OK, I posted a while back that H was having second thoughts about his choice to be involved in OC's life.<P>Two nights ago we had a deep conversation (he initiated) regarding how he was feeling about OC. We had OC for the previous weekend (actually only one day and night). OW was pissed and nagging H and I about only having her one day. She was trying to pull the guilt trip on him about neglecting his daughter.<P>Anyway in the convo he talked about how he was considering cutting out visitation indefinately. I was pretty shocked to say the least. He talked about how he felt like he was babysitting someone elses child and felt no bond to her. He also said he was sick and tired of OW's B.S., nagging and whinning. He reiterated he was only toying with the idea.<P>Well The very next day OW calls to tell us she has a weekend job that is out of town. She asks us to watch OC for the weekend starting Friday thru Sunday night. (I personally don't believe the job story, I think she just wants us to take OC because her other three illigitimate children have been shipped to NY until August.) <P>H was speachless on the phone. I was on the line and could barely keep from laughing out loud. H said he'd call her back and promptly fell asleep.<P>That was yesterday. Today he told her that he would not watch OC for the weekend and that he was ending visitiation indefinately. He explained all what he told me. <P>The whore calls me at work to tell me this: All crying trying to get my sympathy. I just listened at first. Then she went into this dialouge: I can't believe he could reject his child after kissing my belly and listening to her when she was inside and hugging her when she was three days old and making the promise to never leave her.<P>Ladies.... I lost my top. I laid into her sooooo hard. I said: You know people make promises every day. You, me and he have broken promises in our lives. My husband promised in front of God, me, his pastor, his family and his friends to be faithful to me. He broke that promise. And people can feel one thing one day and another the next. In fact all those months he was f***ing you he was coming home to me and wispering "I love you" in my ear while making love to me.<P>She didn't like that one bit. She went on a rant about how could he choose me over her child. This surprised me. He had never mentioned anything about me in our convo two nights previous. I fished for more info. Apparantly he told her that one other reason was because everytime I held or looked at OC I had sadness in my eyes and he couldn't take it anymore. He had to do something to make that sadness go away once and for all.<P>Then she gets all weepy again saying she hopes my life and my family's is filled with love and that H and I grow closer together and she'll pray for my kids... yadda yadda.<P>I spoke with H when he got home to confirm that he wasn't just doing this for me. I can understand and appreciate it being partially for me, but that he should never ever do it soley on that point. I told him that I could get used to her in time and that sadness would go away. He said no it won't because she being in our lives will always remind me.<P>We cried together.<P>So ladies, I am officially on the other team of not having visitation. Apart of me is happy and another is sad.<P>Either way. I'll support my H in whatever decision he makes. <P>So that's my news.<P>Z.<P>------------------<BR>Zebra Baby ...<P>Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

zebrababy, your H is a wise man. He sees how he has hurt you, and wants you to start healing. H must love you very much. My H also chose no visitation. It has helped somewhat. Otherwise, I do not think we would still be married. Now H can concentrate on you, and your marriage with no more distractions. Wishing you and H the best. ember

Hey Girl,<BR>We are headed for the same thing. I just told H after this church bulletin **** I don't want to deaal w/her and baby for now. Let HER bring it up!<P>H agreed...we will not know a thing till late aug....<P>Congrats Zebra!!!!!!<BR>Love<BR>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Wow Zebra, these women NEVER GET IT. May God guide us all, contact and no contact alike. <P>Best wishes to you and your family!<BR>(don't know why I couldn't see this post earlier--it just wasn't there)<BR>J

Hey Z I couldnt find it either was really wondering for a moment. I thought you meant the ow team he he he just kidding (sick tonight isnt I). I think you gave it your best shot you have been dealing with way more then I would ever even wanted to think of putting up with. Things will be much better for your family I really believe that. with love flowerseed

Consider yourself hugged, if I may offer one...<P>I'm sure it will all work out for everyone involved--everyone. I'm praying for you.<P>Just to add my 2cents, I think it would have been perfectly fine if he did it just for you. You're his wife and you're worth it. IMHHHHO, it should have been up to you all along! (It's not W vs. OC, it's W vs. OW!!!)<P>

Dear Zebrababy,<P>I appreciate your story. You have definately tried<BR>your very best to include the oc. <P>I hope the very best for you and family!<P>Love, fluke

