I tried a second visit in our home with oc,only tried visit again to please h, (something he does'nt deserve)trying to get along with a 12 yr. old boy is hard under normal situation, but i tried, first like last time, he was pleassnt, but then all i got from oc was my mom does this or that, acting like the b****, was a saint finally i blew it i turned around and said i'm sorry to disappoint you but the only thing your mother could ever do is screw a married man and produce you, the whole room became silent and all eyes were on me, i just walked in the room gathered his things together and handed them to him and said his father could take him home now, my h started to say something and before he could even start i said we have another suitcase shall i back yours also, he left, took child straight home and came straight back, as kept telling me hes sorry and loves me, but i feel so bad for spesking to a child like this, should i call child and apologize or what

befar, I could not go on the way you do. You asked for opinions, this is mine. I feel that OC is not good for your marriage at the present time. I also feel a note of apology should be sent to OC, explaining, you do not feel it is in OC's best interest to be exposed to an unstable relationship, between yourself, and his biological father. Of course, your H would have to agree. Try to rebuild without this interference. ember

Not to pass judgement on you, as I do not know the whole story, all I have to say is that the OC is just that...a child. Like adults, sometimes they say things that they don't realize would hurt others. Maybe it's an insecurity that he has, where he has to mention his mother this and his mother that. Like she's competing with you. But always know that there's no competition there and that you are the better woman! You've been through alot and put up with alot. Hang in there and take a deep breath. Time will heal all wounds. If you feel strongly against the child, maybe it would be better if there was some time-off from the visits until you are ready again.<P>Good Luck...

Oh befar we were just talking about future scenarios like this last night. C is still a baby.<P>I will expect that someday if we do not get to see him for a while. If we do get him he will come to respect me for what I am. H said he won't tolerate anything else.<P>Do apologize. He may not accept it. It's natural to try to hurt you. He knows dad will never be there all the time and it has to hurt a young boy.<P>Not to say your hurt doesn't count. I would let your marriage take a breather until the 12 year old is told gently to clean up his act. By your H of course.<P>Just my opinion.<P>Love<BR>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Befar, I think you should aplogize to the child, you do not have a right to talk to a child that way. Any problems you have is with the OW not the boy. He is only 12 years old, he does not have the mental ability to uderstand the situation yet. It is obvious you do not have the ability to accept this child into your life right now. That is fine, but it is your H's child and if wishes to continue to see the child, it is his right. You don't have to like it or accept it but, you MUST conduct yourself as an adult and live with this situation. You don't have to accept this child into your home, but you should not prevent you H from seeing the child. As an X OW w/ a C, I can understand how difficult this is for you, but it is NOT the child's fault his father and mother did what they did. Do not punish the child for living, he has that right. It is only going to make you look bad if you continue to have this type of behavior towards the child, take it up w/ the mother or don't say anything. If you were my MM W and you had said that to my C, let's just say I would be sitting in jail for assult, battery, attempted murder etc. I would not tolerate anything less than complete respect for my C. Take the what the boy says with a grain of salt, he's 12. He was talking about his mother, the only person in this world who loves him unconditionally, the only one who has shown him she will stand by him, regardless of the situation around his birth. Being in an already unconfortable position, the boy was prob. looking to comfort his own insecurities by talking about his mother. It was not a reflection on you or who you are too him. If he was saying things about you that his mother had told him, then the mother is wrong. Explain to him that if his mother is talking bad about you that it is wrong and adult's shouldn't talk about adult things with children. His mother can have her own opinion about you but it is wrong to share that with him as it puts him in the position of defending her when she is not there, therefore you must defend yourself to him and that is not an adult way of acting. PLEASE apologize to the boy, it's not his fault, it was your H and OW's. <P>------------------<BR>RY<BR>"This child was not created out of love, but was born into love, that is all that matters."<P>[This message has been edited by Regretfully Yours (edited June 10, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Regretfully Yours (edited June 10, 2001).]

