In your post under Tina's thread you asked for us to help you understand why we Wives want to be involved in the OC's lives. <P>So I thought I'd start this thread so that we COUPLES that choose involvement can help you understand... if you are willing to open your mind and not be judgemental.<P>First thought, I'd like to ask you a hypothetical question. If a man has children with a former wife and remarries, should the new wife not be involved with her stepchildren???? In your opinion should the man just keep the children away from his new family????<P>Ok, let me address your plea for understanding. I see it this way. My husband has fathered a child by another woman. He has made the choice to be involved in that childs life. I am his wife and I choose to support his decision. As his wife and the mother of his other two children we spend a great deal of our time not at work together as a family. There is little time left in our schedules for personal time, let alone time to run off and have an "outing" with his daughter.<P>And let's not mention the fact that as this girl grows into young adulthood. How would she feel about not being "good enough" to be welcomed in her father's home? How would she feel about never having the opportunity to get to know her brother's and sisters? When she is old enought to decide to involve herself with her father's family, will she feel like a stranger with this woman (her father's wife) and this people who are her brothers and sisters?<P>What is soooooo wrong with wanting this "innocent" child to be apart of her father's family? What do you have against the OC being incorporated into the home and family? <P>Since you have admitted being an OW in your post under ScarletPumpernickel's thread. You sound to me like a OW who is pissed that the Wife is now mothering your child. Is this true???? I know my OW's greatest fear is that we will take her child from her. We may not take her, but her fear is valid, one day that child may want to be with us permanently.<P>Is that your fear? <P>Well I tell you.... my OW should have thought about this long before she spread her legs with my husband. Regardless of what she thought he'd would do or said. Reality is.... she made a bad choice and now she lives with it. And her having a father for her daughter is a package deal.... she gets a stepmommy too. She doesn't like it.. too bad. I don't like the fact she F%%K%% my husband, but I live with it. So she will live with me in her and her daughters life. TooBadSoSad.<P>Just my two cents. Anyone want to chime in?<BR>Z.<p>[This message has been edited by zebrababy (edited July 13, 2001).]

Dear Z,<P>Just wanted to say, "Well Done!!" I was trying to figure out what to say to BINthereDUNthat when I saw your thread. I don't understand her myself. I think that you women who are willing to be stepmommy to these children are the most amazing women. There have been times that I wish I had the guts to contact the W, but don't want to cause any more pain than I may have already done. I don't wish to receive CS and really don't want OM to know of Abbi's existance due to his violent tendencies, but wouldn't mind Abbi knowing her half sister. I really don't see that happening since I heard through the grape vine that OM has shacked up with another woman, and that she may be pregnant! Imagine that!!! I am by no means making light of what I did, just that I am not surprised by the news. <P>Maybe this woman needs some advice. If so, please ask for it. Otherwise, stop judging these women who want to support their husbands in being a part of the OC's life! <P>Tigger

Well said Zebrababy, and as for you BinthereDunthat, you have not been anywhere near the things I have been or dun. Please go to my thread, to Flowerseed and read my reply to your reply, I would hate to have to repeat myself here. I will say that my h and I have and are still building a wonderful marriage and a part of that building is our family, and guess what the oc is his child, my children's half sibling and my step child and so that makes the oc a part of our family. Marriage is about love, happiness and family so there you go the oc is and will always be in my marriage and family. And as Zebra said if my ow did not want a child of hers involved with me and my family she should have thought twice before she spread her legs, because she knew about me and that my h had a family, he was drunk and stupid and I was stupid to have kicked him out for the short time he was gone, but we are all one big happy family now. Our ow is the only unhappy one as you seem to be, maybe that is an indication that woman should not get involved with mm and then they will not have a future that is unhappy. In closing if you do not have anything nice to say to us nice people than do not say anything at all, and one more thing, go away. Gabi1116

