Ok you guys. My H hasn't been to pick up OC for almost a month and a half. At first he was gung ho on every other weekend. Then I told him to get her on the weekends I had to work because I wanted my weekends off to be with my family. We have been working on our relationship and marriage and I felt that when we had OC we weren't afforded the time to appreciate one another in OUR family setting. He agreed and the first couple of weekends he got her while I was at work. <P>Now lately when I'm working he has every excuse in the book why he didn't go get her. Usually it's because he has somthing he promised to do with our son or one weekend he had a cold/cough and wasn't feeling up to it. Last weekend there wasn't even an excuse. He just didn't go. And I didn't ask.<P>Maybe taking care of all three kids at the same time is too much. But I doubt it. Our two are pretty self sufficient and don't require a ton of work.<P>I asked him the other day does he love her. He said yes, but it wasn't the same kind of love he feels for our kids. He also said that he just doesn't want her to come knocking on her door for money one day. Says he wants to have a relationship so she'll be comfortable if she chooses to be apart of our family. Says he wants to keep the door open and give her options.<P>So what I'm wondering, does it sound like his desire to see and be involved with OC is out of guilt? More and more I'm thinking so. <P>When I first agreed to visitation I felt that the desire in him to be a good dad to all of his children would be overwhelming and he would be a super dad to her just like he is to our kids. Now I'm not seeing that drive in him that I though I would. <P>He still calls and checks on her and dutifully drops of his womb payments.<P>When OW told him that OC was walking the other day and had been for almost a month. He seemed a little taken back, but mentioned that he couldn't imagine not being here for one of our children's milestones. I thought for sure his visitation efforts were going to spark back up after that. But they didn't.<P>Don't get me wrong. I'm just fine with whatever he decides. But my type personality needs definition. Is he or is he not going to be involved. I hate the greyness of it all.<P>And I know you all are going to say.... sit down and talk about it with him. But honestly, I don't think he's willing or ready to admit that he is doing this out of guilt. And if he really didn't want visitation anymore he'd never admit to it.<P>I guess if this continues through the end of the year I'll approach the subject, pointing out to him that he's probably doing more harm than good this way.<P>What are your thoughts??<P>------------------<BR>Zebra Baby ...<P>Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Z,<BR>I suspect in the near future, my H is going to do the same thing. We haven't gotten to the point yet of regular visitation. We are still in the testing stages. Once that's done, there will be another mediation session in August. His interest is waining. Somehow, I think he's tired of the drama and stress of it all. I honestly think men loose interest in being a part of a child's life when there's so much grief and anger attached.<BR>My H is in the denial stages of (the b doesn't look like me). Once the results are back, we'll see if his behavior changes. <P>You're right, talk to him to find out how he feels, BUT, prepare yourself for the answer. Could you live with his decision to not be involved? Could you honor that? <P>Your story almost confirms something for me that has been in the back of my mind for a while....this thing may take care of itself. If he looses interest, that may be the answer to all of my worries. (sound ugly but it's true)<P>Do you think he's dealt with his own guilt and self-loathing yet? That may be something he has to work through in order to continue with the visits. If he doesn't it may also impact more than just that one relationship???<P>

Zebra,<BR> Now this is just a wild guess I really dont know if I should get in on this one since we have no contact but here goes. Could it be just to much of a hassle if everytime he gets oc the ow causes problems. Did you not say she was hitting on him? I thought I also read recently that you said she was saying that he was sleeping with her still. Please set me straight if I mixed you up with someone else. Can you imagine how angry that would make you if doing everything you can to do things right and you have sleeze ball making up stories. It could be that he sees that her only goal is to spit you two up and is just sick of it and all the crap that you guys have to deal with just to see oc.<BR>I'm just guessing I really dont know. I know thats alot of the reason we choose not to have any contact is I just dont need the bull**** in our lifes. with love flowerseed

Zebra,<BR> Another thought just crossed my mind could your h be having second thoughts as to if this is even his child? I seen some web sites a while back that you can have dna test done they do the cheek swab thing, that was what I was talking about a while back when I said the ow wouldnt even have to know. If you want I try to find them just let me know. Just think you guys could be giving money away that you dont have to. with love flowerseed

