Catnip, and Beenthere, I am really sorry if you think I was spoiling for a fight.I assure you that was not my intention in my post on my thread to flowerseed. I was merely trying to get the point across that we are happy with our involvement. So why bother trying to suggest that my h handle it all alone. And my children are also very happy with their half silbing. I really did not care for the post on a thread started by tina, and that, combined with my defessiveness about all the negativity the ow gives us and then to suggest not to be involved, well it was like my bomb exploded. We, my h and I have a lot of issues and concerns for the oc, to many to get into now. His physical and mental health are concerns so to even suggest to not both be involved,upset me, and I would never want my h to have to handle it on his own. I am his partner and will help him whenever I can. I like being there for him in all this mess. He needs me and counts on my support. I really feel for this child, he is my family's blood relative, although not mine, I hope he grows up happy and healthy and I just can not , not be involved. So sorry for the defensiveness, but I truely was not picking a fight just feeling I had to make my position clearer with my family and the oc. Thanks for listening, Peace, Gabi1116<p>[This message has been edited by gabi1116 (edited July 16, 2001).]

just bringijng this to the top. Gabi1116

Gabi:<P>Just got on board after a couple days absence and saw your thread. <P>I truly understand how you feel and empathize completely. I, too, am suspicious of OW's when they first post here. We have had many unfriendly OW's start a lot of heartburn here and we are all on alert.<P>I now know you weren't really spoiling for a fight but were feeling defensive, and rightly so. But, I think we should all take what OW's say with a grain of salt and not let their opinions upset us too much. Tough to do, I know. I like to come out swinging sometimes when they touch a nerve.<P>The support you are giving your lucky husband is so incredibly commendable...well, you're a better person than I because I know I could not do it, nor am I inspired to do it. But then, I am a lot older than you are and have become very jaded and cynical over the past three years since all this started. I just don't have the energy or the inclination to put myself out any further than taking him back and making a home with him and trying to get some semblance of normalcy back into our/my life.<P>From my perspective, in my particular situation, it is all I can do to just deal with him and all his problems and I certainly do not think he is worthy of my taking care of or involving his OC into our lives. I raised his two children from his previous marriage for twenty years and it was a thankless job. I'm not about to do it again. We have grandchildren older than OC and our adult children do not know of OC and I don't want them to ever find out.<P>It seemed to me at the time of the betrayal that he had used me to be the pack horse, the drone, the convenient house nanny with whom he also had sex privileges and I became bitter in a hurry. It was a lop-sided, imbalanced relationship, looking back on it now.<P>If you can trust you husband is truly appreciative of your huge heart and grateful for the kindness and love you give OC and is completely remorseful for what he did to you and your family, and if he is humbled by your support and generousity, I say, give it all you got, Girl. You will benefit from this immensely. But, he must be completely and totally committed to you and fly right from this moment forward.<P>It is my "Chump Factor" that keeps me from being too generous and doing more or giving more than what I get. However, I still love to do more than required simply because it makes me feel good and because my husband is in turmoil and pain most of the time and desperately needs forgiveness and kindness.<P>The OW who gave you the business about focusing on your family and ignoring the OC/OW was confusing in the sense that most OW's clamor for more attention and make ridiculous demands for special privileges. BTDT was a little different and because I am one who subscribes to the same mindset when it comes to OC involvement, her opinions didn't rattle my chain. But, I can see that it would bother someone who was trying to make the sacrifice and be inclusive and making a big happy family.<P>What I am trying to say is, there are two camps of thoughts on this subject and while the saintly types make people like me look heartless, selfish and hard, I still make no apologies for how I think or feel. We all have such different backgrounds and so many different stories that I feel it imperitive we accept each other's point of view and if we wish to debate the issues, we can do so without getting combative.<P>Gabi, you're a really inspiring woman and it does gall me that I can't or won't be able to be like you or cd or Gem or Mrs. Job and be so giving and kind. Believe it or not, I used to be like you until this happened. I guess I was so traumatized by the betrayal and so destroyed when I learned some stranger was going to have my husband's child...something I can never do, it really did something to me. It is like aversion therapy or something. Just the thought of what they did and what came from it, makes me ill to think of it even now. I don't know if I will ever really get over it. Just yesterday I spent a couple hours crying over it alone on the deck...not just a few tears but the shoulder shaking sobs of real grief. I hate that. I was doing so well. It's been almost three years, for God's sake.<P>It is so weird that I can go for months now without giving it much thought, and then...BAM. There it is again. I think what got to me yesterday was that here we are in hiding, because of what he did. Here we are where he cannot work for a legitimate employer and be on record with the powers that be, that we have had to alter and adjust our entire lives because of what he did and we have to lie to our family and be vague and elusive. Because of what he did.<P>I've been so busy...blessedly busy just trying to survive that I don't have a lot of time to think like I did yesterday. I find those long rides to work alone on those abandoned highways give me ample time to ruminate. And now, I have been reliving and rehashing things to provide an outline for Bystander, so I've been in the Way Back Machine.<P>I knew when I agreed to do the time line with Bystander that I would have to relive that first horrible year and just suck it up. I knew I could handle it, I knew there would be tears and resentments surfacing, I guess I just didn't relaize that I really wasn't over all this like I thought I was. But, that's OK. It will be kind of cathartic going through it one last time before I put it behind me for good.<P>So, don't be mad at me for defending BTDT's POV. At the risk of sounding like treason or pitching my tent in the enemy camp, I have my very valid reasons for being the way I am about all this, just as you have your reasons for doing what you are doing. Neither of us are right or wrong as long as we do what is right for us and our particular situation.<P>You're a Sweet Peach, Gabi, and maybe in my next life I will be more like you.<P>Love<P>Catnip =^^=