Dear befar,<P>Because of the age of the OC, your situation is more like trying to incorporate a stepchild into a marriage. I have been in that situation and know that it is not an easy thing.<P>I personally don't think that you need to apologize to the boy. Unlike the others, I do not feel that he is a child who has no idea of what the situation is like for all of you. But, I do think that, if you continue to see him, your H should have a talk with him and explain to him that you will do your best to deal with him but he has to also try to fit into your family.<P>But, it seems that you are not yet able to take this step and include this child into your lives. I would also take a breather for a while and concentrate on getting the unresolved feelings in the marriage straight before trying to introduce the child back into your lives.<P>Question - do you know how the child feels about this visitation? Is he reluctant, at this point in his life, to get to know his father and his father's family? Maybe you are all forcing a relationship that should not be forced?<P>It is unfortunate that you spoke that way to a child, but children have a remarkable way of bouncing back and quickly forgetting slights against them. The next time you see him just go out of your way to be nicer to him.<P>Keep your chin up, things will work out.<BR>love,<BR>heavenly

the child was raised by grandparents and an aunt, the only respect he has for his mother is because his grandparents have forced him to, he has been in a lot of trouble in past, kicked out of several schools and we just found this out after the incident i had with him by grandmother, she said i should not feel bad, because he thought it was very funny, she said he knew exactly what he was doing, she said this was normal behavior for him, she said she did not know what to do with him, we offered to take him, but she contacted his mother and she said no way.so we are stuck

befar,<BR> I think he most likly was trying to push your buttons kids at that age know what there doing. I have to agree with what heavenly has said. Your dealing with one of my worst nightmares as far as a very trobled oc to deal with we dont have any contact. I dread to think what we going to have show up on our doorstep. It may not have been the greatest thing to say but I know how some kids can really push your buttons.I sure am not going to tell you your wrong when you are at least trying to do something with this child thats more then I would be willing to do.The thing is they all eventually going to know what there mothers did as far as why there fathers were not involved in there lives. I dont think its going to be a good thing for them to learn at any age but its going to happen, and if the kids mothers have a problem with it it sure would have been nice if they would have thought of that before they get knocked up. I think it took alot of courage for you to come here with this. You are trying to do something that I will never have to deal with until oc grows up, so I really cant say what I would have done in your shoes.I do know its got to be very hard to take a child into your family that you had no input on growing up. Hope you guys can figure something out that will work for everyone. Good Luck with love flowerseed<p>[This message has been edited by flowerseed (edited June 10, 2001).]

Befar, I for one do not think you owe your husband anything. He created this mess,and his first obligation to an individual is you and your family. You do not mention if you have children of your own. Do you? I also do not agree with respectfully yours, who says you cannot stop H from seeing his own child. I do not agree. I think the reason you and child are having so much to deal with is because of just that-H and OW went out of your marriage and had a relationship that did not allow you to give any informed consent about their life, the creation of the child, etc. Now that you know of the OC's existence, I think you do have some say as to if or how much contact exists.It sounds as if contact for now imperils your marriage, and that supersedes all else.Sorry, that is how I feel and actually should take precadence.I am not sure if apology is necessary, but I think you need to decide if this is really what you want. I know for now I cannot imagine doing what you are doing- I am sure I would shout something out to child like you did , and how can that be good for anyone? Sometimes the kindest for all is no contact-cannot anyone see that?Having contact at all costs is not helpful for child either. And may not be good for marriage either, which also affects child.

I agree with what lsb has said also you do not have to allow contact with oc and your h if you cant do then you cant. This was kinda a odd statement coming from someone that had the father of her child sign papers that he would not pursue the oc.<BR> Also RY if the ow did not produce children with married men these children would not have to be put into situations where momma would have to something that would get herself throwed in jail. By the way I would love mine to come after me. I could deal out some well deserved self defence . Then she would have some company in jail wouldnt that be intersting. he he he. flowerseed

Dear Befar,<P>Flowerseed and lsb are 100% correct in my book -- the decision to see the OC must be a mutually accepted decision. The marriage must be strong enough to accept the intrusion and the H and W must decide, as a team, how the visits will be handled. <P>Flowerseed is also right about kids that age knowing how the push the right buttons to make you flip out. My step-children at age 12 were determined to break up my marriage to their dad. They did everything in their power to make me feel uncomfortable and to make me feel that their mother was soooo much better for their father than me.<P>The only thing that got me through (and they lived with us at the time) was that 1) I was determined that no matter what they did I would not let it get to me; and 2) my H and I truly communicated and made sure that we were always facing them as a team. When they would get out of line, my H would let them know clearly that while he loved them very much, they were not going to come between him and his wife.<P>Your situation is doubly hard because the young man is already troubled.<P>It is probably most important that you think about what you really want befar. This is a really difficult situation that you are facing so, of course, it will take a bit of time. But, if you feel that either you cannot invest that time or that the boy is just so undesirable at this point that you cannot learn to deal with him, then it may be best to have a heart to heart talk with your H and let him know how you feel.<P>But, what matters most of all is ensuring that your marriage is not put under more strain than you can handle.<P>love,<BR>heavenly<BR>