Yes Flowerseed I think you verbalized some of my thoughts on the matter.<P>I'm thinking it's become more of a hassle than a pleasure. If he found it pleasurable he'd be picking her up all the time. <P>And I do know he gets super duper irritated every time she *****es that he hasn't picked OC up or whining about need more money on top of the womb payments we make monthly. So that probably is getting on his nerves.<P>And she's so stupid she thinks that whining is going to get results from H. I learned a long time ago, the more you ***** the harder he pulls away and does the exact opposite of what you want. Dumb girl. If she was smart she'd never let out a peep about her dissatisfaction with anything he does. It's all in presentation.<P>Quick sidebar. My H used to put the forks with the prongs facing down in the dishwasher. It used to drive me crazy that all my forks were twisted up. Instead of telling or asking him to put them handle down, I asked him one day while we were eating what he thought could be causing the prongs to get so bent up. He was tickled that he came up with the reason.... and the solution. So OW, take a lesson, there's more than one way to skin a cat! <P>As for her hitting on him, he probably wouldn't tell me again. Not after the angry reaction I had towards her last time. Just another example of why I must continue to work on my reactions to his disclosure.<P>I am very cofident that he would again turn her down. His discust for her is obvious to me. And he verbalizes how her appearance grosses him out now. Amazing how clear he sees now! <P>And yes, we haven't had DNA. But at this point financially it's impossible. We are having the hardest time financially that we've had our entire marriage. The CS is just $150/month and even if we weren't paying it, it wouldn't make a dent in what we need to get caught up. <P>One good note is that H has a lead on a very lucaritive job. A friend of ours is referring him. I'll keep you guys posted. Please say a small prayer for us. We really need to get my H off of the road. (He's a courier and spending $150/week on gas alone.)<P>We don't object to DNA. In fact we want it desperately. And will do it without her knowledge. That way if it is his, she can't use it against us. We would just continue to pay our itty bitty support until she gets dissatified enough to take us to court. The judge would probably not make us pay back support since she is accepting the amount we are giving her.<P>As for her recently saying she was sleeping with him is sorrta incorrect. She kicked her brother out of her house and he retaliated by telling her live in boyfriend that she was sleeping with H and other men. As far as I'm concerned it's just hearsay unless I see something more substantial. So far no signs. And believe me.... I've been looking.<P>Matthew, yes to your comments too. He has not yet dealt completely with his self loathing and regrets. My H has been conditioned since childhood to hold his emotions in. I know in the future they will all explode on him. I am prepared to deal with that when it happens. <P>And yes, I can deal with whatever decision he makes regarding this child. I have even told him if we were ever in the position to have to take oc into our full custody I would support his decision. And if he decided to drop visitation tomorrow, I would support that one as well. <P>I'm a firm believer in it's his child and he should make the major decisions on his involvement or not. I would expect the same if I was in his shoes.<P>And don't you worry about sounding ugly. I've had the same thoughts. Maybe he'll loose intrest and this will all fix itself. You are not alone. Believe me, if it was my choice, I would say let her deal with her choices. But it's not my choice, it's his.<P>More thoughts please. <P><P>------------------<BR>Zebra Baby ...<P>Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Zebra,<BR> Our h sound like they have the same personalitys thats to funny about the forks. I have to do the same type of things.<BR> What I meant about ow was if she is spreading rumors around (the ow live in a fairy land it seems ) that would have to make h very angery. He might be keeping it to himself not wanting to cause troble and just figures by not being involved she cant make up stories.<BR> Maybe someone will be along soon that can come up with more ideas. with love flowerseed

I agree flowerseed. He probably is very tired of the drama that goes with OW/OC. I know I am!<P>I think the majority of the WS'es have very similar personality types. I wish I'd have known that personality type flag when I met him! I probably would have run and not looked back. But no regrets, we have had some wonderful years together.... and he gave me the two most beautiful children in the whole wide world. (just a little biased)<P>------------------<BR>Zebra Baby ...<P>Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

I wonder if that's gonna happen here Zebrababy.<P>We spent the weekend at the pool out back w/friends and family. Cooked out and enjoyed the first warm days here.<BR>Ow is in Fla. H said he's sick of her stuff. If she makes things too hard or doesn't follow our agreement he will just go on w/life. No more fighting. He wants peace if it includes baby or not. Also said he'd never want custody as he feels the baby is just like one of the neighbor kids in the pool.<P>He actually said if C was here and older he'd never feel the same about him as our son. He feels bad about that but said until baby was born he fantasized about the relationship and it doesn't feel as he thought it would.<P>Amazing, isn't it?<P>Oh well time will tell what happens I guess.<P>Love<BR>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Zebra,<BR> You made me laugh so hard it probly wouldnt have did you any good to run. I did run and mine still somehow caught me. with love flowerseed

Gem, I think your husband is probably a lot like mine and flowerseeds. <P>They are the type men who want only what we tell them they can't have or do. You husband was sooooooo stongly for having OC in his life. The very minute you stopped fighting it... tadaaaa.... the desire is a small flicker ready to be blown out.<P>I feel like my H is coming to that same reality. Now that I don't fight it anymore combined with the reality of it being so much of a hassle ..... tadaaa.... it's not such an overwhelming desire anymore. <P>I can only hope it contines on this path. And if not... I'll deal with that too. This whole nightmare has made me a stronger person... I can deal with whatever life throws my way.<P><P>------------------<BR>Zebra Baby ...<P>Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Zebra<P>Your strength is an inspiration! "I can deal with whatever life throws my way." I can't wait until I feel that way!!<P>Womb payments!! First time I heard that one, hehehe....

