Hi ladies<BR>I understand where you are all coming from, but still, I respectfully disagree. I agree the these children should have been given up for adoption. But the fact is, they weren't! Our husbands took this risk, at everyone's expense. Look at it like this for a moment. A teenage girl becomes preganant by a teenage boy. He wants her to abort or give the baby up but she doesn't. Does the mere fact that she didn't choose to do so mean he's off the hook? Doesn't he still have the responsibility to be a father? He took the risk, now he pays the price.<BR>I never said the OW should tell the W what to do. I simply said I agree that the men who chose to have intercourse, chose to take the risk of pregnancy, should face their responsibilities. A child should not be denied a father because of the selfishness of the TWO people who created him. Personally I think down the road, the no contact will backfire. The husbands are surely going to wonder, this is their CHILD for heaven's sake! They are going to feel guilt and they may resent you for it. I'm sorry, but I KNOW my marriage will never make it if my husband doesn't take complete responsibility for what he did. What he did was bad enough, it made me lose enough respect for him to the point where I don't know if it will ever come back. But if he ignores his own flesh and blood, I don't think I could live with him. He has a visit on Saturday with the child and of course I am nervous and scared and unsure. But deep down, I know it's the right thing for us.

This thread has proven to be filled with many opinions.<P>Bonniebb, you appear to be very defensive of your H's actions. I wish you well.<P>catnip, you are quite a lady! I agree to your post on 07-23-01@4:28pm. <P>Jtigger, I repect where you are coming from. I just have one question. I am not being judgemental at all, just curious. If your H wanted you to give up OC at this point, would you, for H?<P>ember

ember,<BR>I think you have me confused for tigger4jdt.<P>jtigger

My sincere apologies. <P>ember

Ember,<P>If that was what he wanted to save our marriage, then, yes, I would. But, if you would read more of my posts, you would see that it doesn't matter to him any more what Abbi's true paternity is. In fact, if you go back to May, and read the post "Can and + and - make a +?" or something to that affect, by Sailorman59, you will see that the only reason we would find out is to see if we should be using contraseptives or not. My H truly thinks of Abbi as his, and I see it every day. It would be VERY hard, but if he told me that he just couldn't deal with it any more, I would give her up. I have done so with another child, 13 yrs ago, and H was involved in that as he was in HS and I was just out of HS when we had her. He and I both know the pain of giving a child up, but if it was a situation in which I had to choose, I would choose to save my marriage, and find the baby a loving 2 parent home.<P>Tigger

Defensive of my husband's actions???? I am sickened by his actions and don't know if or when I will ever forgive him or if I will even stay with him. But all I do know is that if he doesn't be a father to his child, then I KNOW I'm outta here. I can't respect that. To each his own and that's my opinion. I feel a lot of really cold heartedness here with respect to the children involved and it makes me sad. I know how hard this is, I am only beginning to deal with it and I don't see an end in sight. I just feel that children shouldn't be deprived because of the horrible, selfish, cheating ways of their parents. It doesn't matter how evil and selfish and manipulative their parents are and the way in which they came into the world. To me, the point is that they are here and the parents need to own up to their responsibility. I think to be happy that your husbands choose not to participate is just as destructive as the cheaters were in the first place. I know how immature and blinded I was being at first when I insisted on no contact. I can hardly believe I behaved that way. My husband chose to have sex with someone other then me. No, he didn't want her to become pregnant but she did and that's the chance you take in life. When we agree to take our husbands back we should be taking back the whole picture. You can't say, I'll take you back but i want that child deleted from our lives forever. It's like you're trying to make it go away and it will never go away and that child WILL come back to demand answers and it WILL affect your marriage. Instead of helping your husbands be cowards, why not help them be MEN becaue clearly, they haven't behaved as men. If they had, none of this would even be an issue. MEN don't cheat, MEN don't lie, MEN don't turn their backs on their children. I want to be married to a MAN and if he won't be one, he'll have to go!