Dear sweet Z:<P>Whether to have contact or not...to be or not to be...each is a tough choice. whichever side of the fence we are all on, the choice is very, very difficult. But sometimes we are given signs from above to guide us the route we are to go.<P>Not to second guess God or His motives, but, you and your husband have been going through an extremely difficult time. Perhaps the true colors were revealed to motivate the two of you to concentrate on each other and focus on your marriage.<P>I agree with BTDT that even if your husband chose to terminate contact, whether it be forever or for now, because of you, that is certainly the best reason in the world. Because, without a united, committed marriage, nothing else matters...it is the bedrock and the foundation of your family and nothing takes precedence over that. Remember what I told you repeatedly about Retrouvaille...the officiating priest stated the only obligation a WS has to an OC is financial...emotional support is not mandated as the OW made all the choices without consulting you or anyone else and therefore, the OC is her responsibility. You have been raped into step parenthood and therefore it is YOUR call and your husband's call to determine if contact is a good thing or a bad idea for your family.<P>Heal your marriage first. Get stronger and more settled with each other before you incorporate an OC into your lives. At this point, OC is too young to know the difference, although I understand about infant bonding and all, but this is not your problem...the blame of whether or not there is contact lies with the despicable and self-serving OW who selfishly decided to keep a child she could not afford, provide for or bestow advantages upon. It is so disgusting and sick that society and the courts allow this travesty, it is beyond my comprehension.<P>Now, Z, focus on your husband and your marriage and let the healing begin. Do not give into misplaced guilt about something you had nothing to do with and if your husband cites you as the reason for his change of heart, I say rejoice...he has finally put you at the top of his priority list where you belong. Never doubt this decision is divine intervention.<P>You and only you SHOULD be the reason your husband chooses you over the OC. You DO come first, always, without question. You are his life partner and take precedence over anything or anyone else...as stated throughout the Bible. Everything else follows.<P>Someday, down the road, when the two of you are totally cemented in and have healed and grown, you'll both have something to offer OC that will not diminish the two of you. In the meantime, focus, focus, focus.<P>Love<P>Catnip =^^=<p>[This message has been edited by catnip (edited July 20, 2001).]

Dear Z,<P>Could I borrow someone's else name for just a moment? BeenThereDoneThat. We too have ended visitation. About 3 months ago it became clear that the visitation meant that ex-OW felt she had a right to call my husband daily and he felt guilted into spending hours a week on the phone trying to keep her calmed down enough for visitation to go ahead.<BR>(She found it too difficult to see me; it was a reminder of all she lost. Pretty funny since you figure I was big enough to face my losses and see her and OC, but hey go figure! OWs are rather confused at this point in their lives.)<P>Now H calls the OC when she is being babysat by her maternal grandmother. He gets updates on OC and gets to babble at her for a few minutes. The advantage is ex-OW is at work and both OW and H can avoid each other.<P>I know how you felt about conflicting emotions regarding ending visitation. I bonded with OC and I miss her. I would rather be part of her life, but ex_OWs behavior doesn't permit that right now. I agree with all who have said that the marriage must take priority. I just wish there were room for both.<P>Consider yourself hugged if I may. You have been through so much. Take a little time to catch your breath; you deserve a rest from all the turmoil. It is wonderful to have a marriage that is healing, isn't it?<P>Love, MJ

Dear Zebrababy,<P>Your h is truly love you and he is sorry for the pain he has cause you. He wants you to start healing. <P>You and your h were willing to incorporate oc, in your lives, it didn't work that way, now let ow worry about oc, and concentrate in your marriage. <P>Best wishes to you and your family.<P>with love mina<BR>

Dear Z,<P>You and your H keep getting better and better ...<P>I always believed that with my own H the reason he wanted the OC so much was because in the beginning it was something I would not allow him. Once I came to his side and agreed to him visiting the OC, he lost interest. He got worn down by some of the same things that your H experienced, particularly the constant whining and complaining of the OW and the constant bending to her wishes.<P>Sometimes it takes a bit of time for them to realize what they have, but when they finally get it, it is truly a wonderful thing. Your H sounds like he is completely out of the fog and back under your spell!<P>I know what you mean about partly feeling sad. I still wonder about my OC and it pulls at my heart, especially now, that she is being raised without the influence of a wonderful man like her bio father. But it is a passing thought -- one that comes and goes and is quickly replaced by the joy of our own family, the love that we share and the familiarity we have with each other.<P>May God continue to bless you and your H, Zebra. You are walking with Him now and I don't think anything can stop you...<P>love,<BR>heavenly