Befar, You do not owe your husband any apolgy, since it was your husband who created this mess. You are not ready to accept OC in your live yet, this is still very new to you. You should not feel that you have to accept OC in to your home to make your husband happy. Sometimes it's better not to have contact at all with oc. I can't accept OC in to my home. I have seen oc twice in court and all I can feel is anger, and resentment.

Befar,<P>I feel so very badly for you. I really do. Normally, I would say, don't apologize because I think this child does know exactly what he was doing. However, I think apologizing may be the key to breaking through that tough exterior of his and possibly setting a new path for him.<P>After reading what the grandmother said, I really feel that this child needs serious psychiatric help. He's working his way into a very bad life, one, if we can, we should try to help him avoid. I know it's easier said than done, but think about it. <P>Your husband is entitled to receive all of the school records, medical reports etc as well. If you plan on taking him to a psychiatrist, I would gather these papers to show behavior problems turning into patterns of bad behavior. If you don't know how to request these papers (and *no* the mother can't deny you these and neither can the school or doctors etc), let me know. <P>It's a long and very difficult road, Befar. I am sorry you have to go through this. <P>Love and care,<BR>CoR

My 2 cents: Any relationship that has a foundation of anger, lies, and deceit is a disaster waiting to happen. Speaking as the OW, I would never want my child to be something that has to be hidden. More often than not, if it's something you have to hide, then it can't be a good thing. Children can pick up on this. I wouldn't want my child to feel like a dirty secret, or to know that they are the cause of discord. Children do have a remarkable way of bouncing back, but they also tend to take on guilt and culpability for problems that are not of their doing. Their logic is a little off…due to their young age. Visitation/contact with OC should be by mutual agreement or not at all. I wholeheartedly disagree with RY's view on this. In order to provide a stable/strong and POSITIVE relationship to the OC, you and H need to solidify your marriage and be in agreement as to what you can realistically offer this child. Your marriage comes first. Trust and security in the stability of your marriage will transcend into the relationship you may try to forge with the OC. Then again, you may find that OC can never factor into the equation. It's all about what YOU can tolerate. Afterall, it's YOUR marriage we're talking about. You made a commitment to uphold your marriage…at all costs. If that means that H has to sacrifice a relationship with OC that, in all actuality should never have been, then so be it. At least, in that scenario, everyone is being honest and up front….no sucker punches. That's what I appreciate about the relationship that has been established between myself and MM's W. There are no surprises. She's honest and up front with me. I know where my child stands with them. It sure makes it a lot easier to cope and prepare for the future. I know that if they have the time and the space to heal, then the relationship they build with my son will be all the better for it. If there was no healing, then there would be anger and bitterness, which would have a detrimental impact on my child…it’s called the trickle effect, or as they say "sh*t rolls down hill". Focus on your marriage. OC will still be OC when/if you are ready to try to work on that relationship.

Obratti1, you make so much sense as an OW. I respect your thoughts. I too cannot tolerate contact with OC , right now she represents the worst that could happen to me Unlike you, my Ow knew H was married with kids prior to relationship, knew his kids, knew he would never marry her or leave me for her.nonetheless, she chose not to use birth control, got pregnant, and then told h she would raise child on own until 6 months after birth when she realized she could not economically afford it, then sought CS-which we pay huge amounts monthly. H tried to tell her how hard it would be to raise child alone, encouraged adoption when abortion was not an option for her, she refused. She will never be accepted in my home, with my kids, in our life. better for OW if she finds another partner to help parent child in future. OW has damaged my life purposefully and with no thought of what she has done to me or my kids. She will get nothing from me other than my rage and anger, And money I am obligated to pay through no fault of my own.She doesn't even care she is taking 1100 a month from me and my family for her selfish desire to have child at all costs. I pray she stays away,a nd I agree-the marriage must come first. If couple cannot agree to mutual contact, no go. It is not unlike when couples choose to have children or not-the one who does not want children wins.It is the same here.<p>[This message has been edited by lsb (edited June 29, 2001).]

