Hi all,<P>I guess I am busy getting free Harley counseling over the radio.<P>I called the program today. (Dr. Bill Harley is on his wife's Christian radio show every Monday from 1:00 to 2:00 Central time zone.)<P>I asked him his advice about an OC and mentioned that we see very little in his materials about the difficulties of incorporating your spouse's child born of an affair into your marriage.<P>I am summerizing his advice and I hope that I get it correct without adding any of my own slant into it.<P>He says that most of his material has been written for the betrayed spouse primarily, and then with the WS spouse as a secondary audience. He really doesn't address issues that apply to the OP.<P>I explained that in general here on the board we have been finding that the XOW has been more of a problem than the BS spouse. I explained that our XOW gets very, very upset when a visitation is approaching and that she does not want to see me. Dr. Harley says that that is because I am the one who prevented and prevents her from having what she wants--a life with my husband. Nothing that we hadn't already figured out here on the board, huh?<P>He says that in counseling scores of couples in this situation he has almost never seen visitation work out. Either the WS and the XOP are still too attracted to each other and the affair reblossoms or the custodial parent will raise the child to despise the BS so that as the child grows older, the child actually becomes the problem in the marriage. He freely admits that his first priority is keeping the original marriage intact. He says that people are often very shocked when he says that the WS should not be part of the OC's life but that that is usually what he recommends.<P>I am nervous that I have not made even the tiniest error in representing his opinion.<P>We talked a bit about where Mr. Job and I are in our marriage right now (recovery), that I don't deserve to be spoken about disprespectfully by XOW, that every bit of energy that we put into working out visitation issues is time and energy that could be put into repairing the marriage.<P>I told him that at the beginning that I pushed Mr. Job into visitation and I regretted that. Joyce asked if we were going to reconsider our stand on visitation. I said that it was a topic that was open for discussion.<P>I think I gave him the wrong impression when I said that Mr. Job doesn't have very strong feelings toward OC. There wasn't time on the radio to clear any of that up. Mr. Job worries all the time that she is OK, that he is responsible for her being born into such difficult circumstances, that she is financially, emotionally and physically well cared for. He also worries about what visitation does to me and to our marriage.<P>I don't think that anything that got said is going to change our minds. We will work very hard together on trying to make the decision that is best for us and for everyone else involved. <P>I would feel such guilt about not seeing Precious and I know that the guilt would eat Mr. Job alive. Guilt is the emotion that he does best. He has so little self-esteem right now; I think he still hates himself for what he did. I don't hate him; I love him and forgive him. Getting him to forgive himself (or to accept God's forgiveness) is going to be the hardest part of all of this.<P>MJ

Mrs Job,<P>I feel at such a disadvantage here. I've been all over the internet the last four weeks (since D-Day) trying to find some insight into my particuluar situation.<P>My husband, as a result of his affair had another child. It is his fourth child (3rd living) with OW. He also has a 12 year old and a 10 1/2 year old. The OC is just about 14 months old. The hardest thing right now for me is when he goes to visit his children and she is there. He says it's over etc., but for the last 10 years I've had faith that nothing was going on between them. Then to find out for the last 2-3 years (I haven't asked exactly when) he's been having an affair with her. I have no way to know that this will never happen again. What if he's feeling "unloved" or "lonely" again?<P>I want all contact with her cut off. But that seems impossible in this situation. He has older children with her that he has been seeing on a regular baisis their whole lives. I don't want them here. I don't want my ds(only 3) to know about OC..that would be hard with the older two around talking about their sister. <P>This is a very difficult situation to discuss with him. What would make me happy is if he would truly understand my feelings on this matter and visit his children out of her presence. I think they should meet in a mutually agreed upon public place then he could spend his time with them and then meet again to return the children. I know how very much she wants a relationship with him. I don't know if he even understands how inappropriate having any relationship with her is. He talks about the bond they have because they had a child that died. I wonder how many more children they have to have to replace that hurt. I also wonder about the bond he should have had with his wife! <P>I can't find advise anywhere. I am feeling so lost. I would never deny him his children. I don't want them in my life though. I did not ask to be involved with an OC. I don't have any ill feelings toward her, I just don't want to ever see her or hear about her! He chose to make another child with OW and therefore to have two separate families! I don't want to be a part of their lives and I don't want them involved with my son's life.<P>I wish I knew how to convey these feeling with my husband. It weighs so heavy on my mind. I'm deeply hurt and most nights I can't sleep because I'm so angry over this whole mess!<P>I've rambled...sorry. I guess I have too many thoughts to sort out.<P>I guess the whole point of this is have you heard discussed anywhere this type of situation...and what was the advice?<P>Thanks!<BR>

Hi Ms. Job,<P>I have been thinking about this situation. Should the bio father be in the OC life. I wish I could remember the passage in the bible and I might even have the names wrong...but when Sara and her husband were too old to have children he had a child with a servant. When Sara had her child the mother and OC were sent away. Might be your answer. <P>I am sure you can give me verse line and even the names but it came as a thought to me.

