I'm not sure how I'll be taken here but I just need to get all of this off my chest. Here's my situation: I was dating a guy for over a year. When I met him he had been legally separated from his wife for about four months. About 3 months after becoming involved with him, I learned that one of the major reasons they were separated and filing for divorce was beause he had an affair and had a child by his OW. That was surprising to me but I didn't turn tail and run (although now in hindsight I should have) because I figured that everyone makes mistakes and all that happened before we even met. We live in different cities about an hour apart from each other so we don't get to see each other everyday. He had 2 children with his wife and an OC. He's 27, I'm 23 and a college student (I got started late). Anyway, about 2 weeks ago I found out that I was pregnant and told him about it. By the way, his divorce was final in February of this year. AFTER i told him I was pregnant, he tells me that he and his exwife have been talking and trying to work things out and that he was planning on moving back home. That REALLY blew my mind, but it didn't piss me off that much because I would have rather him get back with his wife than the OW. Had he said that he was trying to make thing work with the OW, I would have been extremely pissed. So, my thinking was that since I'm still in school, and really don't need a child or can afford a child right now, was that I not keep it. HE said that he didn't need any more children right now because he didn't know how to tell his xW that "it's happened AGAIN". I asked him how he felt about adoption and he wouldn't go for that. I asked him to help pay for a termination and he's hesitating about that. I don't get it. We both agree that neither one of us is in a position for a child (in his case another child) right now but he acts like he wants me to have it or he wants me to pay for the whole thing by myself. Today we talked and he's gone from "talking" about getting back together and "thinking" about moving back home to he's already moved most of his stuff back home. But he's trying to lay a guilt trip on me about how he's going to have to tell xW about all this. He said that it's hard to look at someone you care about everyday and not tell them something they need to know. I say, Well, if I terminate, then she wouldn't need to know because there would be no baby to tell her about and that she would have to be concerned about. If he told her, it would only be to ease his conscience. I can see why he had to tell her about OC because OW had that baby in hopes that he would HAVE to tell his W about the baby, they would split up, and she would have him all to herself. It ALMOST worked but not quite. I asked him if OW knew he was moving back home. He said, no, we don't go together so she don't need to know that. All she knows is that I'm moving. I was like HELLO! you have a CHILD with her and YOU chose to be a part of that child's life and introduce her to your other two kids and the rest of your family! She's only 2 so how are you just going to disappear from her life now and still live in the same city as she does?! How F***ed up are you? I don't know how to handle the situation. I don't want to be forced into having a baby because I can't afford a termination on my own and he's hesitating about it AND he won't consent to an adoption. Yet everytime I try to talk about it, he says he doesn't want to think about it. I told him not thinking about it won't make it go away...<B> and I'm tired of being sick all the damn time</B>. Does anyone else have any similar experiences like this? Can anyone tell me what is going on in his head?1 Why is he saying "Oh, well neither one of us needs a child" but is refusing to help me do anything about it?! There will come a point when it is too late for me to terminate. I don't want to hurt his xW because I think it's great that she is willing to give him a second chance and I think he is stupid for moving out in the first place instead of trying to work it out with her in the first place. I just found out during these last two weeks that he knew OW was pregnant waited a few months until after the baby was born and then moved out into his own apartment (did that w/o wife knowing until he was actually IN the apartment. She came home one day and he was GONE) and told W of OW and OC AFTER he moved out. He has a habit of with holding info like that until he thinks someone needs to know. I wish I had known all this before hand. This sucks! I don't want him, have no desire to be with him anymore and don't want to be "trapped" by him. He seemd like such a good guy for so long but he neglects to tell info that should be told until HE's ready to tell it. Sorry this vent is so long, I'm just frustrated and have no one else to talk to about it.