Flowerseed,<BR>how did someone get the guy to sign over all rights <BR>our ow said that all along until we got the letter for cs<BR>which it has been 3 months since we went to court and we haven't heard anything else none is set <BR>did she finally say forget it??? <BR>or is it just taking longer racking up back support??<BR>i think it was when i showed up beside him at court<BR>amd when i fianlly got him to call her the night before and say whats the deal??<BR>he said if he has to pay then WE ( and she will have to accept that i would be just as much a part of its life as him , and am his step mommy) would be a part of his life <BR>and NO not "when she sees fit" as she says when the court sees fit<BR>she says it like we are not fit to keep him we have raised or are raising 3 boys<BR>WE are not the ones seen sitting at the bar pregnant with a drink in one hand and a cigarette in the other<BR>WE are not the one going around sleeping with people we dont know(at least not me) but neither of us (like her) having an incurable std and not warning those MANY MANY guys<P> i know when h went over there , a couple times??? <BR>he would talk to her about how i hurt him filing for divorce and him not being able to see our son so much and i guess the support<P>So it seems So convenient she gets pregnant on the pill with a rubber <BR>and tells him SHE would never keep that baby from him<BR>She didn't want any cs just wanted him to be a part of baby s life<BR>SHE would never put HER child through those court battles<P><BR>BUT since then and since I let him come back to me all we have heard from her is hearsay or letters from the prosecuting attorney <P>What the HELL?????<BR>did she want himand think she could get him by saying she owuld Never do what i did??<BR>then saw he loved me and was with me <BR>so hey why sould she be nice now??? <P><BR>I Honestly thought she just found him an attracxtive father because of the way he cared for our son<BR>I heard form so many people there were numerous other guys around the same time one (friend/exboyfriend ) was living there for a while<P>Even though nothing is going on now<BR>i know it could any day again unless he gets to sign over rights <BR>my friend says they wont let guys do that <BR>but if she never would have went after us in the first place she would ahve had all right sot herself as she claimed to want<BR>but now that the paternity test is done and the stupid thing was positive<P>i would have rather went on the rest of my life not knowing for sure than knowing for sure<BR>unless of course it owuld have been neg<P>Anyway, my point was, could WE do anything to give up rights???<BR>how come the women can give up babies , can lose rights if they do bad things<BR>but these men have no choice<BR>NOT THAT THEY ARE INNOCENT<BR>but its all up to the mothers and they can collect money from it

[QUOTE]Originally posted by never_be_same:<BR>[B]Flowerseed,<BR>how did someone get the guy to sign over all rights <BR> as far as I have ever been told a man can not give up his rights unless there is another man willing to adopt the child. i highly doubt any ow will allow the child to be legally adopted because they know they csn get remarried have a wonderful stepdaddy, the biologically father never has to see child but STill has to pay so why would they give up the money?<BR>

never be the same,<BR>It was regretfully yours that was saying this her h went to court with some paper to have om sign. <BR>she was bragging how she could still go after him for child support if she chooses. I'll see if I can bring it to the top. I dont think there is any way of getting out of the support unless ow was willing to not go after it. Dont think that will probly happen though. Yes it is bull that men have no choice is this only the ones that so freely spread there legs. I will never be able to understand how these woman come to be what they are. If I was to have done something so stupid as to screw a married man then I sure would have made dam sure I didnt get preg or if I did would have delt with it on my own. I guess some of us are a rare breed. I feel its up to me to take care of what goes on or in my body. Anyhow the topic was I hold in my hands this piece of paper I,ll see if I can find it. with love flowerseed<p>[This message has been edited by flowerseed (edited June 12, 2001).]

I brought it up to the top for you. I cant stand to read it so I'll have to leave it up to you to find anything in there. It makes me want to puke.<BR> with love flowerseed

i guess ui misunderstood flowerseed<BR>earlier in this post where you say its an odd comment coming from someone who had the man sign to agree not to come after oc<BR>i did read the one you are talking about<BR>but i didn't think it was funny either that she has the back up plan to go back after om money if marriage doesn't work out<BR>especially after denying him the child<BR>thats the kind of thinking that keeps me worried every day i go to the post office, every time the phone rings<BR>when our family is happy <BR>She could just Change her mind yet AGAIN<BR>sometimes i dont know if i can take that worry in the back of my head the rest of my life<BR>io worry about the money my children getting confused that child