Hello to all,<P> I need an emotional boost or cybertherapy or SOMETHING!! My husband took my oldest somewhere during the day. We were then supossed to have a "date" and then go to marriage counseling together. He has been feeling sick. He said yesterday could we skip the counseling because he was just diagnosed with asmatic bronchitis but we could still go out for a while together. I said sure because I know he had been feeling crummy and was wheezing a little.<P> O.K this is not really about that other than I feel like I'm doing a lot of psychological work to get us somewhere and he's just coming along for the ride. That's always been our style and we should be working to change that. Anyway I'm reading "Passionate Marriage" (highly recommended) and a couple's story struck me. A woman was relating how she finally realized her husband never choose her. He married her etc. but really (see the similiarities) was just along for the ride. Well this really struck me. Because now I feel that I've CHOSEN my husband in spite of his affair and OC. but he has yet to choose me!!! <P>I know everyone counsels patience (Terri I hope you see this and respond) and I am having an incredible amount of patience FOR ME! But last night as we were parting I asked could I give him a hug and we hugged briefly. I have initated all physical contact (which isn't much, a hug, a stroke on the forearm.) and I feel him withdraw when I do. AARRGG!!! Then when he was leaving I just stood there waiting (and leaning forward a little) and he gave me a quick kiss on the cheek.<P> I guess I feel like I want more and I want him to choose me!!<BR> Kris<p>[This message has been edited by quakermom321 (edited June 21, 2001).]

I wrote this post this morning and now have some time to add to it. I hope you guys can help me. I know we all have our ups and downs. Each step is a process.<P> I guess what I am feeling is my continued sense of amivilence. Now, I realize that setting a deadline that my husand knows about will be counter productive because he doesn't respond well to pressure. In my own mind I set a deadline of November. That will be 6 months since we started marriage counseling and I should have an idea by then. Part of the problem is that things move so achingly slooooooow. I am a "fixer' a "doer". We have counseling once a week. So far it has been cancelled 2x (once by therapist and once by husband)So half a month can go by before we speak again. We have gone out alone 2 times but I am reluctant to bring up any past issues on those so-called dates because we are trying to reconnect and I'd rather bring them up in counseling where the therapist can be the "voice of reason".<P> Logically, I know I should just play the scenario out. If we do get back together we have to change our whole dynamic and that will take a long time with an excellent therapist (luckily we've got that). If we don't get back together I will certainly have tried everything and perhaps it will give me some closure.<P>The problem is I am now off for the summer (more time to obsess) and summer is my husband's very busy time at work. When work is busy he can't seem to concentrate on anything else to a great degree. It's like the work takes it out of him. I want resolution, problem solving , PHYSICAL AFFECTION!!! I want to give an ultimatum and I know intellectually it is the wrong thing to do. Thanks for letting me vent. I feel so conflicted and ambivilent. Does he have any idea what it feels like to give someone the great gift of forgivness and then have them say they are not really sure what they want? It is so hurtful and how can he not realize it??<BR> Kris

Kris,<P>Are you my twin sister.<P>Ok, I don't post much about the underlying problems in my marriage. It's really soooo complex that I tire of rehashing it. But lemme give you a quick senario.<P>H and I dated 1.5 years before I got pregnant. We both agreed that marriage because of a child was not in anyone's best interest. After long and hard thought I decided to keep the baby. My mother was a basket case and even had "words" with my H about fathering a [censored]. About 5 months into my pregnancy he asked me to move in with him. I think he was getting sick of us transporting ourselves back and forth every night. A month later he asked me to marry him. We married 3 months after my son was born. <P>I'm going to leave out all the nasty details of what happened between then and now, except that we had another child thinking it would bring us closer together. Big mistake. It only made my H feel more obligated to stay in our marriage.<P>Anyway, now that we have cleared the smoke with the OW/OC we are addressing our marital issues that caused this whole mess. It seems that H loved me when he proposed, but wasn't in love with me. He loved the fact that I was carrying his child. Loved me as a person, but never had that "high" of being in love and saying to himself... this is the one. He's been harboring these feelings for five years now. And finally they are coming to the surface.