I just wanted to add my support for you WONDERFUL LADIES that are willing to bring oc into your homes and familys.I think most of you know that oc will never be a part of our family .I just dont have it in me to deal with the shi* most of you have to deal with, I think I'm getting to old he he he (good excuse right). There is no way I would ever try to tell any of you what you are doing is wrong or that you should do it this way. It takes a very special person to do what you great wives are doing,and you ladies make me proud to know you. To bad some of the ow that keep showing up here would try to get to know you first before they start telling you how to live.<BR> I think that is very poor advice to want a child to be seen out of the home thats awful. I could only imagine how much worse this would make an already very messed up little heart. I swear you girls seem to get it the worst your damed if you do and damed if you dont.<BR> I just dont get how some of these ow think it is o.k. to take the money from the family from the wife but not want her involved in there childs lives only the father. Do you supose it could be they really know in there hearts that you are more women then they will ever be and they are worried that there child will know that also . Hang in there ladies were all going to make it. Remember the story about the horses we put our heads together and protect. Let the [censored]** kick each other with love flowerseed

You know, I just don't get it. No matter what you ladies do someone will find fault with you.<P>If you refuse to have have contact with oc and make that a condition to staying with your h's which they will agree to or not, I don't think any of the agree to no contact out of fear of their lives (well maybe a few ). The we have people who come here and talk about how horrid you are.<P>If you try to have contact with OC and welcome them into your lives and familes then people come here and make remarks about that too. Face it these children are much better off having you in their lives to see real people who know how to love and to forgive. If you choose to be step-parent or even parent to the OC more power to you.<P>It seems to me that each of you is doing what is best for you and your marriages/familes in these situations no matter what road you are taking. And each and every one of you have my deepest respect. <P>I haven't walked your road (OC) but I know it was one of my biggest fears and I can tell you now if either ow 1 or 2 had given birth to my h's child there is no way he would have been involved in that childs life without me being in it too. Not if he wanted to stay married to me.<P>Don't let anyone tell you you are wrong in your handeling of your own situation. Even if that person has walked the same path, they aren't you. Hold your heads up and walk proud ladies, all of you !

Dear Flowerseed and all,<BR>Please, please, please don't misunderstand. In no way was I judging anyone at all nor was I finding fault with anything you are doing. I just wanted to know why you put yourself through all the torture of dealing with the OW--it just sounded like the other women in your lives make you so angry and upset by what they are saying and doing, with all their insecurities, etc. Curiosity was my only motivation, not to condemn anyone in any way. The reason I referred to the story of Sarah and Hagar was because I felt that the story had some merit, not that it applied to you line for line. <P>I thank you for answering my question. As I said to Gabi, your lovingkindness toward your OC's is to be greatly commended and I totally admire you. On perceiving that I am still an OW, I am not. Adultery was a sin I committed and I have taken responsibility for as I didn't hide it from my child nor anyone else in my life. I am not an OW today. God is a God of restoration and transformation.<P>I was not afraid of anyone helping me raise my son, not at all. I would have greatly admired the MM and his family if they chose to be involved in my child's life--they did not. <P>You are right about all the questions that the OC would possibly have when they grow up as strangers to their roots. I only wish that my son's bio father and his wife could have had an ounce of the compassion that all of you seem to have for your OC.

