We had our third visit on Sunday - believe it or not, ow actually heeded the C&Y directive not to be there. Went much easier without her there. Oc played and giggled with us, sat on our laps and hugged us, etc. One interesting item: During the visit, she asked about my four little boys - I had told her a little about them, but didn't tell her they were her brothers, and she had not yet been told what our relationship to her is either. She said,"You have four boys right?" I said yes. She said, "now you have FIVE kids!" I don't know where she came up with that. I said, "yes, you're right." Ow's mother changed the subject then, so we didn't get any further into it. Overall, it was a good visit, except oc threw several VERY bad tantrums - directed at her grandmother, not at us - when she didn't get her own way about things. They were not typical four-year-old tantrums - she turned very mean and violent, hitting and scratching and yelling. We were kind of taken aback by the behavior. And trust me, with four boys, we have seen our share of tantrums, but this was different. Very violent. H and I were both a little shook up by it. Kind of made me feel a little sick to the stomach thinking about how I would handle that kind of behavior - I don't know, it just made me feel a little overwhelmed. But except for those times, she was sweet-natured and lovable. I'm almost positive that oc's behavior is the result of abuse - I have seen the same kind of thing in the treatment center, but then it was with very angry and disturbed teenagers. Seeing it in a four-year-old, well, it was just hard to watch.<P>Today we went to the dependency hearing. Right before the hearing, we talked with an officer of the court, who told us that pretty much the only reason C&Y weren't recommending that we get custody was because we haven't had enough contact yet. Said they told him that they are considering recommending oc be placed with us in the future. So we were very pleased about that. We also overheard a conversation in which the court officer told ow's lawyer that ow's relationship with oc is "way out of whack" and that C&Y think that ow is mentally unbalanced and unfit.<P>Before the hearing started, we tried to talk to oc a couple of times. Strangely enough, even though oc was delighted to see us yesterday, and was just loving us during our visit, today she wouldn't talk to us or even look at us. I just KNOW that ow coached her to act afraid of us, or maybe she told oc horrible things about us. anyway, oc acted like she was scared to death to even look at us, and that was very upsetting to both h and I.<P>Right before our turn came, ow was holding oc and oc started asking her "Where did you buy me from?" Ow said "I didn't buy you, I grew you in my belly." Oc asked, "But how did I get there?" Ow didn't answer. Oc asked, "But WHO put me in your belly, mommy?" Ow said, "Nobody!" I said out loud to h, "It won't be long before YOU can answer that question." Ow started bawling. Oc is obviously picking up on the fact that there is something going on, and nobody will talk to her about it.<P>Ow also stated very loudly that if her mother got custody, she (the grandmother) was going directly to DR to sue h for child support. guess that was a last-ditch threat of some kind. Oh well, let her sue away. My order is still in place, so she can't get all that much.<P>During the hearing, ow's lawyer tried to tell the judge that ow leaving oc alone in the middle night was nothing more than a "bad judgement call." The judge said, "Oh, give me a BREAK! That's a lot more than bad judgement!" Judge asked ow what she was even doing with a married paramour to begin with. Ow's lawyer stood up and said, "I'd like to clarify that ow's boyfriend had been separated from his wife for a long time before ow and he got involved. Ow would not have been with a mm otherwise." WHAT?!? At this point, I choked and almost fell off of the bench. The judge caught the look on my face, and said, "mrs. cd, is there something you'd like to say about this?" I said, "*I* just want to clarify that oc is the product of ow's affair with my h, which also happened while we were married." Judge looked very thoughtful, then asked me a lot more questions about our involvement (and lack thereof) with oc, both past and present. I said that we would welcome the opportunity to offer oc a home, that we were working diligently to incorporate her into our lives, and that we just wanted him to know that we are very interested in her well-being and hope that the courts consider us when they decide on permanent placement. The judge said that he couldn't offer us custody at this time due to lack of contact. Said that he wants us to continue bonding with oc during visitation, said that our visitation schedule should continue uninterrupted so that we can continue to get to know oc, and vice versa. For whatever reason, after the first time I spoke up, judge directed all of the questions to our side to me, so h ended up not having to open his mouth once. Weird, but worked ok, and the judge seemed to like what I was saying, because I ended up talking more than even ow's lawyer did. He asked me a lot of questions about ow's behavior towards h and I, and I answered them the best I could. The only thing that didn't go well for us is that we didn't bring our lawyer - he said our lawyer should have been present for this. Well, no kidding, but we couldn't afford to bring him!<P>Judge decided to allow oc to remain in grandmother's physical custody, but maintained C&Y's control over her legal custody, with a review to take place in 6 months. Said that due to the limited contact with the natural father, his only other option at this point was foster care, which he hated to do. He said, "before I make this into an order, is there anything you would like to add, Mr. and Mrs. cd?" I said, "Our concern is that since ow is living with grandmother and oc, she will undoubtably be left alone in charge of oc at times, unless you stipulate that ow has to be supervised at all times." Judge asked C&Y, "Do you concur with Mrs. cd's suggestion?" C&Y said, "Yes, we do." So judge ordered that ow is always to be under the supervision of a responsible adult when she is with oc. I was floored, because I didn't think my opinion would carry any weight at all. Judge further ordered that as per C&Y's recommendations, ow will have to attend parenting classes and outpatient psychological counseling. Said that it was he was going with the "grandmother custody plan" so that mother and child could keep a strong bond while mother is being rehabilitated.<P>We were referred to several times during the court hearing as "Oc's father and stepmother" and oc was present the entire time (judge refused to send her out of the courtroom - I don't know why). So oc heard all of it, but I don't know how much she put together. I didn't think it was right for her to be listening to everything that was said, but what could we do? <P>Ow and grandmother were visibly angered and outraged by everything that I said, so I am sure that next visit will not be real pleasant for us, but it is the last supervised visit, so I guess we will get through it no matter how nasty they are with us. But it won't be fun - they were extremely pissed and it showed. If looks could kill...<P>After the hearing, we spoke again to the C&Y caseworker about where she thought we were headed in this. She told us that "From here on out, it's anybody's ballgame." But, she told us to keep doing all we could, and to call if we needed any help in getting our visits as scheduled. She was openly "unimpressed" with ow, and rolled her eyes when speaking about her, and implied that she thought we could probably end up with custody if we continued to prove we were interested. But the problem is, the case is being transferred to another county now that ow no longer lives in that one, so we don't know how the new caseworkers will feel about us. With any luck, this caseworker will pass on all her opinions to the next one. If so, I think we will be all right.<P>That's pretty much it.<BR>-cd

Sounds like you are making progress. One day at a time is all you can do for now and it seems to be working. Hang in there. I will be praying for you and your family.<P>How are you able to be so compasionate for the oc? I am sure that it is hard for you since it would bring up so many painful memories.<P>Nikita

cd you get the forum crown back! Geeze are you good. I feel so sorry for the oc, what a confused little girl.<P>Are you ready to raise her? You will be awsome!!!<P>Love<BR>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Hey gem,<BR>Thanks...my head was starting to feel naked <P>I think I'm ready to raise her. Scared silly, of course, but ready nonetheless.<P>Nikita,<BR>I won't lie to you. It was really hard at first, dealing with the memories. It gets a lot easier as time goes by. I kind of just become accustomed to dealing with it. Like my dad says, "A man can get used to hanging if he hangs long enough." <P>I try to focus on oc as an individual separate from the affair itself. That helps some. Believe it or not, it also helps that oc looks a lot like my children with h. It's hard to not feel for somebody who resembles your children, you know? Other than that, I think God must really want me to be part of oc's life, because somehow He always gives me just what I need to get through the rough patches.<P>I can't say that I have resolved my anger issues towards ow. Still can't stand her at all. I have to confess that I get a tickle out of the fact that she has to sit back and watch me and h bonding with oc together. It has to burn her butt that I'm going to be part of oc's life. That's not the reason I'm doing this, of course, but it is a nice fringe benefit, haha.<P>BTW, welcome to the forum. Nice to meet you!<BR>-cd

CD,<P>Sounds like things are continuing to go well for you and H! I hope that whatever OW and "Grandma" told Darling doesn't stick in her mind. I have no doubt that since yesterday was so wonderful they were trying to make it harder for you and H in any way they could! I was also thinking "abuse" when I read about how she throws her tantrums. The violence is learned, not something that comes naturally, especially to a 4 year old! <P>Maybe it was good that Darling was in the court room for the whole thing. She needs to learn sometime exactly who you and H are to her. With her comment on you now having 5 children, she probably already suspects what's going on.<P>I will continue to pray for you and H and Darling, that you do get custody. I know it is a scary thought, due to her behaviour when she doesn't get her own way, but you can do it.<P>I am so happy that things are still looking up for you all!!!<P>Love,<P>Tigger

You really are my hero, cd ... <P>My only concern would be what is going to happen to that child in the next 6 months. With relatives like OW and OW's mother ... I can't help but worry that they are going to do all they can to poison that child's mind and behavior between now and that next review. How will anyone be able to undo all the terrible stuff that could be happening in those intervening months.<P>Maybe foster care would be BETTER... <P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Hi CD,<P>You go...<P>Can I just say I really think you should go to law school. You would be so good for family rights. Think about it.

CD - What a long journey you've taken!! The OC is truly lucky to have you in her lives. I have a preominition that you will get full custody but perhaps not for a while. You are taking all the right steps and are obviously smarter and in a better position to raise her. I admire your strength of character. I am disappointed you will not be on line as often because I feel I am just getting to know you. Good luck and PS - my premonitions have an tendency to come true. Call it intution or whatever. <P>Also, what about having the caseworkers involved in the case write up a summation (get a copy of course) to send to the new social workers. Give your input prior and it will probably put you and your family in a positive light as stable etc. Just a thought but I think it's a good one. Take care.<BR> Kris

Dear Cd,<P>I sure am glad the judge recoginized you for who you are and the class of woman you represent, as opposed to ow's class. You should have been included and I would like to personally commend the judge for seeing that. I will continue to pray for your family and oc. Poor Darling. It sounds as if you and H are her only hope.<P>Much respect,<BR>bw