</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is my opinion: If I, or any other man looks at a porn mag every once in a while in his own privacy without anyone else knowing it, then no harm is being done. Wouldn't you agree? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Obviously, I disagree and here is why. Just because you do it 'privately' (whatever significance that is supposed to have) does not mean that it doesn't cause harm. It is not knowledge of these activities that hurts, it is the actual action of looking. By keeping it 'private' you are just preventing your spouse from feeling the pain through deceit. This is an interesting recommendation you have, considering your signature line.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is another opinion of mine: I do not have porn issues. My wife told me to get rid of all my mags and what few tapes I had before we got married. I did what she asked me to do. Just because I look at at a few of the mags at my
friends house does not make me have porn issues. Even if I keep one hidden and look at it every once in a while, I am not hurting anyone's feeling if they don't know about it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are controlling her reaction by deceit and forcing a situation upon her that she is not enthusiastic about and which causes her pain by withholding the truth from her. This is extremely controlling behavior. If there is a reason for you to hide it, then that should give you a big clue right there whether or not you should be doing it.

You also have yet to respond to me about ignoring your W's feelings in favor of viewing porn. Which is more important to you, because, right now, you are doing it in spite of what your W feels and that is putting the viewing of this porn ahead of her feelings on the priority list.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have been around for a long long time and even though you may consider my closet as being dirty, I have to disagree. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, deceiving your spouse to continue behavior that causes them harm is a clean closet? Please explain this to me. Also please explain to me the difference between this behavior and the behavior that characterizes an affair. (Recognize that I am not calling this an affair.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but i have just as much of a right to post my opinion as anyone else here at MB. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No one said you don't have a right to. I also have a right to request that you consider what you say. That does not obligate you to do it, but I have the right to ask.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would be glad to further discuss this issue or any other issue together with you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good. I made another thread to avoid hijacking someone else's.

The significance of doing it privately is that I am not harming or hurting anyone’s feeling. I don’t tell my spouse every little detail that happens (or has happened) in my life because I know she does not care to hear about it. Is this your definition of deceit? I have never claimed to be the 100% honest 100% of the time. I do believe that (generally speaking) HONEST IS THE BEST QUALITY. If you have been married for any amount of time or worked in any type of business, you know that withholding certain insignificant parts of certain information can be beneficial to your marriage or business. For instance, if a member of the opposite sex flirts with you, do you go home and tell your spouse about it? If you do, your asking for some uncomfortable feelings which could easily be avoided.

Let me make sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that I have an extremely controlling behavior because I don’t tell my wife every time I look at a girly magazine? If this is true, then in my opinion you are an extreme extremist.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, deceiving your spouse to continue behavior that causes them harm is a clean closet </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Takola, I am not harming my wife by looking at a
nudy mag every once in a while in my own privacy. This is your opinion and you are interrogating me on something that is simply not true. My definition of a clean closet may be quite different that yours. I live a good clean life and cause no harm to other people. Like I said in my other post, I have been around the block a few times and I know the difference between good and bad. You make it sound like my wife is sitting around the house crying and complaining because I view hard-core XXX videos every day. Lighten up, will you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Also please explain to me the difference between this behavior and the behavior that characterizes an affair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, you are taking this issue too far. Using a figure of speach, you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. I know you are not calling it an affair, but to even compare it is being too damn extreme. It seems like you are attempting to make me feel guilty for something that is insignificant. Looking at a porn mag while I am alone has no comparison to having an affair with another woman.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also have a right to request that you consider what you say. That does not obligate you to do it, but I have the right to ask. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe it is interesting to have this conversation with you. You are obviously a very bright person with a uniqueness beyond most. At least we agree that we can both post here without
harming anyone.

I will be gone for the weekend, but I hope to hear from you sometime Monday. Have a great evening.

<small>[ November 07, 2003, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: dean790 ]</small>

Dear Takola,

Thank you for starting another thread for the debate of private viewing of errrotic images.

I try to understand the poster's problems, and try to suggest possible solutions.

Of course expressing frustration with whatever, is a valid reason to post also. Writing for Catharsis.

Sometimes a person posts one post, maybe a few relpies, and we never hear from them agian. Did we solve their problems that simply?

I am trying to be considerate of the position you are taking, and many others at MB, who adamnently oppose pronography. Perhaps a suggestion to Dean 790, would be strategies to negoitiate the issue with a hesitant or opposed spouse.

In the original Post, <Wife> had a problem with porography, and JDNTX had a problem with her husband's voyerism. JD's expression of her objections to H's voyersim has led to an unanticipated separation.

I still do not understand <Wife>'s problems with pornography, although she seems pretty upset about it.

Is there some way we can discuss these issues in a therapeutic, problem solving context, without such harsh, black or white contrasts?

I have seen some posts where women say they have taken a hard line with ther husbands and that has worked for them, so far as they know.

Do you feel that a hard line is the only way for a wife to go, or do you see that compromise may be wise in some cases?

I personally started out with massage instruction videos with my wife, and trying to imporve my massage techniques. That seemed to set the stage for watching some errotic videos together.

DEAN,

Are you willing to work on converting your wife to your beliefs, so you an be honest with her about enjoying errotic images? How would you start?