BTDT:<P>We are really tough on OW's here. If you pass the litmus test by allowing us to take shots at you and you survive it and show adequate remorse for your indescretions, we eventually annoint you as one of 'us', as we have on two other occasions with Obratti and Duranie. But if you are brave enough to come into Indian territory, you better come bringing 'gifts'.<P>We are not comfortable with OW's coming here and crashing our safe haven because some of them tell us we are [censored] for NOT wanting the OC in our lives, and others scream at us for including the OC into our lives. We can't win, no matter what we do. In fact, we have been essentially raped into step-parenthood and none of us asked for this and really, really resent OW's telling us how we should conduct ourselves because most OW's are calling the financial shots and have changed our lives forever by keeping a child they had no business keeping, having, getting knocked up with or screwing our husbands to begin with...yet, we are left holding the perverbal bag of snakes, fighting misplaced guilt for some kid that is not related to us, but whom we have feelings for because the kid is part of our husbands and we love our husbands.<P>This is our heartburn, our anger, our resentment, our heartbreak, our sadness. When we all have to alter our emotional and financial lives to accomodate huge income shares going out to someone we had no say in, were not consulted about decisions and suddenly have to go through the confusion of whether to stay in the marriage, include or exclude OC and deal with really icky women (most of the time) who have intruded themselves into our lives, we get really, really ugly.<P>So, BTDT, please understand that even if you tell us the sky is blue, you'll probably still get an argument from us. Depending on where we are in our healing has a lot to do with whether or not we accept or reject what you have to say.<P>I am a big proponent of allowing everyone to express their opinion, even if I don't like it. In exchange, I retain the right to shoot off my mouth and say what I want to say.<P>It's OK with me if you come here and express your point of view, but this comes with a warning label...it very likely will not be met with a lot of acceptance until we are sure you mean no ill will. We are hypersensitive to OW's who come here with nasty intentions. We had a rash of it not long ago that was extremely hurtful to one of our memebers. And the excruciating pain we are all in at one time or another has us very protective of each other.<P>Now, for my opinion. No OW has any right whatsoever to conceive, have and keep a child born from an affair with a MM. Any child from such a situation should be given up for adoption for the ultimate good of all parties involved, unless OW is financialy able to provide for the child on her own and has a large extended family so the child is not left with no one to love or care for it or have that sense of family that is so crucial. If the OW keeps OC and disappears into the sunset never to be seen or heard from again, this is a decent thing to do. <P>The ONLY two innocents in this situation is the Betrayed Spouse and the Child. The child needs and deserves a stable and loving two-parent home with all the advantages, the Betrayed Spouse deserves not to have to have her life turned upside down and inside out, emotionally and financially, causing struggles with misplaced guilt about a child that does not belong to her and pulls her husband away from her and her children. The husband pays and pays big by suffering the loss of respect from wife, children, parents, siblings, friends, coworkers and anyone who knows about it in the community. He will suffer having to live with the regret, shame and remorse all the rest of his days and bear the knowledge that he did the very worst possible thing imaginable that any man could ever do to his wife...moreso that an affair that produces no children. Many women here are infertile, I am one of them, and it is the most painful thing in the world to know that some stranger was able to do something that is impossible for me to do. And able to do it with my husband, my husband, not hers. I am the ONLY one entitled to have my husband's child, even if I cannot. Therefore, it is my opinion that the OW OWES it to the spouse of the MM to reliquish the child for adoption so everyone involved can move forward and put the ugliness behind them.<P>See, I feel very, very strongly about this and I will never ever change my mind about it. It is simply my opinion. No one has to agree with me. <P>That's my story and I'm sticking to it.<P>Catnip =^^=<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Many women here are infertile, I am one of them, and it is the most painful thing in the world to know that some stranger was able to do something that is impossible for me to do. And able to do it with my husband, my husband, not hers<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Catnip even though we have a son together I too felt that immeasurable pain.<BR>All of ouur marriage my H would bring up how things would have been so much better if we had more children. I felt inadequate every time he said it. We'd argue about it frequently.<BR>When I found out about the A on d-day the thing that blindsided me was when he said she was pregnant. It felt like a hot knife through butter in my heart. I was inconsolable....<BR>Hence be careful what you wish for or you may get it. Just not in the way you wanted it to be.<BR>Like the old joke about the guy who found a jeanie in a bottle and wished for a bigger um.... er... male part, one that would drag on the ground...poof!! his legs were gone! And "it" dragged all right!<P>Now after all of this H doesn't feel the same about the oc...he realizes it won't be easy to see him anytime soon. He realizes when we do see him it's not like a normal Mom and Dad situation. OW is in Florida for the summer w/her h. She's threatened to move w/her husband to prevent us from seeing the c.(to Florida)<P>It's all ironic isn't it?<P>I accept finally ..ow says NO to me....H doesn't get anything but heartache from all that he's done!<P>He has said recently that if court says I can't set things up he'll drop the subject because it's just not worth hurting me anymore. He never wants to speak to her again for how she's behaved. He saw her in SOME kind of favorable light until she began acting crazy. It only made me look more desirable to him. I was the true grownup...ow is truly a spoiled brat! Sad huh??<P>Like the song says"You can't always get what you want""but you get what you need"<P>love<BR>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Catnip,<BR> <BR>I could not have said it better myself. Thank you for putting into words what I could not. You truly expressed how I, as a BS with fertility issues, feel about our situation. It is very difficult to put into words, but you did it and then some.<P>As for BTDT,<BR>It sounds as though you are not married. Am I misinterpreting that? If you are, I welcome you with open arms to our site and have learned in a short time to be prepared for opinions which differ from mine. If you are not married, I question why would you come to a site and a forum where women have come to try to rebuild their marriages which have been destroyed. Many by OW who are single and do not understand what the BS is going through. If you need to vent or feel the need to assist others and enlighten them, this may not be the forum for you. As Catnip said, if you can take the heat, then by all means, keep on cooking. If you can't, then you should probably find a forum more suitable for your needs.<BR>Since you are a Christian woman, maybe God led you here to give others insight. But as a Christian myself, I do not always correctly interpret where God is leading me versus where I may have misunderstood His intentions. Maybe God led you here to be enlightened by us....<P>Just my opinion.

