Our visit with darling went through without too much interference from her mother/grandmother. Ow was actually on best behavior for a change and was unexpectedly pleasant to me, although the grandmother did lay into me at the end of the visit, yelling and screaming - typical behavior.<P>Darling did very well for us for the four-hour visit. she played happily with our sons and had a great time overall. So what's the problem? The problem is that when she is in the presence of the ow, she is a disrespectful and frankly unlikable child. It's the kind of rude, sneering, ill-mannered, ugly behaviors that I have only seen before working with delinquent teens. I have never seen anything like it before in somebody so young (4 years old). It is very disturbing to watch. We are talking some profound behavioral issues. She has not acted in that manner with us yet, but I'm guessing that it is because she hasn't relaxed enough to "be herself" when we have her. so far, when it's been "just us" Darling has been like any other lovable little girl. but when she is around her mother - My God, it's horrifying.<P>Watching this sort of thing, h and I both feel very intimidated at the prospect of dealing with this. I know that this kind of thing can be corrected with lots of loving discipline, but the way things look, we're never going to have her for much more than regular visitation. Even our new caseworker, who agrees that we are the more stable, appropriate choice for custody, admits that the chances are really low that the judge will give us primary custody - just because the courts are biased in favor of the natural mother. Unless ow screws up bigtime AGAIN, when the next hearing rolls around, custody of Darling will probably be returned to her. Courts are all in favor of reuniting the child and mother. that is just the way things work.<P>So I am in a bit of despair about it. will we actually ever have the chance to make a difference in this child's life? How are her behaviors going to affect our children? Also, my h is really upset because he is so put-off by the bad behaviors that he is having a very difficult time bonding with Darling. He says, "I know I am supposed to love her, but when I see that, I have a hard time even liking her." Now, I on the other hand, am bonding with her at a fairly good rate, but when I see her acting like a monster (that sounds like a cruel way to put it, I know, but the way she is sometimes is incredibly malevolent - you'd have to see it to believe it) I do ask myself what we're getting into. and we are aware that it's not Darling's fault that she acts like that, but it is hard to imagine dealing with such serious behavior problems. Especially when I think what the teen-age years may be like.<P>Now don't get me wrong, we're not thinking of backing out or giving up on her. but it seems very much like the odds are against us any way you look at it. right now, it appears that the "best-case scenario" is that we have visits every other weekend with a child who will probably act horribly towards us and our children. If we were able to attain primary custody, I think we could probably really make a tremendous difference in the child, but our chances of that happening really stink. the whole situation really stinks.<P>I guess I'm just looking for some moral support here. Or advice, if anybody has any.<BR>-cd

Hi CD,<P>I'm not a child psychiatrist (yet ), but some things just stuck out when I was reading your post so I'm passing them on to you to think about if you believe it may help. <P>Dealing with many abusive parents and abused children, one thing which always sticks in my mind is something I heard from a real child psychiatrist: A child wants attention. It doesn't matter if it's good attention or bad attention. Bad attention, to a child, is *still* attention. Since behavior (both good and bad) is learned through those adults involved in a child's life, a child learns how to get attention by how the parent reacts to the child when they do bad things and good things. <P>To put it into your situation, Little Darling learned early on that her mother most likely will not pay attention to her when she behaves well, plays quietly etc. As a matter of fact, she probably not given any positive feedback when she is behaving well. More than likely, when she is good, her mother ignores her. Instead, when she acts badly, she IS receiving attention from her mother even though to you and I it's bad attention. Attention, to children, is attention. <P>When she's around you and your husband, she is rewarded for good behavior and any bad behavior is dealt with swiftly and it's over - she received no further attention when she's acting badly. <P>I hope you see what I'm trying to say. Attenation is attention. To this child, the only way she receives attention from her mother is when she acts badly and is probably screamed at. <P>There are, of course, numerous problems including, as you said, constant bad behavior. HOwever, as she gets older, she will repeat the same behavior with others too. <P>About the visitation versus custody. I don't know if you've discussed this with your attorney or not, but have you thought of going above CYS' opinion and just file for custody through the courts? If so, let me know.<P>I know it's difficult, CD, for you, your husband, your entire family. Please.. remember to take care of yourself. <P>Take care,<BR>CoR

