It actually went really well. I waited in the car while H went in to get them. OW came out and I was ready for a battle. I was shocked. She came over to the car to introduce herself and tell me she is glad I have decided to become a part of the child's life. We had a good day and later OW called the house to speak with ME. She knew H would not be home. A lot of what I suspected all along is true. Yes, she knew he was married and that was dead wrong, but the things he told her! She was under the impression I was cheating on him, in the process of divorcing him etc etc. I told her I may well kick him out and if she wants him he's all hers. Guess what? She doesn't want him. My H never intended to divorce me. I am everything he wanted in a marriage - looks, money, social life. All the things that don't matter. He never let me be that other side of him that needed fun and excitement and lots of sex. He went elsewhere for that and guess what? Both women ended up hurt and lied to. I have yet to tell him of our talk. Not sure what I am going to do. These cheating husbands, once they get caught, it's a WHOLE different story.

Oh, now its back to just one child instead of twins. How nice. And the ow is a decent caring person who never wanted your husband? And she deserves as much sympathy as the betrayed wife because she was hurt and lied to in the process of sleeping with somebody else's husband?<P>Hey Bonnie, while you're thinking up more tall tales, can you maybe include Paul Bunyan in the next one? I'm a big Paul Bunyan fan.<P>Geez, at least do us the favor of working towards CONSISTANCY from one time to the next.<BR>-cd

C.d., I thought I would help bonnie out here is one of her first post. posted July 18, 2001 02:32 PM <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Thanks for all your replies. I have only known 3 months. The OC, a boy, is almost a year. My H hasn't seen OC since I found out and wants nothing to do with OC, which is really the only way I would be able to have it. I just can't deal with it. I trust him that he won't see OC behind my back but sometimes i wonder why I trust him, or even stay with him. OW got pregnant on purpose. The affair lasted a little over two years. We have twin girls of our own, 11 years old. My H says he's sorry, she chased him etc etc. OW gets child support and wants H in OC's life but he doesn't want that, or so he says. Anyway, I am legally making sure OC can't get inheritance etc. I don't know though, sometimes I look at my H and hate him and I think that he's the one who created all this and I wonder if I am wrong to feel about OC the way I do. Sometimes I feel like a hypocrite since after all, I stay with him and I don't want anything to do with a little baby. I guess this confusion is normal.<P> posted September 20, 2001 12:34 PM <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Sorry to hear you are having a hard time. Visitation with the OC is hard. In my case I couldn't have it any other way. It's not just OW who chose to give OC this kind of life, it was H too. It's not a good situation no matter how you look at it. I had major shock. My husband ALSO has 2 OC. I don't know why he lied and said it was one. In fact the OW had twins, a boy and a girl. Financially we can afford the support no problem, but emotionally it does take it's toll. I am doing my best and I can't imagine them calling their Dad anything BUT Daddy when they are able. Yes, this does take something away from our children, but so would a divorce. There is no way to make the situation go away, people will hury - us wives, the OC, our children. There is just no way to make that any different. Our OW has been pretty decent. I know she still wants my H but I can't stop that. And I do make sure I am involved with all contact and H has cooperated. Still, I often feel intense hatred when I look at him. OF COURSE he's cooperative now. What else is he gonna be? They want to stay HOME. It's where all the comfort is. Mostly I am ok and we are in therapy, but really and truly, how can you ever totally forgive them? <BR> <BR> Maybe she confused her twin girls with a boy and a girl oc. Also maybe my kids were all gifted but shouldnt a child over a yr old be able to say daddy. <BR> Kinda a long time to be going through a divorce dont ya think over two yrs.<BR>Hey Bonnie please explain inquiring minds what to know. flowerseed<P><p>[This message has been edited by flowerseed (edited September 25, 2001).]

Flowerseed and Cdcollins, good for you. i'm interested in what bonnie has to say also.

