Quipper,

You have recently posted a few things on several boards that are so far beyond the TOS, that it becomes necessary to remind you of the TOS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this BB. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This includes over detailed descriptions of sex acts, use of blow dryers on the [another word for butt], and other posts you have had recently.

I have received several complaints on you; however, none of them were about content that was in violation of the TOS in the way that the complaints today were.

Please edit any past posts you have that are in violation of the TOS and keep your posts within the TOS in the future.

Thanks,
Nokomis

<small>[ November 19, 2003, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: Nokomis ]</small>

Dear Nokomis,

I will review my posts for overly descriptive descritptions of marital sex. I did not intend these remarks as profane, but I see your point, and I will try to refrane from profanity in the future.

If I miss somehing that you find profane, that I have overlooked, please use your power to delete that portion, with a notation Like "Deleted for graphic details," or some such reason.

I once had a paragraph deleted for Violent Content.

I sometimes get carried away with the flow of ideas, so I will try to keep in better check.

I do try to be considerate of the person posting, so if there are complaints that you wish to pass along, please let me know.

Quipper

Dear Nokomis,

The topic to which you patched in with Here, had already been deleted when I got there.

Since Child molesting is in the news, I think it reasonable to discuss the issue. How would you suggest that it be discussed?

Quipper

<small>[ November 21, 2003, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Nokomis ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Certaily some child molsetation is aggresive, uncaring. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What???? SOME is aggressive and uncaring"?

When is child molestation anything BUT.... AGGRESSIVE, UNCARING, SICK, DEMENTED, not to mention ILLEGAL!????

And I wasn't asked but I vote that we DON'T discuss it. At all .. despite how plastered it is in the news.

I feel it has no relevance to Marriage Building.

Of course nor do a lot of other O/T that we find on other threads, however, child molestation is not something I feel should be discussed on an open forum.

Here is the reality. There are child preditors that lurk on internet sites (you say not HERE .. on MB??!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> and because this forum is open, as well as anonymous, we should not risk that people who have a propensity toward this sort of thing, would actually get OFF on discussing these things.

It would sadden me greatly if this topic became a topic that was "acceptable" on MB.

Other than in passing or to expose a REAL situation that is, or was happening in a poster's life, I would not be in favour of a discussion about it.

And what would distress me even MORE was to find that their were posters on either "side" of the issue.

My gosh, what is this world coming to, that there would even BE a debate about whether there were varying degrees of child abuse.

DZZZ

Dear DZZZ,

My questions were about treatment. We wer discussing various sexual deviatins, voyerism, adultery, pororaphy addiction. What forms of treatment are effective or available for posters to condier encouraging for their problem spouses?

Quipper

My apologies to you Quipper if you meant your sentence to say:

Some treatment measures (my words added) for "child molestation are aggressive and uncaring"

However, that is not what I read. I would be much more careful how you craft your sentences when it comes to this stuff. This is after all public, anyone can read. Not everyone follows your every post, and would therefore, make the assumption that you were speaking of treatment.

Read your sentence again, and see if you can see were I would be offended.

Again, my apologies if I have misread you.

DZZZ

Thank you Nokomis. I was disturbed/concerned when I saw Quipper recommend to a woman that she view pornographic videos with her husband to help get him "in the mood." No offense, Quipper, but pornography has destroyed many marriages and is a very degrading thing.

Discussion of child molestation will be allowed as long as it is respectful and doesn't equate molestation of children to any sort of love whatsoever. It is not discussion of child molestation to which your fellow members, and indeed myself, took offense. It was equating it to some type of love, 'inappropriate', 'too much', or otherwise. Child molestation discussions will be closely monitered by any moderator on any board, I can assure you. I would highly suggest sticking to clinical, factual discussions of the topic.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Certaily some child molsetation is aggresive, uncaring. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the type of reference to which I am referring. The idea that any molestation of a child can be caring. This type of thing will be edited each and every time it comes to my attention.

Thanks,
Nokomis

<small>[ November 21, 2003, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: Nokomis ]</small>

Dear Love My Ex,

How can I be more considerate to your point of view? I disagree with you, but I am not interested in criticizing or offending you.