Blessings,

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

<small>[ November 07, 2003, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For instance, if a member of the opposite sex flirts with you, do you go home and tell your spouse about it?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. And because we have created a very open and honest environment, this does not upset him. He trusts me to react to the flirting in a way that wouldn't hurt him if he knew about it...because he DOES know about it. If he came home and told me a woman flirted with him, I would not be upset...I'd be thankful that he was honest.

My guy has told me more than once that I do the mountain- molehill dance--I confess things that are no big deal. But, the reason that they are no big deal is because he knows he can trust me. I think a part of him wishes I didn't tell him every little thing because it's like I'm trying to create problems, but I know that he is glad that he doesn't have to doubt me and wouldn't have it any other way.

You should ask your wife if she believes that "ignorance is bliss". It is a disrespectful judgement to assume she doesn't want to know the details. You don't have to tell her every time you look at the girly mag, but if you are doing it knowing that if she found out she would disapprove, that is very dishonest.

Lying is not the only way to be dishonest...that's why it is referred to here as Openness and Honesty.

Smile

Dear MB Readers,

This was a post by a wife, Aeryn, # 28648, and I thought it was encouraging, from my outlook.

POST BY AYERN:

I watch porn with my husband.

I don't have any problems letting him read magazines or whatever on his own. Sexual things are natural and nothing to be ashamed of.

I find men other than my husband to be physically attractive, and I understand that doesn't mean I'm in love with these men or my feelings for my husband are in any way less than they would be otherwise. And it doesn't mean anything horrible if he looks at attractive women naked or couples having sex in videos/images.

I'm sorry your wife feels that way, she's missing out on something that could spark a great sex life for the two of you. As far as I'm concerned, all guys look at porn whether single, coupled, married, divorced...whatever.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is because men are sexually stimulated visually. It's a biological fact.

Many women here view it through the mind of a woman. "How do I not measure up to the women in these movies/magazines". "What do they have that I don't?"

Sorry, ladies, men are NOT comparing you when they look at pornography. It has nothing to do with emotions for men.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with sexual gratification through images.

If they were to go out and have an affair, yes, that is wrong. But being sexually stimulated by a photograph isn't.

Most women that are against it have looked at a photograph (not necessarily pornographic) or image of men other than their husband and thought them attractive or sexually appealing, so it's a tad hypocritical.

I know plenty of women that think Keanu Reeves is the hottest man since sliced bread, but if their husband is interested in Pamela Anderson, they raise holy hell.
END OF POST BY AERYN

Re-posted by Quipper

<small>[ November 07, 2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The significance of doing it privately is that I am not harming or hurting anyone’s feeling. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are not the one to judge the harm you are causing another person. That person is the best source (and most credible) of the harm you are causing them. The fact that you are harming your W isn't my opinion, it comes from what you've said SHE said. So, if you really aren't harming her, tell her what you are doing and ask her. She's the best judge of whether or not you are hurting her - NOT you. To say that you know better than she does what harms her is to presuppose your own superiority.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don’t tell my spouse every little detail that happens (or has happened) in my life because I know she does not care to hear about it. Is this your definition of deceit?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anything that isn't 100% honest and open. Can you explain to me the difference between partial truth and a lie? Both are meant to conceal the entire picture from someone else.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HONEST IS THE BEST QUALITY.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is also a quality that you apparently are using in limited amounts with your W, based entirely upon what you want to do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you have been married for any amount of time or worked in any type of business, you know that withholding certain insignificant parts of certain information can be beneficial to your marriage or business.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Business and marriage are two entirely separate things, and you cannot treat them the same and be successful. You will either get fired or divorced. Actually, it's more likely that your spouse will cheat. You are not obligated to your co-workers the same way you are to your spouse, and you do not have the same power to harm co-workers as you do your spouse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For instance, if a member of the opposite sex flirts with you, do you go home and tell your spouse about it? If you do, your asking for some uncomfortable feelings which could easily be avoided. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely. If I don't, I'm not protecting my marriage from many things, the most detrimental of which being an affair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you saying that I have an extremely controlling behavior because I don’t tell my wife every time I look at a girly magazine? If this is true, then in my opinion you are an extreme extremist.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The use of the word 'extremely' is your own. Do not put that on me. Yes, you are controlling her by deception. If she knew the truth do you think she would behave in the same manner towards you? If the answer is no, then you are controlling her reaction and behavior towards you by withholding the truth from her.

We are all so thoughtful

I don't believe it is thoughtfulness for her feelings that keeps you from telling her the truth. If her feelings were the priority, you wouldn't be doing something you know bothers her. I think it is your own interest in continuing your behavior that you are protecting - not your W.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Takola, I am not harming my wife by looking at a
nudy mag every once in a while in my own privacy. This is your opinion and you are interrogating me on something that is simply not true. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is not my opinion. I've read your posts for a while, it is the opinion you say your W expresses. So, since you maintain you are not harming your W, is she senile, stupid, or lying?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I live a good clean life and cause no harm to other people. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I said before, the harm you cause to other people is best judged by them, not you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like I said in my other post, I have been around the block a few times and I know the difference between good and bad. You make it sound like my wife is sitting around the house crying and complaining because I view hard-core XXX videos every day. Lighten up, will you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Where did I ever say that? I said you are hurting your W by what you are doing, and she doesn't even know about it because you won't tell her. If you are so sure you are correct, then, tell her what you are doing and have her say it doesn't hurt. Have her come out here and tell me it doesn't. Then, and only then, will I concede. It is your W's feelings that matter here, not mine.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, you are taking this issue too far. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mountain or molehill is in the eye of the beholder. IMHO, you are taking your W's mountain and making it a molehill.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know you are not calling it an affair, but to even compare it is being too damn extreme. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I don't think it is. It is deceptive, hurtful, and ignores the feelings of your spouse.

