The debates have gotten pretty heated on this board and i am sure blanket statements are being made. i read one that said"children should only be conceived in marriage and if not should be given up for adoption, that is the unselfish thing to do" (something close to that) many know I was a single mom the dad didn't want to be involved and i will be damned if i will EVER feel selfish for having, raising and most importantly loving that child. My child grew up surrounded by so much love the fact the father wasn't <BR>involved didn't really matter. Just because a couple adopts is NOT a guarentee they won't divorce nor does it mean that single moms will always be single. Igf a women truely feels like she is not ready to be a WONDERFUL mother and father than yes the greates thing she can do is give that child up for adoption but I am sure there are a LOT of people who were raised by a single mother who think their mothers walk on water and would not trade their lives for Anything! My best friend was raised bty a single mother and they are both two of the greatest women I know. Adoption is NOT the be all and end all for all unplanned pregnancies. Is it a wonderful option and for some the greatest give you could ever give, of course but just think how many children would have been better off if their fathers had been out of their lives? Two parents does not always equal better! I for one and VERY happy our ow did not give the oc up for adoption, she really is a good mom and my hubby and i both love the oc. I would never have said that the first year after dday but i can say it now. I understand why many wish the ow gave the oc up but if, and only if, the ow wants to be a great mom than i am happy the oc will grow up with at least one parent that loves it.<P>

I was a teen-age bride [shotgun wedding], had 2 children in my teens, and divorced when 20 yrs. old. I met my present H when I was 21 yrs. old, with two children. H adopted one of my children when asked by child, my other child changed their name back to their, biological, father's name, and never wanted to be adopted by my present H of 28 yrs. <P>Their "real" father could have cared less. He never paid a dime in CS. Never called. My children are now grown, and yes, I am very proud of both of them. One child has a relationship with their biological father, the other chooses not to. <P>I agree with you, whatif?. I could not have given up my children for adoption either, as young as I was. I have a very wealthy Aunt and Uncle, who offered to adopt my children when my teen-age marriage broke up. I turned them down. They finally did adopt, in time.<P>I had a horrible father in my childhood. But, you can't pick your parents. Having a father is not always a good thing. <P>Bonniebb, you cannot force a man to be a good father, biological, or not. Just like the guy in California, a while back, who fathered over 10,000 children in a sperm bank. They are now worried about incest in that area of the state. <P>I guess my point is, that, you cannot force paternal feelings, just like you can't force democracy on a country. It has to be something a person'[s] really wanted. <P>NO one chooses their parents. No one is guarnteed a great relationship with a parent, or parents. The OC is probably better off without the biological father. <P>Just my opinion.<P>ember

whatif,<BR>It's ok you raised your child alone and she turned out so great. I was raised by two parents and you are right...my mom cheated on my dad and divorced him but never married om. So a married situation gone wrong is not easy.<BR>The difference is I KNOW my parents anticipated my birth. Mom AND Dad.<BR>In our case my H was ambivilant in awaiting the birth of ow's child. Through her antics 3 months of his life have passed w/o a fathers involvement due to her hatred of H and my relationship.<BR>She is twisted and annoying. She is ruining her other 3 kids lives w/this mess. All of her extended family must think she's crazy to have made the choices she did. For the life of my H's child she's turned the lives of 5 plus upsidedown. <BR>So I think it is totally selfish of her to have had a baby she plans to use as a pawn. Not caring about him but HER needs.<P>Sorry but I think it's selfish what she did. Used her ability to birth a baby to further her involvement with a married man who never lied and said he'd be with her. Who always said he planned a life with his wife. She was the sexual deviant also. SHE GOT TO PLAN TO KEEP HIS SPERM AGAINST HIS WISHES!<BR>TRUE TRUE TRUE!!!!<P>D_DAY he said he begged her to abort(she's done it 2x's before)She said NO!<BR>Well her plan to have my H backfired as he saw HER as a liar. She said she was on the pill and would never have another baby as she had 3!<P>Guess what? The boy will always suffer from not being able to be with his dad the way it should be.<P>I suffered at 17 when my parents divorced and they wanted me. I can't imagine knowing one or the other never wanted me.<P>OK? OK!!!<P>No situation w/o a missing parent is too good...ow just chose it on their own as you did.<P>love<BR>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

