I have not written in a while, but have come to MB’s almost every day since D-day X-mas eve 1999. My life has been very complicated and emotionally stressful ever since. In a nutshell I have three kids 11, 10 & 9. The youngest are boys and the middle kid, named after me, is my wife’s lover’s kid. I did not find out for 8 years that my middle guy was not my bio-son. The person worked with her and became my friend. We went out together, played sports together and even went out on double dates with girls I set him up with. This was all part of a huge scam to not blow their cover and to build my trust. The only reason I found out originally is that my wife had told my sister-in-law many years before of her affair and the fact that she did not know who the father was of the boys. Yes, even after having one kid by him, she continued to not use contraception. Heavy Fog going on! In fact, they never talked about the possibility of either being his cause she did not want to end the fantasy. My mom stopped her from telling me but after he got married little leaks from her lead to my sister-in-law filling in the gaps for me. Wow what a feeling!<P>Any way, my biggest problem is that even though she tells me she has been totally honest with me I don’t believe her. Since D-day she has not put herself in any compromising situations, but I still feel the need to understand how my life was for over 8 years while she covered this up from me. She will spend no time talking about things or questions I have still and shuts down and tells me “We have already gone through that”. I on the other hand told her of my few indescetions and am willing to answer any questions. I feel we should be extremely open about everything that happened in our lives. My emotions are always on the edge of leaving to escape the pain, but she is trying very hard and I love the kids. I still am not sure if I would be happier away from the person who hurt me so deeply. <P>In addendum, I have always been a person who worked long hours, hung out with his friends, drank beer, golfed etc. and that caused her to be lonely to begin with and oddly enough the OM had the same habits. I have made very few modifications to my lifestyle mainly due to the fact that I feel my wife does not deserve it. I know this is wrong, but that is the way I feel. She chose to ruin our family and be stupid and not use contraception. Part of me wants her to pay dues for what she has done and feel pain and hurt like I do. She has a deep hidden part of her that justifies what she has done and shruggs things off by saying, “Well what can I do about it”. It really burns me up that it does not burn her up. Anybody feel the same way sometimes? I also think she still wants to think that there are many positive memories she wants to hold onto that I resent a lot. She won’t admit that though. She just thinks the OM is acting the way he has because he is protecting his current life, new baby and all, but that back in the day it was real. How real can it be if they never talked about the pregnancy even when he was with her at 8 months pregnant. <P>Most of the time I think I am love with her, but many times I think it is the huge life sacrifice and change my life and the kids life would take on if I left. I would also resent losing my “Stuff” and my family because of this idiotic situation I did not ask for. I was in a battle that I did not even know I was in! We went to counseling together for 8 months, but I became the bad guy and she was the poor young lonely girl who made a big mistake. We never did really get to the facts of what happened. I currently go on my own, but my wife will not go on her own because I feel she does not want to confront the inner insecurities and feelings she harbors from childhood and beyond. She was adopted and her mother ruled the roost, good girls don’t do this, etc. She became the opposite and was very promiscuous at a young age <P>By the way, the other man knows of the paternity and chose to have me arrested for harassment for some emails I sent early on and had chose to lie to his current wife and ignore the fact her bore a son in the world. I am on the edge of leaving because I have not felt any true happiness since D-day. I feel I need to know many more things then my wife will give and I am very resentful she changed my life forever and I cannot forgive her for that right now in my life. If any of you can help me with some strategies you may have practiced or helpful advice I would appreciate it. I am very depressed lately because I am leaning toward leaving, but once I do I know there is no turning back and that really scares me. I am very confused emotionally. I am not scared of the unknown but rather resent having to give up the known. Any help would be appreciated. <BR> <BR>