Well, all I can say is that I truly have been enlightened.<P>I am married and trying to work on building a solid marriage that is affair-proof and as a single OW over 20 years ago, I DID realize the devastation I caused and I did my best not to interfere with the rebuilding of the MM's marriage. I prayed that their marriage would grow stronger as well as for their finances so that OC would never be a burden to their family. I was not in love nor trying to steal MM or anything like that. I was a slut. I knew I was wrong and I accepted responsibility for my wrong. I was a wayward Christian at the time--so then perhaps I was NOT a Christian after all, ey?? Jesus said if we love Him, we obey His commands...<P>The MM and his wife are still together and I never did nor said anything to interfere any further than I had already done. OC knows who his bio father is and they have spent time together over the years, but OC also knows that his stepfather is his real dad. OC and stepdad have a great relationship.<P>Catnip says I had no right to keep the baby, but I loved and wanted my baby. It wasn't his fault that his mommie behaved like a dirty slut. And it was a struggle because I raised him for 10 years on my own before I got married--5 without cs. The only reason I decided to ask for cs was because it took 2 to make the baby and the cs was for the oc and the oc alone. We had one court date and one only when the oc was 5 years old. He is grown now.<P>That's all I can say. Hope this answers your question about where I'm coming from. Now that I'm married and looking back over my life I KNOW I could not handle being involved in an ow/oc--esp if she attended my same church and felt she loved my h. YIKES! So again, I admire you all & continue pray for your strength.

OH and BTW, when I decided to keep the OC and raise him, I KNEW I could not do it without GOD in our lives. Sooo, that decision is what turned my (Christian) life around...<P>When he was 2, he said to me, "My daddy is nobody." He wasn't sad, it was just something he observed as he was in daycare and saw other kids' dads, etc. I told him that he had a Father in heaven who was the best daddy he could ever have... I knew my work was cut out to make up somehow for the pain I created.<P>It was hard, but life is hard. God toughens us up so life doesn't kill us. We grow in the tough times and then in the good times, we get to enjoy that growth. Just before every miracle or blessing comes an attack from the enemy to steal our faith and joy and hope.<P>So I just want to encourage you when it seems that you can't deal with another OW's stupid act, pray for her salvation because if she really wakes up (to God), she might see the light, and then you would be dealing with a different person altogether, IMHO... (pray for your enemies... when a man's ways please God, He makes his enemies to be at peace with him)

Dear BTDT,<P>I just want to tell you that I think it is wonderful that you turned your life over to God. Something good came out of the situation. Is your little boy old enough to understand yet? And if so how is he dealing with it?<P>Love in Christ,<BR>bw