<P>So, what I'm trying to say is I feel your pain. Here I am, madly in love with my husband. Unconditional love that allows me to forgive the most heinous act. And he's telling me he felt like he never choose me. How could any person who has a person so willing to give so much of themselves, utter such words. It still perplexes me.<P>So now what are we doing to address this. You wouldn't believe the extremes he's come up with. First we talked about him moving to the basement and try dating each other. Lately though, he's seriously put out that he'd like to get divorced and start all over with each other. <P>I can't even put into words how I feel. I really don't know. On one hand I'm grateful and welcome the divorce. It's like what a load off of my back. No OW/OC, no thoughts of him being with someone else, no sadness, no fear. But on the other hand I fear I will slip deeper into an abyiss wondering if he's with her or someone else, sad that he isn't in love with me and left me.<P>I started Wellbutrin three days ago. And look forward to it's effects. I told H I really don't want to address this again until I start feeling this drug. I know I can't deal with it right now.<P>I'm soooooo torn. I know my husband loves me and appreciates what we are together and what we could be. But I also think he's selfish and thinking of himself and searching for a "high" of being in love. I think that he got that high with his affair and hopes he can get it with me. But I think his concept of feeling trapped into this marriage won't allow him to fall in love with me the way he invisions.<P>Am I thoroughly confusing you?<P>I guess all I can say, is I feel you. And I'm glad you had the courage to start this thread. Many a nights I've wanted to post about what was going on here, but didn't think anyone here could relate. <P>Sisters In Limbo Wanting More,<BR>Zebra<P>------------------<BR>Zebra Baby ...<P>Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Hey Zebrababy<P> hey sister - I hear you!!! I am so conflicted right now. My husband and I met when we were 19 and 21. We met in March, moved in together in April and got married in July!!! Talk about a whirlwind! Why did we get married? My parents were so upset that we were living together that they said, "Why don't you just get married?" and we said, "uh..... O.K."<BR> We really were very happy together for many years. However, it was like being in college aand living with a pal who was also your spouse. The sex was great and spontaneous, we had great parties, were going to college and were very happy together. After I started teaching I got the yearning to have children. Now 10 years had gone by and I was starting to grow up. With no luck getting pregnant and loads of fertility tests we spent the next 10 years adopting our children. In retrospect these were all things I wanted and my husband just went along with. After adopting the kids we were financially tight, the kids were tougher than we realized it would be and we started to have a lot of stress which we each handled in the wrong way. I expected my husband to fix everything (that little girl Cinderella rescue fantasy) and he did what ever I asked... but was smoldering underneath. Hence, an affair with a younger, immature girl who makes him feel like a big man.<P> Now where are we? I have been on my own almost a year. It hasn't been easy but it is getting better. I have gained a lot of confidence and self-respect for handling the things I 've handled on my own. I am doing fine financially, have great friends, a good job etc. <P> BUT I still love my husband. AND I really don't believe in divorce!! BUT I don't know if I want to deal with the OC named after him (first and last name the same as husbands and a JR. to boot).<P> I have a hard time with the fact that he still has not thrown himself at my feet and begged forgiveness. I don't understand why he wants to go to counseling and have the occaisional date because he seems ambivelent also. Can he not just let go? Is he such a conflict avoider that he can't **** or get off the pot as they say? I don't know... I don't know... I don't know!!!! <P> If only he would give me some indication. And I know how he thinks, he would say going to therapy and going out together is showing his attempts at reconnecting. I need so much more!!! But am I asking of him what he is not capable of giving right now? Am I just trying to put him into a mold of how I think he should be acting? <P> Truthfully, if he would just make one small move physically I would feel so much better. It doesn't have to be sex (though that would be wonderful) but initiating a hug or kiss would make me feel better. BUT in our marriage I was almost always the initatior. Which is ironic because one of the things he complained about in therapy was not getting enough sex. That's pretty funny from a man who rarely initiates. <P>I know I'm rambling at this point. The counselor told me that I have to decide what I want to put up with and what is acceptable to me. He said I was too conscious of hoping HE could change HIS behavior rather than deciding if I wanted to be involved with his behavior. That doesn't mean things can't change but someone is very unlikely to change their very basic essence and at his best my husband is a good loving, hard working, passive, conflict avoiding people pleaser. AARRGG!!!