<small>[ January 20, 2003, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: whatif? ]</small>

Same here!<P>I hope no one is offended by my side of the fence either. I agree with whatif that everyone knows themselves well enough to decide on the best possible arrangements conducive to marriage building.<P>I think everyone should stand by their own convictions wholeheartedly. We decide our paths based on our individual life experience and/or where God is leading us and we all have to walk and live in our own shoes comfortably!

But why should we worry about walking comfortably in our own shoes when someone innocent has come along? Someone who was born out of the PURE selfishness of our husbands and the women they willingly had intercourse with? I just don't see it? Those who say the marriage comes first at all costs. To me, that makes no sense. The marriage did NOT come first when this child was being created. Now that the child exists, it's a fine time to decide that NOW it's time to put marriage first. We betrayed wives ARE inncoent but we have choices. We can stay or we can go. In my opinion, if you choose to stay, it's dead wrong to CHOOSE to stay but to make sure the innocent OC is no part of it. It's not a contest. We all know the OW was wrong. But it is the responsibility of the child's PARENTS to be there for the child. Like it or not, our husbands ARE the fathers. How do you figure that making sure OC is nowhere near you and H, that this is putting the marriage first? I think it's real easy to say, yeah sure, do what's right for you. But what about standing up for what is RIGHT, not just what's right for you. I initially felt like many of you, that I hated OW AND OC. I went so far as to make sure OC would get nothing should H die. I have reversed on all that. I took a good look at the real problem and you know what? It's not the affair, the OW or the kids. It's my marriage AND my husband's way of handling the obvious problems we had. Come on, you don't go out and have an affair and risk pregnancy just because you're bored. It's the symptom of a problem and in my case, our problems are far from solves. Whether or not they can be is another issue, but my husband not being a father to his child isn't gonna make our problems any better. Why make the TRULY innocent ones suffer. We aren't innocent. We are aware of out marital problems and when someone betrays us, we can leave. Most of us don't and then complain about the circumstances that WE agreed to stay in.

Bonnie, <BR>I wish I could figure out how to cut and paste on this forum. But the statement you made about "we are aware of our marital problems, and when someone betrays us we can leave" Yes I am aware now of my marital problems, but I am not ready to give up on my 26 year marriage yet, and I come her to use this forum to vent, complain, ask advice and for support from others in similar situations, while I am sorting out my options. Today my H had his individual therapy session, and the one thing therapist told H was that I (bs) was going thru a grieving period. I still am trying to sort out my feelings towards the 2oc. Quite a bit to swallow learning of A and 2oc all at once.<P>Tina<BR>

I find it interesting that this thread began by telling everyone that they have a right to their feelings. yet here comes Bonnie shoving her opinion down our throat. I have been lurking for quite a while, I was an original oldie. <P>Bonnie, I have heard it and read it over and over. This thread is not a preaching area, neither is this forum. My background was my h having a one night stand, a whopping 30 minutes. If you think that every situation is the same, then you live in the wrong country. I assume you are against sperm donor clinics, afterall those children don't have fathers. How do you feel about celebrities such as Rosie, who has four adopted children, no dad. Kids can live without a male influence. Yes, I do not have contact, did I make that decision? NO. My H made that decision two years before I ever found out. He never wanted contact, he wanted a abortion, she wanted another check. Would I want him to have contact, no. and just like everyone has said here, it isn't up to anyone to make some one do something they don't want to do. That includes yourself.<P>babstr.

Babstr<BR>Can ya read???? Did I say every situation is the same? No, I didn't. In fact I clearly stated that IN MY CASE, my H lied his [censored] off. Do you read only what you want to read? Don't bother to respond. I am entitled to my opinion and I WILL stand up for what I believe to be right. Support to you women is just agreeing with what you say, no matter how wrong it may be.