Cd,<P>I don't really have any advice I just wanted to say you have a really big heart. You seem to be a loving and caring person. I too think I would take custody of oc, if given the chance. I think my H and I can definitly raise her better than her mother could. My H exOW like yours had problems with losing custody of her other children. I think she only has custody of oc. I wouldn't take or try to get full custody of oc because I couldn't do that to any woman. But if given the chance like you (if she messed up) I would also jump at it. I hope everything works out.<P>Unsure

CD,<P>Could you possibly present a summary of this type of behavior to the social worker and at the appropriate time to the court. Make it very clear that it is only in the presence of Darling's mother. Try to point out the evidence of the broken / dysfunctional relationship in a calm, objective way.<P>State that you are interested in the best interest of Darling. Please your honor, if you will not grant primary custody of Darling to us, could you please make arrangements for Darling to get appropriate counseling, for Darling's mother to get appropriate classes and counseling with the aim of expanding and improving her parenting skills and possibly joint counseling of Darling and her mother to work out some of the twisted dynamics between them. All the while you are showing your concern for this child *and* displaying that you and Mr. Collins are by far the better parents for this child.<P>If you do not get primary custody and cannot correct these behaviors because you are not with Darling enough, I think that by setting <B>very</B> firm boundaries with Darling you should be able to prevent these behaviors from creeping into your time with her.<P>Also, why not bring a tape recorder (a tiny one) to the next visitation and secretly turn it on when Granny goes ballistic. You might want to check on the legality of that first as you don't want to get in trouble.<P>If you cannot tape in your state without explicit permission of all involved, you might just pull out your tape recorder and ask Gentle Granny, dispenser of all Grace and goodness, if you may tape the discussion you are having. Bet that *might* shut her up in an instant. Always always always remain the calm and controlled person.<P>Just my two rubles,<BR>MJ

CD,<P>I recall you mentioning this awful behaviour in one of the first posts after your first meeting with Darling. I am sorry that she continues this behaviour pattern, but, as CoR said, it is the way she has come to receive attention. Maybe if you continue as you have, spending time with her, and giving her tons of possitive attention, she will be just fine with you and your family for her visits. Also, the strict boundries are a great idea.<P>I am happy that the visit went off so well. Granny just has a corn cob stuck up her.... It's probably been there for a long time, and is just giving her trouble at this point! <P>Sorry, I just had to say something. I will pray that the Lord continues to be with you and your family and Darling during these visits. I will also pray for your peace of mind in the behaviour situation.<P>Love,<P>Tigger

CD,<BR>I like the idea of taping these episodes you watch!! Also, once you have more visitation time with Darling, why not get an independent professional to assess her state of mind, to present to the court later? Another idea is see if the court will base custody on psychological evaluations of the 2 families? This is how a friend's H got custody of his daughter.<P>Godbless and good luck!

And God forbid if you should spank the child when/if she rightfully ever deserved it! Can you imagine how that would get blown out of proportion!!! When my OC was small, I felt he was "too little to spank." I definitely created a little monster...<P>You are so right to think ahead to the teenage years because a little monster grows up to be a BIG MONSTER! I raised one myself! OC--is the one I speak of!!!<P>Until he was thoroughly aware that there were consequences to pay for bad behavior, he didn't get it. He was going down a terribly rebellious path. We even had a fist fight. I was stunned and paralyzed when OC threw the first blow. Always had strong opinions about this issue, that was, until I found myself in the situation. Different reaction than I expected which was to kill! Yeah, right?! I was so hurt I was shocked and couldn't move. After all I went through to give him as happy a life I could, considering everything...<P>The problem was him not accepting stepdad as his father. I know this situation is quite different from yours, however, please bear with me.<P>OC had the attitude of "you're not my dad, so don't tell me what to do..." I had to explain to him for the first time that stepdad was MORE of a father to him than his bio dad and how dare OC disrespect us like that when WE are the ones who clearly love and want him... Well, what I quickly learned was that I couldn't control my OC, but I controlled his stuff. That got his attention more than any other form of discipline we tried.<P>He was very strongwilled as I imagine darling is also. You can tell from early on... I had to resort to taking away everything for 3 days at a time, not more. He had already been put on indefinite restriction and that backfired--being strongwilled, he went the opposite way and decided what's the use of improving. Had a lot of problems--expelled from high school, arrested twice, on probation, ditching school, court dates up the butt, you name it. And I raised him with Christian beliefs, after I blew it of course, but nevertheless, had done my best when he was smaller! <P>About 4 or 5 times, I packed up all the stuff in his room--everything, all his clothes--except 2 outfits, all his toiletries from the bathroom, no TV, no toys, no games, nothing, and had to do this every time he broke our house rules which were kept posted in the kitchen. I became a broken record, saying "I can't control you, but I do control your stuff. Regardless, I can't control you, but I do control your stuff. If you want your stuff, if you enjoy your stuff, then obey the rules. If you run away, then when you come back after 3 days, you can have your stuff back."<P>Not saying that you will have to get this extreme, but if darling can understand that she has consequences to pay when visiting & on stepmom's turf, then she will likely respect you no matter what. But PLEASE don't wait to establish the boundaries after she is 14, like my mistake!!! We have literally been to hell and back and I'm happy to say that OC is in a very honorable state of mind these days. Loves God, honor student, and leader in jr.hi dept. at our church...