So I think it is totally selfish of her to have had a baby she plans to use as a pawn. Not caring about him but HER needs.<BR> <BR> Completely different than a SINGLE mon who wants to be a WONDERFUL MOM. A good mom never uses her child.<P>Guess what? The boy will always suffer from not being able to be with his dad the way it should be.<BR> <BR> Not Always true, I am married now and my child ADORES and LOVES her new father more than many kids love their "natural" parents.<BR>" I can't imagine knowing one or the other never wanted me.<P> I would hope to God that it is never put to the OC that way. i would hope when the time comes that the father has enough class and compassion to tell oc that, "you did nothing wronge i was just unable to be a father to you." I NEVER bad mouth my first's father i always told her that "your father just couldn't be a good father so he did the best thing for you and that was to let you be raised by someone who could be a good parent to you."<P>No situation w/o a missing parent is too good...ow just chose it on their own as you did.<P><BR> Damn right i did and i am sure my child would tell you how happy she is and how unselfish i am and that i am a wonderful mother<P>[/B][/QUOTE]<P>

whatif,<BR> Chill if you have read gems post you would know she would never hurt this child. <BR> This is exactly what happens when what has been going on here happens. <BR> flowerseed<BR>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by flowerseed:<BR>[B]whatif,<BR> Chill if you have read gems post you would know she would never hurt this child. <P><BR> Uh? What are you talking about? When did I ever say gem would hurt the child, I replyed to a comment about the child finding out a prent didn't want it. i wasn't necessarily saying that to gem I was saying that in general.

whatif,<BR> Sorry I think I was just having a bad moment. <BR> with love flowerseed

whatif,<BR>I'm sorry if you missed my point as I wasn't clear enough.<BR>We have letters ow wrote H telling him she was going to make sure his son knew he wasn't a true dad and only a visiting dad which she won't allow. She is the one that is threatening that he knows dad didn't want him. That was in the beginning. He'd love the chance to spend time w/baby now and she said no.<P>What I also meant is that the poor baby will have no choice in knowing dad in a normal two parent family. We'd love nothing more than for her h to be a dad to him. Show him things and love him. I don't know what she's doing about her marriage or anything at this time.<P>I am happy for you and your children. God has worked it out for you. I pray our situation goes smooth but ow isn't about to let it happen that way.<P>love<BR>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Gem, just a little recount... she screwed up the lives of at least 8: her H, her 3 kids, the OC, you, your H, and your kid.<P>Yes, B.bb, I said "she" because as you read Gem's XOW got pregnant on purpose, then, rather than raise the boy with her H as dad (I kinda still hope for that Gem. Do you?), she uses OC as a pawn to continue manipulating misery for all. At NO POINT has Gem's XOW, the one with complete control by law over the baby, tried to be a decent mature human being to anyone as far as I can tell.<P>whatif, I agree that single women CAN be good mothers. But statistically the odds of so many things ARE better for kids with involved dads... (which my H cannot physically be). I like to go best odds. And even after 3 years I am NOT glad our XOW kept OC no matter how devoted a mom she is. I would still prefer adoption or having custody.

Hi Everyone,<P>Big difference between a single mom intent on raising<BR>her child as best she can and an Other Woman who keeps<BR>the child, demands payment and uses child in a twisted<BR>scheme to make herself look like the victim.<P>I havent seen anyone here trash us for being single moms,<BR>Whatif. Before I met my H, I was painfully aware of the<BR>shortcomings I put upon my son since raising him on my own.<BR>Days at the park were bittersweet...looking at all the<BR>happy families...dads with their babies. I wanted that<BR>for my son more than for myself.<P>I cannot imagine the pain of the oc finding out how he/she came to be...under such deceitful circumstances.<BR>I believe we all want what is best for the innocent people<BR>involved in this mess. Unfortunately we are not the ones<BR>who can make that decision...most of the time.<BR>