God I just love you women. I feel soooooo warm when I read your fabulously supportive posts. I love the way you talk through what I was and am feeling about this whole fiasco.<P>I remember reading a post about how husbands often come to the realization that contact is what they chose out of guilt. I don't regret one minute of supporting that choice even if it was a fruit of guilt. Because now that he's done it, experienced it he will never ever have to say he never gave it a shot. He will never have regrets that he didn't even try. And he hasn't closed himself off to the possibility of reintroducing her to our family at a much later date. <P>When that time comes I will support him again. I think the fact that I supported the initial choice spoke volumes of my love for him, and he recognized it. And with all we've been through, all the pain we caused each other, that gesture of love went a long way with him.<P>Ember thank you for your sweet words.<P>Gem, i feel like you and I are living parallel lives. We keep following one another in milestones. Amazing, isn't it? <P>Jenny, no, they just don't seem to get it. She honestly and truely believed that her daughter was entitled to his love just because she existed. Late last night when H and I were reflecting on his convo with her he told me that she made a comment that he supports me while I try to be the best parent I can be, why can't he support her to be the best parent she can be. He simply stated, because she's my wife and you are not. Truely amazing how these women think that just because they have used our husband's sperm they are entitled to the priviledges of being a wife. Hello, wake up, you support someone to be the best they can be because you love them. I guess she hasn't figured out that he doesn't love her. Stupid stupid girl.<P>Flowerseed, I don't think I could live with myself if I defected to THAT team! I couldn't stoop that low if I were melted icecream on a NY street in the middle of July. (no offense Tigger, Oberrati & BTDT) <P>BTDT, Of course you may offer a hug. And I'll gladly accept it. I think after your loud and rough entrance you have got a feel for what we are about here. Support, love, a listening ear and available to give and get advice when it's asked for. The most precious thing about this haven is that no one is judged for the choices or paths they take. What a blessing to have unconditional love by each and every member here. We've all earned that love with each other by treating one another with the kindness and respect we all want in return. I believe you too are willing to give that same kind of love, and in return you will receive it. Thank you for keeping an open mind and not being judgemental. It is appreciated.<P>Fluke, thank you for not blasting me for making my stories so long. I am a story teller at heart. I don't think a story is complete unless you can feel like you were sitting there watching it on a screen. LOL. And yes, I did try my best with accepting OC. And I was willing to continue trying. And as I've stated before, it's his child and his choice. My job is to stand by his side. Just like I'd want him to do for me.<P>And last but certainly not least, my dear Catnip. Why oh wise woman you do have such a beautiful way with words. I swear if I could only write as gracefully as you, Heavenly and CD. I guess I have been sooooo accustomed to being farther down the list on his priority list, I feel a little uncomfortable when I'm at the top. My self esteem has taken a beating from this whole thing. I guess being at the top will take some getting used to. Hey, but you know what.... I like it here! <P>Prayer, faith, love, you women & wellbutrin have all helped me begin true healing. I can finally see the future possibilities for this family. And boy oh boy is it bright.<P>I bought my H flowers today. I told him it was our anniversary. He looked at me strange. And I told him it has been three weeks since we've fought and have begun filling our lives with love. He scooped me up and hug me for a long long time. That's a great place to be.<P>Thank you thank you all for your warm words. I often think I would have perished if I had to do this madness without you all.<P>Z.<P>------------------<BR>Zebra Baby ...<P>Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Zebrababy,<BR>Your post has given me alot to think about. Before I came to this site, I believed my only choice in God's eyes was to support as much visitation with oc as possible. I have even gotten into the habit of initiating visitation. It has already been set up for every other weekend, but we were thinking about more. I have often felt that H wasnt crazy about the amount of time we were spending with oc. He works 60 hours a week and doesnt have much time for himself as it is, now with the oc, it is even less. <BR>I have grown to love oc dearly, but sometimes think it is only because I want a child of my own so badly. The more I come to this site, the more I realize how many more options I have. I also feel like I cannot be first, but after reading everyone's responses, I now say **** that! I will not continue to push for further visitation. Every other weekend is even more than some fathers give who were there from day one in a marriage with the mother. I still believe this child is an innocent who deserves to have his father, but not at the expense of my H sanity or my well being. I thank you all for allowing me to give this to God and just sit back a little. Sometimes attacking it all head on is NOT the way to go. <BR>Thank you....and maybe I should change my name too....tryin4sainthood <BR>

You know I am happy for you guys Z....<P>I just wanted to agree with Tryinforsainthood...and I too have BeenthereDoneThat..hehe..when I found this place I thought there was no other choice...that if I chose to forgive H I had to accept oc. I think God led me here to show me that it was not my fault and that this was my family not hers. I was feeling guilty about oc and sometimes I still fight with that, considering we do not even pay cs. Ow dropped her own case so I figure that is her own stupidity. I jsut pray it does not backfire on us someday. But at times I do still feel bad. But at least now I realize how much of a gray area this is and it is not all black and white. No real right or wrong about it. The wrong was already done and now is time to right it. Well I guess I have blabbered on enough about this for now anyways.<BR>Love<BR>bw<BR>Love ya Z!!!!