Dear Why,<P>If my husband had an affair with his ex-wife during his visitation I would be unable to sit by and watch that visitation go on unsupervised. I would not be able to trust him again. That is exactly why I don't want my H and his XOW to be alone again.<P>May I ask why you don't want your husband's children from his first marriage to visit at your house? Was this your agreement with him when you married or has something changed as time has passed? I am not trying to be rude here just to understand things better. <P>If you didn't want any involvement with his children from a previous marriage why did you marry him? (Again, not trying to be judgemental here.) I too did not want the comlication of a man with children so I deliberately did not date men who had been previously married and had children. I think I may have dated one divorced man, but I am not sure. My dating years were back when dirt was young. I was also very young and men in my dating age range were highly unlikely to have been married and divorced.<P>What does your husband think of your lack of interest in his children? It seems like your refusal to allow your step children into the home you have created with your H has led to him visiting them at their mother's house and to their continued contact. <P>Have you read the material on this site about Marriage Building? Do you have the ability to call the Harleys and get counseling from them?<P>Deep in your heart what do you want to happen to your marriage. Are you ready for divorce? Can you walk away knowing that you have done your best? Are you willing to work to save your marriage even if that might mean making some very difficult changes in yourself as well as encouraging your husband to make changes as well? Is he receptive to counseling?<P>As far as your son learning about his half-brother that is almost certain to happen at some point in his life, probably not very far in the future. You probably cannont prevent nor control this; the only thing you can control is how he learns about it and from whom. It would be best coming from you. You might want to read Bradshaw's book on Family Secrets. In almost all cases they severley disturb the family and cause more pain than having dealt openly with the secret no matter how painful the secret is. People can deal with what they can know; they can't cope very well with the hidden stuff. <P>I wish you all the best,<BR>MJ

Mrs. Job,<P>Thanks for your reply. The entire situation is very complicated. First, H was never married to the OW (not that that really matters). Secondly, I did not mind that he had children.<P>They used to visit here, but I would be the only one to talk to them, care for them and discipline them. H just sat on the couch and watched t.v. He didn't even answer them when they spoke to him. I felt like I was being used to be their babysitter and to make him feel better for the visits. They are not very well behaved and actually are phyisically violent with each other. I don't want my son around that! They have an older sister who was removed from the home because the mom allowed her to hit the children. When my son was born they moved quite a distance from here and H just started visiting up there.<P>The reason I feel so strongly now is because of the OC. I truly do not want to see her. It's just very painful for me. I would have loved to have other children with H but it was decided that our son would be the only child. I feel very hurt that he had yet another with OW. <P>I very much love my H and want what we used to have. I just don't want to be reminded of what he did.<P>I will say that your advice and comments are something I will think about. It's only been 4 1/2 weeks for me. There's a possibility in time my feelings will change. There is still so very much I haven't discussed with H yet about the affair. I'm not ready to welcome his OC with open arms. It may never happen.<P>I also am not ready to let my 3 year old know yet. I know I won't be able to keep it a secret why daddy leaves every other Sunday for the day.<P>We've begun counseling and I hope that helps. <P>Thanks for your reply. I'm just not sure of so many things right now.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pahakissa1:<BR><B>Hi Ms. Job,<BR> I wish I could remember the passage in the bible and I might even have the names wrong...but when Sara and her husband were too old to have children he had a child with a servant. When Sara had her child the mother and OC were sent away. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ge:16:2: And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.<BR>Ge:16:3: And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.<BR>Ge:16:4: And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.<P>Ge:21:9: And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. <BR>Ge:21:10: Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.<BR>Ge:21:11: And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.<BR>Ge:21:12: And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.<BR>Ge:21:13: And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.<BR>Ge:21:14: And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

I usually do not take things from the bible to try and prove a point because i believe like statistics the bible can be made to prove any point. people can argue that with the Sarah situation God made sure that the OC got to be a huge part of his fathers life for a long time and was raised by his father before being sent out into the world. I also believe that the two children came together in the endso i guess that means we must all tell our children about the oc. Of course that is a ridiculous statement but that is my point.

Hi Paul,<P>Thank you for the information. I tried to find it in my bible but it does not have an index. <P>I use to study all the time and then I lost hope. Thank God I found Him again.<P>Whatif? <P>I was not using that as an instruction on how to act. I do not have an OC in my life but I do have half siblings on my dad's side. To be honest I have no idea how I would handle them coming up to me and telling me we are related. As far as I am concerned only the children that came from my Mom are related. But then again I have no idea what I really would do so I am not saying one way or the other what someone else should do. I just thought Ms Job would like this.

paul,<BR> I wasn't trying to "use" the bible to push an oc issue one way or another my point was that the bible CAN be used to push almost ANY point that a person wants. I am a Christian who is VERY involved in my church but I hate when people try to "prove" something with bible passages. It is probably sacreligious to say but the bible is full of contradictions. An eye for an eye vs turn the other cheek and others. I was just saying for every person who believes the sarah story is saying God wants us to cast out the oc another person says the bible is saying to allow the most impressionable years of oc's life to be spent with his father. I personally feel it is a decision that can only be made by each person not because of a story in the bible.