Can a man really break free from an addiction like that? for good?
I've just heard so many stories of "good" men going back again and again... I don't know what I'd do if it happened again, it is one of the most vile and offensive things in the world in my opinion, it makes me sick... and it breaks my heart...
is there anything I can do to help him "abstain"?

Hi...I don't have any advice for you other than to search the EN and infidelity boards for "porn". There have been some great threads over the past few months and some that are currently going on.

Take care,
Smile

I think I may be dealing with a similar prob - about 6 years ago, I found my husband was frequenting our attic. When I questioned him, he would either deny it or tell me I was crazy and imagining things. After finding his coffee cup there one day, and realizing that if you peeked through a hole in the turbin vent on the roof, you could peer straight into the neighbor's bathroom and watch the young female neighbors shower, I confronted him again and he admitted it. I was devastated, confused and repulsed. I asked the neighbors to cover their window, plugged the hole, and monitored the attic door - (kinda sounds enabling, doesn't it?) They moved and that problem disappeared. Now we have new neighbors with young adult girls. I have been watchful and thought the problem was gone. Tonight I called on the way home from work as usual, but hubby was very eager to get off the phone. When I got home, the back gate was open allowing access to the side yard. I realized that the shower is once again viewable if he stands on the air conditioner. The window was freshly steamy. I confronted him calmly and told him I hoped the problem was not going to recur. He became extremely agitated, loud and aggressive, packed his clothes,handed me his wedding ring and left. He again told me how ridiculous I was (just like before). I feel caught with my armor down, I am confused (what if I was wrong). I am angry and hurt and don't feel like I am thinking proactively for my own protection. I don't know where to begin to deal with this or whether I should deal with anything but a separation. I feel very powerless and hopeless right now, but I don't feel like I should give into the tears I feel. Any suggestions/direction would be great right now.

Dear Wife,

Welcome to Marriage Builders.

What are the problems you found with your husband's use of porn? Why do you refer to his use of porn as an addiction to porn?

My wife sometimes has problems with porn, and sometimes she is OK with it. Two nights ago, in our foreplay, my wife was immitating one of the actors in the errotic video we had recently watched. It was good fun.

I would be interested to hear your problems with errotic materials. There are a number of resources for help, listed, as Smile a Day says, under Emtional Needs. Many women posting to MB take a needlessly negative apporach to the enjoyment of errotic images during foreplay and sex.

You are not providing much detail for me to be able to refer you to other threads or posts. I have read and posted on some Errotic threads, my minority viewpoints. But I understand that there can actually be problems, but I really have not read any problems sufficiently detailed in MB posts, that I have understood as requiring abstainance. I generally try to limit my masturbation and viewing of errotic visions to the presence of my wife.

I will try to be sensitive and helpful if you care to post further details of the problems.

My wife and I have taken the Silva Method out of Laredo Texas. It is a weekend program for about $350.00 which assists with self-discipline, and supporting others in improving self-discipline.

Blessings,

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challinging kids, still struggling

<small>[ November 06, 2003, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Dear Wife,
Sorry that you are going through the pain and agony of this problem with your H. It is a real and serious problem that can be controlled with the right info and help.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> is there anything I can do to help him "abstain"? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The answer is yes. I think posters Stephanie Smith and her H and some others can help you find what you are looking for.
I do not know how to do the link thing but this is how you can find her posts on the subject.
Click on Directory ,type in the name Stephanie Smith in the Community Directory Service ,select Member and then click on her name on the next page. Then click on View Recent Posts at the top right corner and it will send you to a link on her posts. Click on any of them and read.
Her H has dealt with SA and they have posted a lot of valuable information here.I believe they can be of help to you and your H.

I wish you the best. kk

<small>[ November 06, 2003, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: kings kid ]</small>

Dear JD,

My sympathy for your unpleasant, and unexpected surprise.

I took a Christian Counseling Course at a Baptist Temple. Used a book, CHRISTIAN COUNSELING by Jay
Adams. One point in the book, was that a sinner did not change from being a sinner, until he became something else.

When does a man stop being a thief?

When he stops stealing?

No. It is when he develops another livelihood and better habits and outlooks.

To be a good counselor, or spouse, we should look at the drives of our partner, and see how we can assist the partner in meeting the needs that led to undesirable behavior.

Confronting, patching a hole, drawing shades, are stopping the behavoir, but not replacing the fulfillment of the need, or recognizing what the need might be?

Visualization of errotic views of women? Is that possible? There are customers for topless bars and strip joints. Apparently there are a number of men who have a desire to at least look at errotic images. Porn videos are sold. Porn sites on the Internet are top hits.