Wow!! I am glad I visited today and saw this post. It's been two years since D-day for me, and I have struggled most with the guilt I feel for the OC. My H, despite visiting the OC before I found out, does not want to do the visitation thing, since I found out. He's only seen him once in two years! Lately, I have been getting more and more depressed over feeling like I am the one holding my H back from visiting. My H has told me he doesn't feel like this is his child, compared to our children. He has no love, just guilt. He doesn't care if we ever start the visitation process, because, like you, he knows that it rips my heart out, despite my encouragements for him to visit. He doesn't want to do that to me. I have just started on antidepressants, in the hopes that they will finally bring me out of this continuous slide downward, emotionally. I still want him to get a DNA test no matter what final decision he makes. <P>Just wondering, but when you all have decided against no contact with the OC, is that just physical contact or is it all contact? Currently, we have no physical contact, but we do send birthday, Christmas, and Easter gifts, and my H has called and talked to the child (age 4) a few times. The OW called my H at work a couple of weeks after his b-day, and wondered where his b-day gift was, and that "he wasn't going to do this to her son!", meaning, not sending him a gift. To me, it should be an all or nothing scenario.....no contact means NO contact...no gifts, phone calls, etc. Of course when I start thinking of a 4 year old boy crying because his dad didn't send him a gift for his birthday, then the guilt attacks start up! How will/do you all deal with that?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zebrababy:<BR><B>Jenny, no, they just don't seem to get it. She honestly and truely believed that her daughter was entitled to his love just because she existed. Late last night when H and I were reflecting on his convo with her he told me that she made a comment that he supports me while I try to be the best parent I can be, why can't he support her to be the best parent she can be. He simply stated, because she's my wife and you are not. Truely amazing how these women think that just because they have used our husband's sperm they are entitled to the priviledges of being a wife. Hello, wake up, you support someone to be the best they can be because you love them. I guess she hasn't figured out that he doesn't love her. Stupid stupid girl.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Before we cut off contact, ex-OW and I used to email each other. It was, believe it or not, our marriage counselor's idea. He said I was so good about stating what I did and didn't want to happen during this process, why didn't I just contact her and tell her the same things?<P>Well, for a month before the first visitation we had quite a flurry of email between us. I told her that my husband was not in this visitation agreement to be providing her with emotional support. She answered back "Imagine raising those 3 kids from Russia by yourself, without any help from Mr. Job." I was shocked that she thought the fact that Mr. Job fathered her child entitled her to emotional support for the rest of her life. I didn't respond by saying, "You are not his wife. That would be the difference. His obligation is to OC, not you." I wish that I had but my intent at the time was to make the visitation go easier, not to try and slap her out of her delusions. Guess she was/still is in the fog.<P>MJ<P>

Zebra baby,<BR>I teared up when I read about you buying flowers for your husband. How wonderful that your marriage is rebuilding and healing. My H is trying so hard. .. And I have built up quite a wall to keep him away. The fact that I'm 8 months pregnant isn't helping my mood much either - tee hee.<BR>My H has decided for no contact with OC. He used to have contact, only because OW threatened to tell me about OC if he did not. Now that I know about it all (dday about 4 months ago), she has nothing to hold over his head. I know it is a relief for him, although living in oblivion sure was blissful. <BR>brokenwings - I feel some of the same feelings you are. This is such a grey area, and I seem to feel as much guilt as H does. We also do not pay cs (yet) - oc is about 18 months old. Not sure why she hasnt taken us down that road. I think part of her doesn't want what could come from that. . . .involvement from me. Needless to say, there isn't much love and joy in the relationship I share withher. we are preparing financially for that payment, because more than likely it will happen some day. <P>I had just finished reading the post regarding visiting this site making your pain last longer. I was thinking hmmmm, maybe that's true. . . Then I open up this post and remember why I do visit here often, although post infrequently. Quite frankly, I feel that I am such a newbie I have nothing to offer- and thank all of you who do post regularly with thoughtful, helpful, healing words.