Just my thoughts on your situation. You should give this child up for adoption. I would look into private adoptions, as usually the adopting family will pay the doctor bills and sometimes your attorney fees as well. Also, when you talk to the attorney about giving this child up for adoption, ask about what you can do about OM. As far as what you will need to do to make sure that he doesn't block the adoption. I don't feel that you should terminate the pregnancy. I have put a child up for adoption myself, and know that it can be painful, but you need to do what is best for this child. It didn't ask to be put into this position, but the least you can do, since you don't want to have anything to do w/OM is tell him that if he doesn't want to help you with anything with this pregnancy/child, the least he could do is sign the adoption papers. <P>JMHO<P>Tigger

double,<BR>I agree with Tigger. You can't do anything do much about what this loser does (he's NOT a choice for a good future!!) but you are responsible for what happens to his conception. I hope you allow a stable married couple to adopt your baby. There are literally thousands of people who want to parent so badly but for various reasons cannot make one themselves. They have so much to offer and whoever you choose will bless you forever. You could continue your studies and your life. I bet this guy will sign the adoption papers... ask him if he'd rather pay ch-support for yet ANOTHER mistaken child. Good luck!

can I really give the baby up for adoption w/o him signing the papers? Would I get into any legal trouble if I just said I didn't know who the father was and signed adoption papers? See, I don't think he will sign them because from what I know, his family is big on children---wether you can afford them or not. They are not advocates of abortion or adoption and once a child comes, mistake or not, they treat the children as if it was a planned pregnancy and everyone is glad it's here. His brother has like 4 unplanned children or something like that. But then again, I obviously don't know him as well as I thought I did so I can't say what might happen.

double trouble:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>can I really give the baby up for adoption w/o him signing the papers?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You should probably check with a legal aid clinic concerning your state laws, but you may get into trouble by attempting to "ignore" his rights in this. It would be in his best interests to sign the adoption papers---if he doesn't, you might mention that he'll be on the line for child support for the next 18 years. Now, that might sound like "extortion", which is also illegal, but I'm sure that you can phrase it in such a way as to get him to agree to terminate his parental rights.<P>

You have been forced into a position where you must stand on your own two feet and make the decision ON YOUR OWN as to what you can or want to do. You can not trust this man for any support (emotional, financial or otherwise.) By his actions & words he is telling you that you are no longer important to him, or are a part of his life. So YOU must think about YOURSELF. If you feel you cannot think straight yourself right now you MUST find some one that you CAN trust to talk w/ @ this. It MUST be someone who knows you well & has already demonstrated their ability to look out for your best interest. I would suggest someone with more experience in life than you. Someone who can envision how the decision you make today might affect your future, or how you will FEEL in the future. (Are your parents an option? I woulnt love for my daughter to be pregnant, but I would certainly want to help her if she were as desperate as you.) You must know someone other than this guy who can help you financially if thats what you want (a loan maybe?) When you talk w/ this person listen to what they tell you. (Remember that your friend loves you more than this guy.) It will be hard, you will wanna play the "yea, but..." game with them. As an example, FRIEND: "I know you. An abortion would eventually bother your consicience, so adoption is the best answer." YOU: "yea, but..." and then you give your reason why it wont work. You MUST trust someone other than this guy. The faster he is out of your life the better. He is immature, and an emotional disaster. Dont play a power game w/ him to get him to do something for you. YOU must make choices for YOU. Face the fact that he is not going to be there for you. Since he is unwilling to share the responsibility of the pregnancy, you MUST take the responsibility YOURSELF. It isnt fair to you, I know. But as you get older you will learn that life rarely is fair. Hes given you his answer. Forget him & move on. Make a decision YOU can live with, and learn from your experience.<P>P.S. (and I mean this in the most respectful way) Forget @ what is going on between him & his wife. What he does or doesnt tell her is his choice. You cannot be a conscience for him. Let them handle their own problems, they are not your concern because he has made it clear to you where he wants to be. You have enough of your own stuff to worry about.

