Everyone on this board has a different story, opinion, position, involvement, foregiveness, anger, resentment, love, hate, secrets, trust, embarrassment, shame, guilt, offense, defensive, accepting, rejecting, etc. <P>I feel the W's who have, or are having, another man's child, and their H's are raising the OC as their own, are blessed. I would think those marraiges would stand a better chance than a W, like myself, whose H has two OC with OW. <BR> <BR>The reason I feel this, is because if there is involvement with OC's, OW will always be involved. Whereas, a H wronged by his W, who accepts the OC, never, ever, have to deal with that OM again because OM does not even know about OC.<P>These thoughts just occurred to me. Any opinions? Comments?<P>ember

I agree for the same reason an alcoholic doesn't need to drink to survive, but a dieter needs to eat.<P>Catnip =^^=

This is why I--a former OW, now a wife--decided to post here to encourage wives who might be feeling guilty or offended by their husband's decision to focus on his marriage rather than be involved with OW/OC. Actually I advocate no contact because it is clearly making so many wives miserable having to constantly deal with difficult OW. BUT, my approach and my screen name totally offended people and it was a rocky start for me. You guys almost lost me forever.<P>I realize that this forum was created for hurting BSs whose husbands have made babies through affairs or whatever, and I knew I was taking a chance but I felt I needed to mention my grown OC who turned out okay being raised with NO CONTACT from MM & W. <P>But now I realize that all OW are not very easy to get rid of. Not all OW are like I was--remorseful & willing to get on with a life of my own, with ONE court date and minimal CS...

BTDT,<P>I'm curious. When you first came online, if instead of us taking a defensive stance to your brashness, would you have responded better to us politely asking you not to condemn or judge women who are seeking visitation? Or choose to be involved with their husbands visitation? While at the same time posting the link that I pulled up under the thread titled "by far the most eloquint debate".<P>Would you have taken our suggestion and request to heart and perhaps more quickly realized the enviornment here at this forum?<P>Just wondering how we can avoid such disruption next time.<P>Z.<P>------------------<BR>Zebra Baby ...<P>Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

<BR>ember,<P>You're presenting a false dichotomy. In some states, the OM can unilaterally sue to establish paternity, which means that he's in the picture just as OWs are.<P>As for men who accept their W's OC, I have to wonder how much of such a decision is due to financial duress. Imagine a man who already has two children with his W. She gets pregnant by an OM. Sure, the H can divorce - but he'll pay extortionary CS to her anyway. The marginal increase in CS is usually so small that he has little choice but to stay. The way the law works, the first child is where the real CS money changes hands.<P>Bystander

Bystander, yes, an OM could go to court, but he can't if the MM has agreed with his W to bring up OC as his. Unless OM even knows of OC's existance. Another alternative would be to put OC up for adoption, OM might still have no knowlege of OC. Or, if financially strapped, OM could be forced for DNA testing, for CS. So I still believe there is more leeway in this circumstance. When it is an unknowing W , who finds out about OC, and OW, what choices are there for W? They are strapped for CS, unless OW signs off. Most single OW with OC want the CS, no matter what. ember