Man, I am so very confused.....<P>I was gonna post that BBB shouldnt trust ow and relate my story of when me and ow got buddy buddy like that and ganged up on H. but now I dont know if I need to waste my energy. I still have tests to study for. BBB let me know what is up here.....

I have NEVER encountered a more hateful group of women and I plan to bring this to the administrators attn. WHAT THE HECK did I say to upset anyone? Who do you people think you are? To all of you who jumped on me, you OBVIOUSLY have NOT read all my posts. Stop jumping on me because I happen to think my husband IS the one to blame here. Maybe your siutation is different, but mine lied his [censored] off, and yes, at first I DID know only of one child and later discovered there were two. Go back and read my posts since you think you KNOW EVERYTHING about me. What a major clique going on here. If you don't hate OW and think she's out to get H then you can't even post on what's happening! Unbelievable. What did posting my earlier posts accomplish? Yes, my H is a LIAR and NO, I would not stand by and be his wife is he chose not to be a father. As it stands, I doubt I'll stay with him anyway. But why can't I share the fact that the OW IN MY CASE was not the monster H made her out to be? Why is that SOOOOO offensive to you. I never said she was a saint. My H is a major liar, that's MY opinion. If yours isn't, hooray for you! You are about the rudest bunch of women. If someone doesn't have your exact point of view, you all go into serious ATTACK MODE.

Bonnie, Its could have something to do with your annoying comments you made to gem and lemonpie. Gee I wonder why people have a problem with me! flowerseed<p>[This message has been edited by flowerseed (edited September 26, 2001).]

The reason I have a problem with bonniebb is because her language is completely offensive (remember "insert his penis into her vagina"...and just about half of her current posts are foul in language and hostile in tone) and she has repeatedly attacked women here for their viewpoints. She has responded maliciously and with intent to harm to several posters who were already hurting (remember her post to Mrs. Job? - there is a difference between expressing respectful disagreement and what that post did.). She continues to attempt to shove her viewpoints down our throats, all the while proclaiming that *we* are the ones who are trying to force our beliefs on others. <P>My dislike for bonniebb really has nothing to do with what she wrote on the ow subject - there are plenty of "other women" here that have my utmost and total respect (tigger4jdt, ohbratti, and most recently BTDT). <P>But... I feel that she has intentionally inflicted pain on members here more often than not...and I believe that she will continue to do so.<P>I find bonniebb's story to be inconsistant and frankly I do feel that she is a crasher in disguise. But that's just my opinion, and since I want to play by MB rules, I will no longer respond one way or another to her posts. If my attitude towards this particular subject or my previous reply to her offended any members, I apologize. <P>That is the last you'll hear from me on that subject <BR>-cd

HA HA HA HA, help me, I am laughing too hard. The remarks I made to Lemonpie, do you mean in response to her openly calling OC [censored] and saying she doesn't give a you-know-what WHAT happens to it???? Yeah, I'll remark on that for sure! And CD, you are right not to respond. You should really go back and read what I have posted, you'll clearly see I am constantly being attacked because I do not share the point of view of the "clique". I choose to put the blame where the blame belongs, not on an innocent child.

Bonniebb, I do not belong to a "clique". I also have not spoke badly of the OW in any of my posts. I, as an innocent and betrayed wife, do not wish harm to OW or the two innocent OC's. I simply want no contact, ever. That is my decision, not H's. <P>When you post here, you give me the impression you like to intimidate, belittle, and try to make the betrayed, innocent W's feel guilty for no reason of their own.<P>I really respect most of the W's that post here, but lady, you take the cake. I even respect my H's OW more than you.<P>ember