Hear, Hear to Whatif?, BTDT, Tina, and Babstr!!! Just as Whatif? stated, everyone is different, and entitled to their own choices on this situation! I just wanted to add that even though there are great similarities in all our situations, there is a MAJOR difference for all of us. That difference is that we are all different from each other. There is no one answer/solution that would apply for all of us. We all have to do what is right for our marriages, and then, if both spouses are in agreement, visitation can be examined more closely.<P><BR>To BonnieBB,<P>You stated here and in your other thread that the marriage shouldn't come first. Well, I think that if you feel so poorly about your H and your marriage, JUST LEAVE!!!! This site, as you have been told numerous times, is called "MARRIAGE BUILDERS"! So, of course, everyone here is looking to save their marriages, first and foremost! I may not be in the same shoes as most of the wonderful women here, but my H is in the shoes of the men who come to this forum. We both chose to save our marriage, and deal with the problems that led us to where we are today. <P>I can tell you that your coming here has now become a source of entertainment for me. I find your comments to be funny at times, because I can remember when you first showed up, and how YOU attacked US for our views. <P>If you come here, post a thread and expect to be accepted, after you had been "lurking" for a while, well, the women here have very long memories, and they won't put up with someone trying to either force their views on them, or attack them for their own views on their situations. <P>Like Tina stated, I'm not willing to just give up on 12 years of marriage, just because my H had multiple affairs in the past, and I was stupid enough to have 2 myself. Yes, I did have a child from this last A, but have definately learned my lesson, and my H is the only true "Daddy" that our daughter will ever have. The last thing I would want would be to have the OM try to be a father to my D! Not just because of his violent tendancies, but that would definately disrupt our family that we have worked to build back up from the rubble that was caused just over a year ago.<P>For as long as you try to shove your views/opinions down our throats, you will not receive a friendly welcome here. You have continually been the agressor, to which we have responded. This is not a clique that has the same views, because if it was, you wouldn't have threads started like this one of statements that everyone's opinions are respected, and everyone's actions for their situations are also respected. <P>Finally, if you do go to the admin about your complaint, be sure to include ALL your posts from the past! I still have a hard time believing anything you have posted as the truth. You tend to contradict yourself, or immediately attack others' points of view. I am sure they will see you for who/what you are, and I doubt they will be kicking us off the boards. <P>If you are truly in the situation you claim to be, and truly want help from this board, then I suggest you get off your high horse, and accept the fact that everyone here is different from you, and everyone else on the board for that matter. There can never be one "answer" to these situations, since everyone is different, and handles things in different ways. Until you can see it that way, expect to be attacked.<P>Tigger

Dear Tina:<P>1. Open up two versions of your broswer. <P>* If you use Netscape, this is done by slecting <B>Communicator>Navigator</B>. That means, go to the <B>Communicator</B> menu and pull down and select "Navigator."<P>* If you use Internet Explorer, do this by selecting <B>File>New>Window</B><P>2. In the first broswer, get ready to reply to a message just like you always do, by clicking the "Reply" area at the top of the Marriage Builders web page.<P>3. In the second browser find the old text that you want to copy. Highlight that text with your mouse.<P>4. With the cursor still hovering over that text, copy the text to the clipboard (the clipboard is a type of memory space that holds just one thing at a time [in this case a few lines or few paragraphs of text] until you are ready to paste that text somewhere else.)<P>Hint: In most PC browsers, you can copy text to the clipboard by choosing <B>Edit>Copy</B> or by pressing the <control> and <c> keys at the same time.<P>4. Move your cursor over the area where you want to copy the text.<P>5. To paste the text into your message, either choose <B>Edit>Paste</B> or pressing the <control> and <c> keys at the same time.<P>Hope that helps. <P>PS If you want the quote to appear like it does in some of the messages here (indented with a ruling line above and below the quote, put " [ QUOTE ]" before the copied text (leave out the space between the square bracket and the word "quote." Also, leave out the space after the word "quote" and before the closing square bracket. There! now you just learned your first bit of HTML code. (HTML code is what makes web pages work. OK--this is UBB code, but it is similar.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mrs. Job (edited September 26, 2001).]

Bonniebb, you stated,"we can go or stay." I did not "choose" to stay. I filed for divorce twice. My H is the one who "chose" to stay married to me. Also, I met the OW, in person , for a week-end. I do not hate her. <P>Also, when a person has sex, they have consented to have sex. They are not consenting to parenthood.<P>H and I have no contact. Hubby's and my wishes.<P>With the resentment you have toward your H, how can you possibly be a good example to OC, let alone your own? <P>ember