Here is a good point I'd like to make. Let's say your W liked to masturbate to nude pictures of your best male friends. Heck, let's say she masturbates to videos of your best male friends masturbating. Let's say she does it a few times a month. You complain, and she just changes so that she does it behind your back and doesn't tell you...would this be satisfactory to you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It seems like you are attempting to make me feel guilty for something that is insignificant. Looking at a porn mag while I am alone has no comparison to having an affair with another woman. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just because something is insignificant to you does not make it insignificant to everyone - and that includes your W. You need to take her feelings very seriously. That's the point I'm trying to make here. You keep minimizing and invalidating those feelings.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will be gone for the weekend, but I hope to hear from you sometime Monday. Have a great evening. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You do the same.

<small>[ November 07, 2003, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

Quipper,

The H of the woman you quote, then, should not worry about viewing pornography. However, her views should not be forced upon other women who do not agree. If your W feels this way - hey - go buy a Playboy. I'll buy you one.

The problem here is that there are other views on this that are just as valid, and they shouldn't be ignored, minimized, or invalidated simply because you don't agree with them.

I don't recall stating on here my views of pornography at all, although I did on EN a few years ago. What I say is that if your W has a problem with it (or your H for that matter); then, the marriage has a problem with it and she is part of that marriage. You are outside the POJA, and depleting from the Love Bank. It's not a matter of right or wrong, it is a matter of 'does this serve your marriage' and priorities.

Welcome to marriage, an institution where you have to respect and address other people's concerns even if you disagree.

<small>[ November 07, 2003, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

Dear Takola,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

What Dean 790 and JDNTX are saying is that if a woman comes on strong, the husband may just carry on, on the sly. You seem to be advocating for a stong position for a woman to stand on her objections to Porn.

I admint that I apparently leaped to a conclusion that you yourself were anti-porn.

I suggest that it is wiser advice, for <Wife> or whoever else has a problem with porn, to look for areas of possible compromise, rather than stand on their rights, as you seem to be suggesting.

In Negotiating, classifications can be crossed, particularly in a marriage. "OK, you get your porn, but I get a new kitchen!" or a "New Car"
at least, "A New Refrigerator"

Certainly it is good for anyone to be in touch with their feelings on a subject. Certainly it is not good to withhold feelings in a marital negotiation. However, I have not seen anyone suggesting a particular website for women to overcome an overblown emotional objection to pornography. Maybe Dean 790 can start a Desensitizing site for women who are highly emotionally charged against pornography.

Your analysis does not include a balance of the amount of fun for the husband. The amount of pain of the wife should be balanced against the potential plesure for the husband.

Certainly emotions are often more valid for women than for men. But if I don't like my wife to wear a red dress, and my wife's club is having a red dress ball, that my wife wants to attend, it seems to me that I have a duty to enter therapy, and get over my problems with my wife wearing a red dress, when she is only wearing the red dress to the Red Dress Ball.

As a wife, a woman does not have an unlimited privilege to insist upon all frivololus fancies. Just because a woman objects to something, does not mean the husband most comply.

Should <wife> reply with more details, You seem ready to say, "Stick to your guns" I would try to suggest possible compromises.

The posting style of many in Emotional Needs is with both guns blazzing. I try to allow room for compromise, and room for my suggestions to be incorrect, and withdrawn or substantially modified.

Quipper

<small>[ November 07, 2003, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

"However, I have not seen anyone suggesting a particular website for women to overcome an overblown emotional objection to pornography. Maybe Dean 790 can start a Desensitizing site for women who are highly emotionally charged against pornography."

overcome an overblown emotional objection to pronography? desensitizing? I'm not even sure how to respond to that, I'm a bit taken aback by your cavalier attitude... you like looking at nude women, essentially prostitutes, and so you cunningly use your verbal skills and all your "training" skills to rationalize something that has been considered disgraceful for ages despite various attempts by psychologists and sociologists (Kinsey and the like...) to normalize it... and you actually turn it around and project the problem onto those who have a problem with the problem...

"Your analysis does not include a balance of the amount of fun for the husband. The amount of pain of the wife should be balanced against the potential plesure for the husband."

How far are you willing to take that line of reasoning? I can think of many a thing that might bring me potential pleasure that would cause my husband pain, are you really suggesting we just try and balance that?! a little pain for you, a little fun for me, a little fun for you, a little pain for me... a husband's fun should not hurt his wife, a wife's fun should never hurt her husband, at least not in a loving and respecting relationship... I want much more than that from my marriage and I know my husband does as well...

I would challenge you to listen to the message on www.2ndglance.org in its entirety... maybe without your rationalization filter running at full speed

Dear Raz,

Thanks for your reply.

I don't have my sound working on my computers right now. So I guess I can't listen. I did go to the website you suggested, and it speaks of sexual purity. If that is your mission, I don't expect you will be able to help many real people solve their marital problems, which often involve unfulfiled sexual desires. I think sex is to be enyoyed, and feel no need to purify sex. If purity is your bag, I see your helpfulness on the MB board as rather limited.