Been There,<BR>You said your son's father has spent time with him over the years, yes? But not the wife? May I ask how contact is made between you, how it has worked on a practical level over the years? <P>I say this not just to be nosy but we don't get many cases here where someone has already lived through the whole process to the Child's adulthood! Let us draw on your experience. Like, at what point was your son kinda able to make his own times with his father and handle the relationship on his own? Did you have to talk to the wife about visitation or did the father call on you solo? Did he only see his son without his family, or is your son welcome in their home? If there was solo contac, did the X-MM ever try to renew his relationship with you?<P>I think what you are seeing here is that if there is going to be ANY visitation, we wives would mostly (not all) like that to be a family visitation. We want no contact between the former affairees and we want the relationship with OC to be as normal as possible, like a stepchild of a former marriage but without the affairees contact. Does that make sense? I don't hold anything against the child, but I don't want the XOW in our lives.<P>Godbless all,<BR>J

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by broken_wings:<BR><B>Is your little boy old enough to understand yet? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My son understood that he didn't have a daddy as a small baby (2 yrs). I don't think the pain of knowing this really set in until it surfaced in his school behavior--very angry and violent toward other kids--many social behavior issues. It probably would have been a good idea for me to retain him in kindergarten, but since he was reading at 2nd grade level, I refused--yet another solo decision that I regret. In any case, he survived. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by broken_wings:<BR><B>And if so how is he dealing with it?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He marches to his own drumbeat to this day (nonconformist social attitude, yet wholeheartedly embraces Christian beliefs). He works P/T, F/T student, pays his own tuition, carries a 4.0, lives at home, youth leader at church.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jenny:<BR><B>Been There,<BR>You said your son's father has spent time with him over the years, yes? But not the wife? May I ask how contact is made between you, how it has worked on a practical level over the years? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>MM either called or e-mailed to say he would like to see OC. Nothing personal between us would be discussed, just perhaps a brief update of what OC is currently involved in, any other notable achievements or problems as this would happen only once or twice a year.<P>One time MM & W came to take OC out for his 10th birthday. OC didn't tell me that W was coming! OMG! OC was like that, not that he purposely hid it from me, he just kept it to himself! Oh well, it WAS his business! :-/ It would have been nice if I could have been a little prepared, but alas, it was a shock and a surprise. <P>W may have assumed I knew she was coming, but I did not. Still, OC was at the door standing outside waiting while I peeked out, as was the usual custom. When I realized that MM & W were together, I invited them inside for a brief introduction to my H. I had only admiration for Ws courage and I can only imagine her unfavorable impression of me. We never saw her again.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jenny:<BR><B>at what point was your son kinda able to make his own times with his father and handle the relationship on his own? </B> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>We have finally arrived at that point now that OC is grown. MM called about 1.5 months ago and OC has not returned MMs phone call yet. Yesterday I asked OC why not and OC said he forgot. OC appears to have no animosity, but I did tell MM that OC is a very busy guy on the go, so expect to have difficulty catching up to OC. MM sent me an e-mail to get an update before he called OC. When MM called our home, OC was out and about so MM and I had a brief conversation on the phone. My husband was sitting right with me and I told him who was on the phone right then and there.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jenny:<BR><B>Did you have to talk to the wife about visitation or did the father call on you solo? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Solo. I only met MMs wife that one time which was over 10 years ago. It was my only opportunity to apologize to her face to face, but I was in such shock to see her. I was caught off-guard and couldn't think of the right thing to do in time... <P>If I could relive that evening, I would apologize. What would I have said? Well, when I shook her hand I would have grasped it with both of my hands, looked her deep in the eye and said, "I am so sorry for all the pain I have caused in your life." I have done this in prayer several times. It's all I can think of to do until such time that God ever sees fit to give me an opportunity to tell her in person.