For people who need more self-discipline in their marriage for whatever reason, I suggest the Silva Method, Counseling or Hypno-therapy.

I commend your high ideals. What do you say to wives like the wife of Dean 790, who sneaks porn on the side, without POJA? What about the wives whose husbands use self-love to compenste for overly moralistic wives? I think that pporn saves and enhances more marriages than it loses, but what statistics do you have?

You are welcome to your opinion. I may change my opinion as I read more studies, or otherwise obtain more information. For now I believe that an errotic video is an option for couples with some types of problems to consider. But I post both options to consider, abstanance or increased fulfillment.

I am sometimes asked to stop posting to a thread by a thread starter, and I usually respect their wishes. Sometimes I get edited. Sometimes I get carried away with a flow of ideas, and carry the idea to where someone feels like reporting my post. There is a whistle at the bottom of every post.

I have asked posters who have put unnecesarily derrogatory remarks about me personally, in their post to change those remarks. I have never clicked on a whistle.

If there is something that you want me to change in a post, or in my posting style, I am willing to listen to your ideas.

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

<small>[ November 21, 2003, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

The proper action to take when one encounters a post one finds offensive is to report it to a moderator.

Quipper,

I have not followed your posts (only came in here yesterday) but read one somewhere where you recommended the woman and her husband view pornographic videos.

I haven't read anything inflammatory by you or harsh or disrespectful, but pornography is a very damaging thing and I found the advice to be advice that could greatly harm that woman and her marriage (if she took it)

You have not been inconsiderate of me nor have you criticized or offended me in any way. I was very disturbed/concerned though about that advice. I think maybe you should do some research on pornography's affects and how truly detrimental (and disgusting) it is.

I have seen you recommend the Silva Method but have no idea what that is. I am not so sure I want to know either!

I don't know who Dean 790 is and haven't an iota of a clue about his story, so I don't know what I'd say unless I read his story. But I would venture to say that pornography is probably harming his marriage. If he has to "sneak" it... well, sneaking anything can't be good, can it? We sneak things that we know would either offend or hurt someone or we know they are bad and we are ashamed to be "caught."

You said, "I think that pporn saves and enhances more marriages than it loses, but what statistics do you have?"

I think you have somehow been deceived by the porn industry! I highly doubt that there are stats on how many marriages pornograpy has "helped" but I have no qualms in saying that there are an abundance of stats and studies on the harm pornography has done (to men, to women, to marriages, to children).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For now I believe that an errotic video is an option for couples with some types of problems to consider. But I post both options to consider, abstanance or increased fulfillment.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Obviously, I do not control what you do or say; nor, do I desire to do so. Unless a moderator finds a problem with this advise, then you will be free to post it. However, I do hope that the people given it will not take it. And I do encourge you to study up on the business of pornography and its neg. influences.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have asked posters who have put unnecesarily derrogatory remarks about me personally, in their post to change those remarks.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have not seen these threads. Just can't read them all! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I haven't seen the remarks you've made that have been controversial, offensive, etc. I only saw that one comment of advise re: pornography. I did not report it. I did not even post anything. I just said a prayer, "Lord, I pray this woman does not take that advice." I think you probably meant well in giving it to her with an honest belief that it will help her. Your motives were only to help, I'm sure. But viewing pornography won't help her marriage. I have actually never seen anyone give that advice to someone. I've never heard anyone say that pornography was a good thing (other than the makers and buyers of it).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If there is something that you want me to change in a post, or in my posting style, I am willing to listen to your ideas.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whatever others have said, or the moderator, you should just go by that. I haven't had a "personal" problem with you but this is the first I've ever interacted with you. I do think that you ought to study up on the affects of pornography and really think about it. I think you should not use it in your own life for a few months (at least!) and then see if your relationship with your wife actually improves.

I don't know you well enough to make many suggestions, but I do think that pornography is a very VERY detrimental, harmful, degrading, impure, perverse thing. Even people who aren't Chirstians or don't have high morals or ideals view pornography with disgust.

Dear Love My Ex. (Reader Caution: Contains explicit ideas)


The discussion that is the start of the controversy, <wife> , Raz Thread on Porn Problems

Dean 790 posted on that thread.

I respect your right to your opintion. you seem to have a strong grip on your opinion.

I feel confident that the number of Playboy type magazines and errotic videos sold is considerabely in excess of the divorce rate. Perhaps porn use is reported in a large number of divorces. Does this mean errotic images caused the diovrces? Is it possible that teh use of errotic images was an indication of a problem, and aresult of the other marital problems that resulted in teh porn use? Is it possibel that many of hte marriage that end in divorce involve individuals who have low social skills, inadequate develpment of ehtics and low self discipline? That these people are more prone to divorce, and porn use is simply an indicaton of their persnonal problems?

You say you are not sure you want to know about the Silva Method. It helps develop self-discipline. Counseleing and hypnotherapy are other options for increasing self-discipline. It is true that pporn use can be habituating, and can be used to create states of intoxication. So, for the relatively small percentage of individuals who actually have problems with porn, I recommend tratment. This is the Silva Home Page: Silva Method Home Page

For marital couples with problems of straying or sexual deviancy, in addtion to increasing self-discipline I suggest spicing up the marital bedroom, to create an ovcerflowing marital bedroom. I personally have massage instruction videos that I bought off the internet. What I think is irresponsible, is to tell a young wife that she should not use porn to spice up her bedroom, when there is a chance that spicing up the bedroom would improve, or maybe save the marriage. Infidelity occurs frequently. I would prefer that you pray for wives to find effective ways to spice up their bedrooms.

My wife often likes to keep her top on, and just let me pull it up. That limits my images. There are degrees of satiation in the male climax. The more visual images, the better the satiation.

Blessings,

Quipper,
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 kids, still struggling

<small>[ November 22, 2003, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does this mean errotic images caused the diovrces?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If a man has to look at pornorgraphy to get "turned on" to his wife, the problem goes beyond the pornography. If a man is addicted to pornography and his wife finds out, yah, I could see that marriage ending as a direct result of pornography. If a woman is offended by pornography (most are, except maybe those who participate in it... most of which are not married women) but her husband continues to view/use it, then the problem is not only the pornography but it is his disrespect for his wife.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it possible that the use of errotic images was an indication of a problem, and a result of the other marital problems that resulted in teh porn use?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I guess that is pretty much what I just said above. (I am reading as I reply).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it possibel that many of hte marriage that end in divorce involve individuals who have low social skills, inadequate develpment of ehtics and low self discipline? That these people are more prone to divorce, and porn use is simply an indicaton of their persnonal problems?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, it is possible that many marriages end in divorce for those reasons, but even people with great social skills, ethics, and disciple divorce. On the same hand, many of those people with good soc. skills, ethics, and discipline don't use pornography.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You say you are not sure you want to know about the Silva Method. It helps develop self-discipline. Counseleing and hypnotherapy are other options for increasing self-discipline.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I checked it out online. It is a mind control type thing. It is something I personally am not interested in for various reasons. Nor am I pro-Silva Method after reading about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is true that pporn use can be habituating, and can be used to create states of intoxication.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, for the relatively small percentage of individuals who actually have problems with porn, I recommend tratment.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have shared that you use pornography in your marriage and you have also recommend to other couples that they use porn to "help" their marriages, so I am assuming that when you say "problems with porn," you are referring to those who you believe ought to be open to it and the problem in not the pornography but is the person's aversion to it. Am I correct?

You use many techniques in your writing that are interesting. I am not sure if you are aware of it, but for instance,you say, "For the small percentage." It is not a small percentage of people who have problems with porn. It is a very large percentage. This technique is used to sway an uninformed audience to beleiving something to be true, even though you have given no evidence of it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I think is irresponsible, is to tell a young wife that she should not use porn to spice up her bedroom, when there is a chance that spicing up the bedroom would improve, or maybe save the marriage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ANY person who has to use pornography to spice up a marriage... well, there is a problem. The viewing of sexual acts of other people is not going to anything other than to titilate, stimulate, and arouse someone. HOWEVER, the source of the arousal is not the spouse. It is the lovers and images onscreen. What healthy spouse wants to know that their husband is desiring sex... because he viewed another couple having sex??

You and I would HIGHLY disagree here. I would say it is not only irresponsible, but also detrimental and harmful, to use any type of pornography in a person's life... whether single or married!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife often likes to keep her top on, and just let me pull it up. That limits my images. There are degrees of satiation in the male climax. The more visual images, the better the satiation.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is more detail than I'd really like to know, but I do wonder if your wife is inhibited with you because of your pornography use. How does she feel about it? Have you asked her? I can only imagine what she must feel with knowing that her husband has to look at beautiful naked women in order to want to have sex with her??

My husband desired me sexually even when I was fully clothed! It had NOTHING to do with him getting a glimpse of flesh and everything to do with our relationship and love for each other. (this was before divorce... divorce had nothing to do with sex, etc... but for other circumstances that were outside and caused strain/stress).

Why are you not aroused simply by your wife alone?? Just by who she is and your love for her? In my opinion, pornography is like your mistress. It is almost the same as an affair although it lacks the emotional bond, which makes it almost worse because it is pure and simple lust. Your wife can't compete with your mistress of pornography. If she knows that she can't arouse you physically... well, I can only imagine how she must feel inside.

I personally believe that pornography is probably harming your marriage but you can't see it. I do not want to presume, but if your wife doesn't feel comfortable being unclothed with you, her very own husband, then there is a problem.

If my husband viewed pornography, I would have been so utterly disgusted and would have lost so much respect for him. I would have felt used. Like I was just a sex object. Maybe your wife feels this way also? Have you asked her?

I honestly have never "met" anyone who views pornography as you do, but I truly hope that you will someday see that you have been deceived. Sex is something that should be private and intimate. There is nothing private or intimate about pornography. But our world is saturated with it and it is like no big deal. And esp. once you open yourself to it, you become desensitized. And you begin to see it as a good thing.

It is NOT a good thing and never will be. It is perverse, degrading, and often illegal (using underaged children). It is a money-making business, pure and simple. It destroys men, women, children, and marriages. It is addictive because the more you see, the more you want to see. You become desensitized and soon, the images are not enough. You want more images and more illicit ones.

Can you not see this?

Quipper, I will never pray for anyone to use porn to help their marriage. But I will pray that you and your wife have a relationship in which you do not need pornography in order to be intimate. I will also pray that you will be able to see that the pornography industry has deceived you and that you cannot see right from wrong and good from bad as a result.

And I say this as kindly as possible because I know there are many men and also women who are also caught up in pornography and what they believe is good for them, is actually destroying not only them, but also their marriages and families.

I read the thread you referred to and feel almost sick to my stomach by what I read (your beliefs re: pornography).

You said, "I hope you do better than my wife. I often get rejected in removing my wife's top in the marital bedroom. Sometimes with success, I aks my wife to pretend that I stopped by the topless bar after work, and that my wife is my topless waitress."

Quipper, don't you think that it's very likely your wife rejects you sexually because she knows you are into pornography????? Don't you wonder if the pornography is actually hurting your marriage??? You see it as helping but is it? The only thing it seems to be helping is YOU... but not really. It is only helping you specifically to have an erection. I do not see how it is helping your wife. When you are viewing the porn, are you gazing at your wife? Do you tell her how beautiful she is and how much you love her? Are you admiring her? No.... you are watching other women and you are conveying to your wife that she is not sufficient for you. That you literally "need" to watch other people have sex in order for you to have sex with your wife.

I am not sure I should continue discussing this. I am not sure you can see any of this or that you want to, and honestly, this is a very vile subject. I truly feel for your wife, although I also think she is foolish for agreeing to use pornography. But I also wonder how you react when she says no, she doesn't want to.

On here, you say that people who don't want to have hang-ups. So I imagine your wife probably gets told the same thing maybe??


You are entitled to your opinions obviously, and it's your marriage. But I truly believe that you can't see the harm pornography is doing to your wife and to you and to your marriage.

Dear Love My ex,

Thank you for your effort in your reply. I will start a new thread, entitled with Love My Ex. to discuss my realtionship with my wife. This was a thread to discuss improving my posts, with the help of the moderator.

Quipper

Quipper,

I have read enough. I have suspended your posting privileges based on the email I have received from other forum members and based on your posts. If you have questions about this, please feel free to e-mail me at tempest@mhcable.com