This is a quote by me BBB<P>"I was gonna post that BBB shouldnt trust ow and relate my story of when me and ow got buddy buddy like that and ganged up on H."<P>Now how is this hateful to you? And why group us all into a hateful group? You have never made any nice comments have you? Even to those who have contact with oc? I was going to post nicely, but I didnt want to waste energy if it turned out you were being deceitful. Not because I am rude, but because I have a lot on my plate right now and am studying my [censored] off. If you were sincere I was just going to tell you what happened to me, not what you should or should not do. This is your life and your marriage, not mine. I can not and will not dictate to you. And I am by nature a trusting person, but you really have said some mean things to some people. It makes one wonder..., but maybe you could post your whole story including both oc and maybe that would clear up some confusion. But if you reread your own words clearly you can see how you are making personal attacks. Try a different route and you will be reacted to differently. And we are by no means a ow-bashing clique here. Some of us are ow. Beenthere and Obratti1 are both ow and they are extremely respected and even loved here. Tigger has the "oc" and she is also respected and loved. We are all very different and handle our situations respectively. Dont take the way someone feels personally. It is not meant to tell YOU you are wrong by accepting ocs.

BB<P>I have seldom remarked or responded to any of your postings in the past, but I have read with interest your threads, postings and the responses you have received/inspired. Therefore, I feel I can be objective and perhaps explain what I see going on here.<P>When you first came to the forum, you were not well-received because of remarks that were made that caused most of the regular members here to become suspicious of your identity and motives and became defensive of your remarks. Everyone here is in scathing pain in one form or another and we are protective of each others' feelings because of the familiar pain we share.<P>If we give you the benefit of the doubt and write all this off to just another BW who is angry and bitter because you are in so much pain, I can almost buy that because I myself am always seething and can be very hard-lined in my responses. However, I measure carefully what I say so that none of my family here are hurt by something I say. We are all so traumatized, shell-shocked and bleeding...truly the walking wounded, we must protect ourselves and each other from any further sorrow. This is supposed to be a healing place, a sanctuary of kindness and understanding.<P>Many here really did/do believe you were an OW in disguise, baiting us, trying to hurt us by putting images in our heads, shaming us into accepting OC's or sparking a campaign to divorce our husbands and punish them more than we already have. But, maybe, just maybe we were wrong.<P>If we were/are wrong about you, if you are really one of us and have been met with hostility, suspicion and defensiveness, you have been misunderstood by us due largely by your own statements. That being said, you own the responsibility of starting off on the wrong foot with us and being combative instead of coming to us as a friend in need, open to us and seeking solace. Perhaps you just have a negative way of expressing your anger. However, that kind of attitude spawns suspicion and retailation rather than compassion and commiseration. You can get a lot more with honey than you can with vinegar.<P>If you are an OW in disguise, then I must commend you for your creative writing because you have been successful in confusing me as to who you are. Sometimes when I read your posts, I agree with some of what you say and other times I feel empathy towards you. And some of the time, I am suspicious and uncomfortable with what you have posted. Not just because of what you say but wondering about the intentions behind the post and what your agenda is.<P>My greatest concern is if you are indeed a betrayed wife and we have been wrong about you. The injustice of this possibility pains me. If you have been misunderstood, are truly a betrayed wife in need, I am deeply sorry you have been met with suspicion and have received no empathy or kindness or compassion for your pain. You have received nothing. You have been met with suspicion and hostility. If this is true, I am ashamed we were not there for you. If you have been lying to us and pretending to be a betrayed wife, then God will deal with you Himself for causing the innocents here on this site more pain and confusion.<P>I want to believe you, BB, but most of all, I want to put this mystery to rest. Somehow we need proof you are who you say you are, not just because you need to prove this to us but so that we will stop accusing you unjustly, which to me is the greater sin.<P>My proposal to you is to contact Tempest, our moderator, to mediate this 'bum rap' you are receiving. Allow her to determine who you are and report back to us your authenticity and if you are who you say you are, allow us to apologize and make amends for "bearing false witness aginast you".<P>Neither side is blameless here, so before anyone gets on their high horse, let us all accept responsiblity for our parts in this identity crisis and do so with compassion and understanding.<P>I hope you are who you say you are. If you are not, I hope you will leave in peace. If you are who you say you are, I trust you will contact Tempest and request her services as moderator. We will wait for Tempest's response.<P>I, for one, hope we can put all this behind us and move forward and give you our friendship and kindness and understanding and allow you to get what you need from this site. You are entittled to your opinions and I respect your feelings on the subjects posted here. Perhaps we can all learn from this experience of singling out someone who's views are sometimes abrasive, combative and hostile and understand they mean no harm and have issues of anger of their own that need to be resolved. And the newbies that come here filled with all kinds of opinions and say things that are hurtful need to learn the 'rules' of protection and guard against putting hurtful images into each others' heads. <P>We really did go through some really tough and rough spots with you, BB. You have to admit you used a sledge hammer when all that was necessary was a pat on the hand. Remember, it is all in the 'presentation'.<P>Catnip =^^= <p>[This message has been edited by catnip (edited September 28, 2001).]