<P>If I sent MMs W an apology letter today, I'm not so sure it would make it into her hands. MM has kept us very isolated from MMs family and rightly so.<P>The way Sarah and Hagar's story ends is how *I* learned to accept that my being involved in MMs family would just never, never work. And I noticed, that Hagar's son, Ishmael was banished from Abraham's household as well...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jenny:<BR><B>Did he only see his son without his family, or is your son welcome in their home? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>MM came to see OC without his family. No, OC is not welcome in their home--never has been and probably never will be. I can't say for sure tho? It's up to the Lord, OC, MM and MMs family to all work that out. OC now has the opportunity to get questions answered, if any, and I'm leaving that between OC and MM. <P>As far as I'm concerned, WE don't have any "right" to be overly involved in MMs family. MMs family has a right to live in peace and without any further complications. The situation is complicated enough! My H and I have both just tried to emphasize over the years where OCs "home" is, where OC is loved and wanted 100%--right here with me and stepdad and his twin siblings. OC seems very secure in knowing this.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jenny:<BR><B>If there was solo contac, did the X-MM ever try to renew his relationship with you?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>YES! when OC was a baby, which is another reason I plead with wives (IMHHHHO), that it is unsafe for Hs to be interacting with OW as they were sexually attracted to each other prior to OCs birth!!! (Regardless of how meaningless or short-lived the A was...) We might be able to trust our husbands and ourselves, but we CANNOT afford to trust the devil.<P>If I didn't get myself right with God for OCs sake, and endeavor to stay right with God, I likely would have continued PA with MM. Sadly, I think MM would have been happy to continue as well. But you know, deep in my heart, I realize it would be a slap in Jesus' face if I gave the devil that pleasure. I'm ever grateful to the Lord for His forgiveness and blessings in our lives.<P>Another thing I forgot to mention was that I DID use a supposedly "effective form" of birth control!!! I was NOT in love, nor trying to get myself pregnant, however, since I had an abortion a few years before, I knew I couldn't ever do that again. Adoption never crossed my mind for some reason? Looking back, I just felt at the time that I should face the consequences of my decisions. Period. <P>It would have been so simple to hide it by aborting. Just think, I could save my self-respect! But in whose eyes? The eyes of society? You know, just have MY peace resting in someone else's head? Nope, I couldn't do it. I faced my family and church members and co-workers--everyone--and all the guilt and shame that went along with my decision. It was rough but I knew I did the right thing for me.<P>Plus, adoptive 2-parent families also end in divorce, so stability is not fully guaranteed even in that situation.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jenny:<BR><B>I think what you are seeing here is that if there is going to be ANY visitation, we wives would mostly (not all) like that to be a family visitation. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The marital trust has been compromised. Ws need to protect the nest and rightly so. I admire your courage and strength.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jenny:<BR><B>We want no contact between the former affairees and we want the relationship with OC to be as normal as possible, like a stepchild of a former marriage but without the affairees contact. Does that make sense? I don't hold anything against the child, but I don't want the XOW in our lives.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Makes perfect sense to me. Hs can rebuild the trust in the marriage by applying Harley principles, but should probably not be trusted around the OW!!!!!! ABSOLUTELY NO CONTACT! That is Harley's advice when there is no OC, and for some reason, I can't seem to get away from feeling it's right EVEN IF there is an OC.<P>Why do OW give such grief and battle for control with Ws? Is the reason because they are "in love" with the MM? Feel "entitled" just because they conceived MMs child? Long for the MM to leave his family and run away with them? Who knows? Rather than to feel remorseful and repentant, or even THANKFUL that Ws take an interest in OC, OW cause strife? Sounds real fishy to me... On the other hand, maybe they are afraid that Ws will abuse OC in some way? Maybe they fear that because Ws hate OW so much that OC will incur some of Ws wrath? Just another guess as to why be witchy? I am basically clueless... <P>In any case, we are promised to have peace in the middle of all of life's storms. God's peace and His power go together. Never let the enemy steal your peace due to OW crappy attitude/behaviors. It's an opportunity to hide in God and like Psalm 91 says, "Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked..." I wish you well!<p>[This message has been edited by BINthereDUNthat (edited July 18, 2001).]