Hi Cd,<P>A close friend of mine is raising her H's teenage d from<BR>his first marriage. While the circumstances are different,<BR>the way you describe Darling's behavior reminded me of<BR>what my friend has been through.<P>This little girl went back and forth between her mother<BR>and father (neither of which spent quality time with her)<BR>The mother was in and out of rehab and the father was<BR>drinking all the time. When my friend married her H, she<BR>became the best thing to happen to that little girl.<BR>Unfortunately, alot of damage was already done.<BR>They didnt get full custody until she was 10 yrs old.<BR>While they try hard now, it is a battle. She is in <BR>a special emotionally disturbed class in a catholic school.<P>Still I know that this girl will see what her stepmom<BR>has sacrificed for her. One day she will realize how<BR>special she is...all because one person took the time<BR>to show her.<P>I hope that you and your H get FULL custody sooner than<BR>later. I know how daunting that seems, when courts favor<BR>women nearly all the time. But it can happen and that<BR>would be the best thing for you guys.<P>I think treating her NO different than your boys as far<BR>as the rules goes is the most constructive way to go.<BR>Most likely she craves the discipline, structure and<BR>routine that you follow with your boys.<P>Best of luck, fluke

You know it is very unfortunate that children are brought into the world under these horrible circumstances, however, they are here. <BR>Well we werent trying to get custody, however,whenever we would get her we would have to "de-programe" her, even now we still do. When we first began seeing her she was a crying baby at 18 months old. She would sit in corners, she wouldnt interact with other children, she was different from other children and I felt bad for her. But her mom fought with us every step of the way. The OW sometimes make it bad for child as well. At one point OW asked me to take on the responsibility of keeping OC full-time, no child support, because she was in school. I felt okay, because OC needed some stability and some sort of normal family life, in which I felt we could give her. Well of course it didnt happen. Because she really thought that the presence of her daughter would break us up and it didnt. Well now she is 3 1/2 soon to be 4 in 2 months. When she comes over, I have to hear over and over from her that (her mommies doesnt like me, that her daddy is a loser, that my trisha say dont kiss you), stuff like that bothers me. when I try so hard to be right. Not to mention that my husband's bond toward OC is minimal. He only agreed to start visitation because of me but because of the way OC was brought up by OW it is hard. My husband and I always thought that maybe we can make a difference in her life somehow but the future of that seems dismal. <P>Sometimes it is confusing for OC but when you have OW having babies to keep man and not because of the love they have for their on flesh and blood, OC will not be a lovely product to deal with in SOME cases. OC has cursed and put her middle finger up, she has called my 12 year old daughter a B***h. She has called her daddy a loser and she likes to sleep on the floor. I mean what is happening? I was going to buy her a bed for our house but she rather sleeps on the floor and we wonder if she sleeps on the floor at home. Its crazy. I am rambling I know but this is a quite delicate subject for me.

Consistency, consistency, consistency. I am a teacher of students with emotional disorders in an alternative setting. Children are wonderful manipulators. BUT...if darling knows what you expect under most circumstances, her behavior will be manageable. She will behave one way with you and another with OW. She will slip up, but you can bring her back in check. Consistency, consistency, consistency. It will not be easy, but you obviously care for her well-being both physically and emotionally. She will know this. <BR>Oh, and I love the idea of videotaping her interactions with OW and also when she is with your family. You could say that eventually, you would like her to be able to watch her mom while she is with you...or something cheesy like that. Could come in real handy later. Good luck and hang in there.