Well Catnip what can I say? With a post like that you have brought tears to my eyes. I am glad we were able to get all this cleared up, I feel alot better. I must tell you though I do not really know if you know how old I am. I am thirty nine and I feel like I am starting to get to the top of that hill, and make the over the hill hike. I think that if things had been different when I found out about the oc I would not have been so giving as I am now. I really do not even now if I would have stayed with my H. I found out at one of the best times in my life, we were house shopping, had just opened a successful business, and I waw expecting our second child. I cried for days, and weeks, all the time, then I decided on day that I was not going to let this tramp who had a one night stand, with my stupid drunk h ruin my life. That was exactly what she was trying to do , she told me about the oc herself to push all my buttons and I was not letting her push them Seh really caught me at the wrong time, and now the more she pushes the harded I dig my heels in the ground. However, actually, when I first found out, and for a little over a year or more I was very clear and head strong about wanting no contact. I said horrible things about the ow and oc and to my h and called them both terrible things. I did not want either of them anywhere near my child or the child I was carrying. Sometime after my second child, my little girl was born, my thoughts and feeling started to change in relation to the kids. I became worried about what my children would think of my h and I when they found out, because I felt as they grew eventually they would. I started to think about the oc alot, and even started to worry about him, as I learned more about his life. I know exactly how you and other dear people on this forum feel the way they do about no contact, as for almost two years I felt the same way. I find nothing wrong with the way you feel, act, or live your life. We all have to do what we feel is right for ourselves and those close to us. I really think what my h and I are doing will benefit our children, ourselves and the oc. I do think that what you and others that feel the same way are also doing what you all have to, to benefit in life. My h tells me all the time how lucky he his, my children are lucky too he is a great father, and I am also lucky too. He is sweet, loving, hardworking, and very dedicated. I am happy that I choose to stay in my marriage and work all this out and I am extra happy to have found this forum and wonderful people like you. And I would not worry about your next life I think all you have done for your h and your family in this life makes you just as sweet of a peach. Thanks again for the support and wonderful words. Peace, Gabi1116