Ronman,<P>Don't make any big decisions right now when you feel conflicted. You may regret crossing bridges that can burn; you do not sound like you really want to leave. I'm sorry your wife will not accept professional help; that minimizes what can be improved. It's only been 6-7mo and the timeline for recovery is 2 years. Still, you BOTH need to work on the marriage for it to work. <P>What exactly would you like from your wife? Can you write it all down, then show it to your counselor for feedback (before showing wife)? Do you feel your counselor is really helping you, or do you perhaps need someone with more experience with this? You can also consult recovery books. For example, there is a chapter in After the Affair by Abram Spring that lists for us what ('high risk' and 'low risk') behaviors/actions we might need to see in order to rebuild trust in the marriage. You can show your list to your wife and encourage her to list things you could do that would improve the marriage for her. I highly recommend the Emotional Needs questionaire from this site and Love Busters quiz. <P>Would your honesty be too threatening to her? I mean, why not tell her that this double betrayal hurts you so much you have thought about leaving, that you are sorry if your behavior pushed her away from you, and you really need to see her accept responsibility for her actions and help improve the marriage so that neither of you ever let this happen again. Did she know of your "indiscretions" before or during her affair? If so, it is not a big leap to figure she felt justified in her actions at the time. <P>I'm sorry you're having a hard time of it and I hope your family recovers.<P>Prayers and angel wings,<BR>J

Ronman:<P>I would like to know about your indescretions, Ronman. <P>How many were there? Would you be considered a serial cheater? Did they preclude your wife's one affair? Or was she a serial cheater?<P>If you have had a few indescretions, you are fortunate to have not conceived an OC as well. And if you have been neglectful and self-centered about your lifestyle, this may have been a catalyst for your wife's behavior. <P>If she did not feel loved or important, then she probably thought you didn't care enough about her and sought comfort elsewhere. This does not excuse her behavior whatsoever, but what would you have said to her if she would have come to you and told you of her lonliness? Would you blow her off or make constructive changes, being sensitive to her lonliness and vulnerablity? And have you considered that since you are clearly not in Plan A, trying to woo her back to you, that you are setting up for history to repeat itself with your resentment and continuation of your self-centered lifestyle?<P>I don't mean to bust your chops, Ronman, really. I am just trying to point out how people act, react and think. If you are resentful of your wife yet do little to make significant changes then you can expect little else to improve. Also, not meaning to be hard or rude, but, isn't your complaint a little like the pot calling the kettle black? It sounds to me the only difference is that you were lucky enough not to knock up some hussy.<P>You sound as if you are both in an extraordinary amount of pain. You constantly think of leaving, you blame her and lament the possible loss of all you have worked so hard for. She sounds as though she is feeling distanced from you, not close to you and has developed some kind of weird detachment just in case you can't or won't forgive her, and in case you dump her. <P>She probably is deeply ashamed of what she has done but probably thinks that since you have done it, too, it's tit for tat. So she minimizes what she has done so she can live with herself. That kind of thinking is wrong and builds resentment and insecurity and it sounds like neither of you want to risk giving your hearts to one another completely. The walls are up and you're obsessed over what she did and what she felt with the OM while you dismiss your affairs as insignificant indescretions.<P>Hey, I'm just shooting off my mouth and musing about people I do not know personally or am not privy to their history. If I am wrong, I'm wrong, but basically I am just going on what you wrote and human nature.<P>Like Jenny said, the wounds are still fresh and it take two years to get over the raw hurt before you slip into acceptance and a dull but tolerable ache. My bet is that if you focus on giving without reservation and make huge, noticable attempts to pull her to you, you may find what many of us here on this site have found...a new and intense rebirth, marriages better than ever before with a new found understanding, compassion and depth. <P>It takes unselfishly putting the other one's needs ahead of your own. <P>Study the Harley principles and read everything you can get your hands on to implement a new lifestyle that includes her and brings you both a new and joyful closeness and watch the magic begin. Really. No kidding.<P>Now go out and buy her a huge bouquet of flowers and a weekend away at a hotel and romance her...write her a letter filled with your deepest thoughts, feelings and pain. Schedule a Retrouvaille weekend for you to rediscover each other all over again. Learn what you need to do to make things work for both of you.<P>I know you can do this. You have so much to gain.<P>Catnip =^^= <p>[This message has been edited by catnip (edited July 12, 2001).]