My wife has fun watching errotic videos with me. The only times she has problems is when she has been subjected to prudish influences. My wife is also subject to being influenced by the right wing Chritians.

My wife has never expressed that she is hurt by pornography, or by my use of pornography. My wife has expressed the idea that we should not be naughty, as pornography is considered in some ultra conserviative Christian Teachings.

But the challenge at hand, is <wife> and JDNTX.

JDNTX tried the aproach you and Takola have suggested. Uncompromising confrontation. What I suggested to JD is to find a compromise that would fit her comfort level, and satisfy her husband. I suggested teh book, KOSHEER ADULTERY, which has a number of marital sexual relataionship enhancement ideas.

The fact that you and Takola have no answers for the separation caused by the actions matching your advise, to me, means you are a Cathartic Poster. You are espousing a particular position, and if someone gets hurt, or a marriage fails, that is too bad. I have my personal preferences, and I discuss my challenges, but my posts are intended to help the indiviudals save their marriage. Apparently you could care less about saving a marriage, as long as the woman champions against pronography.

As an individual, you have the right to your opinions, and your causes. My cause in posting to MB is to help save marriages.

Your words and those of Takola, would incite <wife> to continue a prudish path. If that works, great. Dean 790 has just given you an example of how taking a hard line on pornography has failed for his wife, in their marriage. You have no answer, or suggestion of a compromise, except to make Dean 790 wrong, to fit your mold.

The frustration of the male sex drive is not a bright idea. The secret offshoots are not always as positive, as desirable.

You and Takola simply say stop pornography. You have no alternative suggestions, nor messages for the wives who have encountered difficulties following your advice.

I would prefer to be wrong, and that you and Takola will now come up with consructive suggestions. I am holding my breath.

TAKOLA

Dean 790 made a postitive suggestion, that if it bothered a woman that her husband was looking at women, the she could leave nude pictures of men around, to drop the hint that pornography should be negotiated. You didnot comment on his suggesting, nor offer a better way to achieve a compromise. You simply attacked Dean 790. If you were interested in helping a marriage, you would make better suggestions for compromise.

I have been developing my thoughts on Catartic posters. Thanks for brining me further along.

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

<small>[ November 08, 2003, 02:27 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quipper:
[QB] Dear Raz,


"I did go to the website you suggested, and it speaks of sexual purity. If that is your mission, I don't expect you will be able to help many real people solve their marital problems, which often involve unfulfiled sexual desires."

I disagree (obviously...) both partners striving for sexual purity would help many marriages. Some unfulfilled sexual desires should not be fulfilled... some desires need to be held at bay, it's called self control, and it's a sign of maturity. A husband and wife should have sexual desires, and they should be towards each other (only) it's the way we were designed, but if a man's desire is that his wife pretend to be a topless stranger you meet at a bar, that's not automatically healthy for your marriage just because you enjoy it...

"I think sex is to be enyoyed,"
of course it should, and one shouldn't need pornographic images to do so

"and feel no need to purify sex. If purity is your bag, I see your helpfulness on the MB board as rather limited."

If purity is such a small thing to you I see your helpfulness on this board as rather limited, I see your rationalization and moral relativism as rather unlimited.

"My wife has fun watching errotic videos with me. The only times she has problems is when she has been subjected to prudish influences."
Prudish influences? like her own intuition... something inside of her feeling a bit defiled...

"My wife is also subject to being influenced by the right wing Chritians."

why is it that purity is right wing?

"My wife has never expressed that she is hurt by pornography, or by my use of pornography."

If she had, would you recognize it? Maybe she won't because she knows you "need" it... maybe she feels bad that she's not enough for you and that's real hard for a woman to say to her man.

"My wife has expressed the idea that we should not be naughty, as pornography is considered in some ultra conserviative Christian Teachings."

She doesn't want to be naughty, as SHE considers it...

I don't have time to respond to the rest right now, there's an eleven month old looking up at me with the most beautiful blue eyes,
raz

Dear Raz,

I am not saying that a woman cannot be hurt by my oggling. Before I was married, I had a lover-companion, with whom I recall going to some nuddist parties and beaches. I recall watching a voluptuous nudist lady playng volley ball. My companion was young and firm, but not so voluptuous. I saw her cast her eyes down, as she perecived what I was looking at. Apparently she felt diappointed taht she did not have my attention. I saw that she was disapointed, I trhink I tried to ask her what was wrong, and she said, "Oh nothing."

It took me a few seconds to figure out how best to understand her feelings, and how to respond. I said, "Lets go swimming!" A smile came on her face, and we went in the water, and splashed and had fun. The ocean water was rather cloudy, and I could not see but a few inches into the water, and I would have been more comfortable with trunks on.

You have nice vivid images, seared consci;ences and deer struck by trucks. I suspect that you have posted to MB before, under another handle.

Perhaps we can do team posting. I don't think you realized I had posted to Jama on LUNCHES when you posted. You can present the purity perspective, and I will present a wider range of options. The important thing, that we may be able to agree upon, is to provide an atmosphere where individuals feel comfortable posting thier problems, and considering a wide range of options. I certrainly have no problem with the purity option as an important option to consider.