"Bonnie",<P>Why did you post the above when in a previous post you said:<P><I> The OC, a boy, is almost a year. My H hasn't seen OC since I found out and wants nothing to do with OC, which is really the only way I would be able to have it. I just can't deal with it. </I><P>Seems like you confused yourself .. or something. <P>Take care,<BR>CoR <P>PS Hi Suzi!<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Couple_of_Reasons (edited July 26, 2001).]

Apparently you have not read my posts in full. When I first posted I was devastated, still am, and was in the frame of mind that a lot of the women here seem to be, that I would leave if he saw OC etc etc. I have to say that reading these posts, I saw myself and realized how wrong i was, how I was trying to find a way to forgive my H so I could go on. But it made me ill to think and feel this way and I have "seen the light" so to speak. I don't know what's going to happen. My H stopped seeing OC because of me, even though he doesn't say so. I don't know WHAT I am going to to about H, but at least now I know I won't stand nby and let him ignore his child. How much I hate OW doens't have anything to do with it. If I supported a man who didn't be a father to his kids, I'd be no better then her! Sorry you find this positon so hard to understand but it's my understanding that I am entitled to my opinion, no matter how unpopular it may be.

So in a matter of EIGHT days you changed your whole attitude about the other child and are now berating wives who aren't following your view points?<P>Call me loopy, but I just can't bite on that one, Suzi.<P>

Bonniebb, I understand where you are coming from, but this is such a complicated issue. I have often wondered if my H is so sure that this child is his (we haven't had DNA done) then how can he choose to ignore him? We have three beautiful daughters and he is a wonderful father to them. I worry that the OC will grow up to feel abandoned by his father. You know what? I have NO control over that! I have tried to encourage my H to pursue visitation, but he does nothing. I have thought as you do, that maybe he's not the man I thought he was if he can ignore his child. However, by him not having any contact with his son, is that not the same as a woman giving her child up for adoption? Is it truly in the best interest of our children, our marriage, or the OC to have contact? I just don't think that he would ever truly feel a part of our family......I could be wrong.<P>I think I am finally getting past where you are now (after two years and now some antidepressants) in getting over the guilt about the OC. Yes, my H took the chance and got her pregnant(maybe) and we are paying for it dearly in child support. No matter what, women have the final say in child bearing. If YOU don't want to get pregnant, YOU don't have sex, because NO birth control is 100%. When the woman finds out she is pregnant, she has three options, Abortion, Adoption, or keeping and raising the child. The "father" or sperm donor has no say so.. Even a married woman can lie and get an abortion. If the woman doesn't want the child and the man does, too bad for him, he has no say so,....BUT if the woman wants the child and the man doesn't, it's still too bad for him, because now he has to pay child support! Is that right?????? I don't think so.<P>My H had terrible GUILT feelings for this child, but no love. He doesn't even refer to him as his son. Would it be right to force him to have a relationship with this child and also be constantly reminded of his mistake and the pain it's caused me? I think the child would pick up on that. For our marriage, at this time, it seems that no visitation is the answer for us. That may change in the future. And what about my children? I have the right to protect them from this. Sure, I suppose you could use this as a very hard lesson about loyalty and responsibility for one's actions, but frankly, I don't think my two young teenagers would look at it that way. I think they would be forever devastated by their fathers disloyalty to their mother, not thrilled because they have a secret brother. In time, they will know, but this isn't the time. <P>Also, the OW in our case said that my H could go visit, but not me. I told my H the only way our marriage would survive this is, that if he choose to visit, I would be there, ALWAYS! He agreed. I think it's more likely she is jealous of me and what I have with my H and what she didn't get. She thought nothing of taking up with a married man, who despite telling her he had no intentions of leaving his wife, still tried to get him to leave me. She wanted to TAKE OUR children and raise them together, and then...whoops! suddenly became pregnant when he tried ending the affair and then, when he still didn't want to leave me after finding out she was pregnant, tried one more time, by telling the child was going to be a boy, and didn't that mean anything to him?? <BR>Anyway, I need to go.....try thinking this one through a little more. You can't force your H to love this child, and pay close attention to the problems with the OW that those who did chose contact, have. It's a no win situation no matter how you look at it.