Dear BTDT,<P>I thank you for sticking around through some rough welcomes here and I for one am glad you did. I have always wanted to meet someone who did this years ago and can give a 20/20 perspective. I am so glad your son has turned out so well. You must be proud of him. Thanks for answering all the questions. You are a wonderful example for most OWs. I wish the rest would get a clue. We have had a few "ow"s come here and they have proven themselves respectable and then even admirable and I am glad we have there insight. I just wanted to let you know I have gained a new respect for you and am happy to hear your thoughts.<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>broken_wings

BTDT,<P>I also am glad that you have stuck around, however, there was something that you said that hit me kind of hard. It was when you stated that you decided to raise your son, and face the consequenses, right after you said that you didn't even consider adoption. The reason it hit me is I have put a child up for adoption, and it doesn't make it any easier, emotionally. Yes, I know that there are no guarantees that a marriage will not end in divorce, but if people were so concerned about that, just to avoid pregnancy, the human race would have ended thousands of years ago! The couple I gave my baby to was close to the pastor that I grew up with(as my pastor, not as a parent) and trusted with all my heart. They had been through years of infertility treatments, and adoption waiting lists. As well as having at least TWO babies in their arms, that the birth mother changed her mind during the 72 hour waiting period before the papers were signed! When I heard their story, I knew that was what I had to do. The point I am getting at is that I still had to live with the shame of getting pregnant out of wedlock(granted, it wasn't by a MM, in fact it was with my H, but we were too young, and he was still in HS), going through the pregnancy, giving birth, and then not having a baby around to raise. Trust me, those are very painful consequenses, which is one of the reasons that H and I decided to raise Abbi as our own child. As for the XOMM, as far as I know, he doesn't even know that I was pregnant, and hopefully never will. Reading your post, about how your son was when he fully realized he didn't have a Daddy(obviously before you got married) just confirms my decision to not tell OM. I will tell Abbi about her parentage, as far as genetically, but that her "Daddy" is and always has been my H.<P>Another thing that has sat on my mind from another of your posts is that you left it up to your S to decide if he would be adopted by your H. Did you ask XMM? I know that I had a friend who married a woman with a young child. This child never knew his natural father, due to the abuse in the marriage, and the woman not wanting any further contact. She did not receive CS of any kind. When she looked into the legal requirements for new H to adopt her S, she had to have XH's permission. I know that could have stopped your H from adopting as well, but it would have stopped CS for your S. That would have lifted a burden for the MM and his W, did you ever think of that? How old was your S when he was asked about being adopted? Just curious.<P>Well, I gotta go, Abbi's fussing and I need to get her ready for her 4 month well baby check-up. I hope you don't see this as me bashing you, I just had some things that hit me and wanted to let you know that giving a child up for adoption does not relieve you of the pain or the feelings you talk about.<P>Tigger

Dear Binthere,<BR>THank you for your replies and for staying despite the rocky beginning (ditto brokenwings)! Your kind comments in agreement with what we are trying to do and your experiences are like a breath of fresh air. Every time we get someone like you, we will say "if only *our* XOW could be like you!!"<P>Godbless.<BR>Saying it again,<BR>J, in recovery 3+years