We have all said that the father needs to be given a voice in what to do about an unwanted child.<BR>If I were you I would tell him you would like to sit down with him and wife and discuss all options. That you are not willing to raise this child and adoption is your choice of action. If he refuses to consent to adoption then the child is his. He and his wife can raise it.<P>Jtigger

Dear DT,<P>My husband and I have been trying to adopt for years, so I know a fair bit about adoption.<P>I am <B>certain</B> that you cannot place the baby for adoption w/o the father's signature. What you could do (and really shouldn't) is say that you don't know who the father is and that way you could place the child for adoption. However, this is very dangerous and in the long run will only hurt the child and the adoptive parents. If the father has not signed off on the adoption he can come back years later and claim his parental rights. Your child could be taken from his or her parents and returned to this man. Not many people are willing to take that kind of risk and adopt a child w/o the father's signature.<P>I think other's suggestion of remind him that allowing the adoption of the child keeps him from having to pay child support for yet another child. If he keeps going at this rate he won't be able to even earn enough to pay his monthly support. 4 children by 3 different mothers! Yikes what was he thinking? <P>In contrast to what others have said, you can count on him for something. If you do not place your child for adoption, you can count on the courts forcing him to pay you some amount of child support. Almost no one gets out of that nowadays. If there is court ordered child support and he doesn't pay, they will take it automatically out of his pay check.<P>As for adoption, nowadays you as the birthmother would even get to help pick out the parents for your child. Many adoption agencies have books full of waiting parents who have written biographies of themselves (these are often called Dear BirthMother letters.) They tell you about themselves, why they want children, what kind of home they have, what interests they have and what they think they can offer a child.<P>Many adoptions nowadays are "open." What open means exactly changes from situation to situation, but at the very least you could expect to be able to send a letter a couple of times a year to the adoption agency and they would forward it on to the couple who adopt your child. You can expect them to write once or twice a year and send photos of the child and updates. That is a barely open adoption, usually called a "semi-open" adoption.<P>Some adoptions are so open that birthmoms and adoptive parents meet regularly, and the child knows all about his or her birthmom and may even see her on occasion. There can be frequent phone calls, visits, etc. It all depends on what the birthmom and the adoptive parents negotiate. While an open adoption might suit you and ease some of your anxiety remember that it is really for the child's benefit, not the benefit of the adults invovled. <P>It is true that potential adoptive parents will pay not only medical expenses, but maternity clothes, and living expenses. There are very strict laws about what can and can't be paid for and all of this must be worked out through an adoption attorney or through an adoption agency.<P>Most agencies will provide some form of counseling for you as you make your decision and many of them will help mediate with the bio-father to help him with his decision in all of this. <P>There are many, many loving families out there who would love to adopt your baby. Begin by searching on the Internet for adoption agencies and you can contact them and see what services they offer. Go slowly. Some of them will be so excited to find a young woman who wants to make an adoption plan rather than chosing abortion that they will want to move you quickly through the decision-making process. Remember, they have a long list of baby hungry parents asking when they will have a baby. Go slowly, think this through, decide what is best for this baby *and* for yourself. Don't allow anyone to push you into a decision. You are not responsible for making a childless couple happy. You are responsible to this child and to yourself.<P>I wish you all the best. You sound like a very courageous young woman. Some couple will be very lucky if you choose them to raise your baby. Is it OK if we pray for you and your baby?<P>Mrs. Job<p>[This message has been edited by Mrs. Job (edited August 28, 2001).]

One more thought on this subject. You seem to be very concerned about OM signing the papers for adoption. Well, why not tell him that since he is concerned about telling his xW about yet another unplanned pregnancy that he has caused, he can keep it quiet, and just sign the papers and "be off the hook" so to speak. I have also stated that you can speak to an attorney about this situation, and get some advice as to what you should do.<P>Tigger

The really tough thing from a legal standpoint is that double trouble can terminate the pregnancy on her own. But the OM cannot terminate his parental rights UNTIL after the child is born. Even if he agrees today, and would sign something that said he was on-board with the adoption---it's not valid.<P>DT: I would encourage you to talk to the OM about adoption, and see if he's willing to sign off after the child is born. If he hesitates---you'll have a tougher situation to deal with. I'm still betting that he'll be thrilled to be off the hook.