Hi Ember, I hope you don't mind but I'm going to take time to answer Zebrababy's questions here...<P>Zebrababy,<BR>To answer your questions. People (like me) sometimes don't take the time to go way back to the beginning of a forum to find out why it was created and for whom. Perhaps if I had read the purpose of this forum and why catnip requested it, I would have just kept myself on GQII. <P>Quite honestly, I felt I had something to offer, now being a wife and mom of a grownup OC who turned out okay with no contact--in case wives are feeling guilty for not being involved. Everyone experiences pain, anger, mourning, and unfairness in our lives, but at some point, we all have to decide when enough is enough and start taking steps toward wholeness and healing and attitude changes for the better, right? I mean, we can't erase the past and especially with an OC in the mix, it's impossible. <P>With all that being said, I believe that people make mistakes, God doesn't make mistakes and God has a destiny for every human being born on this planet. Therefore, OCs are not "mistakes" IMO, they are human beings with a purpose for being on earth. <P>All OW are not necessarily bad parents because they choose to keep and raise an OC instead of giving them up for adoption. That is not to judge anyone for giving up a child for adoption, just my take on the topic of adoption of OCs. OCs are conceived in lust and betrayal, but not necessarily born into lies. At least my child was not born into that sort of negativity. Sure, I knew there wouldn't be a dad and I knew what it was like to grow up without one because of a lot of divorce in my family, so life is not always picture perfect... What else is new?<P>Speaking for myself and my reasons for keeping my baby, my decision had nothing to do with selfishness, but just trying to do the right thing for me--you know what *I* could live with. It's an individual choice based on individual values. Some wives are involved with OW/OCs because it is right for them, I'm not condemning them because I advocate no contact. I can only speak on what feels right for me. If it doesn't apply, it doesn't apply and no one should feel judged by me or anyone especially if what is being said does not apply. <P>Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and people are also entitled to be wrong. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong but I don't see how it should affect anyone's decisions if they have already established deep convictions about those decisions. God gave all of us a right to choose what we can and cannot live with. <P>If I can live with a decision, I live with it and try to make the best of it. If something is wearing me out emotionally, causing me unnecessary pain and distress, making me miserable and hateful and angry, and killing me--I can't live with anything like that and I would definitely need to make a positive change for the better. Life is way too short! I'm not saying all life's decisions are easy, but at least there is less guilt and more peace of mind because we know we are doing what is right for us as individuals.

>>Speaking for myself and my reasons for keeping my baby, my decision had nothing to do with selfishness, but just trying to do the right thing for me--you know what *I* could live with. <<<P>That is to be considered selfish...but let me finish before another rampage begins. Our OW had serious fertility probs/ovarian cancer and this child was likely to be er only chance to have a child. Had the case been otherwise (according to her) she would've given OC up for adoption, but it being her only one... As I have told her, it was selfishness, but understandable. <P>My point? If you (as OW) are doing what is best for you how can you resent and object to MM doing what is best for him and his family? It has been bought up before on this forum how many options mothers have to avoid maternity, but fathers are forced from conception... <P>This is what we often face, OW's opinion that our H's 'should' be involved, that OC has the right... I've told our OW this:<P>You got pregnant, and while you regret the affair and the damage it caused, you don't wish to take it back b/c you have your daugter, I do understand that-how could anyone regret a child? But you made the choice to keep her, a selfish, but completely understandable one. I'd've done the same (though I'd've NEVER slept with a married man). But you made this decision for your daughters life, and can't demand that she have my H as her father, the option is simply not there. If she suffers, (which'd be worse in our opinion if H was involved w/ OC, I've rambled about this in threads before) If she suffers, it is b/c of your choice to keep her, not H's choice. You felt your life would be better by keeping your daughter, you made the choice for yourself and her.<P>This isn't really directed at you BTDT, just has been on mind and the word selfish kinda triggered it.<P>See, our OW has found God since Dday, etc. and in her newfound morality (and church support) feels H should be involved, that he's wrong not to, that we're wrong in not telling H's parents, etc.... We just don't see eye-to-eye, but I could go on for pages. At least she's not out for blood. State of CA is over the 2 months she was on aid, but that's another soapbox!!<P>

This board is certainly full of very opinionated, strong women.<P>BTDT, I do not think keeping your OC was selfish at all. An adopted child has no gaurentee on great parents either. Some adoptive parents are abusive, divorced, etc. I am no one to judge your choices or reasons. I enjoyed your post. I support some of your views, and respect the rest.<P>Dumbstruck and zebrababy, why are you so judgemental of others choices? Through life, we all make choices, some good, some bad. Our choices affect many people throughout our lives. I know I always tried to make the right choice, in a place of time. When I look back, they weren't all the best choices, but I thought they were at that time. <P>ember