BTDT,<P>I wanted to echo the other women that have recently posted to this thread. I was one of the women who contributed to your "cold" reception to this forum. And am glad we have had the opportunity to hear more of your situation and opinions.<P>But quite honestly in your first few posts you seemed to be in an offensive stance against a W who chose to support her husbands choice to be involved with OC and include OC in their family.<P>In this thread you mentioned several times that the H should have NO contact with OW. You stated the temptation of the devil would be too great. <P>Forgive me if I sound like I'm bashing, but you also suggested to one of our members that she allow her H to persue visitation with the OC without the W's envolvement. Short of an outside third party envolvement in the "exchange" of the OC, the H would be forced to have physical and verbal contact with the OW. Thus opening the door of temptation by the devil. <P>This directly contradicts your stance on NO contact with OW.<P>I guess your two contradictory perspectives have confused me. I welcome any clarification you might offer.<P>Z.<P><P>------------------<BR>Zebra Baby ...<P>Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Hi all,<BR>Thank YOU for sticking with me and giving me another chance. <P>First thing, let me just say that it has been difficult to answer questions with clarity that I have not fully pondered before. After having been further enlightened by what I have read out here, I can see how W involvement is absolutely necessary, esp. in the cases of EAs, with H having no contact with OW. Either way, it's a difficult task raising the OC, but God is here to help us and strengthen us and harden us to life's difficulties so we can enjoy our trip to heaven!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tigger4jdt:<BR><B>I have put a child up for adoption, and it doesn't make it any easier, emotionally. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Please forgive me if my statements about adoption hurt you tigger. Let me explain. When I got pregnant with my OC I never considered adoption and I didn't know why? After thinking about WHY, I came up with an answer and it is similar to your reasons for having the passion for Abbi that you do--because of what you had been through.<P>I read something interesting today, it said, "Character is what we do the third and fourth times." Interesting, huh? <P>I mentioned that adoptive families break up just like other families because I have a divorced friend who raised her adopted son alone and she struggled so hard, so I apologize if that sounded insensitive. I didn't say that to try and justify anything I have done, either. <P>I have a niece who was given up for adoption and I pray that she's living a quality life. I was there when we handed her over to her new family. She was only 5 lbs.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tigger4jdt:<BR><B>The point I am getting at is that I still had to live with the shame of ... very painful consequenses, which is one of the reasons that H and I decided to raise Abbi as our own child. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm feelin' you here... I cannot imagine what you went through emotionally, but you knew what you had to do... God confirmed His will in your life as well by providing a stable, loving Christian family for the baby. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tigger4jdt:<BR><B>Another thing that has sat on my mind from another of your posts is that you left it up to your S to decide if he would be adopted by your H. Did you ask XMM? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, because after OC said he preferred not to share our family name (he was 10), we didn't pursue. It was stepdad's insistence that we leave it up to OC. IF we did pursue the adoption, I'm positive that MM would have been supportive.<P>The way we handled the CS and taxes was like this: MM and W deducted OC as their dependant. I filed as head of household. That was my way of somewhat 'lifting their burden' financially...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zebrababy:<BR><B>But quite honestly in your first few posts you seemed to be in an offensive stance against a W who chose to support her husbands choice to be involved with OC and include OC in their family.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think it seemed offensive because my ignorance wasn't showing through my words and believe me it was there. I was more like, why put yourselves through the torture of dealing with these OW when they seem like all they are out to do is destroy your marriage, dictate their demands, wreak havoc, manipulate your husbands, ruin your good moods, and all of the above? I am a wife who was thinking to myself, WHO NEEDS ALL THAT STRIFE?! <P>Isn't it bad enough that you are recovering from an A, as well as applying the ongoing, indefinite process of building a healthy marriage? So my original posts were pleading with you to FORGET THEM AND THEIR KIDS! You know, if they can't be grateful for your gracious involvement, and they are making you miserable and frustrated, then they need to get out of your lives. <P>BUT.... God has corrected me and I accept the fact that you guys really do love the OCs MORE than you hate dealing with the OWs bad attitudes and behaviors. <P>So now, I'm totally blown away. I hope that clarifies my position on contact with OW.<P>Of course, every person's situation is different and I may not answer each post with the same position. We have to be flexible because only God knows what we all can and cannot take. God will lead us into His path of peace and power.<p>[This message has been edited by BINthereDUNthat (edited July 19, 2001).]

Dear BTDT,<P>Thank you for answering my questions. I wasn't so much offended myself, just a little confused as to your reasonings for your decisions. It is now much clearer to me. Like you have said in other posts, God brought you hear for a reason, and I have a feeling it is because your son is now of legal majority, and you have been through the whole process that most of these women are just now starting.I think that you will be yet another of those who we will all look to when those difficulties arrise in our situations.<P>Again, thank you for hanging around, and answering all our questions so openly and honestly.<P>Tigger