Catnip I thought you'd gone yonder for a while. Good analagy, thanks.<P>Love<BR>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

yes bb i called the OC a [censored] and I STILL CONSIDER THE OC A [censored], and I STILL DON'T GIVE A SH... WHAT HAPPENS TO OC. AND I CARE LESS WHAT THE H... YOU THINK OW WITH A [censored] C.

LOL! Sorry Bonniebb, but lemonpie just caught me off guard and cracked me up right there... *sigh* whew, guess I needed something to shake me and wake me up here pulling my graveyard shift with a bunch of knots in my shoulders and trying to get them out with a tennis ball. A Swedish massage would be sooooo much better right now... Ahhhh! the thought! *yawn* Oh well, quit dreaming! Back to work!! <P>Well, Bonniebb, lemonpie is definitely NOT at the compassion phase of her healing and nobody is going to talk her out of how she feels... Maybe she'll get there (to compassion) maybe she won't, but that's how she feels and that's just it! <P>We can accept each other's right to feel whatever without being offensive and/or getting personally offended.

Excuse me, but Lemonpie is BEYOND offensive.<P>Lemonpie, You are a very angry, hateful woman and your anger is SOOOO misdirected it's a pity. Hate all you want. OC isn't your problem. H is and you know it. enjoy your miserable life and your child hating ways and remember evertime you call OC a [censored], you know darn well who the REAL [censored] is. Yeah, yeah, you can all save it, I know how "offensive" I am. I don't want to be in your clique and I sure as heck don't want to be part of a group who feels someone is justified to speak this way about a child. Grow up! I don't care how Lemonpie FEELS! There is a difference between right and wrong and her behavior is beyond childish. Yeah, forgive a liar and a cheater and turn around and hate a child. And we're supposed to sit here and think that's ok. It's not ok. Someone had to stand up and say so. I don't care to change her mind. She doesn't have it in her. Such a hypocrite. Love a cheating H and hate an innocent child. Whew! Hard to believe someone actually feels this way. Save the insults, I won't be posting anymore. This forum does nothing to help in healing, it's just support for people no matter what and that's not right.