I think Christ's teachings of forgiveness are being overlooked by many in the world, in trying to War, or Punish, or Change Regimes, or Fighting Terroism, or Fighting Crime, and finding ways for these targeted people to find redemption through effective therapeutic programs is an un-met challenge.

Blessings,

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

<small>[ November 08, 2003, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

You are not the one to judge the harm you are causing another person. That person is the best source (and most credible) of the harm you are causing them. The fact that you are harming your W isn't my opinion, it comes from what you've said SHE said. So, if you really aren't harming her, tell her what you are doing and ask her. She's the best judge of whether or not you are hurting her - NOT you. To say that you know better than she does what harms her is to presuppose your own superiority.
VERY WELL SAID. I DID NOT SAY THAT I KNOW BETTER THAN SHE DOES WHAT’S HARMING HER. IF THERE IS SOMETHING BOTHERING MY W THEN SHE WILL TELL ME. SHE SAID SHE DIDN’T LIKE ME HAVING THESE KINDS OF MAGS, SO WE THREW THEM AWAY. HERE’S ANOTHER POINT ABOUT BEING 100% HONEST: HAVE YOU EVER BEEN WITH SOME OF YOUR FRIENDS AND TALKED ABOUT OLD RELATIONSHIPS OR HOW HOT YOU THOUGHT A GUY OR GIRL WAS? DID YOU GO HOME AND TELL YOUR SPOUSE ABOUT THE CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH YOUR FRIENDS. IF YOU DID, THEN YOU’RE ASKING FOR UNCOMFORTABLE FEELINGS. I KNOW THIS ISN’T THE ISSUE HERE, BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT 100% HONESTY. I DON’T TALK ABOUT OLD GIRLFRIENDS IN MY WIFE’S PRESENCE BECAUSE SHE DOESN’T WANT TO HEAR IT. I WOULDN'T DO IT ANYWAY BECAUSE IT'S NOT A PROPER CONVERSATION TO HAVE WITH ONE'S SPOUSE. IT'S BEST LEFT AS WATER UNDER THE BRIDGE.

Anything that isn't 100% honest and open. Can you explain to me the difference between partial truth and a lie? Both are meant to conceal the entire picture from someone else.
A LIE IS A FALSE STATEMENT DELIBERATELY PRESENTED AS THE TRUTH. PARTIAL TRUTH IS NOT MEANT TO CONCEAL THE ENTIRE PICTURE. IF MY W ASKS ME A QUESTION I WILL TELL THE TRUTH - THIS INCLUDES “DO YOU HAVE A PLAYBOY IN YOUR CLOSET?” MY ANSWER WOULD BE, "YES, THROW IT AWAY IF IT BOTHERS YOU".
I AM NOT GOING TO TELL A BOLD FACED LIE TO MY WIFE AND I SUGGEST NOT TELLING LIES TO ANYONE WHO YOU CARE DEEPLY ABOUT.

It is also a quality that you apparently are using in limited amounts with your W, based entirely upon what you want to do.
I AM AN HONEST PERSON. I HAVE EVEN BEEN TOLD THAT I AM TOO HONEST FOR MY OWN GOOD. I’LL TELL THE TRUTH IF SOMEONE ASKS. THIS HAS GOT ME INTO A HEAP OF TROUBLE IN THE PAST, BUT I DON’T MIND CONFESSING TO SOMETHING I’VE DONE. I AM CONFIDENT ENOUGH IN MY ACTIONS TO DO IT AND THEN ADMIT TO DOING IT. ALTHOUGH, I AM NOT GOING TO GO AROUND BRAGGING ABOUT ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING I DO OR HAVE DONE. AGAIN, IN MY OPINION, YOU ARE GOING EXTREMELY OVERBOARD WHEN YOU SAY MY QUALITY OF HONESTY IS IN LIMITED AMOUNTS IN MY OWN MARRIAGE.

Business and marriage are two entirely separate things, and you cannot treat them the same and be successful. You will either get fired or divorced. Actually, it's more likely that your spouse will cheat. You are not obligated to your co-workers the same way you are to your spouse, and you do not have the same power to harm co-workers as you do your spouse.
I MUST AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS; MARRIAGE AND BUSINESS ARE TWO COMPLETELY SEPARATE ENTITIES. THE POINT I WAS MAKING IS THAT IF YOU ARE AN EXTREME TRUTH TELLER, YOU WILL GET YOURSELF INTO TROUBLE IN BOTH MARRIAGE OR BUSINESS. “EXTREME TRUTH TELLER”, MEANING TO TELL EVERY LITTLE DETAIL THAT HAPPENS DURING THE COURSE OF EVERY DAY. I USE “HONESTY IS THE BEST QUALITY” AS A GENERAL RULE. I DO NOT MEAN, “TELL YOUR SPOUSE EVERY LITTLE DETAIL OF YOUR LIFE EACH AND EVERY DAY”. I BELIEVE ANY EXPERIENCED ATTORNEY, HUSBAND OR WIFE WOULD TELL YOU THE SAME.

quote:For instance, if a member of the opposite sex flirts with you, do you go home and tell your spouse about it? If you do, your asking for some uncomfortable feelings which could easily be avoided. Absolutely. If I don't, I'm not protecting my marriage from many things, the most detrimental of which being an affair.
I DON’T KNOW HOW YOU ARE RELATING AN AFFAIR WITH A MEMBER OF THE OPPOSITE SEX FLIRTING WITH YOU (OR ANYONE ELSE). I AM COMPLETELY DEDICATED TO MY WIFE AND MARRIAGE. IF SOME LADY FLIRTS WITH ME, I AM ABSOLUTELY SURE THERE WILL BE NO COMPLIANCE ON MY PART. I'VE BEEN DOWN THAT ROAD IN THE PAST WITH OLD GIRLFRIENDS AND IT'S NOT WORTH A FIRST THOUGHT IN MY MARRIAGE.