<P> So I hear you and I'm glad we can offer some solace to each other. Men are just so.... sometimes <BR> <P> Now I've been coming to terms with the fact that I can survive very nicely on my owwn. And I have also been listening to him and he is very engrossed in his job and the community (He works in the Hamptons _ I don't know if you've heard of it but it is NY's answer to Beverly Hills) that he works in. he gets an ego rush from it. He still works with the OW. I can actually see him having difficulty leaving that job because it gives him such self-definition. But how can I ever feel secure and I guess I feel like I need him to prove his committment.<P>Well, I know I've been rambling. Part of me wants to say to him at our next counseling meeting that I know what I want and am ready to go on without him but he needs to make some committment. The logical, intellectual part says we just started counseling really after a real messed up year and if I really want this I'll have PATIENCE and give this some time. I did set a deadline in my head of Novemeber. But the compulsive/fixer side of me has great difficulty with this. Well this has been a growth and learniing experience if nothing else.<P>I'm glad someone understands about not feeling "chosen" (I don't think that's too much to expect. Thanks for listening to my rambling. I look forward to continuing our conversation.<BR> Kris<p>[This message has been edited by quakermom321 (edited June 22, 2001).]

Zbaby - I forgot to add... my son takes Wellbutrin and I've seen it's positive effects as an anti-depressant. I take Zoloft myself.<BR> Also why do men think they need this fantasy adreline rush to be in love? Let them take up sky diving for God's sake!!!! It is the part of growing up that they seem to resist so much. That is why I am glad I did the Harley's Plan B for 10 months, it let my husband see what life could be like. I do agree with that concept, it's just very difficult and you have to be very strong. Well I've got to get the kids ready. <BR> It's the last day of school for them and myself!!!! Summer vacation here we come!!!<BR> Kris

QuakerMom and ZebraBaby,<P>I feel so inept here. I don't know what to say nor how to make things any better for you both. Zebra, since you were an experienced MB on this board, and you always sounded so calm and pulled-together, I just assumed that things were OK for you, better than OK.<P>I had wild and passionate before I met my husband--I always got burned. I chose him because I loved him but also because I saw calm, steady, dedicated. For me, the wild, crazy love came right after the wedding day. I think that before that I had been afraid to let myself feel too much for him thinking that it might end (as all other relationships had done).<P>I think that we both also expected love to change from the endorpin rush to the married, still loving, committed, mature kind of thing (which it has and we are both happy with).<P>When I first learned of his A, I was jealous that he once more got that experience of the "rush." I wanted the thrill of a new lover, but with none of the guilt that surely most come with an A.<P>MJ

Quakermom, In out house it was realising that "being in love" is a rush that must end at some time. But, when it does it should be replaced with "real love". The love of a couple truly committed to each other and their family of each other or a family with children. That is true love. <BR>Has he never heard "Love is a choice"? That is what a friend told me.<BR> My H told me during his "crazytime" that he "loved" me but he was not "in love with me". I was dumbfounded. Being "in love" is like being on a drug, you cannont live on that high all of your lives. You have to come down to reality. Our counselor helped him put that in perspective.<BR> I must admit that while trying to get positive time together, even now, I feel that we still a few issues to resolve concerning the OC. He wants that whole situation to go away, it is like it never happend. That's great, but I truly believe we will rue the day he chose to totally ignore the existence of the OC when she shows up at our door one day. <BR>You have teenage sons, how have they dealt with this? How would thay react if met OC and learned that OC was 4 mos younger, at 13 - 18 They know where babies come from, I worry how my son will feel when this slaps him in the face and he is unprepared for this.<BR> Sorry, I drifted into my concerns. Sounds so familiar, he wants sex, but wants you to initiate. My H never moved out, I told him as long as he slept in my bed he would have sex with me. I did initiate it. At that time I felt it was sex, because I felt he was still emotionally entangled with the OW. It was to my advantage that OW lived 6-8 hours away from us.<BR> I also made it plain that loved him, but I was not always going to be there if he didn't get off the fence. The emotional toll this took caused me to lose weight. We went out and a couple of times other men flirted with me. that was an eye opener for him.<BR> Hang in there and try to get the counselor gets ya'll back on track. Don' let him, your H cop out on the counseling sessions.<BR>TG