Dear Cat:<P>I have read many of your posts and you are truly very insightful. The first answer to your question is "no", my wife did not know of anything until I told her in the days following D-day. The second answer is "no" I was not a serial cheater. There were a handful of one-night opportunities that I did take advantage of, one actual resulting in full blown s*x. I am not justifying the actions or minimizing it and I DID use protection. The one positive thing is that I did come clean on everything including Bachelor Parties and the like. I still do not think my wife has, but I have no proof only opportunities and cicumstantial evidence. <P>I have done things like send her flowers everyday for a week. I did not get the type of response i would have hoped for. My wife believes her actions should be her word. I am a word person. The walls are up. I want her to let hers down before I lower mine. She was such a good liar and manipulator. How can i be sure it is not that way now. Her family has no money and if I left she would be in financial straights plus she would have to go after OM for money. <P>The dilemma and why I posted is because even though the kid is not at fault I feel like she should get the life she chose. I just want her to open up and tell me who she is. At this point after 18 months we should be able to talk about it without arguing or her shutting down. The profesional and I have only been through 4 sessions and I have not determined whether he is for me or not but atleast he listens to my feelings and I have a place to vent. <P>One more thing - It is very hard for me to put someone elses needs in front of your own when your scared to be hurt again then again if I don't history may repeat itself. I know all this and yet my feelings drag me other places. Only a woman can do this to a man - hide a sibling. There are only a few here like me who admit and know. There are many more women out there who are cowards to let their husband know the real story. K is a special person and Paul Moyer lost his battle. I do not know if I'll win mine but I thank you guys for responding and I will take your words to heart and try to be a little bit better tomorrow.

Dear Cat:<P>I have read many of your posts and you are truly very insightful. The first answer to your question is "no", my wife did not know of anything until I told her in the days following D-day. The second answer is "no" I was not a serial cheater. There were a handful of one-night opportunities that I did take advantage of, one actual resulting in full blown s*x. I am not justifying the actions or minimizing it and I DID use protection. The one positive thing is that I did come clean on everything including Bachelor Parties and the like. I still do not think my wife has, but I have no proof only opportunities and cicumstantial evidence. <P>I have done things like send her flowers everyday for a week. I did not get the type of response i would have hoped for. My wife believes her actions should be her word. I am a word person. The walls are up. I want her to let hers down before I lower mine. She was such a good liar and manipulator. How can i be sure it is not that way now. Her family has no money and if I left she would be in financial straights plus she would have to go after OM for money. <P>The dilemma and why I posted is because even though the kid is not at fault I feel like she should get the life she chose. I just want her to open up and tell me who she is. At this point after 18 months we should be able to talk about it without arguing or her shutting down. The profesional and I have only been through 4 sessions and I have not determined whether he is for me or not but atleast he listens to my feelings and I have a place to vent. <P>One more thing - It is very hard for me to put someone elses needs in front of your own when your scared to be hurt again then again if I don't history may repeat itself. I know all this and yet my feelings drag me other places. Only a woman can do this to a man - hide a sibling. There are only a few here like me who admit and know. There are many more women out there who are cowards to let their husband know the real story. K is a special person and Paul Moyer lost his battle. I do not know if I'll win mine but I thank you guys for responding and I will take your words to heart and try to be a little bit better tomorrow.