Couple of Reasons<BR>Quite honestly and in a nutshell, I don't care what you think of me.<P>dacasarest<BR>I hear what you are saying. And I understand your confusion. I get more upset at those like flowerseed and such who are HAPPY their husbands want nothing to do with the children. I think it's just so hateful.<BR>Regarding your arguement that the woman has the choice in the end. what does that matter? Men KNOW that's the way biology dictates and it's just the way it is. They know that when they choose an affair. I AGREE adoption is what would have been best. But if the woman is selfish enough, and I believe it IS selfish, then that means the man has an obligation. It's that simple. If he didn't like the rules he shouldn't have played the game.<BR>I don't know what the outcome will be for me, but I believe the women who are glad their husbands want no contact are awful and I believe the husbands who choose no contact are trying to run away and make it all go away. I think it's terrible.

Bonniebb,<P>So, you are saying that about 90% of the women on this board are awful hateful women????? I don't think that you understand completely where most of these women are coming from and why they are so against H having contact with OC! I think that you need to go back and read every single post ever done on this board before you are so judgemental on these women!!! <P>I can tell you for sure, that if you continue to post that the women here are hateful, you will not receive very much support here. Those who do have contact are having a very rough time with the OW, with a very few exceptions! Look into CDCollins latest posts about her and H visitation problems w/OW and OW's mother! The women here who don't have contact w/OC DO NOT put down those that do, and vice versa. This board is for advice, support and a venting place. The women like Flowerseed, who are happy w/out contact are just as kind as the women like CD who do have contact. <P>Just a slight spin on the topic, what do you think of me, not even telling OM that I was pregnant, and that he might have another child on this earth? My H and I are raising Abbi as OUR child, and don't even want to do a DNA test. So, am I just like the other women on this board, in your eyes, not allowing my child to "know" her "father"? In my eyes, and my H's eyes, Abbi "KNOWS" her father!!!! Yes, we will eventually tell her what happened. But, the last thing my H and I need in our lives is a person who has a great tendency towards violence, let alone involve our children in a situation like that. <P>If you can't respect everyones opinions and how they are handling their own situations, please refrain from calling them hateful and such. I hate to see the wonderful women here put down for their feelings. If you notice, I have NOT put you down for how you feel in your situation. You have every right to feel that way about your H, and his decision on whether to have contact or not. Just as every other person has the right to feel the way they do about their H's contact with the OC. Please, think before you write things like these women are all so hatefull! They are the most kind hearted and loving mothers and wives I have ever come into contact with!<P>Tigger

Tigger, thanks for answering my question. You certainly are blessed with a wonderful H.Thanks for sharing. You are one great lady. <P>Bonniebb, I don't understand your bitterness at the W's, like myself, who disagree with you. I think your anger is misdirected.<P>dacasarest, my H had been paying CS already, before I found out. That is the same, in our state, as admitting paternity. <P>When I found out about OC's, H asked OW for paternity, DNA, tests, even though H would still have to pay CS. OW refused. This made my H doubt a lot that they were his? If H really is the father of OC's, don't you think OW would want him and I to know? It certainly gave me a lot to think about. <P>ember

Bonniebb, of course it matters that women have the choice in the end when it comes to bearing children. The OW knew she was playing with fire, and I have every reason to believe, that in my case, she became pregnant on purpose. Men have no reproductive rights.......or haven't you thought about that! In my state, the lawyer told us that men have no rights to a child when the parents aren't married, but ALL of the financial obligations. I ask you again, is that right?<P>I don't understand your anger at the women who choose not to have contact with the OC. It sounds as if you're the one who wants your H "to pay" for his mistake, by contantly rubbing it his face. I think perhaps you may use the OC as a reminder of what your H did to you. This is supposed to be MARRIAGE BUILDERS, and maybe you need to re-read important points on this site on how to do this, or get your plan B implemented.