BB<P>Try to understand that Lemonpie is shell shocked and traumatized by her recent 'discovery' and is currently in the rage stage. This is all brand new to her.<P>We all say hateful things we don't really mean in the beginning, even if we mean it at the time, we eventually cool down and feel sorry for our understandable lashing out. She's just venting her incredible pain, regardless of how it sounds, be it childish, vengeful or misdirected. It takes months of posting and studying and practicing the Harley principles for someone to be able to accept the worst posible thing that can happen to a marriage has happened to you.<P>I understand you lack the compassion to accept what other people feel in their various stages and feel the need to force your opinion because you see this as black and white when it is not.<P>I also understand your reluctance to continue here on this site and since this is not serving you or giving you what you need, I certainly understand your decision. However, you have not responded to my request to use our moderator as a 'go-between' in order to gain a better understanding of you and put to rest this "clique" label you have insisted on using as your argument as to why we have a problem with your delivery. <P>Until you came here, we had no clique. All have always been accepted. Your comments caused us to circle the wagons because many here believed you were a crasher, trying to inflict pain on the already wounded and nearly dead, thus giving you the illusion that we are a clique because we are protective of each other. We would be just as protective of you if someone was saying terrible things to you and causing you injury. <P>Everyone is welcome here as long as there is no hidden agenda and we are all who we say we are. I know you can understand this.<P>I cringe too when I read what some of the newcomers post because it is ususally so raw. I remember posting some outrageously venomous things when I first came here racked with pain that embarrasses me now. But no one chided me, scolded me or made me feel as if my feelings were not valid... no one told me I was wrong, everyone treated me with kindness and compassion and allowed me to work through the stages of rage, grief, acceptance on my own. My own progress due to this forum is light years ahead of where I was 2.5 years ago.<P>Bend, BB...it is time to bend. We have all been where Lemonpie is at one time or another...perhaps we were not as blatantly honest about our rage and hate at the time as she is, maybe we cared more about how others would view us, but we all felt and said much of what she has felt and said. (cringe) But the beauty of this place is to be able to say these awful things, the anonymoty, and we just accept the rage as a temporary and necessary stage as part of the grief process. She will shake this probably faster than most because she really vocalizes what she is thinking and will probably heal faster because of it. <P>I admit I am uncomfortable with what some of the newcomers say and often wonder if the horrid things I said in the beginning caused the oldtimers discomfort back then. But they we so kind and so giving and let me rant and offered compassionate and loving solutions...which ultimately helped me heal. <P>All this acceptance we give one another here is a beautiful thing...and it is something I would like to give to you, if you are legit and willing to compromise and accept all of us, and our feelings and our various stages, so we can in turn accept you and your opinions. ALL your opinions are welcome and accepted as long as you say it with kindness, tact and care...it is all in the delivery, BB...do we have to send you to charm school to learn some diplomacy?...for we are a wounded bunch and this is why you haven't fared well here.<P>We can work this out, BB...how about responding to me...you have never responded to any of my comments to you. If you do not, I will have to assume that you are simply spoiling for a fight and are not interested in anything reasonable and non-combative...I hope I am wrong.<P>Catnip =^^=

Bringing this to the top

I will respond when I have the time. I don't now and don't plan to really post here anyway. Two qucik points, being in shock is no excuse for being hateful. I'm in the earlier stages then she is and I certainly do not and WOULD not use the term [censored] no matter what. Second, there IS a clique and anyone can be in it, as long as you subscribe to the same thought and as long as you keep quiet no matter how outrageous the statments, AS LONG AS it's AGAINST the child and the OW. There were other posters when I first came here who agreed with me and they got scared away. I come here to say I think it's no one's fault but husbands and that I DO think it's hypocritical to forgive H but demand no contact or even just tolerate it. I am attacked because of these beliefs and nothing els. Gotta run.

Catnip,<P>I think she is a lost cause. She never responded to me either and I am tired of reading nothing but thrash coming from her.<P>BBB,<P>I am tired of it. You are full of you-know-what. There is no way if you are a BW that you are anywhere near the stage Lemon is in. If you have ever been even close to where she is you would understand. I was willing to love oc. Even before she was born I made myself accept this. That does not mean in anyway there was not times I did not think the same thoughts Lemon has vocalized. I personally didnt want to say them outloud even to myself but I am not a hypocrite and I did think them. If you are a BW, which I doubt, you are a HYPOCRITE. Quit lying to yourself. And if you are not lying to yourself, quit lying to us. Go play these games with someone else. Quit picking on those who are obviously new in this drama and emotional. Pick on someone your own size. Im sure any of the oldies would take a newbies place on this. Get a life. Deal with your man, whosever's he may be and deal with your child. And I know the only way you will reply to me is if you can say something meanspirited. When I was nice, when Catnip was nice we got nothing. How hard it will be for you to prove me wrong......