Ronman2, Do you love her? If so fight hard to be with her. Make a safe haven for her to talk you without screaming and yelling. <BR>Those boys deserve you in their lives. You sound like a compassionate man. With honest ways. Be truthful with her. If she sees that she will come around if she loves you.<P>Prayers for your family. God will show you the way...pray for peace in your life.<P>Bless you.<BR>Debi<BR><P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Hi Ronman,<P>You asked for advice on how you might get past your hurt and anger and begin to forgive. I hope I have some advice for you. I can only tell you what has worked for me and try and point out what I see as a few inconsistencies in the standards that you are applying to your own behavior and hers. If you find something useful here, I am glad. If I only wasted your time and our electrons, I am sorry. If I offend, please forgive me. Some of what I have to say may not be easy to hear.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ronman2:<P>I on the other hand told her of my few indescetions and am willing to answer any questions. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ronman, I don't mean to be insensitive here, but speaking strictly about your wife's affair and ignoring for the moment the false paternity, what did she do that is so quantitatively different from what you did? You also betrayed your marriage vows, kept secrets, and lead a double life. I don't understand your assertion that the fact that you used contraception makes your affair any better than hers. For me, the betrayl is in the sex act, not the absence of a Trojan wrapper.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In addendum, I have always been a person who worked long hours, hung out with his friends, drank beer, golfed etc. and that caused her to be lonely to begin with and oddly enough the OM had the same habits. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sounds like you were were not a very attentive husband. If you are unwilling to change, to put your marriage in front of your own pleasures, why do you think she should be willing to? Do you feel any remorse for your treatment of her? Have you told her you are sorry for not cherishing her? That was as big a part of your wedding vows as the fidelity part was, so were love and honor. You certainly weren't loving, honoring nor cherishing her on your one-night stand, nor with strippers at a bachelor's party, nor if you were excessively absent from your home while you entertained yourself with your buddies.<P>You have both already hurt each other so badly, I don't understand the risk in changing a few behaviors. Our marriage counselor said to me "Is what you are doing [screaming at husband to spend more time with me] working? If it isn't why do you keep doing it? Why don't you try something different? If it doesn't work, you can go back to screaming at him." You don't have to give your whole heart back to her at once. Try a few changes and see what happens, maybe changes in you will change her and they really don't cost you anything. If you give your marriage your all for 6 months or a year and things are no better you can walk away knowing that you did everything you could to save it and you will probably be a better person for the changes you made.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I also think she still wants to think that there are many positive memories she wants to hold onto that I resent a lot. She won’t admit that though. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You can't own another person's mind. Do you hate and despise those strippers you goofed around with? Do you loathe the woman you slept with? If you do, does it make what you did one bit better? I don't know what my H may or may not feel about his ex-lover. I don't ask and I find it to be basically irrelevant. He may still care for her, but I don't think it matters much if he does. He is here with me. He is now living a right life. He is saying and doing what I need him to do to heal. He has ended contact with OW and that is all I truly needed him to do. He says he loves me and I believe him. He says that he has learned his lesson; I believe him. If he still has fond feelings for her what does that take away from me? I still have fond feelings for boyfriends I loved before I met my husband. They don't in anyway diminish the love I have for him. That is ours and ours alone.<P>Have you ever tried loving her enough to drive any of those stray thoughts away? Are you trying to win her back with a strong Plan A or are you intent on punishing her for what she did? If it is punishment/justice/vengance that you want, I doubt that you will be able to rebuild a marriage that will make either one of you happy. There is no justice and no appropriate repayment for an affair. It is a horrible, horrible wrong that can't ever be made right. The best and only compensation (as the Harley's say) is a happy marriage in the future. If you look through these posts, I think that you will find that in the marriages that are healing, the BS had to move toward forgiveness or at least hold it out as a carrot before the wayward spouse began to come around and make the necessary changes. That is what forgiveness is: if we only forgave the forgiveable, it wouldn't be a difficult thing to do. It stinks that the betrayed spouse has to do much of the work in the beginning to bring the wayward spouse back into the marriage but <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I feel I need to know many more things then my wife will give and I am very resentful she changed my life forever and I cannot forgive her for that right now in my life.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Many of us have decided that we can forgive without every single detail. I for one don't want every detail. I know the most important ones--how long it lasted, why he thinks he let himself slide into an affair, what he felt about her, what needs she met, what were the best and the worst things about an affair. The dates, times and sexual positions are more than I care to know. I don't want those images burned into my mind forever.<P>I hope nothing I said was too harsh because I will admit that your post rubbed me the wrong way a bit. You seem to be excusing your bad behavior and not taking much responsibility for it. Are you holding your wife to much higher standards than you are holding yourself to?<P>I wish you peace and recovery,<BR>MJ<BR>