Bonnie...what happened to you respectfully disagreeing?<BR>If I beleive you are who you say you are bc there is definate anger coming out in your post and you are directing this anger at the wrong people honey. This is a board for support and you are screwing yourself. No one will support somebody who blasts them. I did nothing to create oc. If my H chose no contact then so be it. You say they (H) should not be forced to have no contact, but should I force my H to HAVE contact? Why? Because someone else's child is going with out a father? "NO please honey, leave me and our daughter and go make a family with the whore and your new daughter, bc otherwise I have no respect for you". Screw that. It is a dog eat dog world in this wonderfully moral nation of ours. I am sorry for oc. Really. But I am sorry for a lot of kids out there. Does that mean I am a horrible, no good, terrible, very bad person bc I do not take them all in? <P> I think Dacasarest has a really good point though. I did push my H at first to call and I went and bought stuff and did all this stuff for oc. Sure I feel sorry for her, but I know I also wanted to stuff it all down H's throat too. I wanted him to suffer as I was. I told him how horrid he was for not wanting to do this or that. GUess what...I got tired of torturing myself. OW could not stand the fact that I might actually be involved in HER childs life. And dont even suggest that she might have been worried about oc's safety or any of that bull bc I was always nice...even to ow. I have never even called her anything more than classless. And that was after she called H and I "retarded" for working as a team. She could not stand it. Could not stand it so much that she cut off contact and I do nto believe my H is a piece if crap bc he doesnt put us into the poorhouse to force ow to comply to our wishes. You know it is fine to have your own opinion but if you cant say anything nice then dont say anything at all. Then at least here we would all get along just dandy.<P>Love and Lots of Prayers<BR>bw<p>[This message has been edited by broken_wings (edited July 26, 2001).]

Dear mina29,<P>I'm just here to say I support your decision to preserve your marriage at all costs. If I were you, I would not buy into the devil's guilt trips and accusations. Everybody's situation is unique and we all have to do what our gut tells us to do with no regrets. So we have to make sure we can truly live with our individual decisions. We all have our reasons and owe nobody any explanations. God knows our hearts. If given the chance to do our lives over again, we would probably live the same way because of what knowledge we possessed as we went along. Character consists of what we do the 3rd and 4th times...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bonniebb:<BR><B>MEN don't cheat, MEN don't lie, MEN don't turn their backs on their children. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>King David cheated with Bathsheba. Then he lied and murdered Bathsheba's husband. Before all that, David killed Goliath who posed a huge threat to God's people at that time. David wrote most of the Psalms. I would consider him to be a great man of God.<P>King Solomon, (David's son with Bathsheba) was also a great man of God who wrote Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon. Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines! (I don't know exactly how many kids Solomon had, but how could he meet 1000 women's individual most important emotional needs, let alone be a real daddy to however many children he produced?????)<P>Samson was a mighty man of God who was also married and cheated with Delilah, which cost him all his godly power.<P>And let's not forget Father Abraham, quite the man of God who fathered Hagar's son, Ishmael, and left the decision of contact/no contact up to his wife Sarah. Sarah chose no contact because she couldn't deal with all their mocking... Abraham turned his back and God promised Hagar that He would provide for Ishmael (Genesis 21). Ishmael was not entitled to the same inheritance as Isaac, at least that is what the bible says (Genesis 18:20-21).<P>Let's not forget the woman at the well who met Jesus. She was having multiple affairs and He knew it. For some reason God felt the need to have this incident of infidelity forever recorded. (My guess is probably due to the laws against adultery at that time?) Jesus' reply to her critics was go ahead and stone her if they had no sin in their own lives.<P>I said all this to respectfully disagree with Bonniebb that men don't sin. Because if that were the case, God's mercy would be of no value!<P>Finally I would like to mention my son, who was the product of a short-lived physical affair. Call me selfish if you like, nevertheless, I gave birth to him, raised him and have no regrets. He has added so many positives to my life. His mere existence has forced me to raise my standards and want to live a better example for him and his younger siblings. Sure he had some tough questions when he was old enough to ask them, and I answered truthfully. The truth set him free from wondering and the truth set me free from hiding. <P>He is grown now and there was practically no contact--not enough to consider bio father as dad. OC turned out okay. He is not in jail, on drugs, nor sociopathic. With God in his life, he was not disadvantaged, God makes up for any disadvantages in our lives, it's called covenant. <P>At some point in our lives we have to let go of whatever we consider to be the *cause* we believe in and simply trust God. We don't have all the answers and we never will. No one can predict the future so no one can say how anything will affect anyone. We barely know how we will react in different situations until we are all tangled up inside of some big ugly mess and confused as heck! Oh sure, we had it all figured out, before it happened to us--whatever 'it' is! But it's not what happens to us, it's how we take it. God is in control.<P>[This message has been edited by BINthereDUNthat (edited July 27, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by BINthereDUNthat (edited July 27, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bonniebb:<BR>[B]I have to say that reading these posts, I saw myself and realized how wrong i was B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How wrong YOU were. That's the issue here. Not how wrong WE are for our equally adamant feelings.<P>I will not condemn you for your feelings if you do not condemn me for mine. I will not shove my beliefs and convictions down your throat, if you do not shove yours down mine.<P>You are entitled to your opinions and beliefs and I am entitiled to mine.<P>For you to go on ranting and raving about the poor children is fine, but I don't want the OC in my life. She has a huge, loving and proactive family and doesn't need (or want) us. Perhaps if this were not the case, I 'might' (though doubtful) reconsider my position.<P>Let's just agree to disagree because no one is going to change your mind or change my mind about what is right for either of us. For someone to come here and pontificate about how we all 'should' be behaving and feeling and thinking is out of line here. For someone to come here and try to shame us all into changing our mindset for the good of children who are not our resposibility through a situation that has caused us so much pain and heartache, is truly insensitive and annoying.<P>My situation is so completely convoluded and has so many sidebars, that my husband's courage or lack thereof, is not even an issue because mere survival and recovery from his illness is the focus.<P>Catnip =^^= <P>