K,<P>You are right in that a woman can have an abortion and end parental responsibilities for *both* herself and the father.<P>Neither one of them can sign "relinquishment papers" that allow an adoption to take place until <B>after</B> the baby is born. Each parent has a right to make that decision after meeting the baby. That is primarily why Mr. Job and I are pursuing international adoption. Those children are completely and totally available for adoption. There is no way for a birth parent to change his or her mind after we have spent months planning and preparing to become parents. That is a heartbreak we couldn't face again after losing the children from Russia.<P>You know, however unlikely, there could be a reverse of my situation. The mother could decide to give birth to the child and decide that she does not want to raise the child. The birth father could say no to adoption and ask for (and probably get) the right to raise the child on his own. Birth mother could be responsible for child support payments. Just don't see this happening very often though.<P>Placing a child for adoption is quite rare nowadays. There is great societal pressure to either abort or raise the child no matter what the circumstances. Adoption is no long portrayed as the loving choice that it truly is.<P>MJ

I talked to this guy today at lunch time. He is STILL adamant about no adoption. He says thaat he wouldn't feel right about knowing he has a child in this world and not taking care of it himself. He already has 2 jobs, one of which is a detective, and he says that he may just have to get another job if I have the baby. I think he deep down wants me to terminate, he just doesn't want it on his conscience that he had anything to do with it. Why else would he be trying to lay the guilt trip on me that "his life is so messed up, it's going to be over with his xW when he tells her, and somebody might just find him with his brains blown out and a gun in his hand" yet says he doesn't have the extra money for it. $175 is NOT a lot to ask. He doesn't even pay child support for his OC because the OW didn't want to put a financial strain on him <B> and she believed that he would end up with her anyway </B> so all she asks from him is that he pay for half of OC's daycare, which is only $150/month for him. He moved in with his xW again before the end of the month, so now he doesn't have to pay the rent on his apartment for next month. I guss I will just have to use my GI BILL money to pay for that and skip buying a couple of the books I need for school. I despise him. ARGH!!!

Put the child up for adoption and lose this jerk!

Bonniebb:<P>Please don't use such words as "jerk"<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He says that he wouldn't feel right about knowing he has a child in this world and not taking care of it himself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So he rather you assume the sole responsibility for killing this child. <P>That puts him in the [censored] category, at least.<P>Double trouble: From a moral standpoint, if you can terminate your pregnancy, it puts you in an easier situation. My wife got pregnant by her OM---and she went to an abortion clinic, got signed in, and then just couldn't go through with it (that was the first good decision she had made in months, BTW... ). You don't have an easy out here---but I would suggest that you go to term with the baby. I think he'll either change his mind about the adoption in the end, or he'll blow his brains out---either situation seems to be a win-win for you.<P>Sorry to be so callous, but this guy really does take the cake for being a jerk... <P>D'oh, now I said it...

Dear Double,<P>Here are just a few of the thousands of couples out there who would love to adopt your child:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.lifetimeadoption.com/for_birtmothers/profiles.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.lifetimeadoption.com/for_birtmothers/profiles.html</A> <P>One thing you might do is tell ex-boyfriend that you are not going to get an abortion. Carry the child and give birth. You do not have to parent this child just because you gave birth to him or her. You could then tell ex-boyfriend that you are not going to raise this child that his choices are:<P>a) raise it himself <BR>b) sign adoption papers<P>I think that if he sees you moving along strongly toward adoption, he will follow especially since the consequences of raising this child would be so disasterous to his life.<P>As for being sick all the time, that will pass. It always does.<P>MJ

<BR>K,<P>Ironically, I'm not so sure the implicit threat of a child support order carries much weight here. Certainly the laws are extortionary for the first support order, but after that you can only squeeze so much money out of someone. With three mothers involved, double trouble's order would be last in line. My guess is that her support order wouldn't be much because the other mothers would get the lion's cut of the pie. So much for equal protection, but there's precious little that is constitutional in "family" courtrooms. Btw, even if one of the other mothers doesn't have an order in place, she could file at any time - and probably would if she learned her child's daycare was threatened.<P>Bystander

