Long time lurker here, this is my first post. Not entirely sure if I'm even at the right website, but having read so much here I think I am.

Here's the problem: My wife of 14yrs and I got married 5mo after we met. We were both very happy for about 4yrs, then things got what I considered "a little rough". Then, she had a short A while I was overseas. After I got home, I found out about the A after 2mo of asking her over and over (because deep down I knew). She confirmed it, and that it was over between her and OM. "Definately" because he had left the area permanently, however she claims she ended it before he left and I am inclined to believe her. She was far more remorseful than I expected her to be, to the point I was suprised by it. She begged my forgiveness, and I immediately gave it to her, but they were hollow words. Further, much to my shame, I treated this woman horribly for the next 4 years... (no physical abuse or anything like that, I sent massive mixed signals to her about our future, partied like a fool, stayed away from the house as much as I could etc etc).

Now, for years my wife and I have been carrying on acting like a decent family (3 kids btw). On the surface, we do the things we're "supposed" to do but in reality, I live in my world and she in hers (which is not much beyond the boob-tube). We're always together, save my deployments, and we almost never argue or have bad words to say to each other. Thats not saying we don't have bad thoughts. We don't talk about anything important to our relationship though, this is obvious. Our sex life has been a joke for the last 5 years or so, partly because she has had one medical problem or another the entire time, partly because (I think) through her medical problems I had/have slowly lost my desire. We occasionally go out, occasionally do things together but it's just not what I know it should be, and my hearts definatley not in it.

A few months ago I started lurking this board as I knew for a fact that I was a walking time-bomb for a full blown A. The phrase "I love you, but I'm not in love with you" was EXACTLY what I'd planned to tell my wife. I've been jumping from one mind-set to another for a long time. More often than not, I can think of nothing but ending the marriage, my kids and "vows" being the reasons I don't. Through reading this and a few other web-boards, I finally came to the conclusion that the fake-marriage thing had to end no matter the consequences... I was ready to pack my bags and walk out four days ago, but I thought my wife deserved to know my thoughts. I simply sat down and told my wife I was unhappy, completely unhappy and I didn't think we or the kids deserved any more of the hollow-marriage stuff. I told her I was open to suggestion but that if I were to stay, she would start talking (she's very much a person who "keeps it all in"). I was shocked at what I heard. She was unhappy too but had decided roughly a year ago she really wanted to be married to me. She stated that for years prior to making her decision about loving me and staying with me, she'd been looking for a way out, exactly as I have been doing, and I feel terrible that while she'd decided NOT to leave, I had done the opposite (before talking about it).

We've talked allot the last few days. I'm still at home, but my wife is visibly shaken and worried. A good thing is that I've learned more about this woman in the last few days than I thought I ever would, but I still think we have a long road to go before becoming a happy couple, if thats even possible. Other than my own stupid transgression (PA), I've always been completely open with my wife. I've always been the one to initiate a conversation about "us", be it good or bad. Although I really believe she wants us to stay together, I feel she may be fooling herself into believing that.

Is it worth the effort?

M.

P.S. Our progress the last few days has been outstanding. Just hearing her thoughts has made me stay, and we've had a couple of GLORIOUS ...err.. make-up sessions.

<small>[ November 06, 2003, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: Mikeyb ]</small>

Dear Mike,

I have been a husband for 28 years, raised two challenging kids, and I have gone through cycles of feelings in the marriage, not too different from what you describe.

I believe in RH, Radical Honesty, in that I try to avoid doing anything that I would not want to tell my wife about. Carrying your guilt is not the most healthy thing for you, but it may be something that is best to do for your wife. If you have read this board, you have seen some spouses freak out at incidents that seem meaningless to the disclosing party. So I offer support for carrying your guilt. Just be a little extra kind to yourself, because it is a burden. I have taken extra chances when I felt guilty.

Thanks for serving overseas, apparently you are in a branch of the military, so on behalf of all us civilians benefiting from freedom, THANKS FOR YOUR SERVICE.

The MB boards are partly for support, and partly for a view from a different perspective.

You seem like you might be IN RECOVERY, although it seems that your problems now are more general.