There's no need to assume I was on such an offensive...<P>Keeping a child is a selfish decision, an UNDERSTANDABLY selfish one. We know that a family that can afford to adopt, etc, would be better. But what mother could do such a difficult thing. If I were in the position of single, pregnant, I would not be able to give the baby up for adoption. <P>There are many acts of selfishness we all commit daily, but that are understandable and in reality, expected. We don't give all our extra money to charity, we don't donate our organs whhile we are still living....selfish, yes, wrong, no. <P>My point was this: OW make the decision to keep OC, out of their own interests, they want the joy of motherhood...no blame there at all. What bugs me is the demand for a father for that child, what the OC deserves, what MM is 'supposed' to do, etc...<P>I am not judging the act of keeping OC, but it is done out of selfishness. OW wants that child, loves the child, etc. There is no fault in that type of selfishness. The fault I find is expecting all the fringe benefits to follow.<P>From what I've read BTDT hasn't taken that route at all, which is why I said my post wasn't even at her, just triggered by a word. <P> My little rant was more about OW's that not only allow themselves (some even through trickery) to get pregnant, then have the nerve to expect/demand a daddy as part of the deal.<P>No offense or judgements were meant.

Hi all,<BR>No offense taken, but just to clarify, it sounds like it is mainly a question of semantics. DumbStruck did acknowledge that a word (selfish) triggered her reaction.<P>To me, the definition of selfishness is when God is completely left out of the equation of our personal decisions. To me, being selfish is thinking of only what I want, what I think, and what I feel--instead of asking God what HIS will is for me. In a marriage and all relationships, I believe selfish is the opposite of love (not hate). <P>Life decisions are about personal choices that do not violate our consciences and everyone's convictions are different. From time to time we are all faced with difficult decisions that require much considerable thought.<P>

Another note, <P>BTDT, you made a decision to keep your child, by definition selfish, (it was what you wanted, having the child in your life). This level of selfishness caused no further harm to others, not all selfisness is bad after all-if one is too selfless always puting others before themselves, they inevitably suffer. <P>Yours ended there, from my understanding, you made no demands of money or time on the MM, which in many of our cases makes recovery more difficult. If all OW took this route, less harm would follow. It is when the OW continues their selfishness beyond this point and makes these demands that I have a problem with. <P>What our OW fails to see is she chose this for OC because she wanted to keep her (given a pending hysterectomy at age 21 I don't blame her) and excpects time and devotion from my H, which he doesn't even have any desire and I feel would do more harm than good (OC resenting our kids, etc). After varoius comments, my/our position is that she chose this for OC, and therefor can't hold H responsible or place him in judgement.<P>There is good selfishness (preservation of self needs/happiness w/o detriment to others) and bad selfishness. Giving up a child would be near impossible for most(good selfishness steps in, your heart would break w/o your child), but just because OW keeps OC doesn't give her the right to demand the 'whole family package' -this is what she wanted.

I guess I'm having trouble with that word 'selfish' too because it also triggers things inside of me that are contrary to biblical concepts that I embrace. I also believe that Harley's Plan A has everything to do with setting 'self' aside.<P>I have been accused of being selfish to also want to keep my twins who were born at 25 weeks and were on life support for 3 months. I don't believe it is selfish to want MY children that God has given regardless of the circumstances surrounding their births. I have a different view of motherhood, I guess.<P>Parenting is the most selfless and thankless job on the planet. I have been a single parent and I have been a married mom and sometimes they both feel exactly the SAME. There are rewards, but they are delayed.

Plan A wasn't designed to be indefinite, Dr. Harley himself said in varing words that such unreturned and extreme selflessness would destroy you!<P>As far as your twins, you wanted them to stay on this earth to be with you (one of those good selfishness). I hope they made it? I could never go thru something like that. <P>There are those Christians that differ in their 'Christianity' that would say you were being selfish in not leting them go to God.... I wonder had they been in your shoes? After all, I'm sure I am not the only one that used to say "If he ever cheated on me I'd show him the door!!" It's amazing how our opinions change once we're in the position. <P>My mother used to ask me this when something in church confused me: Do you honestly think a book written under the guidance of God cannot mean/say different things to different people? What you read/feel is His meaning for you, and that differs for every person. (love God, tire of churches...)<P>At any rate, I digress<BR>Selfish to want your children? possibly, YOU wanted them and did all you could to keep them---wrong? not in my book!! Selfishness is often an act of self-preservation, but it is only wrong it is to the detriment of another (IMO)<P>Parenting selfless, prehaps...but thankless, no. I was told earlier by my five-year-old that I make the best mac&cheese in the world (kraft) and got a thousand kisses from his sister!! no better thanks than that!!