It is not my opinion. I've read your posts for a while, it is the opinion you say your W expresses. So, since you maintain you are not harming your W, is she senile, stupid, or lying?
I BELIEVE YOU ARE TRYING TO GET A REACTION OUT OF ME BY SUGGESTING MY WIFE IS ONE IF THE THREE YOU HAVE MENTIONED. LET ME ASK YOU THIS; HOW MUCH TRUTH IS THERE TO THE OLD SAYING "WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW WON'T HURT YOU?" AGAIN, MY W IS NOT BEING HARMED IN ANY WAY. I DISPOSED OF MY MAGS AND TAPES WHEN WE GOT MARRIED BECAUSE SHE REQUESTED IT. SHE NEVER SAID, “DON’T EVER LOOK AT A PORN MAG FOR AS LONG AS WE’RE TOGETHER”.

As I said before, the harm you cause to other people is best judged by them, not you.
THAT’S RIGHT. WHEN SOMEONE STARTS TELLING ME THAT I’M HURTING THEIR FEELING OR CAUSING THEM HARM, THEN I WILL RESPECT THEIR WISHES AND REACT ACCORDINGLY .

quote:Like I said in my other post, I have been around the block a few times and I know the difference between good and bad. You make it sound like my wife is sitting around the house crying and complaining because I view hard-core XXX videos every day. Lighten up, will you?

Where did I ever say that? I said you are hurting your W by what you are doing, and she doesn't even know about it because you won't tell her. If you are so sure you are correct, then, tell her what you are doing and have her say it doesn't hurt. Have her come out here and tell me it doesn't. Then, and only then, will I concede. It is your W's feelings that matter here, not mine.
I SAID, “YOU MAKE IT SOUND LIKE”, NOT THAT YOU DID SAY IT VERBATIM. SO, IF SHE DON’T KNOW ABOUT THE MAG I KEEP, THEN IT’S NOT HURTING ANYONE. THE TERM “HURT BY DECEPTION” IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE DOESN’T FLY BECAUSE IT IS INSIGNIFICANT AND UNKNOWN. THERE’S NO HURT BEING DONE. BY NO MEANS AM I GOING TO HAVE MY W COME OUT HERE TO READ YOUR INTOLERANCE AGAINST GUYS LOOKING AT GIRLY MAGS IN THEIR OWN PRIVACY. THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES WILL TOLERATE ANY KIND OF MATERIAL EVEN CLOSELY RELATED TO PORN. THERE ARE SOME WHO REALLY ENJOY THE MOST EXTREME PORN, AND THEN THERE ARE OTHERS WHO FALL SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN. MY WIFE’S TOLERANCE IS SOMEWHAT LESS THAN MINE.

Mountain or molehill is in the eye of the beholder. IMHO, you are taking your W's mountain and making it a molehill.
IT IS NOT A MOUNTAINOUS ISSUE BETWEEN MY WIFE AND I. IT THE PAST, IT HAS BEEN A MOLEHILL OF AN ISSUE.

Here is a good point I'd like to make. Let's say your W liked to masturbate to nude pictures of your best male friends. Heck, let's say she masturbates to videos of your best male friends masturbating. Let's say she does it a few times a month. You complain, and she just changes so that she does it behind your back and doesn't tell you...would this be satisfactory to you?
OH MY GOD! YOU ARE ON THE BORDERLINE OF BEING DISGUSTING. YOU ARE MAKING ME WONDER IF YOU ARE AS INTELLIGENT AS I THOUGHT YOU WAS IN THE PAST POSTS. THIS IS RIDICULOUS! LET’S COMPARE SOMETHING MORE REALISTIC. HOW ABOUT IF MY WIFE HAS A PLAYGIRL IN HER CLOSET AND LOOKS AT IT EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE WHEN I’M NOT THERE. WOULD THIS HURT MY FEELINGS? HELL NO! I HAVE OFFERED TO BUY THEM FOR HER AND LOOK AT THEM TOGETHER WITH HER. IF SHE WANT TO KEEP THEM PUT UP IN HER PLACE, THEN I COMPLETELY COMPLY. NO HARM DONE ON MY SIDE.

Just because something is insignificant to you does not make it insignificant to everyone - and that includes your W. You need to take her feelings very seriously. That's the point I'm trying to make here. You keep minimizing and invalidating those feelings.
YOU HAVE OPENED MY EYES TO WHAT’S HAPPENING AND I WILL DEFINITELY KEEP TAKOLA’S COMMENTS IN MEMORY. I DO APPRECIATE YOU SHARING YOUR THOUGHTS WITH ME.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OH MY GOD! YOU ARE ON THE BORDERLINE OF BEING DISGUSTING. YOU ARE MAKING ME WONDER IF YOU ARE AS INTELLIGENT AS I THOUGHT YOU WAS IN THE PAST POSTS. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dean, I have a point here. Yes, this is disgusting. The point here is that you draw a differentiation between knowing the subject of the pornographic matter and not knowing them. Some people, and you seem to be one, don't know the person in the porn or their name. It isn't really a person, it is seen as a pornographic work. Others don't really see a differentiation between knowing and not knowing the subject in the pornography. There is a person there (in the cases we've discussed before a woman, so I will use that) - a real live breathing woman with a name, a face, livelihood, and a family. People who know her and love her. This is a person. To them, it is not a work of pornography - you are masturbating to pictures and scenes of a live person who is not them. They see it as sharing your sexuality with this person, when it should be reserved for them.