Dear zebrababy,<BR>Just wanted to address some of the questions I read earlier in your thread... Hope this helps everyone!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dacasarest:<BR><B>Just wondering, but when you all have decided against no contact with the OC, is that just physical contact or is it all contact? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Based on Harley's Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA), the decision regarding your and your husband's involvement with OC is based on your capacity to both be enthusiastically in agreement, regardless. When either of you reach your limits, you will both know. Everybody's limits are different and we all know what those are...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dacasarest:<BR><B>The OW called my H at work a couple of weeks after his b-day, and wondered where his b-day gift was, and that "he wasn't going to do this to her son!", meaning, not sending him a gift.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>HILARIOUS! She's doing a Love Buster (LB) and she is not even married to your husband! LOL! THAT is SO funny! Actually, this woman has nerves of steel... How dare she TEACH HER SON that he is ENTITLED to anything just because it is his birthday--you know, just because he was born. IMHO, that is not a good lesson to teach any (ANY) 4-year old... That's my 2 cents' worth... Her son is only going to learn what SHE teaches him and if she chooses to send those types of negative messages to her son about his bio father, I don't think that's good, but SHE's the mom! She can teach her kid whatever she wants.<P>As mentioned above, the POJA would need to be discussed in this case between the both of you. p.s. Is there any way he could change his work number??????????????<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dacasarest:<BR><B> To me, it should be an all or nothing scenario.....no contact means NO contact...no gifts, phone calls, etc. Of course when I start thinking of a 4 year old boy crying because his dad didn't send him a gift for his birthday, then the guilt attacks start up! How will/do you all deal with that?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Believe me, no 4-year old sits around crying about what anyone did or didn't do for them unless a grown-up is programming that into their little mind! I can't speak for all kids, but usually they are extremely self-centered and think the world revolves around them in general, BUT I think your imagination is getting the best of you here.<P>If the child lives with a lot of loving support at home, the focus could/would/should be on what they HAVE, and not what they don't have--AND again, that is a lesson to teach ALL kids, not just OCs--ALL kids... I hope that eases the guilt you might feel for no contact unless absolutely necessary. <P>Hey, your marriage is at stake here and obviously that is a priority over the affair and all the chaos in the wake. We choose our actions, but unfortunately we don't get to choose the consequences.<P>Sure, you may be dealing with an OW for however long, but at least your marriage will be intact. The way to get rid of guilt is pray--pray in such a way that your faith is in God and in HIS omnipotence! He is bigger than all our problems! He can carry our burdens. Let God be God! This sounds like a good one for Him, yeah? So He's on the spot then, right? HE's on the spot, not our faith! So then it's His problem now right, and not yours! Easy!!! See? Faith is easy, guilt is hard...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ann99:<BR><B>We also do not pay cs (yet) - oc is about 18 months old. Not sure why she hasnt taken us down that road. I think part of her doesn't want what could come from that. . . .involvement from me.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dear ann99,<BR>I'm not sure why the OW has not filed for CS yet, I can't answer to that, I can only describe to you the thoughts that crossed my mind when I was in her situation years ago and my OC was 18 months old... <P>I didn't want to interfere in MMs marriage as much as I had already. Felt guilty that I caused enough damage. However, this guilty feeling did shift down the road (as you anticipate), because I decided that it was not OCs fault and the money would not be used for anything but OC. I waited 5 years before I filed. <P>It's good that you are planning ahead. If OW is looking out for OC, she'll file. We'll just pray that she finds God's mercy and peace.<P>OH and BTW, there is no such thing as retroactive CS until after there is an official order in place with the court.<p>[This message has been edited by BINthereDUNthat (edited July 23, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:<BR><B><BR>OH and BTW, there is no such thing as retroactive CS until after there is an official order in place with the court.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's not true in all states because support laws vary state by state. Some couples here have been hit with many years of back child support. I think that Happy Girl is one of them. They have been clobbered with a huge bill that they can't afford to pay because on behalf of OC, the OW got back child support that she had never even filed for before. <P>MJ<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mrs. Job (edited July 23, 2001).]

OMGosh! That's terrible! Well, in CA it was that way two decades ago (no retro w/o court order). I'm so sorry that happened to anyone--ever! It seems so unfair! It's no wonder a W could hate an OW so much. I figure it this way, evidently God knew what some wives could handle because it definitely takes the heart of God to deal with something like that. My best wishes and all my prayers are out there for all of you...