love yourself for you are a loveable person and right now you probably do not feel like you are. Good luck<BR>TG

TexalGirl - <BR> Glad to hear from you and always want your opinion (lost your email address though). I think what I've decided for now (with a LOT of help from you guys) is that I'm going to give things a chance, be patient and try the counseling together. I am afraid of getting hurt again but I realized today that even if it didn't work out I won't be in the position I was last Spring. I'm really a different person now. I've done so many things on my own this past year that I never would have tried prior. Taking care of my home and children solo, and being determined NOT to ask my husband for any help (other than child support) has increased my confidence level. In the past year I had to buy and install an new oilburner, washing machine and dryer. I've dealt with service men and even got a tool box for Christmas. <P>Also during the past year my oldest went to the hospital with a concussion, my 9 year old went to the emergency psychiatric unit (he's OK now but was having real trouble with his abandonment issues at the time). I've had to fight the schools for special education services for my youngest daughter (she's learning disabled) and it goes on and on. But I just realized today that if I have to go it alone it's not the worst thing in the world. I'm certainly cabable. If anything my kids and I have come through the fire, we are closer than ever and they are all doing remarkbly well (whew!!)<P>But!!! I have also come to a calmer place...I know what I want and am willing to try. It might take a while but I'll give it some time.<P>I guess I also have a secret fear of looking real foolish. Does anyone remember MaryJane Buttafuoco or is that just a NY thing? Anyway, her husband's teenaged lover shot her in the head, the bullet lodged there, she lived, the girlfriend went to jail, and she stayed with her husband. I remember how everyone vilified the wife (MaryJ) for staying with him. My family HATES my husband now (that issue probably deserves it's own post). But I'm willing to do the spade work if I get anywhere in my reconsilitaion attempts.<P>So for now Deal me in.....<P> Kris

Dear QM,<BR>I remember the Buttofucco story well. I watched them on Phil Donnahue. I really thoght she was an idiot for trusting him again. His demeanor was so arrogant. No sorrow to speak of was shown to his wife. That's how I saw it. THEN...now is so different.<P>Do you know the girl apologized to MJ and they are somewhat friends now? MJ said she understood what the girl went through. How's that for forgiveness?<P>You've been given very good advice here. I do remember not knowing if I wanted my H or not. I was numb toward him for a while. It was he who made this marriage whole again. By not only talking the talk but walking the walk.<P>Sorry to hear of your children's problems.<P>My 21 yr old was in emergency psych ward and admitted to hospital over this in mid January. I know the heartache of that. My H finally admitted his part in our sons illness. He wouldn't at first. Maybe a big case of denial huh?<P>I will keep praying for your peace however it will come to you.<P>love<BR>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....