I hope you do better than my wife. I often get rejected in removing my wife's top in the marital bedroom. Sometimes with success, I aks my wife to pretend that I stopped by the topless bar after work, and that my wife is my topless waitress.

You have not said anything about your support, or blocking, of errotic visualizations by your husband within the marriage.

Maybe this issue is beyond what you are willing to discuss. Before you ask me not to reply to your posts anymore, let me just copy in a larger speel from another post I made.

Quipper's Standard paragraphs on Errotic Images:

The human sex drive can be challenging to fulfill. Are there constructive ways in which pornography can help to fulfill the drive, and reduce the temptation of sinful Adltery?

For me, the effect of visualizing errotic images during foreplay and sex with my wife enhances my climax. My performance is also enhanced in that the time required between climaxes is reduced. Going to work limp in the morning makes it less likely to find an embarrassing bulge in my pants, when out in public during the day.

Jesus said it was adultery in the heart for a married man to look at another woman with lust. There were nude statues, paintings and drawings in the time of Jesus, but Jesus is quoted with the Greek Words words GUNE, woman, and AUTOS, her, in the passage, Matthew 5:28. The connotations of these Greek words are about an indiviual person, not about paintings, drawings, statues or other likenesses.

Have you read this book?

KOSHER ADULTERY recommends voyerism to satisfy any cravings for adultery.

posted October 25, 2003 11:07 PMOctober 25, 2003 11:07 PM Today while at Borders looking for books on buidling back trust I went to the psych section and did not stay in the relationship section...There I found this book:Kosher Adultery by Shmuel BoteachHardcover: 336 pages ; Dimensions (in inches): 1.25 x 8.72 x 5.84 Publisher: Adams Media Corporation; (September 2002) ISBN: 1580627927

Posted by Way2 under Infidelity, General Questons II.
here's more information:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Editorial Reviews
About the Author
Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, author of the international bestsellers Kosher Sex and Dating Secrets of the Ten Commandments, is host of "Dear Shmuley," a nationally syndicated daily radio show on the Talk America Radio Network. For eleven years, he served as Rabbi to the students of Oxford University, where he founded the L&#8217;Chaim Society, which became the second largest student organization in Oxford&#8217;s history. His book Why Can&#8217;t I Fall in Love was a finalist for the Books for a Better Life Award, and his latest work, Judaism for Everyone, was published to critical acclaim. A winner of the highly prestigious London Times Preacher of the Year Award, Rabbi Shmuley has debated human relationship issues with such figures as Larry Flynt, Helen Gurley Brown, Elizabeth Wurtzel, the Rules Girls, Deepak Chopra, and Jerry Falwell. Rabbi Shmuley lives in New Jersey with his Australian wife Debbie and their seven young children.

Book Description
How can adultery-the worst of all marital sins-be considered "kosher"? As internationally bestselling author Rabbi Shmuley Boteach explains, what often leads to infidelity is too much trust and complacency, which causes routine, boredom, and waning attraction. You and your spouse must look to the principles of adultery-forbiddenness, danger, excitement, tension, and voyeurism-to achieve the outer limits of erotic excitement, passion, and pleasure in your own marriage.

In this revolutionary new book, Rabbi Shmuley explains how you can rekindle the fiery attraction and endless lust that existed before you and your spouse became husband and wife: Kosher Adultery. Husbands must turn their wives into mistresses; wives must turn their husbands into lovers. Through the groundbreaking "Ten Commandments of Kosher Adultery," wives become their husbands&#8217; private WebCam girls, while husbands have sinful affairs with their wives, who are completely unaware of the real identity of their mysterious admirers. Rabbi Shmuley shows you how to:

-Create erotic desire in the mind, the source of all lust and attraction

-Look at your spouse with the eyes of a prowling suitor

-Bring the danger of an affair into your marriage without being unfaithful

-Turn attraction and fantasies about strangers into an electric night of passion

-Bring novelty into marriage by viewing your spouse through the eyes of an unsuspecting stranger

-Have a secret e-mail affair with your spouse without anyone discovering your identity

-Introduce erotic voyeurism into your marriage

-Increase desire and sinfulness through the use of erotic obstacles and barriers

Continuing where Rabbi Shmuley&#8217;s classic Kosher Sex leaves off, this highly controversial and electric work challenges all past and contemporary scholarship about the marital bed, ensuring that it will be the most hotly debated and discussed book of the next decade.