Hi all,<P>While I truly do think my h "chose" me in the beginning, I have wondered time and again about his motivations for doing so. As such, I can relate to what you are saying somewhat. When we met, my h was living a terribly hard life. His emotionally abusive parents had abandoned him previously, and even then, when he was living with them again, they wouldn't even let him eat with the family. Told him not to come home until after they were all in bed because they didn't want to look at him. It had been that way since his early childhood. When we met, he had just turned 18 and had a crappy job, no car, no hope. He seriously had no possessions - nothing to call his own. Not even the little things we all have as teenagers: posters, radio, etc. He didn't even have enough clothing. (I didn't know all of this at the time, he was very adept at "covering"). So when I entered his life and fell madly in love with him, it opened all kind of new doors for him. For the first time ever, he had somebody thinking he had "potential" to be great. I definitely didn't have a lot of money, but I was in college, had a car, had a real future. So different from the trashy girls he grew up around: whoring around, collecting their welfare checks and dying a slow death from inactivity and lack of ambition. In a way, our situation was like the classic "Handsome prince rescues poor but loveable scullery maid from a life of humiliation and drudgery" - Just in reverse. So I have often struggled with wondering if he chose me because he was in love with me, or because he was in love with me or was he just in love with the idea that somebody loved him.<P>I can also identify with how hard it is to deal with somebody who is addicted to the adreneline rush and ego boost of an affair type situation. When ow came along, during a time when I had essentially stopped providing h with the constant ego boosts that he so desperately craved, he became absolutely addicted to it. She flattered him, stoked his ego. She embodied everything that I was against in life. Truly the anti-cd. Suddenly the emotional and financial stability he enjoyed with me paled in comparison to the "rush" of sneaking around to have illicit sex. He got to love the "highs" of living ow's on-the-edge lifestyle. Drinking hard one night, hiding from the law the next. Having sex in the storage room at work, making secret phone calls to each other when I was in the next room. Blowing your whole paycheck in one day on stupid things. Having everybody at work thinking "you the man" because you've got a floozy on the side. You don't get that kind of excitement when you work hard every day and come home to your family every night. There's nothing glamorous about changing diapers and washing dishes. Ow's devil-may-care attitude just sucked him right in.<P>It's a very tough thing to compete with. <P>I was very fortunate in that h finally woke up to the fact that cheap thrills are just that: cheap. when it came down to the final minutes, h did realize that what he wanted was me. That he didn't really want to live hard and die young. that he wanted to experience thrills that lasted a life time: watching our sons grow up, waking up next to the person you love, being able to have the flu and knowing your spouse will love you even when you smell like vomit and look like death warmed over.<P>I don't know what made my h change his perspective...maybe it was just that he knew I had finally come to the end of my rope, and that it was getting to the point where I really was going to move on without him. I guess he figured out that he didn't have much time left before he'd lose us forever.<P>I guess that I dont have any real advice, just wanted to say "been there, done that." Also to tell you that people can "recover" from this type of addiction. My husband is so happy now. The affair ended up to be the catalyst that would change him into a man that is wonderful beyond my wildest dreams. He's a better husband and father now than I ever thought would be possible.<P>I will pray that your h's wake up and realize that the small things in life bring joy that lasts forever, and that the rush of "new love" may indeed be powerful, but it is so fleeting and temporary.<P>-cd<BR>(By the way, zebra, I haven't had a chance to email you back in depth the way I want to...will get to it as soon as I get caught up on a few things here.)