Whatif,<P>Please don't think I believe you did anything wrong in keeping your daughter and raising her. <P>I think fluke summed up what the important difference is:<P><I>Big difference between a single mom intent on raising<BR>her child as best she can and an Other Woman who keeps<BR>the child, demands payment and uses child in a twisted<BR>scheme to make herself look like the victim.</I><P>There is an extreme difference between the two. However, there are some single women who *intentionally* get pregnant as well, and use the court system as an ATM machine. There are other women who do the same thing, but unfortunately, this doesn't just affect a single man. It affects an entire family, which trickles down to the children of that marriage and so on and so on. When an other woman has a child, the problems don't just stop with us or even with our children. It continues, generation to generation. We have to explain to our children, our children will have to explain to their children and so on. <P>CoR

Hi,<P>I think it was me that made that comment. It was a blanket statement and I believe I said it in rage to Bonniebb who said it was irresponsible to give a child for adoption.<P>My parents were married and tried to have me. My dad was big loser and cheated, stole, did drugs, was an alcoholic, etc. My mom was like a single mom from day one. Never got child support or any help from my dad. I do have some issues, but I have the best mom in the world and am so very lucky.<P>I think it is best in most cases to give children up for adoption if you are unmarried. If you are able to support the child, your main goal in life is not partying, you have some help from friends or family members and things like that, life for a child with a single parent can be great. <P>I am a little jaded though. I have many friends that had kids out of wedlock (some even while married) and they should not be parents. I wish CFS could pick up the children and erase or diminish the damage done. As a matter of fact, I personally know a woman that kept having children to get raises from Welfare. Since the knew guidelines happened, she has stopped on her 4th child. I get so mad at things like that. Women that do that should be thrown in jail until they get their uterus removed and their chance for reproduction is zero.<P>I am sorry if my words caused you pain. My mom was a single parent and she did an excellent job. I do wish she would have found someone to help her out though. She had no support from family and had it very, very rough when we were young. I think if I ever broke from my h, I would maybe choose to be a single parent. I would make sure I had plenty of support and chose good sperm though. <P>I am sure your child is happy about your choice and proud that you are their mother.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>. At NO POINT has Gem's XOW, the one with complete control by law over the baby, tried to be a decent mature human being to anyone as far as I can tell.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's right Jenny she hasn't been a mature person at all. She's back from Fla. as of last Wed. and we still haven't heard from her attorney about anything.<P>Sometimes I wish for the BABY's sake her H raises him along w/the 3 other children. I don't know if she's going to divorce her h or not. If she doesn't she'll be moving to Fla. She has THREATENED to move to prevent us from seeing the baby. I am just waiting to see what she does next.<P>BTW your head count was good Jenny but you can add my parents and in-laws to the list along w/ow Mom and MIL. Then there's all the siblings on all sides and their kids!! WHEW!!!<P>love<BR>Debi<BR><P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

whatif?,<P>I agree with everyone here. You did not act as most of the OW do when you decided to raise your child alone. You were a wonderful mother who deserves that title! I am one of the ones who HAS given a child up for adoption, but did so because I was too young to give her what she would need to be a happy child. I think that if you can raise a child, in a happy and loving environment as a single parent, then that is what is best for the child. I do still believe that if the OW is going to continue to harrass the married couple, and use the baby/child as her pawn, then adoption is the best for the child. Just like you said, using a child as a pawn for your own gain is one of the worst things a person could do.<P>Tigger

whatif,<BR>from Never's post (thought I'd bring it back over here), I DID think you meant a child given up for adoption is not loved but now I see that isn't what you meant. Sorry for the mixup. I am happy for you that your personal situation has worked out well.<BR>----------------------------------------<P>I want to add info to what I said. Our XOW does NOT have a job, no college education, supports 3 kids w/ch-support from 2 different men (LOW income!), uses some of the worst schools, sleeps around, can be emotionally abusive (herself an abused child w/dysfunctional family), has a stepdad w/mental problems that might be a child molester... Does she love her kids? Yes! Do I think her family is twisted and dysfunctional? Yes! Do I think OC has a great future there? HHMMM. Could we get custody? No. XOW, my supposed friend, KNEW my H was a married man w/a military career on his way out of town. <P>Should she have found OC a better home at birth? What do you think? <p>[This message has been edited by Jenny (edited July 31, 2001).]