In most cases where I have seen posts of women complaining about pornography, it seems to me the wives could have been more cooperative with their husband's sex drive, and incorpoated pornography better into the marital love-making scenerio. Since secrecy is possible, wives who make prudish comments, may well be setting themselves up for failure. It may even be wise for a wife to occasionally rent a XXX movie, herself, to be sure that Hubby feels free to bring up his desires for errotica.

To me, Porno Addiction is a convenient term used by therapists who are trying to find a way to avoid telling the wife to stop being excessively prudish. Certainly SA Whitebook gives a large number of psychological disadvantages to over-dependence on pornography. But the causes of problems with pornography lies primarily with prudishness, which is supported by public pretenses of prudishness by many, cloaked behind private and secret enjoyment of errotica.

I have not seen this book discussed on the porn threads in Emotional Needs.

Buy this book, KOSHER ADULTERY for your husband, and let us readers know how long before he gives you a call back.

Post back where I am wrong,

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

<small>[ November 07, 2003, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

i have seen this issue all over the MB site. it seems that the ladies have a major problem with their husbands looking at dirty magazines and porn flicks. my wife is one of them. here is my opinion: if a guy wants to look at porn and his wife doesn't want him to do so, then the man may want to view it without his wife knowing it. i know this may seem sneaky, but no harm is being done by looking at a dirty magazine. if you want to let the husband know how you feel without telling him over and over, then buy a Playgirl magazine and leave out where your husband can find it. then you will know how HE feels about you doing the same thing. Maybe this will open his eyes and mind to your feelings. It's just an option and it's just my opinion.

<small>[ November 07, 2003, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: dean790 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but no harm is being done by looking at a dirty magazine. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's subjective. I will accept the premise that no harm is being done to you, but harm is definitely being done to your W. She SAYS so. Just because you cannot see that harm and refuse to recognize it doesn't make it go away. Just because you don't intend harm doesn't mean it isn't there.

Dude, you have porn issues. The simple fact that you put this behavior ahead of your W's feelings makes it a big problem. You also completely disrespect her when she says it hurts. Either you don't believe that she knows what she's talking about with her feelings or you disregard them. Either way, it isn't taking her feelings into account, and she is 1/2 your marriage.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I suggest you work on your own closet before trying to help others. I've seen you time and time again on these boards invalidate the feelings of women over porn.

The fact that you disagree does not make their feelings invalid or incorrect.

This is my opinion: If I, or any other man looks at a porn mag every once in a while in his own privacy without anyone else knowing it, then no harm is being done. Wouldn't you agree?

This is another opinion of mine: I do not have porn issues. My wife told me to get rid of all my mags and what few tapes I had before we got married. I did what she asked me to do. Just because I look at at a few of the mags at my
friends house does not make me have porn issues. Even if I keep one hidden and look at it every once in a while, I am not hurting anyone's feeling if they don't know about it.

I have been around for a long long time and even though you may consider my closet as being dirty, I have to disagree. I definitely had a dirty closet in the past, but I must say that it is fairly clean now. By no means is it spotless, but I feel good about it's cleanliness.

This is a fact: You will continue to see me time
and time again giving my honest opinons on many issues. I never claim to be correct about any issue, but i have just as much of a right to post my opinion as anyone else here at MB.

I would be glad to further discuss this issue or any other issue together with you.

Ugh... wife here... it seems I opened a can of worms, I can't say this it surprises me terribly, the issue being what it is and all...
but what does surprise me is finding men claiming to be christians justifying lusting after porn... I expect it from the rest of the world, but not from christians... "Kosher Infidelity"?!?! Give me a break!
I guess I'd much rather hear from other women who have been hurt by a husband lusting after other women, (yes men, it hurts like you can't imagine) and have pulled through... maybe you men could sit back and listen (read) for a while and try to fathom just how deep a wound your harmless habit cuts...

Dear Raz,

Many Chritians enjoy pornography, just as most Chritians are pro-choice.

If you have some Bible sections you would like me to look at, please give me the sources.

The most common section referred to as justifying an aversion of pronography is Matthew 5:28. But the Bible said nothing about pornography.

Jesus said it was adultery in the heart for a married man to look at another woman with lust. There were nude statues, paintings and drawings in the time of Jesus, but Jesus is quoted with the Greek Words words GUNE, woman, and AUTOS, her, in the passage, Matthew 5:28. The connotations of these Greek words are about an indiviual person, not about paintings, drawings, statues or other likenesses.

Your advocacy of purity in sex is admirable, but rather counter-productive to solving problems in trouble marriages. Please stop narrowing the definition of a Christian, and stretching the Bible, to suit the puritanical beliefs of a conservative minority of Christians, however well financed.

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling.

<small>[ November 08, 2003, 02:16 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

"Many Chritians enjoy pornography, just as most Chritians are pro-choice."

Your assertion that most christians are pro-choice is not only off topic, it's just off.... there may be many a modern moral relativist calling his/herself a christian who are pro-choice but "most christians" is just too sweeping a claim to make... there are a lot of statistics out there that would disprove your claim, in fact there are many non-christians who are pro-life for plain old fashioned moral reasons...

Anyway- "Many christians enjoy pornography"
Some christians regularly use/view pornography, but I would assert that not all of them enjoy it. Many may "enjoy" what it does to their flesh, for a moment, but many do not enjoy what it does to soul/spirit/emotions for a lot longer than that titillating moment. there's a reason so many are filled with guilt, and it's not because of a puritanical upbringing, it's because of an innate sense of right and wrong...
then there are those with a seared conscience who don't see anything wrong with things that are wrong, but that doesn't make them right any more than my not seeing the deer in the road makes it not there to hit...

"Jesus said it was adultery in the heart for a married man to look at another woman with lust. There were nude statues, paintings and drawings in the time of Jesus, but Jesus is quoted with the Greek Words words GUNE, woman, and AUTOS, her, in the passage, Matthew 5:28. The connotations of these Greek words are about an indiviual person, not about paintings, drawings, statues or other likenesses."

This is just the kind of pseudo-intellectual rationalizing I'm quickly learning to expect from you.

Do you honestly believe that looking at a picture of an individual woman in the nude is so vastly different than looking directly at her in the nude? That's hairsplitting at its finest, or should I say, at its worst... looking at her with lust is looking at her with lust irregardless of the form of the image.

Dear Raz,

So then we are in agreement that if a married couple uses pornographic pictures of the wife, or the married couple, that would not be a violaton of the words of Jesus? Looking and lusting over pictures, paintings or statues of naked women is only bad if it is not of your wife, correct?

So we are in agreement with the part of the book, KOSHER ADULTERY, that recommends enjoying pronographic pictures and videos with the wife. So you agree, that if the pornographic videos are of the wife herself, that the words of Jesus have no applicability?

So you and I can jointly recommend the <wife> and JDNTX make up some home videos of themselves and maybe their husbands, for later enjoyment adn spicing up their marriage?

So you will not join in my recommendation that they stop by the XXX video store and spend $24.00 for 4 hours of enjoyable viewing.

I am not sure how you lust after a vison of a woman, when I don't have her address, name or actual age, and who in fact may be now deceased. I'll have to also look up the meaning of Lust in the Bible.

Your style of posting is getting a little negative, and bordering on Advocacy posting.

(Cathartic posting was originally posted, and Revised)

I think we can call your style,

ADVOCACY POSTING is some of the following:

1. Takes a particular position of moral correctness on a topic which is actaully open to
wider debate.
2. Criticizes a poster personally (Argumentum as Hominum) who is offering suggestions of options for solutions for posted problems.
3. Ignores, or does not reasonably accomodate, the problems accompanying the limited solutions afforded by the moralistic position being taken.
4. Argues with emotion, which probably achieves an Emotional Release for the poster, or a catharsis, which is probably beneficial and healthy for the Advocay Poster, but is unreated to any benefit for the people who have posted to ask for ideas or support.

What have I missed?

I would say your postings indicate a low tolerance of the enjoyment of the pleasures of pornography, without much logical or supportive evidence. Is that a fair statement?

Advocacy Indicator NO. 2 is indicated by your calling me something like a hair splittting intellectual, when I point out that the Bible is silent on pornography. That was responding to your insinuation that a person cannot be a Christian and enjoy pornography. I would request that you re-phrase that paragraph to be more directed to the issues at hand, rather than derrogating me personallly.

I think it is helful for <Wife> and JDNTX to know the basis for your comments, as they are struggling with the issues of Sexual Purity, as advocaed in the website to which you refer.

One function of Marriage Builders is to allow spouses to examine their pre-conceived notions of the role of a Husband and a Wife, and to make accommodations for the personaltities and drives of their spouses. Normal and Ideal are certanily concepts that have a place here. But even more apporopriate, is the ideal of Workable.

I tried something new with my wife last night. My 26 year old son, who is going to college and working part time, sleeps across the hall. So I usually use the sound from a video tape with my errotic DVD. Last night, I turned on the radio, on a classical music station. My wife complained that I had the music too loud, so I turned it down, enough for her taste, and we had a great time. I did not achieve success in getting my wife to remove her top, just lifted it up. Any suggestions? Visualizing my wife topless is something I often fail to achieve.