Dear Zebra, Flowerseed and Gem,<P>Is there room for one more in your H's club? Then add mine -- he only seemed to want OC as long as he thought he could not have her. Now, he shows no sign of missing seeing her at all. Out of MY guilt, I have brought it up to him and he said the same thing that was mentioned by some of you -- he could never feel the same about her as he does about our children.<P>Like Matthew said, he seems to have simply lost interest. In recent talks that we have had, he has admitted that he has been completely fueled by guilt -- not so much over the child as over what he believes he did to the OW by leaving her to raise a child alone. But he has also shown a lot of anger towards the OW lately (something he has never done before) and admitted that he believes she trapped him to break up our marriage and that if she was truly a good person she would not have had the OC or would have given her up for adoption. Hmmm? I didn't know what to make of it -- but it was music to my ears.<P>Like you Zebra, I am just watching to see where it goes. But for now, it looks like the problem has somewhat solved itself because he does not seem to miss involvement with the OC. Perhaps the drama and the whining (do they all go to a school or something?) finally go to be too much for him. Especially when he had a wonderful, sexy, non-complaining woman at home <P>Whatever it is, I say let it go on ...<P>love,<BR>heavenly

So heavenly, what was your secret to getting your H to admit all of this? Refresh my memory please, How long have you been in recovery since d-day? How old is OC? and how much contact have you guys had?<P>I know my H's state of mind right now and he wouldn't admit to jack. Especially if I suggest it. That would be to much like admiting he was wrong. And we know that wouldn't fly!<P>Hey, I ditto that thought about the non-nagging sexy wife at home. That's meeeee toooooo!<BR><P>------------------<BR>Zebra Baby ...<P>Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Hi Zebrababy - I agree with the others. I think the drama is draining. And I would be secretly happy. My greatest wish would be that the OW would get on with their life, meet someone new, move etc. Wouldn't that be wonderful? I wonder if your husband doesn't really feel bonded with this child and has acted out of guilt and obligation. Without you there to impress it isn't as important? I really don't know but if I ever get to that scenario I'm going to hope my H. begins to loose interest also. Keep up the good work!!<BR> Kris

Hi Guys,<BR>Now don't get me wrong...H still worries about his son but not how I thought he would. The very fact that he would not see baby if she won't agree to our terms is amazing to me compared to how I thought he felt! He does want me and our life. He's such a happy camper now. The guy I married. We share everything once again.<P>I know he's morbidly sorry for his betrayal. He can't say "thankyou" for giving him his life back enough!<P>love<BR>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

I was being brillrent right from the start and didnt even know it. When we got served with the paternity papers, I was all for taking oc right away from her. H had already figured out what a skank she was and didnt want her involved in our lives. So I didnt have to suffer with the issue very long. He also had figured out he had wonderful, sexy, non-complaining woman at home, arent they just the luckiest men on earth. with love flowerseed

flowerseed,<P>i wish i had your sixth sense back then. LOL. not me, I struggled with it from day one. Now I don't give a damn one way or another and he's letting his tight grip loose. I hope it's not to late for him to change his mind!<P><P>------------------<BR>Zebra Baby ...<P>Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Hi all,<P>We are in a visitation hiatus right now, too. Mostly because H got tired of the OW's hysterics. I think that he too, was just sick of the drama. At first he seemed to think that I was being unreasonable in my rule that they can't see each other alone (H and OW), not even for 5 minutes. With a 7-year history and multiple break-ups and reunions, they have some sort of sick attraction for each other that I am not sure is over. Now he says that he sees that he and I were behaving very reasonably in all of this and that she was the one who was out of control.<P>Mrs. Job

What shall we name this H club? Infidelity Anonymous...anyway, H is the same here. Runs away from any sort of conflict. I almost feel like this is something he should not run away from. Sure it would make both our lives easier, but he needs to be held responsible for only thinking of himself at the time. He needs to be reminded everyday that there are serious consequences to all our choices, good and bad. H needs to think about others now....just a thought.