who holds my H responsible for the fact that this OC is now a part of our lives? Why does it seem like you all are so fixated on the OW...she trapped him, she should have given the child up, she should have done this or done that. I mean, WHO CARES!!! You may be totally, 100% right about her and her motives and her selfishness and what she should or should not have done. But why does it seem that 75% of the dialog is about her? Is anyone holding H responsible? It seems like you all think your H are so wonderful and he was just "stupid" I'm sorry, but my H was a lot more then just stupid. I think you guys are part of the problem, I really do. Your H know you are fixated on her and gets off scott free, like he's the victim and you all act like you got the "prize" by getting him. I mean do you really see him as a prize? Maybe I am still in shock but I see my H as THE #1 reason my life is screwed up and THE #1 reason this child exists. There is evil ALL OVER THE PLACE. I;m sure his OW DID get pregnant but how is that supposed to make it any better? I must be missing something here. But to read your posts is truly disturbing. It seems no one holds H responsible because they are so focused on how he was done wrong! I'm really shocked to find this attitiude here. Maybe I need to be more in denial or something but I can't do that.

BBB,<P>Well, I don't think that you have read enough to claim that these women DON'T hold their H's responsible! I have been on this board for almost a year, and have been reading and know that all these women do hold their H's responsible, but are actually past that and in recovery with their marriages, which the OW seems to still want to break up, or cause more damage to by her behaviors!!! Have you read CDCollins latest post about HER OW???? There is the prime example why these amazing women are the way they are about the OW in these situations!!!!! You say they are fixated on "blaming" the OW, but the one who seems fixated lately is YOU!!! You seem to not be able to forgive your H, and will probably blame him for the rest of your married life to him. Maybe you should just leave him if you can't forgive him! Let these women vent, and rand and rave about the stupidity of these OW, and if it bothers you, don't respond to their posts. None of them have forced you to come here, and they don't try to force their opinions down YOUR throat, so don't try to force it down their throats! Nothing you do will change their minds, because you are being so hostile in your accusations and such. You can't catch ANYTHING with vinegar. If you want to have people take you seriously, be nice in what you say and how you say it. Although, at this point, I don't think it will help, the damage has been done!! You are not the only one who holds her H responsible, BUT you are the only one trying to force your views, actions, and beliefs down everyone else's throats!!!!<P>I hope you enjoy being alone, cause that is what is going to happen to you on this board if you continue to FORCE your issues and beliefs!!!<P>Tigger

Well I'm sorry. I just have a different opinion and I am not the least bit threatened that I am in the minority on the board. Others HAVE agreed with me but were quickly attacked by the clique.<P>Forgive my H? Of course I haven't! I only just found out and I don't know that I will. But the point is, if you make the decision to forgive, you're accepting the whole package and that means the existance of OW as awful as she may be and the OC. Maybe your H won't see OC, but they are still there.<P>Your little clique doesn't bother me a bit. I am entitiled to my opinion and I must disagree, I have been attacked and called names ever since I voiced my disagreement!

Bonnie,<BR> I think tigger pretty much sumed it up. My h was held responseable for the pain he caused. To me for a man to day in day out for nearly 1 1/2 yrs look into the eyes of somebody he hurt so badly and see that pain and keep trying to make it go away.It has to say something for him. <BR> I really dont know myself if the situaction was reversed if I could have did it.<BR> My h has payed his dues. I guess if mine was forceing the oc child into my life I probly would have a diffrent attitude and I would have had to move on. <BR> Try to read the materials here that are availble it does take hard work to make a marriage work for both the h and the w. I wish we could have had the information before all this happened. I really dont think alot of us would be here if we had. flowerseed

I hold my husband 100% accountable for his actions. I am incredibly angry this happened and I am living the Jerry Springer life. It took both of them to create this mess and it would have only taken one of them to not even let it happen in the 1st place. The ow owed me nothing, therefore I know that holding her accountable for my pain is wrong and useless. My husband hurt me.<P>Now, for the oc. It is a shame, disgrace, sin or whatever you want to call it for a child to come in to this world without 2 parents that are excited, preparing and waiting in anticipation for the arrival of this child. It is a CRIME to the child. An adoptive family would be the best thing for this child. Parents that keep the child are being selfish, unless both parties agree to marry and raise this child as any other married couple would.<P>Bonnie, have you never made a mistake? I have. I have slept with people I should not have, I have been an ow and many other things. The things that separates me from others is I have learned from my mistakes and not repeated them. I chose my husband because of qualities I love and admire. He lost some of the qualities while he was going down his spiral of drug abuse. The child was concieved with both parents full on addicts. The mother was a drug addict the first month of the babies life. She would be the same right now if the law would not have intervened.<P>My husband is doing everything to make himself a better person. He has walked a tough road, one that many of us would have given up. He may not the Ghandi, but he is pretty decent. He has made many mistakes during this last year. Do you think the proper punishment is a child with a woman he never could stand (and she in turn should not be too fond of him either, but she is and that is another story) and losing the person he dreamed of his whole life? Should he just slit his wrists or eat a bullet since he did this deed and should not be forgiven?<P>What he did was wrong. We have all done wrong. The price for this wrongdoing should never be a child. A child should be a reward.

Hey bonniebb,<BR>I hold myself responsible for my actions. As a parent, I strive to teach my children to be responsible for their own actions. However, the only person who can hold my h responsible for his actions is my h. The only person who can hold ow responsible for her own actions is her. It is impossible to hold somebody else responsible for something. The only person you can hold responsible for anything is yourself.<P>That said, my h takes responsibility for his part in creating oc. MY job isn't to make sure he suffers endlessly for his poor decision, my job isn't to make sure that he feels guilt or remorse, my job isn't to push him into choosing to be or not to be a father to that child - that's his job. My job is to be the best wife and mother I can be, to be the best person I can possibly be. That's it. sometimes I fall short, its true, but I get up and keep going. the same as everybody else here does.<P>In our case, we are doing our best to include oc in our lives and in our family, and to love her in the way she deserves to be loved. That is a decision my h and I came up with together, and it is one that works for us.<P>It isn't for you to decide how other women handle the oc situation - nor is it your job to make disparaging comments on how they do it. We come here to share our experiences, not to degrade others when they make different choices about how they cope with this painful situation.<P>You need to have somebody explain to you what "respectfully disagreeing" means. Cause, honey, what you're doing aint it.<P>-cd

BonnieBB,<P>AGAIN, you haven't read enough about the women on this board and their situations to respond the way you have!!!! If you had, you would know that I am not dealing with the OW who had a child w/my H, but I am the one who had the A that produced the child!! My H is the one raising the OC, who we consider OURS, and we are keeping the XOM in the dark, and will hopefully never have to deal with him again!!! I have been forgiven by all those who matter in this situation, with only one exception, and that is OM's W. But, since we don't want OM involved in our lives ever again, I won't ever have the chance to ask for her forgivness. I am greatful that I don't have to deal with the OW/OC issues that these women do. And the way these women have handled their individual situations just amazes me. I don't know how I would have handled it if any of the A's that my H had had produced a child! We know that there are other issues that caused us both to be unfaithful, but we have addressed them, and are working on them. Again, please read about these women's experiences before you judge them and tell them that they are so wrong! If you are here for support, then don't accuse these women of being uncaring, or not blaming their H's for their part in the pregnancy, and see that everyone has their own way of dealing with the situation. What gets everyone on the defensive is when you, from the first post, accuse them of being uncaring women who aren't dealing with the issues before them! What is right for you isn't right for everyone else!<P>Again, read everyone's story, I know, that's a lot of reading, but it will help you see that the H's have been put in their place regarding what they did, and the result of their decisions. No one here has gotten off "scott free" like you accuse them of doing.

Bonnie,<P>I think that you are misjudging here. We have all had, more so in the beginning than later on, great huge mountains of anger at our husbands. You are meeting many of us 6 months, a year, two years or more into recovery. Many of our issues with our husbands have been resolved. We are still angry at her because she still continues to interfere in the marriage long after she should have left.<P>Do I hold both of them equally responsible for the affair? Absolutely. Does he get credit for doing everything he can to make ammends since then? Absolutely. Do I hold her responsible for her continued interference and continuing attempts to sabatoge our marriage since he made his decision to stay with me? Absolutely. 100%! If she stays out of my marriage, does my anger at her diminish? Absolutely<P>Bonnie, this site is mostly about forgiveness. Have you read much of the Harleys' material? It is *one* method of trying to deal with the trauma of an affair and a child born of that affair. If you can make the system work for you, good for you. If you would like to try some other method or one of your own, you are free to. But until you have learned some of the MB principles and tried to apply them, I think you are in the wrong place. You might need to find a site that promotes a method you feel more comfortable with.<P>It doesn't seem that you are disturbed by what we post; it seems to me that you are just plain pissed off about what we post. No one here is trying to prevent you being angry at your H; why would it anger you if we have moved on past that stage?<P>In my case, I am not particularly angry at either H nor OW. Not anymore. If she begins her antics again, I will, once again, be pissed off at her! When her behavior is unacceptable, why would I be pissed off at him? His behavior is past; hers is ongoing--that is the difference.<P>CD is right: you are not being respectful. You are not asking questions to gain understanding of other points of view. You are making accusations and simply putting question marks at the end of them. You are examing my emotions and finding them substandard by your grading scale and I resent it. I am angry at <B>you</B> for <B>your</B> actions. I am not angry at my husband, the Harleys, CDCollins, nor Tigger for what you have said--just you. I believe I have assigned the responsibility appropriately.<P>Mrs. Job

Mrs. J is right... you are looking at the current posts without the histories that go with them. You simply do not know enough about us to judge. In some cases the H and XOW live in different states so there cannot BE much parenting. In some cases the XOW KNEW the H's family and tried to tear it apart anyway. Lots of resentment there.<P>In many cases the XOW is discussed because she is actively TRYING to make life h*ll for the married couple via the OC. Some couples opt for no contact because the mother is impossible to deal with rationally.<P>Our Hs for the most part are "held accountable" via child-support and REPAIRING the marriage. Maybe if you and your H were spending more time on the recovery of your marriage instead of the OC maybe you wouldn't be posting about separation/divorce.<P>I hope your tone improves.

Bonniebb: <P>I have been reading these posts for quite some time and tend to agree with you that these women carry a lot of anger towards the other woman and sometimes not enough towards their own husbands. A also agree that they break off into a clique and refuse any apposing opinions to be stated. I have watched for months as posters who post anything that contradicts their views get run off. I would hope that instead of doing that in the future they open their hearts up and show these women the kindness they would want.<P>However something I have learned by being here is everyone has their own time scale as far as forgiveness and working through anger. They are all in different stages. Personally, I am amazed at Cd's grace in handling her situation. I think she deserves a lot of praise. <P>I hope that at somepoint everyone who posts here will learn to except apposing views and just care about each other. You never know, the person you think is totally wrong one day might turn out to be the person you totally agree with the next. We all just need to accept different opinions.<P>Anyway I am rambling. But all of you including Bonniebb should learn to accept that different people handle affairs differently. I know I have struggled and would not judge anyone.

MaritalBlissHah,<P>I hope I am that closed minded. It is not the BonnieBB has different opinions than the ones I hold. It feels like she is judging us for not being angry enough to suit her tastes or telling us who we may and may not be angry at in our own situation.<P>Once again please remember that you are catching many of us quite a ways don't the recovery trail.<P>Mrs. Job

Welcome to the board maritalblisshah! Would love to hear your story. You said--"Personally, I am amazed at Cd's grace in handling her situation. I think she deserves a lot of praise."<P>I TOTALLY agree!! I would like to point out, though, that CD's case is pretty clearcut that the OC's natural mother is neglectful and emotionally abusive and CD's family will eventually win custody. Cases where the betrayed spouse (male or female) can be an advocate for the OC is incredibly beautiful--I think we all agree. I wish I could do the same but not every OC case lends itself such clarity, such good-coming-out-of-bad heroics... There are many complicated situations with big grey areas.<P>Sometimes the most heroic act POSSIBLE is to salvage your own family and no more than that. So be it and God bless us all, contact or no contact.<P>Did you read that Bonniebb?? Contact AND no contact families are welcome here. So are you. Please read my tips for newbies. I pray your marriage recovers.<P>J, in recovery for 3 years and forgave my H a long time ago because he EARNED it.

Jenny: <P>One day when I have enough time to sit and write out my long complicated story I will. The short version is this - about 3 months after being married a woman called and announced that I should tell my husband "it's a girl". Needless to say we had only dated 6 months before marrying each other. So in doing the math, it really could be right before or right after we started dating. The woman called and pranked our house for several months. She would get really frustrated because I was always the one to answer the phone. Eventually the calls stopped and my husband never would tell me who he thought it was. Then about three years later we found out one of his ex-flings from abou the time we met had a three year old daughter. I insisted my husband call to find out if it was his daughter. He called and she said "well why don't you come see her". So he went. She was a blond haired cute little girl. (Mind you my husband has black hair and dark brown eyes and dark skin). When he asked her directly if she thought it was his daughter, she refused to answer. I suppose it was because he mentioned he would be seeking visitation at the very least. He left and she never called again or made any contact. We were married for about 5 years and we separated about three years ago. He is my best friend and I have wholeheartedly forgiven him and hold no anger towards her. But if she were in the picture I don't know how I would feel. I do think she handled the situation poorly though.<P>I also have been on the other side of the situation, I foolishly fell for a MM and gave my heart to him. I believed his lies and manipulations, but I take full responsibility for that. I knew better than to believe that load of crap, but I chose to believe it anyway. Luckily my situation ended without an OC. His wife does not know about the affair but has her suspicions, which lasted two years. Some days I wonder whether keeping the secret is best. I don't think it's my place to tell her though. I don't want to hurt anyone and just want to go on with my life and not make those kinds of serious mistakes again. <P>Hopefully I won't get pushed out of here as I have no desire to hurt or judge anyone. I have found that reading the postings on here gives me new insight to different ways of handling the enourmous situations that marriage and affairs bring us. <P>And yes I think CD is amazing. I don't know how anyone could handle a situation like that so gracefully. She deserves a mother of the year award.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mrs. Job:<BR><B>MaritalBlissHah,<P>I hope I am not that closed minded. It is not the BonnieBB has different opinions than the ones I hold. It feels like she is judging us for not being angry enough to suit her tastes or telling us who we may and may not be angry at in our own situation.<P>Once again please remember that you are catching many of us quite a ways don't the recovery trail.<P>Mrs. Job</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