It is not all about the people in porn looking more attractive and making people insecure. It isn't all about moral or religious objections to porn. It is about a different perspective, one that (I am guessing based upon your posts) you do not share.

You say that my scenario is disgusting, and I agree with you. What I am saying is that some people see the use of pornography in the same light in which you see my scenario.

<small>[ November 13, 2003, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

Dean,

If your wife objects and "you love her" why do you continue?

If your wife objects and you are 100% honest, why do you continue?

I am not addressing porn in paticular b/c that is a whatever floats your boat thing. But if there is anything in a marriage that is not enthusastically agreed on and mutually accepted it doens't belong there.

I have heard people suggest negoaition where your spouse would give a little but what are you willing to give, except for deception. If I do it behind her back it's ok... what if your kids took that approach. If I do it and don't tell then I am not out of line......I don't think you would have viewed it that way, and I really doubt you want that kind of treatment from your spouse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> HERE’S ANOTHER POINT ABOUT BEING 100% HONEST: HAVE YOU EVER BEEN WITH SOME OF YOUR FRIENDS AND TALKED ABOUT OLD RELATIONSHIPS OR HOW HOT YOU THOUGHT A GUY OR GIRL WAS? DID YOU GO HOME AND TELL YOUR SPOUSE ABOUT THE CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH YOUR FRIENDS. IF YOU DID, THEN YOU’RE ASKING FOR UNCOMFORTABLE FEELINGS. I KNOW THIS ISN’T THE ISSUE HERE, BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT 100% HONESTY. I DON’T TALK ABOUT OLD GIRLFRIENDS IN MY WIFE’S PRESENCE BECAUSE SHE DOESN’T WANT TO HEAR IT. I WOULDN'T DO IT ANYWAY BECAUSE IT'S NOT A PROPER CONVERSATION TO HAVE WITH ONE'S SPOUSE. IT'S BEST LEFT AS WATER UNDER THE BRIDGE. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My nor I continue to talk about old flames, exh/w, whoever but I can assure you all requests for info are addressed with 100 % honesty and anything that might even have the slightest chance of harming our marriage is told in 100% honesty.

For example, my H eats lunch daily with some of the guys, well the new waitress at the restaurant didn't know (couldn't see his wedding ring) made some very bold gestures. My H called me from the cell phone to tell me what happened. Why? Because he didn't want me to hear it in the form of a joke from one of the boys. He knew that would be embarressing for me.

He didn't do it because I don't trust him, he told because I do trust him TO NOT DO ANYTHING THAT WILL HURT ME.

That is what I think tak is trying to say. If your spouse or anyone reading this is hurt by your actions WHY keep doing them? It is wrong to slip around, to watch porn, to smoke a joint, to spend too much money, to go to get a drink etc.

Le

<small>[ November 13, 2003, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Le ]</small>

THIS IS GETTING PRETTY DEEP, BUT I DO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU’RE SAYING. I DON’T KNOW THE PORN INDUSTRY VERY WELL BUT I DO LOOK AT (AS YOU KNOW) A FEW MAGS EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE. IN MY OPINION, A FINE FEMALE BODY IS A PLEASURE TO LOOK AT EVEN WITHOUT GETTING SEXUALLY EXCITED. I BELIEVE A MUSCULAR FEMALE BODY IS JUST AS MUCH OF A PLEASURE TO ADMIRE WITHOUT GETTING SEXUALLY EXCITED. SINCE YOU ARE A LADY, WOULDN'T YOU SAY THE SAME ABOUT A FINE MALE PHYSIQUE? IF A MALE OR FEMALE WANTS TO EXPOSE THEIR BODY TO PUBLIC VIEW THEN THE PUBLIC CAN MAKE A CHOICE WHETHER TO LOOK AT IT OR NOT. EXOTIC DANCE CLUBS AND BODYBUILDING CONTESTS ARE DESIGNED FOR THE PUBLIC TO VIEW ALMOST NAKED BODIES.

LET’S LOOK AT THE DEFINITION OF PORNOGRAPHY: THE DEPICTION OF EROTIC BEHAVIOR (AS IN PICTURES OR WRITING) INTENDED TO CAUSE SEXUAL EXCITEMENT.

IS A FREDRICK’S MAGAZINE PORNOGRAPHIC MATERIAL? WHAT ABOUT THE LADY IN THE GROCERY STORE WHO HAS ON A MICRO SKIRT AND A TIGHT WHITE T-SHIRT WITH NO BRA? YOU KNOW SHE’S DRESSED THIS WAY INTENDING TO CAUSE SEXUAL EXCITEMENT IN ANYONE WHO WANTS TO ADMIRE. HOW ABOUT THE MIDDLE AGED SKINNY NEIGHBOR WHO GETS A BIG BOOB JOB AND LAYS OUT IN THE BACK YARD TOPLESS? IS THAT PORNO? SOME MAY SAY “YES” AND SOME MAY SAY “NO”.