You say your sex life has been a joke, up until recently. Being married means finding creative ways to meet each others needs together. So I would suggest that you broaden your ideas of good sex. Have you read THE LOVE DIET at the end of a post by TOOMUCHCOFFEEMAN under Negoitating? Since I have been making it a point to try to get to my wife three times a day, by phone, or message, with a one minute sweet nothing, she has been more ressponsive to me. For women, seduction is done days and hours ahead of time. For creativity, I recommend Baby Oil, Vasaline, Personal Lubricant, and Koromex contraceptive jelly/lubricant. What are your objectives in good sex? Squirting, Images for Visualizations, hip movement, and a slippery crevice. My wife may limit my access and choice of positions, but I take responsiblity for my satisfaction, within what she is willing to permit. I suggest that you take more responsibility for seduction and sex. I further recommend watching massage instruction videos, and improve your massage skills, up to Deep Muscle Rolfing. I feel it is my resonsibility to do my part to put my wife in a stimulated mood.

If you feel your marriage is hollow, look at 180 Degree Divorce Busters, for a recommended list of changes to make. Same Place as the LOVE DIET. Think of more changes to make, that either can do no harm, or might make things better for someone.

I try to be positive with my wife. I try ot suggest specific changes that I want. I have used your approach, "I would like to see our marriage improve, what can we do?" Usually, I ask for a specific reauest, like just reacently, "I feel like we could do better in bed. Sometimes I want you to change postions. If I whisper, "I need you to move over her" and nudge you in a certain direction, I'd like you to try to cooperate, OK?" My wife agreed to try to be cooperative.

Since your wife is bi-polar, you should probably expect wider mood swings. Most people recommend medications. Another, non-pharmacuetical approach to bi-polar, is to look at the people who are influencing your wife, and help her deal with their influences. Your influence was hostile for 4 years after her affair.

Jesus said we are supposed to forgive anyone who asks for our forgiveness, but the untranslated part of forgiveness, is also the concept of redemption, or pennance, repentance, and restitution. Your wife asked for your forgiveness, and you have issued a penalty. See if you need further repentance. If you are unsatisfied, then ask her how she might like to make that up. "How about you give me one free pass, anytime?"

Your wife needs to learn to listen to other's ideas, without buYing into their ideas. If expectations are too high, sadness or depression can result. If your wife takes on another person's ideas of good expectations, your wife may be months trying to meet those expectations, and create months of sadness, which would have been avoided, had she just politely listened without buying into the ideas. Make sure she practices shining other people on with you.

Blessings

Quipper

<small>[ November 01, 2003, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Thanks Quipper.

Wife and I are still doing good communicating... and I'm heading to "The Love Diet" first chance I get. Biggest problem I'm having right now is when I start telling myself "Awe shucks, it's not that bad". I'm real good at humoring myself... it is and has been that bad and I'm not going to let up, otherwise the next few months will become a "rinse and repeat" of the last number of years... without the repeat.

Mike

~~bump~~

Would apprecaite hearing from more folks. Feel free to tear me and my logic up... I've fairly tough skin.

Hi Mikey,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> More often than not, I can think of nothing but ending the marriage, my kids and "vows" being the reasons I don't. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, those are two pretty good reasons not to throw it all away. At least not yet.

I can relate to what you're goin through. I think a lot of us go through it. You're feeling like life should be more fun, more romantic, more....everything. You feel like you're too young to be acting this old and "settled". Am I right?

What I get out of your post is this...neither you nor your wife has been making much of an effort at the marriage for the last few years. Rather than expel the effort to really work hard on things, you have just sort of accepted the decline, until it's gotten to the point of not wanting to accept it any longer. You feel like you've given in enough. Sounds real familiar to me.

My only advice is that you shouldn't think about dumping this marriage until you feel like you've really tried, and I mean REALLY tried to get things to where you would like them to be. I mean, if your child was struggling with a learning disability or a medical condition, how hard would you work to help them through it? Are you working that hard on your marriage? Now that you two are communicating well, you need to openly talk about these things. I mean, after all, if you're thinking about leaving the marriage anyway, what harm can come from being honest about how you feel and where you want the marriage to go in order to stay. Neither of you can be the person the other one needs, if you're not willing to at least make the effort to tell them what you want and need. If you don't like her living in her world, and you in yours, then change it. You go be with her in her world sometimes, and then ask her to join you in your things sometimes. Make the concessions to bring both "worlds" together, making "your world", rather than his and her worlds.

I don't know if this makes much sense or not. Basically I'm saying that you've just gotten to a point where things are looking like they could really change for the better; do you want to throw that all away, now, without really fighting for the marriage. Don't discount the importance of those vows.

Oscar

Well, it's been awhile.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> and I'm (we're) back to square one. All was well for a short while, and I've really put effort into becoming a happy marriage (family) again, but it seem's hopeless. Gonna move this over to the Div fourm and see if I can't shake up some more advice. OT doesn't seem the right place now.

Would appreciate any comments.

M.

<small>[ July 09, 2004, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Mortimer ]</small>

Start spending time together without the kids...at least 15 hrs a week. Do things together-date. Go watch a scary movie, rock climb, ride motorcycles, drive sprots cars together (it doesn't have to be fast) or sky dive. Doing something that releases adrenalin will help those in love feelings.

You need to date your wife and she needs to date you. You need to find out what each others needs are. Good luck.

We are 4 yrs into recovery. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

oh yes...and rollar coasters...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by new jersey:
<strong> Start spending time together without the kids...at least 15 hrs a week. Do things together-date. Go watch a scary movie, rock climb, ride motorcycles, drive sprots cars together (it doesn't have to be fast) or sky dive. Doing something that releases adrenalin will help those in love feelings.

You need to date your wife and she needs to date you. You need to find out what each others needs are. Good luck.

We are 4 yrs into recovery. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Jersey!

First, a little extra background. When I posted my original post (above), I probably wasn't clear enough. My W's A was back in 91... our recovery, well, it wasn't much. I never got over it. By the time I made my post, I was ready for a D, but not because of a 12yr old A. I've never let go of my W's A, and truthfully I doubt I ever will, but I learned how to deal with it without causing any outward damage (ie: suffer through it, suck it up and move on).

Now, that being said... since my post I did actually slog through a sort of post-dated recovery. I reopened some old wounds, and honestly I have learned allot, and in some sort of way come to terms with it. I handle the old memories much much better now. For certain, I'm now intimately aware of the damage that A caused our marriage... my reactions and following actions, as well as her's in the years following the A were pretty bad. Luckily (I guess) we both held our children as priorities over ourselves... and they are turning out pretty good kids, so successful as a marriage, at least the kids didn't suffer (We've never fought or anything in front of them... hey we may be bad at allot of things but I would say we're experts at raising children in the middle of crisis lol).

The possibility of D now rests with me. She want's no part of a D, but I am getting nothing from being married. Hard to explain I guess.

Funny enough... I employed your idea before I even read it. Threw the kids out all afternoon today haha. They weren't happy... Dad given them cash and forcing them to go to the pool or youth center or whatever, what an ogre I am eh? Well anyway, about 2hrs into this the wife strikes up a miracle conversation bout US!!!!! I was floored. First she tells me she's sorry she hadn't been putting in much effort and had noticed I'd been on edge the last couple weeks etc etc. Heck.. she pretty much covered everything and I was for once speechless (with joy). Then she made note of the fact that this afternoon was the first time the two of us had been alone for more than 15 minutes in literally years... the kids better get used to it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

Ok, crisis is over for today, but I'm not going to be Mr Optimist. We're talking one day out of 8yrs or so, we'll see. What a coincidence eh?

Mort

<small>[ July 11, 2004, 01:28 AM: Message edited by: Mortimer ]</small>

For me the trick was that I made the choice to forgive. I knew I would be OK even if he did it again-I don't think he will-but, I'd be OK. I also know my family and I am better off with him. I love him-that is the bottom line. I love him enough to live with this in our past. I love him enough to not bring it up-that would be a life sentence-he didn't kill anybody so that's enough time for him to suffer. It is more important that we build a future than look at the past. I know what you mean about never letting the feelings go, I think for a man it is much harder because a man's ego is different from a woman's. You may also be hanging on to the feeling just in case. It is OK to let it go. You are both different people now. You are a better man than most because you did the right thing. I admire you because it is hard for a man to go thru this, as painful as it is for a woman, I think a man has it harder because of society. That said, if she hasn't cheated since, I'd say she was temporarly insane.

Just another thought here...are you around 40-give or take 5 yrs.? We start to look back at our lives and reevaluate everything. I think there are ups and downs in a marriage. I am happy I stayed with my WS. We have so much fun together now, but you do have to get the kids out of the house or with a babysitter. The primary relationship between you and your wife is the thing that protects them(the kids) the most, so you have to work on it. Older kids need you even more-esp when they start a family of their own. They want to know that a family can survive. They need to know this, it gives them security and hope. It models behavior that will stick with the family for generations.
I guess I'd just say that maybe your marriage isn't perfect, but that it can be a great marriage anyway. Keep spending time alone and see what happens. If we go a few weeks without a date things start to go downhill, so you really need to keep the dating thing alive. You're just in a down cycle. Enjoy the rollarcoaster!