maritalblisshah,<P>For the last few years, I have told many wives in similar circumstances to come to this board for help and support for several reasons. The members of the board are extremely supportive and understanding. There is a wide diversity as well - some are wives, some are husbands, some are the other person. All have other child issues. Some families have contact with the other child and some don't. So, regardless of your situation, regardless of how you feel, you will find both acceptance and understanding. <P>However, there are some details which are important for you to know. Bonniebb is not who she says she is. As a matter of fact, she isn't even a wife, an other woman, nor a person who is involved with an other child at all. If you want to read her history, I have posted some links under the subject "Oh, Bonniebb/Suzi.." (page 2). Her opinion is her opinion, but her opinion is one which belittles all - the other woman, the wife, the husband. This is something no person should tolerate. The memebers here do not judge, therefore should not be judged either. <P>When I found out about my husband's affair and about the other child, I had nowhere to go. There were a few boards pertaining to affairs, but none which helped those in my specific situation. A few years ago, Marriage-Builders added this forum to their discussion boards. I couldn't tell you how grateful I was they decided to add it, and couldn't have been more grateful to know I wasn't the only one involved in this type of situation. My feelings and thoughts were both validated and challenged by the members of this board. <P>It's not that the members "run off" those with opposing views, but instead challenge those with preconceived notions about what "should" be done and place blanket statements on their lives. In this situation, there isn't a right way to go about it, nor a wrong way. It's a personal decision, one which include many variables that one way may not suit anothers way. All any person can do is the best for their situation and their family.<P>You don't see a lot of anger spewing about our husbands because really, it's not about that. You also don't know what is going on in the privacy of their own homes. Just because a wife comes and rants about the other woman, doesn't mean her husband isn't hearing the same thing or even worse, at home. <P>Again, I refer you to the post about the real Bonniebb and realize she is only here to promote anger and hatred between the members of the board. <P>Take care,<BR>CoR <BR>

MaritalBliss,<BR>No need to feel pushed out by me. I'm glad you posted your story. It's great when people learn from their mistakes! So are you looking for ways to recover your marriage?<P>Best of luck,<BR>J

MaritalBlissHah,<P>No need to feel pushed out of here.<P>I am sorry that you had to begin your marriage with such shocking news. You didn't even have time to begin to settle in and know each other before you got hit with this.<P>MJ

Jenny & Mrs. Job:<BR>Thanks for your support. Yes it was a shocking way to start our marriage and needless to say although he didn't get anyone else married he did continue to cheat throughout our marriage. <P>Regarding where our marriage sits now, or doesn't sit. When we split, we remained friends because we ourselves have a child together, who is now five years old. It's kind of funny but after the split we became better friends. Much better. A lot of the bitterness was gone. And now even though he could be out with other women or out at bars ect., he spends the majority of his time with me. We have grown closer than we ever were during our marriage. I don't know if we will ever get back together, but I do know that for our childs sake I need this kind of support to stay non bitter towards my husband about what happened during our marriage.<P>And I for one know that all of you are working through issues and need support for that. I can remember horrifying moments in my marriage that I thought I would never survive becuase I had no one to turn too. About the same time the phone calls from the OW started coming I also found out that my husband had "made out" with my cousin weeks before my wedding. To this day they both still claim it was a drunken moment and no sex occured. But that experience more than anything broke our marriage down. And because I was so shamed by the two of them I couldn't go to my family or friends. I was alone and had to work through it alone. I am glad you guys have a support system.

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Enough. Please! Enough!<p>Please let old posts die, this is only bringing turmoil here. Total unnecessary and very unproductive.