One of the most profound things I learned here at MB is that the WS is a very complex creature.<P>While on one side they aknowledge the pain their affair has caused, the other side has so much guilt that it doesn't allow them to easily take the plunge into giving of themselves to the BS freely.<P>It's very ironic that you as a WS exhibit these attributes and you wife does too. While at the same time you possess the attributes of a BS.<P>The BS's M.O. is they are feeling so raw and betrayed they can't bring themselves to be the one to take the first step. All the while wishing the WS can be sufficiently punished for their actions. All this while loving the WS.<P>So very complex.<P>But Harley's Plan A forces the BS to throw that desire for punishment out the window.<P>It may sound harsh,,,, but suck it up. Take the step. Woo your wife into your circle again. And remember, it takes a lot longer than a week of flowers. <P>I did a modified version of Plan A for months, only to get an emotional affair by my H in return. Perseverence is the key here. All of my investments in Plan A over those months finally broke through his defensive armor. And not a moment too soon. I was ready to give up. I shutter at the thought of us going through with the divorce.<P>There is a plush green pasture on the other side. You just have to want to hike over the mountain to get to it. Unfortunately you'll have to do it without much help initially from you wife. That's where your strength and love for her will pull you through.<P>Concentrate, Focus, Keep you eye on the prize, and fight.<P>Z.<P>------------------<BR>Zebra Baby ...<P>Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Hey there,<P>I am really sorry for your pain. It must be devastating to learn that your child in fact is not yours biologically.<BR>Sounds to me like your wife really has shut down. My H suffers from this syndrom. He "doesnt remember" facts or details of the situation. More than likely he does and doesnt want to think of it, much less remember it on his own. I do not believe he thinks of ow fondly. I do not believe he thinks of her at all. Form of denial maybe? It helps him to feel better about what he has done, by not feeling anything about it at all and God forbid I want to talk about it. He never has been one of those to talk about it. But here is the chincher...eventually is you allow yourself not to obsess over it, your curiosity will dwindle.<BR>Now as far as your indescretions go, you didnt tell her until after you found out. She kept it from you...you kept it from her. The difference between the 2 is that she was completely stupid about it. Are you angrier bc she was stupid? Just try and remember why you never bothered to confess to her...was it so you would not hurt her? Is that a possibility as to why she held out so long? Not excusing her behavior, but do not let yours go so easily. As far as the hours you worked and what not, well, now you know it is not healthy for your marriage, but it was in NO WAY a reason for her to have an A. Your A is not her fault and hers is not yours. We ultimately decide for ourselves. Let us keep responsibility where it should be.<BR>I have not read th eother affair book that was mentioned but have heard of it a lot on this site, also my favorite is Surviving An Affair (Harely). Have you read Harley's basic concepts yet?<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>broken_wings

Hi again, Ronman:<P>If she is trying very hard, and you love the kids and family life---you seem to be holding onto the pain. What current sacrifices are you making to be married to her now? Don't count the past---but what isn't she doing for you now that she could be? I know that you want to have her feel "pain"---but you really wouldn't wish that on someone you love, would you. When she's asking you "what can I do about it"---is there anything concrete that you can give to her, as a way to "atone" for her sins. It's best if that atonement can be a one-time thing that the two of you can POJA on.<P>I can understand your wanting to know "all". I have to admit that I still don't have "details" that I feel I should have concerning my wife's affair. But in the big picture---I look at all the **** I got through and figure that there's nothing of that magnitude still hidden. And I'm able to move forward, without the focus on the past history.<P>Did you ever work with Steve or Jenn Harley in counseling?

I have not read Harley's book and I will in the next few weeks. Why do I feel that having an EA attached to a PA and lying in my face and juxtapositioning my schedule to babysit while she went out and did these things is worse then my behavior. I feel used. They played me like a fiddle. We went out on a double date when my wife was 7 months pregnant with his kid with a date I set him up with just to continue to lull me into a sense of trust even farther. Is that not worse when carried over a period of years. Is not lying to a man about the paternity of his child one of the lousiest things to have happen to any man or human being? <P>What I did was wrong and conveinent. I never ran my life around another person. One other thing. My wife had three miscarriages before we finally had my daughter. I find out that things were heating up somewhat before she was even conceived and her conception put things on hold in my wifes mind for a while. One of the things that hurts me is that she said to him "You'll never understand how much I love you", meaning I bore you a son please acknowledge it. All he could say was "Yes, I do". They always communicated in innuendo and supposition which my wife took as acknowledgement of fact. She even invited the schmuck to his Christening to show him the son and then was so happy when he gave the biggest gift. It truly is so much more complicated then meeting a person a bar and having fun with no attachments. There is no way it is the same! The final act is the same, but the intention of teh relationship is dfferent. I do not think I am rationalizing here I just did not go out of my way and put my faith and love in a person and forget my family. I also did not include a lover in our life as a friend of the family and do activities together. It is truly different but yet the same. It was all about attention. The funny thing is is that in most instances you do not see the person everyday but yet feel fulfilled. You have an affair because you feel lonely, but yet I was home more often then the times they were together. In fact, I was home almost every time because I babysat. How did he fill the void every few weeks. He never treated her like a girlfriend - no cards or flowers or gifts or things like that. She assumed that was his way of being discreet. An EM affair is so much more complicated and desructful. I get really involved in all this stuff it is just the way I am. OK - rip me apart - go ahead - I can take it!

No need to rip you apart. But you're living in the past. It sounds like you need to decide to live in the future, and to figure out a plan to do this with as much love and security as you can get in your marriage.<P>Have you thought about moving---especially with all the bad memories involved, it might help you to get your family away from this place.