I BELIEVE YOU AND I COULD DEBATE THIS ISSUE FOR ETERNITY AND GET NO WHERE. YOU AND I HAVE DIFFERENT MINDS, THOUGHTS, AND IDEAS ABOUT PORN. I WAS RAISED AROUND A BUNCH OF GUYS, AND WHEN I WAS A KID, MY OLDER FRIENDS ALWAYS HAD THEM. THEY GOT THEM FROM THEIR DADS OR FRIENDS OLDER THAN THEM. MY DAD CARRIED A FEW EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE BEHIND THE SEAT OF HIS PICKUP. SOMETIMES WE WOULD LOOK AT THEM TOGETHER. ALL THROUGH HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE WE WOULD GET THEM AND TRADE THEM LIKE BASEBALL CARDS.

LIKE I SAID BEFORE, MY WIFE ASK ME TO TRASH MY MAGS AND TAPES SO WE DID. SHE NEVER SAID “DON’T EVER LOOK AT A GIRLY MAG FOR AS LONG AS WE ARE TOGETHER”. SO...I AM NOT HURTING ANYONE BY DECEIT.

IF YOU WANT TO CONTINUE THIS INSIGNIFICANT BS BETWEEN YOU AND I THEN I’LL READ YOUR POSTS AND REPLY. WHEN I KNOW THAT I AM HURTING SOMEONE THEN I WILL ACT ACCORDINGLY.

Dean,

I just have one question for you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHEN I KNOW THAT I AM HURTING SOMEONE THEN I WILL ACT ACCORDINGLY. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When are you going to do that, when she's gone into withdrawal? When she's found someone that doesn't hurt her and is having an A?

If you are having to deceive someone, then bud that is NOT honesty.

You aren't protecting her, you are protecting yourself. I don't care what it is, if you can't be 100% honest then you are asking for trouble. I just hope Tak is around to help you pick up the pieces b/c she's pretty good at that...

It appears to me you can't see the forest for the trees. Imagine your wife hiding things behind your back that you have asked her to stop doing? You ok with that?????????? I sure hope so.

le

<small>[ November 13, 2003, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Le ]</small>

Dear Le,

Perhaps you know the true identity of Raz. She seems to have posted here before, apparentlyunder a different name, I don't know for sure. Raz and Hurting Promise Keeper seem to take a strongly anti-porn position, regardless of POJA. Takola is strongly anti-porn without total POJA.

You are speaking from a more logical, reasoning perspective, apparently. The issue is larger than Dean 790. Many men that I know make it a habit not to tell their wives if they stop by a topless or strip joint. Men who glance at playboy aften do not report this to their wives.

I admit that I hurt my girl friend, when we went to a nudist beach and I oggled a voluptuous nudist playing volley ball. I think ther is an important difference between oggling and lusting. Lusting is looking with the intent for insertion.

I remember one woman who posted that her husband left a half hour early for work everyday, and she tried to follow him, and aparently he was masturbating and ejaculating in the car before work, because his wife decided not to be available for sex in the morning.

The serial murderer in Florida, Ted Bundy, used to work himself into a murderous frenzy by getting excited with a pron movie, then go out without ejaculating, and rape and murder. That is a highly unusual use of porn.

Perhaps you are, yourself, anti-porn. Certainly you have a right to your opinion. If you are not anti-porn, I am having trouble seeing how these men who are trying to be considerate of their wive's feelings, are hurting their wives.

As I have posted, I am fortunate enough to get POJA for a porn DVD about once a week or so. I feel it enhances my marriage.

You do not state how porn plays any part in your marriage.

You do not suggest any approaches to Dean 790 to approach his wife to get POJA on the issue.

My suggestion is to take a step by getting POJA to order some massage instruction tapes.

Irregardles of your opinions, you seem like a thoughtful poster, and your help in posting to others appears to be of significant value. I am working to respect the divergent opinions of other posters, and to boost other poster's self esteem. Please advise me of how I can do better. This thread seems like a good place for constructive criticism. Do I detect that you have a problem with some parts of Scientiolgy? Which parts?

People come to Marriage Builders with pre-conceived ideas of the roles of a husband and a wife. These ideas sometimes block the enjoyment or workability of the marriage. By encouraging posters to examine theri pre-cast ideas, to see if they can broaden their perspective to inlude more workable options for the increased enjoyment of one or the other partner, then MB is working.

Certainly, some posters may wish to take a particualr moral high road, and preach to other posters. If you see me stuck in a particular postition, please point that stuckness out to me.

I'll check back for your weekly evaluations.

Blessings,

Quipper,
husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

<small>[ November 20, 2003, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Nokomis ]</small>

When have I come out with a strong anti-porn post on here that had nothing to do with the POJA?

Similar posting styles? If you are hinting that I may be Raz, I am not. LE does know my true identity, btw. Most of the old-timers do. There's a picture of me and my H on the MB online photo album. I have no idea who Raz is and neither have I read the posts on this thread by Raz. I haven't read all of the posts on this thread, as I am too busy.

<small>[ November 14, 2003, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

Dear Takola,

Thanks for your clarification. I will edit my post to correct my errors.

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling