I'm getting confused here and a lot more nervous. i am not technically an OW as the guy I am pregnant by was legally separted for 10 months when we met and got divorced 2 months later. I posted my situation here before because I had the problem of not really wanting the child (just wasn't ready to be a mom yet) and wanting to give this baby up for adoption but he flat out refused. I was told then that there are plenty of wives that would have loved to adopt the OC. Like I said, I am NOT an OW ( the reason this guy was divorced in the first place is because he had an affair and the OW got pregnant and had their baby) but I'm afraid that his exwife (they just recently got back together and he moved back into their home) will treat my child as some of the posters here refer to their husband's OC. I already know that his wife strongly dislikes the OC ( partly because she is a biracial child and she really resents that he cheated on her with someone outside of our race, but mostly because she is a constant reminder of his infidelity). Even though my child is of the same race, i don't think that will make much of a difference when it comes to acceptance. Also, I feel like she might look at me as an OW even though I didn't know he was trying to get back with his exwife when we conceived this baby. He keeps saying he dreads having to tell her that "this happened again" but he acts as if he wants to be a part of the baby's life. I can't remember who, but someone here told me that if he acknowledges paternity, I can't stop him from being involved with the baby if he so chooses. I have no ill feeling towards his wife, I wish them the best of luck and I'm GLAD they got back together...I'd rather him be with his wife than the OW. The OW KNEW he was still married and living at home and got pregnant on purpose to MAKE him tell his wife about the affair, with the hopes that he would leave her, or she would kick him out and he would be with her...and her plan almost worked. I despise that. He drove an hour and a half to see me on Wednesday, supposedly to talk about the baby and plans and stuff, but he tried to have sex with me and I read him like a book. W isn't having sex with him because she doesn't trust that he's stopped seeing OW completely while he's out visiting the OC at their house. OW isn't having sex with him because she's pissed that he went back to wife when he swore up and down that he only was going over there to see his kids. He figured I was an easy mark because I've been the lesser of 3 evils. Not gonna happen. I'm just wondering how can I possibly let him be apart of this baby's life if his wife is like some of those who go around calling children "[censored]" and poisons the minds of his or her older siblings into thinking there something "wrong" with my child?

double trouble,<BR> Give the baby up for adoption then you will do the most loving thing you can for this child. Please dont think anyone here that wants nothing to do with oc would ever do anything to hurt them. This is a place to vent thats why you read the things you are reffering to.It is a place to get the hurt out. That is alot of what these things you are referring to is all about .This for me has been one of the worst and most painful things I have ever had to deal with in my life. <BR> You also need to think about your part in this even if the man wasnt married which he still was. Why would you allow yourself to concieve from a man that has did what this man has done? Why would you even think that this would be a good upbringing for any child? flowerseed<P><p>[This message has been edited by flowerseed (edited September 23, 2001).]

flowerseed,<BR>in the beginning I wanted nothing more than to give this baby up for adoption...ok, well, I DID want to abort, but that option is way out of the window now. But again, I was advised here that I can not legally give this baby up for adoption without the father's consent and there is absolutely no way he will give consent. I begged and pleaded and even CRIED and he just flat out refuses to even consider adoption. Because of that attitude, I've just had to start accepting that this baby was my "mistake" as well and I have to face up to responsibility for it. It's hst so strange---I feel like I'm in an opposite world. Usually, it's men complaining that they had no say so in the matter if a woman chooses to have a baby. Here I am, couldn't afford an abortion on my own and the further along I got the more expensive it was, I can't give the baby up for adoption without his consent, so I'm stuck having a baby. But everyday the bond is growing and I'm feeling more attached than I ever thought I could be. I already love this child enough to know that I want let anyone hurt him or her physically or emotionally as long as there is breath in my body and activity in my limbs to stop it. I won't have my child staying with its father, and his ex-wife put on a front that she is ok with the baby but secretly hates it and treats it as substandard compared to her two because they were born in the marriage and mine was not. Oh no. I find a little solace in the fact that I KNOW he does not turn his back on his own flesh and blood. That is the main issue he and ex-wife are still having; she wants him to stop seeing his other daughter and he refuses to do so. And he won't turn his back on this child either....that's just how he is. He maybe a rotten person relationship wise but he is an OUTSTANDING police officer/detective, he's a positive role model for kids in his community, and despite the circumstances, he's been a great father to all three of his kids. He's never missed a birthday, or Christmas or even Easter with any of them. I don’t like the way he handles relationships, but who am I to try to change him?<BR>

dt, if you are serious about wanting to put your child up for adoption, speak to an adoption attorney. Most times the initial consultation is free. Good luck.<P>ember

DT,<P>Im not sure what kind of advice you got about the adoption thing, but you dont need his permission. Even if you are in one of those states (I dont think there are many if at all that do that with a non-marriage) you dont have to know who he is. You go in and talk to the agency and tell them you dont know who the daddy is. Maybe embarrassing, but it is better for your child. It sounds as if you already know that, but are trying to talk yourself out of it. Keep child in mind.<P>Maybe you do not see yourself as the "OW", but you said he was seperated. Not divorced. Dont think for one moment the wife wont see you that way. It will be no easier for you or this child. <P>I know you are getting attatched to this baby. What person wouldnt. Adoption isnt about taking puppy to the pound where you might cry when you give it up, but will be over it in a week. It will be difficult. You are human and this is a child growing inside you. It all boils down for the kind of life this chlld will have. Of course noone is promised a rose garden but we do the best we can. There are quite a few who have given children up for adoption on this forum. Maybe you can direct a post at them and they can tell you how they handled it.<P>I pray you will do God's will.<P>Love<BR>broken_wings<p>[This message has been edited by broken_wings (edited September 23, 2001).]

double troble, (he's a positive role model for kids in his community) I sure wouldnt want somebody with this kind of a background trying to be a positve role model for any of my kids. He cant stop you from giving your child up for adoption. He could probly if he found out get the child only after he proved it was his. Which if his wife wants no oc in her life how is he going to do this. I think if I was you I would be letting her know what her h is up to. I would have wanted to know. If you think calling an oc a [censored] means that someone would hurt that child you are very wrong. You need to really think long and hard as to how you will deal with name calling it will most likly happen but it will be from the childs peers not someones wife. You say you think he will be involved in your childs life but you really dont know do you. <BR> flowerseed

i have called my dh C a [censored] and a few other choice words, HOWEVER, i know i could NEVER hurt or mistreat a child.

Unfortunately or fortunately, there are consequences to sin. You and him are responsible for your own weaknesses. From what you wrote about him, I would bet he is evil in the worst sense of the word. I agree with broken wings - I hope that you seek God's will for this child. These days I can probably give better advice than I am willing to take. I just think that all these illegitimate children involved are going to suffer tremendously because of some irresponsible, selfish, arrogant adults. These children deserve better. <BR> <BR>I am so thankful and blessed to have been born of a real mom and dad, who were married, and are still. I have two real brothers... and I guess it isn't until now that i realize how lucky i am. These illegitimate kids deserve the same. Seek God's answers, please. He won't steer you wrong. God Bless<p>[This message has been edited by mnca6713julia3 (edited September 24, 2001).]

Just wanted to add to Lemonpies response... She's right, we may call these children [censored] but we are only trying to cope with the pain. Try putting yourself in our shoes for once. You (the OW, and you are because he was married, there is no justifying that, not even if the divorce was going to be final) are carrying OUR child. The child that is growing inside of you belongs to his wife and should be growing inside her, and same with the other child. <P>Listen, I know there has to be some degree of pain for you too, just like all of us, but the pain that we, as wives, are experiencing is immeasurable. I spoke to OW on the phone and she has the nerve to tell me that she is dealing with the most pain because she is the one experiencing morning sickness and being sick all the time, and I just listened but I wanted to say, "tough sh@$" that is what you get, there are consequences to sin". If that child was growing inside me, I would thank God for morning sickness in just knowing that God's gift is inside me.<P>Anyway, put God first, whether you want him there or not, he has the last word always.

I'm really not trying to start a flame war or anything and forgive me if I sound naiive, but I really, honestly don't understand how you can say we call the OC [censored] and other choice names, but it's just to deal with our pain, but we would NEVER hurt them. HELLO? Name calling DOES hurt. You can't say that you are harboring all those resentful feelings and the child would never pick up on that. Children will be children but you expect adults to be the bigger people and not stoop to calling a child hateful, harmful names when just like you, they had no say so in the matter. I am NOT the OW. They had been living apart well over a year before I met him. She was fine with the divorce and so was he. As for him being a role model to the kids in the community...how many of you REALLY know deep into the personal background and personal life of your child's neighborhood "Officer Friendly"? That what he was before he got promoted and a lot of kids look up to him. He doesn't go around telling everyone all about his personal life. As for doing God's will, hmmmm, by saying that the OW is carrying YOUR child that should be with you, are you saying that God made a mistake? That HE didn't know what He was doing when the OW gets pregnant? That He "slipped up" and made the wrong person pregnant. According to what I've been taught about God, He is omnipitant, omni benevelent, omniscient, and omnipresent. I think He knows what He is doing and unbeknownst to us, HE has a reason behind it and it's not our place to second guess who was suppose carry the baby. My child is no less REAL than any other child because I'm not married. It's going to need REAL diapers, REAL food, REAL shelter, and REAL love. I know plenty of children who were born out of wedlock...let's see, one is a captain in the Air Force ( she graduated from UNC-Chapel Hill in the top of her class), one is a Branch manager for Wachovia Banks, one is about to graduate from NC A&T and get commissioned as a 2nd Lt. in the Army, I could go on, but I think you get the point. These people are all very REAL and not less important because they came from single parent homes. I've read where some people say the OW will get what they deserve but i think that is vengeful thinking. If the world really worked that way, would that mean that the pain the you are going through is what YOU deserved for something you've done in your past? I don't think so. <P>I'm sorry if this post upsets any of you, but I find it upsetting for someone to think that calling a child a hateful name is not harmful, and even more upsetting for anyone to suggest that God made a mistake by making me pregnant and that my child will be substandard or not REAL because I'm not married. I think He knows what He is doing in ALL circumstances.

<BR>Adoption agencies are very hesitant to proceed in cases where the woman claims not to know the father. The reason is that the father doesn't lose his rights to sue for paternity, and very well can sue even after the adoption has taken place. Making matters even worse, in this particular case the father is well aware of the pregnancy and his child. Trying to dupe an adoption agency is very ill-advised because the father would know something was going on. <P>As I said earlier, this case is interesting because of the role reversal angle. lemonpie can't stop the man from suing to establish paternity, and once he's done that he can ram a visitation schedule right down her throat. Claims that she doesn't like his wife will be laughed at in court (sorry to be blunt, but its true). if lemonpie really wants to keep the man away from the child, her best bet is to give birth and *not* sue for "child support," because that's when the courts will establish a vistation schedule.<P>I don't really have an answer to her problem. She's by and large in the same boat as a lot of men who don't want to be a parent. She's lost her ability to choose.<P>Bystander

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by double trouble:<BR><B><BR>I'm sorry if this post upsets any of you, but I find it upsetting for someone to think that calling a child a hateful name is not harmful, and even more upsetting for anyone to suggest that God made a mistake by making me pregnant and that my child will be substandard or not REAL because I'm not married. I think He knows what He is doing in ALL circumstances.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>DT,<P>I am Mrs. Job. I am one of the women on this board who has ongoing visitation with OC. I love and care for this child. That doesn't mean that I don't still have ambivelent feelings about how she came into our lives. My feelings about her have come to change. I put aside the anger and resentment I felt toward her. I am a human being. I am capable of great and good change. I am always open to the possibility that the grace of God will work miracles in me. <P>In care and kindness I think that it is important to point out that you have some very confused theology going on here. God doesn't make women pregnant--policemen do (well in your case it was a policeman. In my case our exOW was made pregnant by an engineer--my husband). God has given us free will. We are free to make choices and we will live with the consequences of those choices, sometimes for the rest of our lives. Any other arrangement would rob us of the freedom to love God. Given your scenario we would all be puppets and our lives would be shams. <P>Your policeman chose to have a physical relationship with you and the child is the result of that relationship. (God <B>never</B> wills sinful things to happen, but He can and will make the best of them once they do.) Just because God didn't will this child into being doesn't mean that He does not have as much love for your child as for every other child. Your child is <B>just as real to him</B> (and you and all those who will love your child) as <B>any</B> other child born in the history of all humanity. Each one of us is precious to God no matter what our birth circumstances happen to be. He knows us all while we are still in the womb and we are so precious to him that He can count the hairs on our head before we are ever born.<P>Make no mistake. Our OC is the result of my husband's sin. Mr. Job, exOW, OC and I will live with the consequences of that sin for the rest of our lives. It doesn't mean that God can't turn bad into good and bring blessings out of the most difficult of circumstances. We live in a broken world and we suffer the consequences of our own sin and the sin of those around us. (There are 10s of thousands of people suffering the consequences right now of the sinful decision made by some freak extremists to hijack planes and drive them into buildings. God didn't will that. He never wills evil.)<P>AS FOR THE ADOPTION<P>I was the one (as a soon to be adoptive mom) who said that while you can place your child for adoption by claiming that you don't know the father, that most agencies/attorneys will not accept a child for adoption under those circumstances. It places the adoption at legal risk because the birthfather would have been wrongly stripped of his parental rights. It places the child's future in jeopardy. HOWEVER....don't take my word for it, I am not an attorney. If you would still consider adoption, try contacting a reputible adoption agency and seeing what they say. Or better still an adoption attorney.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.adoptionattorneys.org/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.adoptionattorneys.org/</A> <P>Also, please don't confuse the people on this board who are in the very beginning of this process and in enormous pain and those who are further along and have made a decision to love and care for the OC as best as they can. Those who are connected to OC are not the same women who are calling the children names. If you want to see that parental love can take the place of the hurt and fury of being betrayed just look to some of the men who post on this board. Many of them are raising children whom their wives conceived in an affair. As far as I know, every one of them wondered if they would be able to love this child as they should and I believe that all have done admirably and adore these children. My father raised me in an atmosphere of great love and I was conceived of my mother's affair.<P>I wish you shalom,<BR>Mrs. Job

BT,<P>I haven't posted to you before because I didn't know what to say. I don't beleive in abortion (my choice) but I secretly wished exOW had one. I don't consider you an OW. Just a young person who's in a bad situation with the wrong guy. I had my first child when I was 18. My H wanted to marry me before the baby was born but I choose not to. (My family flipped out because my H asked my father for my hand in marriage with out telling me) I didn't want to marry my H before my S was born because, I didn't want him to throw it in my face that he married me because I was pregnant. When my S was 1 my H and I married. I do not consider my child a [censored]. He was born out of wed lock. I do consider my H OC to be illegitimate. (because she was conceived while we were married and both parties were aware of that fact) I've never called her a [censored] though. I might be a hypocrite but that's how I feel. I agree with Bystander your in the same boat as a lot of men who didn't want to be a parent. You have to make a choice and decide what you want to do about your baby we can only advise you none of us can tell you what to do.<P><BR>Unsure<P>P.S. I like MJ is/was willing to get to know OC and eventually except her as a part of my family. exOW decided to make that impossible at this time but I do hope to get to know her in the future.<p>[This message has been edited by UNSure919400 (edited September 24, 2001).]

thank you Mrs. Job.<P>I guess I knew that God doesn't will evil or sin, I just didn't phrase my thoughts correctly. I just meant that I believe that everything in life has a reason for happening and that reason is that it's all according to God's big plan.<P>My problem with adoption now is like Bystander said: this man KNOWS I'm pregnant and WANTS to be a part of the child's life. There is no way I can walk into an adoption agency and say that I don't know who the father is without him finding out and causing all kinds of problems. I wish you guys could understand how he is. This guy has such high professional ethics it's truly amazing how it could be the same person. He is such a staight-laced police offer it is ridiculous. One of his older brothers had a problem with drugs. He saw his brother on the street while on duty and charged him with possession just like he would have done anyone else he had seen breaking the law. After that, he started finding his brother odd jobs to do around their parents' home while he was on duty so that situation wouldn't happen again. I know if he would take his own brother to jail he'd take me too if in fact trying to dupe an adoption agency is illegal. He'd probably head up the investigation himself.

Unsure,<BR>thank you. I can see your point about the OC being illegitimate because your husband was married when the child was conceived. This man and his ex-wife were divorced when this child was conceived...I just didn't know that he was trying to go back home at the time. I guess he chose to keep me in te dark in case his exwife told him no. He called last night and told me that everything wasn't all peachy keen at home and that he expected it to be that way for a while and that some nights he stays with his sister.<P><BR>At first I was all panicky ( is that a word?) about not being ready to be a parent but I'm not a teenager anymore (I'll be 24 in 9 days) and it's time to settle down some. I've never been a "party girl" and went out clubbing, I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't do drugs, I have my own place, my own car. I'm not going to request child support and I know being a single parent won't be easy, but I'm not the firt to be a single parent and I'm sure I won't be the last.

Dear Double Trouble,<P>You <B>are</B> right. All human life has value to God and should be equally valued by all of us.<P>If you choose to raise this child, I wish you all the best. I hope that those who love you will rally around you and be the best support system for you that they can. The life of a single mom is very, very hard. I will pray for you.<P>I am <B>not</B> saying that you should try and dupe an agency into believing that you don't know who the father is. I am saying that if you think that adoption is a possibility for you, that they will provide you with counseling and may be able to convince the child's father that it is in the child's best interest.<P>I can't tell you that I know what it would be like to place a child for adoption. I am infertile, have been all my life. I was born w/o a uterus. (It happens to be one of the very few organs that you can be born with and still live so it happens more than you might think.) I have heard from others (Tigger4 for example) that it is a very, very hard decision and that it is something that will stay with you for the rest of your life. I am saying that just because the child's father says that he is against adoption that doesn't mean that he may not change his mind.<P>You sound to me like a sensible young woman and that your baby will be OK either way. I am not as big on the two parent thing as some other people on this board because I have friends who are single moms and are doing a great job. It is not ideal, but neither is every two-parent family an ideal place to raise a child. I have friends who have adopted as single women and they are doing a great job. However, they were older, they had finished their education and established their careers. It is easier to raise a child alone at 35 than it is at 24. Just consider that the adoption door is not completely closed because PM (policman) says "no." He might change his mind. A good agency should provide lots of counseling for you to make a decision and will offer the same help to PM. <P>I wish you shalom,<BR>MJ<P>PS Of course you are bonding with this child that you are carrying. I think that most women do bond with their unborn child, even those who do decide on an adoption plan. Loving this child doesn't mean that you can't decide that others should raise him or her and in the adoption world nowadays, it doesn't mean that this child will disappear w/o a trace from you life. Ask and adoption agency about "open adoption."<P>PSS I wouldn't necessarily equate being a good police officer with being a moral person. PM has proven himself to be one, but not the other, right? Being a good police man doesn't seem to me to be anymore connected with being a good/moral person than being a good engineer/barber/trucker is the same as being a good/moral/straight person. One is a job and the other is what really counts--real life. <p>[This message has been edited by Mrs. Job (edited September 24, 2001).]

DT,<P>I just turned 29 last month. I've been married for 9 years. I have 3 children 2 S's 10 & 7 and 1 D 18 mths. I didn't club or anything until I was 22 so I too wasn't a party type person either. If you're ready to be a mother you can do it. ( It's not going to be easy and you need a support system, it's hard even when you have a mate 24 is still young) If you don't want your Ex involved in you or your child's life don't ask for CS. If he insists make him pay CS. It is his child and he should be responsible for it if he's going to insist that's he be apart of your lives. Again because he wasn't with his wife and they actually got divorced. (Because he cheated with another woman) I do not consider you a OW. <P>I have a question for you. Did you ever love this guy? You have no problem with him going back to his ex wife. Your only beef is with the exOW. That seems a little strange to me. Did you and the exOW have arguments or something? I know what college life is like my friends and I kept close contact. Was he just something to occupy your time? I only ask these questions because I'm trying to figure out why you seem to have no problem letting him go. And he's a jerk to try and sleep with you after moving back in with his wife it looks like he really hasn't changed. If he has changed he would wait until his wife was ready to have sex with him. I also think it's strange he wouldn't give you the money for an abortion but he doesn't want his wife to find out about your pregnancy. This guy has some strange principle and values.<P>I again hope everything works out for you.<P>Unsure<P>[This message has been edited by UNSure919400 (edited September 24, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by UNSure919400 (edited September 24, 2001).]

DT,<P>As MJ stated, I have given a child up for adoption. In fact, it was almost 14 years ago, and my H was still in high school, and I had just graduated. Yes, it is a VERY difficult decision, but if you think it would be best, it is one I would look into. Like MJ said, talk to an adoption agency to see what they can do for you. Think about it, if PM(from MJ's policeman) doesn't want his W to know about this child/pregnancy, you may be able to get him to agree to the adoption to keep her from finding out. It may be the leverage you need if you are still leaning towards the adoption.<P>My H and I are raising the child that I got pregnant with from an A, and are very happy with her. It was quite a different pregnancy, and I feel that may have been my "punishment" for what I had done. I had a lot of nausia, back pain, hip pain, etc.... But, now that she is here, she is one of the best babies I have ever known. Rarely does she cry unless she is hurt or hungry. She is VERY loved by her Daddy(my H) and her brother and sister. She is very healthy and happy, and my H is her Daddy in every way that counts! My point in this is that my H is very much like the other W's on this board who would love to have visitation or custody of the OC. They would love this child as their own, regardless of its biological parentage. Not everyone here has visitation, but that doesn't mean that they hate the child, just the situation that brought that child to be. <P>If you look at the definition of "[censored]" the very first definition is, "an illegitimate child". Which your child would be, whether the PM was married at the time of conception or not. You are not married to this man, and never were. Therefore, the child is a [censored]. My child could be classified as such, except that my H as chosen to raise her as if she were conceived of both of us, and is concidered a child of our marriage. OM never knew I got pregnant, and we hope he never does find out. We don't want him involved in our lives ever again, and will do everything to keep him away.<P>I am sorry if I rambled, but it just kept flowing from my fingers. I just wanted to give you my perspective on this situation. If you choose to raise this child alone, I hope you are a great parent. If PM wants to be involved, definately get a court order for such visitation/CS, that way you will have any necessary paperwork to be sure that things are kept "friendly". If you still are thinking about adoption, think about what I said about PM's W, and him not wanting her to find out about yet another child. It could very well give you the leverage you need to have him relinquish his rights, but be sure that he understands that it needs to be HIS decision to do so, not just to keep his W from finding out. That way, there isn't a loop-hole for him to jump through later. It is definately a sticky situation. Finally, please do not take offence to the OC being called a [censored]. By definition, that is what the child is, and I know that even those who call the child such, while venting, do not mean it in the deragatory manner. They are more angry at the situation, and the pain that their spouse and the OP have put them through than they are at the most innocent person in this whole situation. Just like you often say something that is not meant to hurt, it happens anyway.<P>The main thing to keep in mind here is that this is a place for the wives and husbands to come to vent over their situation, and to receive help. I will be honest, not very many OW have been accepted here. I am one of them, and the other main one is Obratti1(or as I fondly like to call her-OB1 ). We have been accepted because we respect what the others have said, even in their deepest pain! The most innocent parties in situations like this are the W's/H's(and the children of the marriage) and the OC. The most guilty are the OP and WS. As long as you keep it in that perspective, and respect the others opinions on this board, you will have a much easier time here.<P>Well, I gotta go, Abbi is hungry and showing her temper with it. I hope that I didn't offend, but helped instead.<P>Tigger