Gabi:<P>You know, I wonder about OC, too, and think of her and wish her well simply because she is part of my husband who I deeply love in spite of his problems. And occasionally I have wondered if she would have been born early in our marriage when our kids were young, I might have felt a little differently and incorporated her into my life. I can't speculate at this point in our lives because things were so different between us back then.<P>Sometimes I think that I wouldn't have stayed with him if he would have done this to me then because I would have been twenty years younger (with more options)than I am today and since we could not have children together and were raising a blended family, I might have just cut my losses and moved on. It is hard to say. I never thought I would ever be able to stay under any of these circumstances and yet, here I am. In fact it seems as though we have an enormous amount of challenges that are pretty staggering.<P>I really long for those twenty years of complete and total fidelity. Being able to count on him and trust him, knowing he was madly in love with me and feeling that all encompassing joy of knowing to the bone, he wanted no one else but me...oh, how I wish....<P>Truth be told, I am not much of a 'mommy' type anyway although my daughter thinks I am wonderful and hilarious, but then, she was easy from the time I met her when she was 6. She said maybe I wasn't the conventional mommy but she delighted in the fact I would drag her around with me and take her to off beat places filled with colorful people. She had great fun anyway and so did I.<P>My daughter is driving twelve hours by herself to visit us on Wednesday for a few days! We haven't seen her in almost a year and we are so excited to see her. It was her birthday yesterday, she turned 29 and she's our youngest!!! Makes me feel so old!<P>Gabi, I certainly can see and have noticed that the women here who have small children are more inclined to welcome the OC into their lives, especially if they are in the same town. It makes it so much easier I would think, to do this because in a gaggle of children, one hardly notice if there are three or four of them and THAT can seem like a cast of thousands!<P>Happy bonding, Gabi...may all your dreams come true.<P>Love<P>Catnip =^^=<P>

Catnip, Enjoy your visit with your daughter, it sure sounds like you are excited to see her. It is funny how the joy in our words are so easy to read over the forum. It really sounds like you have a great relationship with her, just by the description of her trip and when she was young. On another note, as you said a lot of younger woman here do tend to accept the oc. The oc lives about 15-20 minutes away, and at first it was hard going places, believe me unlike what you said everyone noticed. I was worried about what people would think for awhile. Being on the forum and reading about all the lives of those here I realized many people have issues and mine not that bad. I will make the best of it. What really made me not care anymore about what other people thougth was I examined all those that I thought would have a comment and their lives were not perfect, so the heck with them. I decided no one should judge me until they looked in the mirror. My community is very gosippy. Then my friend's husband left her and she was 12 weeks preganant. Just when you think your life has sadness then for this to happen to her, I had to stop feeling sorry for myself and stop worring what others thought. Sorry to go on just wanted to share how I really do not care what others think, now, but believe me everyone noticed our new addition. Peace, Gabi1116

I saw a "BTDT" and decided to butt in so I hope it's okay with you guys.<P>I agree catnip is a jewel and I have already stated this but worth saying again that I know I would not be able to handle an ow/oc in my life. She made her bed, sleep in it. I feel that way because that was my attitude toward myself when I decided to act slutty.<P>Looking back on how I was "received" in this forum, and as I continue praying for all you moms out there helping to raise the OC's, I spend a lot of time crying on your behalves. Adultery is one thing and perhaps can be forgotten, but when an OC is there with needs, there is no forgetting...<P>I thought that was beautiful how Mina's husband said that her tears are because of how he broke her heart... what a wonderful thing to say... Now, it's time for God to heal all this pain. On behalf of all the OW who are acting like wicked witches from the west, please forgive me on their behalf. For everything they have done to hurt you, please accept my apology.<P>I am praying that if call themselves "in love" with your husbands, that they will fall out of love and move on with their lives. I'm praying that God is easing your pain moment by moment and healing your deepest wounds.<P>And catnip, you know, even if you did have 20 years of "faithfulness," guess what? Jesus said even if we look at someone of the opposite sex to lust after them, we have committed adultery in our hearts, so there is no guarantee that your spouse would have been totally faithful to you anyways. You know? God is faithful. We can depend on Him and Him alone. He is with you on those long drives and He wants to give you big BIG hugs. Ask Him for one... I'm sooo praying for you!<P>To God, lust is just as bad as the act. The inner thought is just as bad as the outward act in God's eyes. This is why we must let God heal our hurts so it doesn't turn into angry outrage. We can be angry, but not to the point where it turns into the sin of murder. God will get revenge for us if we handle things His way, desirous to please Him. When you are doing your best and it seems like your best is not enough, tie a knot at the end of your rope and hang on. He will rescue us as many times as we need rescuing. Keep the faith! Love & Prayers from the night shift...