bystander,<BR>I think you are totally right. He is a cop and I don't think they make enough money for the job that they do. His second job is a butcher and I'm not sure how much they make but it's only part time anyway. I think his xOW IS going to hit him up for child support simply because of the way he went about moving out and not telling her he was getting back with his wife. It was ok for him not to pay CS when he moved out of the home got divorced and she thought they were going to be together. She was told that he was seeing his xW again and he denied it up and down to her and told me about what she was thinking and swore to me too that he was only going over there to see his kids but when she finds out that he's moved back home, and that their little girl won't be able to spend as much time with him, I'm pretty sure she will ask for child support. And she will probably not want his xW to have anything to do with their child either. Me personally, I'm not concerned about him going home. I think that's good for them. I'm more concerned about the child I'm carrying. If I have it, and he won't sign adoption papers (I'm telling you guys, he is <B>adamant</B> about not giving <B>his[b/] child up for adoption) I will have to raise a child practically by myself. And if I give him and his wife the child, I'm also concerned about how he/she will be treated by his W. I don't know her and I can't say that she would do anything to harm my child but I don't know her so I can't say that she WON'T harm it. She would have to be an absolute SAINT to treat my child just like one of her own. From "The Jerk's" reaction on how she would react, I can't expect that she would be so forgiving [b]again</B>.

<BR>double trouble,<P>Historically, the anti-male "family" courts would take so much CS that the father was impoverished, and even order the man to work 80 hours a week in some cases. Fortunately, that nonsense is over. States have "self-support reserves" that allow the person to at least have a poverty level of income, and furthermore, many states have outlawed requirements that someone work more than 44 (sometimes 48) hours a week. This is because you can't see the children if you're working all the time. <P>Anyhow, most states give the first mother a payola: "child support" guidelines are basically rigged to contain hidden alimony so that she gets extra money to spend on herself. The second mother probably gets enough to actually cover the child expenses, maybe not, but at least something. Being third in line, you won't get much because of his self-support reserve. You can only take so much, and my guess is that he's pretty close to being maxed out.<P>Something to think about: If you turn the child over to him, *you* will be nailed to the income shares cross and *he* will get the "first cut" of your paycheck - just as your income will take off from all that work in college. Figure 25% of your net income for 20 years, and he doesn't have to account for a nickel of it. If he spends the "child support" on beer, crack cocaine, or his other children instead of your child, there isn't anything you can do about it. Kinda makes you think the system should be reformed, eh?<P>Ironically, your situation shows you how powerless men usually are. He's calling the shots (unless you decide to abort).<P>Bystander

I called him tonight just to see where his head his now.Still no where near allowing an adoption. Time is running short for me personally to consider an abortion. I am only 9 weeks, but I feel that after 12 wks it shouldn't be done. That's just my opinion though. I know they do it up to 20 weeks in some places but I just can't imagine aborting in the 5th month. It's getting harder everyday to think about it because I'm starting to become attached. even though I KNOW it wouldn't be in the best interest of a child to be raised in this f***ed up situation. He said that he had planned on coming to see me this week but the alternator on his car messed up and he has to get that fixed tomorrow. (when did they start fixing those for <B>free</B>)? So then I say, well I have a friend that said they would go with me to the clinic and loan me the other half of the money to pay for it, but I told them I didn't know because I didn't know if I could pay them back and I would hate to lose a friend over money issues. He hurried up and piped up that he would give me his part of the money if my friend did that. If he can give me money to pay my friend back, and he can get his alternator fixed tomorrow, <B>what's been the problem with giving me the money in the first place???</B> It just reinforced my idea that he doesn't want it on his conscience that he helped pay for an abortion. It makes me so mad I could spit fire. I don't really have a friend that said that. I just wanted to see what his reaction would be. grrrrr. I wish there was a way to force him to give me the money. I'm starting to give in to the idea that I will just have to quit school and work my a$$ off to support a baby on my own and that's starting to depress me.

double,<BR>if this guy is trying to reconcile with his wife, why is he still seeing a girlfriend (you), and why isn't he telling her the truth? How many lies could YOU be getting? He sounds like SUCH bad news! <P>You have to live with whatever you decide, and so will his other women and other children... such pain for everyone. If you keep the child, you will never be really rid of him; there will always be this connection, the child-support, the father/visitation aspect. I recommend you talk this over with your college's psychologist or counselor asap (should be free if you have one), a trained crisis pregnancy counselor and your family if they are supportive types.<P>Prayers,<BR>J