Blessings,

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

<small>[ November 09, 2003, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

This is a similiar problem I am having. Every time my husband has a little too much too drink, he tells me he is going to sleep on the couch. Here to find out, he is watching porn and enjoying himself in ways we all know about. The last time I caught him and I instantly became ill. Maybe because I thought he really never did that but seeing him with my own eyes, it crushed me. I just feel that something has changed for the way I look at him now.
We hardly have sex as it is and then to see him do this instead.

mom26- I feel for you- in ways that people like Quipper will never understand.

Quipper- first off- if you'd read my first post, you'd realize that I am <wife> so I am not out to give advice to <wife>

No, I don't agree with your descriptions of the ways I must agree with you, but I have enither the time, nor the emotional energy to expend refuting those statements.

Now having established that I am <wife> I would like to make it clear that I was looking for the perspective of christian women who have dealt with or counseled people who have dealt with this issue.
It is clear that we have completely different worldviews and I am not interested in debating in such a fruitless manner. I don't want to hear any more of your reasoning or rationalizing about the benefits of porn. I wholeheartedly, absolutely disagree, and if you would take the time to read you would see that Dr. Harley disapproves of pornography as well, and it's not because he's a puritanical prude, he's a rational well educated man who's seen the problems it causes...
If I were a budhist or a hindu or a muslim, would you be telling me to lighten up, or would you respect my religous reasons for striving for purity? Why is it that because I am a christian striving for purity (and that of my husband) you throw around words like pruddish and right wing, ultra conservative christian?
So if you decide to become a woman, become a christian (that sticks with traditional values), and get involved with a man you would never suspect has a porn problem (yes, it is a problem) but get through the pain and grow from the experience, and feel you would actually have something helpful to say to a hurting woman, then by all mean I would welcome your input.
If that doesn't happen could you just refrain from invalidating my pain and belittling my belief system?

Raz - Quipper is way off on this issue. As a Christian man, I applaud your decision to confront this issue and call it what it is, a problem. Actually, it is a sin that causes severe problems. I do believe the Scriptures address this issue, beginning with the 1st, 2nd, 7th, and 10th Commandments.

As is the case with all human nature, we tend to blameshift our conviction with porn onto society, our "rights" as a Believer, our frigid spouse, or whatever will conveniently shift the focus from our personal accountability.

I truly believe that if we wouldn't welcome Jesus into our activity, be it porn, gambling, drinking, or whatever the vice, then it's not something we should be messing with. That's a real sad aspect of a spouse committing adultery - perhaps they forget Jesus is in that room with them.

Anyone can take a portion of the Bible, take it out of context to fit our personal agenda, and use the Word to justify our thought life and actions.

The bottom line, and the truth, is that porn is idolatry, it is addictive, it is ultimately destructive, and it destroys relationships.

Raz - there are many helps available for your H but he must first realize his addiction is sin, just like any other addict. I pray that God will give you grace and much love for your H, because it will be love, "tough love", that will win him over. Are you willing to love into healing, meeting his SF and other EN's? You must be the strong one because he is weak right now. I am praying for you and him. God bless!

John 16:33.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dean790:
<strong> This is my opinion: If I, or any other man looks at a porn mag every once in a while in his own privacy without anyone else knowing it, then no harm is being done. Wouldn't you agree?

This is another opinion of mine: I do not have porn issues. My wife told me to get rid of all my mags and what few tapes I had before we got married. I did what she asked me to do. Just because I look at at a few of the mags at my
friends house does not make me have porn issues. Even if I keep one hidden and look at it every once in a while, I am not hurting anyone's feeling if they don't know about it.

I have been around for a long long time and even though you may consider my closet as being dirty, I have to disagree. I definitely had a dirty closet in the past, but I must say that it is fairly clean now. By no means is it spotless, but I feel good about it's cleanliness.

This is a fact: You will continue to see me time
and time again giving my honest opinons on many issues. I never claim to be correct about any issue, but i have just as much of a right to post my opinion as anyone else here at MB.

I would be glad to further discuss this issue or any other issue together with you. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry Dean but I beg to differ. I'd like you to try to not look at those magazines, internet porn and video tapes for a week, even a month and see what happens. If you get the craving for them then you've got an addiction.

As for hurting nobody, what if your wife found out? Does she know about it? I know my wife hates it. As for the harm it harms yourself.

Hey, I've been down that road already, rationalizing that its ok to do that. I've rationalized myself to the point that I've had multiple affairs because the magazines got boring and there' nothing like the real thing.