Oh CD, I thought you forgot about me! No really. I know you've got a lot going on in your life. No rush. I welcome your thoughts on your time.<P>Now, for the issue at hand. It's so nice to hear that others feel similar in this issue. I never would have guessed that my husband would choose to marry me and then later feel like he didn't choose me. It's such a hard concept for me to emphasize with.<P>And Kris, your "...get off the pot" saying is a regular chat with me in this house. I swear I wish he'd just up and leave if that's what he wants or committ himself 100%. Urrrrrrrrrrr it's sooooooooo frustrating. I would rather deal with him choosing to leave and being gone than wait around for the next "bout".<P>Mrs. Job, I am sorrta psychotic. Not really but when I have good days I can conquer the world, but boy when I slip into a slump, I'm a wreck. It's like when my H is showing me he's "in it to win it" I'm on an emotional charge. But when he's being wishy washy, or comes to me with some cowdung I fall hard and fast. I hate having my emotions dependant on his behavior. I feel like a slave to his will when I'm like this. That's why I'm hoping the Wellbutrin will help me see clearly past all the **** and start "feeling" for myself.<P>Kris, Someone told me Zoloft has sexual side effects. True?<P>I know my husband is very dependant on having his ego stroked. He is extremely good looking, tall, excellent build, bald and broad sholders, and gorgeous hazel eyes. When we started dating all his friends questioned him saying I wasn't his type. Because I wasn't a model or exotic dancer. Women flirt with him ALL the time. In front of me even. Every day he goes in and out of office and the receptionist are throwing themselves at him, wedding ring and all. I've seen it first hand and it's discusting. But realizing this I have made tremendous efforts to compliment him and give him some of that recognition he's accustomed to. But that love high thing. I don't think he's even conscious of his desire to aquire and maintain it. <P>It's really too bad.<P>Ok, I'll write more later, I got a meeting at my job.<P><P>------------------<BR>Zebra Baby ...<P>Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

hello again,<P> We have such similiar experiences I wonder if this is a personality profile of an adulterer. My husband was always the "invisible" child. His mother would say frequently that when she had him she was so unhappy and she was too old to have children (she was 35, boy have things changed). She will say in front of anyone that his older brother is her favorite. Similiar to you CD, in a way I was the rescuer. I come from an upper class background (which I was rebelling against at the time) and he did not. His family had moved away his last year of high school (talk about feeling abandoned) and he was lonely. And I think I was the first girl he went out with that unashamedly liked sex and had very little inhibitions.<BR> Brenda, My husband will agree with all those grown up things about love and hard work and I also heard, "I love you but I'm not in love with you" (my therapist says that's code for I want to screw around!!) He says those things but I am just learning after many, many years that what he says is not always what he really thinks. He also thinks it's a lot of work to have 4 kids (duh!) and he WISHES he could have more fun. So right now he pays rent to an elderly widower friend, works, goes out with friends to watch basketball, takes the kids out like a hero, babysits for the OC and feels like a hero for helping her out. And thinks (I'm just guessing but it's a pretty educated guess) that HE IS working on things by going to counseling!!! AAARRRGGGHHH!!!<P>Zebrababy - the Zoloft has had no sexual side effects that I can see but I'm not getting much action as it is. But it certainly hasn't effected my desire. I miss that part of married life greatly. It did help me from crying about 12 hours a day in that post-traumatic stress state.<BR> Also, the description you gave about having your emotions linked to his feelings reminds me so much of what I'm reading right now (do hope I stop sounding like a broken record).. You have to know who you are, be able to validate yourself, soothe yourself when anxious for true emotional committment. Easier said then done. <P>See, that's part of the problem I'm becoming more self aware and want him to take the journey with me so we can rebuild. Is he truly capabale? I don't know. I asked this privately of our counselor and he said he thought he was. Our next counseling session is next Friday (this week's was cancelled) <P> I am debating saying very calmly, "I've made it clear what I want. Now I'll be clear about what I need at this point (I'm still going to leave out OC and OW at this point ...it's not the time yet) I need to feel that you are remorseful for the pain you've put me through - I won't deny your pain but please acknowledge mine. Also, I made it clear that I've chosen you (for the time being) and I need to feel that you want to choose me. If you can't do these things right now I'm still willing to come to counseling, but I am also deciding for myself what I want out of life and what I'm willing to put up with."<P> Well, what do you think?<P> The saga continues................<P> Kris<BR>