Bonniebb, <BR>I finally found your post! I can't believe I didn't recognize your name,when I even replied to your post. However the more I read your story the more I find it contradictory.<P><BR>I have come to the conclusion that you are just another SCORN OW trying to cause problems for the ladies in this forum. If you don't have anything positive to say, do not post at all. Who are you to judge me or the ladies in this forum who choose not to have contact with oc.

Listen, I am not going to argue with you grown women over something that deep down, you know you are wrong about. Your H created a child, a life, an innocent being that didn't ask for this. Now, he made the mistake, now be a man, and deal with the consequences! It's THAT simple! Nothing you can say, no excuse or inconvenience or jealousy and anger or ANYTHING is going to change the fact that a man who turns his back on ANY of his children is a scumbag and any woman who stands by a man who does this or who worse, ADVOCATES it, is every bit the scumbag he is. TWO people made the selfish decision to have an affair. They BOTH knew the possible outcome. Now if they want to do something RIGHT for a change, they ought to be MEN and take responsibility. You women who think it's GOOD that he turn his back and who don't want it any other way, should truly be ashamed of yourselves! You take back a lying cheater but you can't accept an innocent child in his life. How sick and twisted! I pity you all!

Bonnie,<P>I am truly sorry that your "scumbag" did not leave his "scumbag wife" for you...I am sure he gave you the whole song and dance that he would be with you just to "get some"...but OH well...you need to move on, and Like I have posted to you or the other OW (or are they both you???) forthechildren<BR>You have no place here. And frankly if you had been a BS you would be here more concerned about your children, and how this will affect them..BUT you dont care about them..not one of your posts reflects that, sad ...very sad.<BR>Men usually dont leave their families unless forced to, so remember that the next time you have an affair. Pillow talk is just that Pillow talk..no grow up and move along...your name calling is getting old, and quite frankly boring. if you are what you claim...take care of YOUR "SCUMBAG" AND leave ours to us...now go..have a nice life taking care of YOUR STABLE CHILDREN.....and dont worry about us...we will be fine...<p>[This message has been edited by MyCross (edited July 27, 2001).]