Hi Bonniebb,<BR>I think you raised some excellent points, thank you, and I agree with you on many. I can only speak for myself, so by no means think that I try to speak for everyone so I'm going to try to keep it as my opinion and nothing more. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but nobody is entitled to the wrong facts. The facts are that affairs cause damage and pain to innocent lives. Pain is relative. How people deal with their own personal pain is according to their personal values.<P>So to answer your points:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bonniebb:<BR><B>But why should we worry about walking comfortably in our own shoes when someone innocent has come along? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, that is why I chose not to abort my OC. I decided to raise him alone. Little did I know the struggle that was ahead of me. I couldn't do it. MM & his W DID step up to the plate and pay child support when requested. That was the best they could do and I accepted that. Everything turned out as fine as it could be.<P>That was all they could do to "walk comfortably in their shoes." To us, the biological father of my oldest could be considered as a sperm donor. He could only do the best he could do and that was the best he could do. Period.<P>Bottom line is I have to face God and myself every day for my personal decisions which are really nobody else's business. If I can face myself and God with a clear conscience--that's what I consider to be walking comfortably in my own shoes.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bonniebb:<BR><B> Someone who was born out of the PURE selfishness of our husbands and the women they willingly had intercourse with? I just don't see it? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Me either Bonniebb, because my kid was not born out of pure selfishness. He might have been conceived in selfishness, but he was BORN into love and acceptance. He is and was always loved and wanted by me and he will always be loved and wanted and cherised by me.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bonniebb:<BR><B>Those who say the marriage comes first at all costs. To me, that makes no sense. The marriage did NOT come first when this child was being created. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>TRUE, but when you sign up here at Marriage Builders, the GOAL is to save the marriage. Right?<P>What does Harley say about it? Hmmm... Let's see? Here's an excerpt from one of his Q&A columns on surviving infidelity:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>There are no simple answers to any of these questions, but the Policy of Joint Agreement, the second rule that should have guided your marriage, gives you direction regarding the answers. According to the Policy of Joint Agreement, you and your husband should answer each of them in a way that takes each other's feelings into account. If one of you is not enthusiastic about one answer, consider others until you can agree. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So you see Bonniebb, it's going to be up to the individual couples as to what they both can be enthusiastically in agreement about. If someone--either the wife or the husband is not enthusiastic about being involved with OW/OC and seeing OW/OC on a regular basis, then is it fair to OC in the long run? <P>Oh yes, it's a FACT that H's sperm impregnated the OW, but isn't the OC better off living in an environment where OC is celebrated rather than tolerated. Can't you see that? What about compassion for the kid going around someone who is uncomfortable with their very existence? It has been said that kids can tell when they are wanted in the womb, how much more would they sense a feeling of rejection in real life? Protecting the kid by no contact to me, has its merits if you look at it this way, right?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bonniebb:<BR><B>Now that the child exists, it's a fine time to decide that NOW it's time to put marriage first. We betrayed wives ARE inncoent but we have choices. We can stay or we can go.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Okay Bonniebb, good point, let's see what Harley has to say again:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Dr.Harley on the POJA:</B><BR>If you had been guided by this rule from the time you were first married, none of this would have ever happened to you. Honesty would have protected you from the affair, since you would have told your spouse about your feelings toward your lover early in the relationship. And your honesty would have set into motion a plan to avoid the affair. But it's not too late to be honest. You have years of marriage ahead of you, and the rest of your years together should be guided by truth, not lies. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So ya gotta start somewhere? Is it fair to put people down for trying to start somewhere? From what I have gathered in my brief time spent in these discussion forums, the marriages here in Pregnancy/Child are the ones that are REALLY solid--in spite of... <P>Most of the cheaters who have not made OCs are either shacking up with OPs, stringing their spouses along with their fogese language and waffling--home one night, at OPs the next, in bed with BSs one night and OPs the next, bringing home STDs and crabs while denying affairs, treating BSs like WS infidelity is all their fault for not meeting their needs, WSs being emotionally and verbally abusive! <P>Now I could be wrong, but BSs whose affairs have not created OCs seem to have it a lot rougher than the BSs here, because of their lack of accountability. OC definitely brings a reality check into our lives! AND... BSs here have decisions to make that will haunt them for the rest of their lives because of innocent OCs so lighten up! Please! Everybody is doing their very best with what they've got to work with--even you! Everybody has the right to make decisions and change their minds later, like you did... But it took time for you to evolve in your choice right? Why can't everyone have that right?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bonniebb:<BR><B>In my opinion, if you choose to stay, it's dead wrong to CHOOSE to stay but to make sure the innocent OC is no part of it. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And that's fine for you. It's your opinion according to your values, and you're entitled to it. But you can't say I'm dead wrong or dead right in my personal choices. At least not in this forum because MB is about basing marital decisions on a policy of joint agreement. If one is not enthusiastically in agreement, then it's not right for the couple.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bonniebb:<BR><B>It's not a contest. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You know that and I know that and BSs definitely know that, but some other women try to turn it into a contest because they have not given up on trying to win over the BSs spouse! You probably have an agreeable OW who appreciates your involvement. Maybe some OW do not trust BSs because of the way OC was conceived? Maybe some OW do not feel comfortable because of their guilt about their mistakes? I said I would not try to speak for others, and I'm basing this on what I have read here AND my own experience. I felt I had done enough damage to MMs marriage and I needed to go my own way. But guess what? The going got rough and I needed to go crawling back to MM and his W for financial support. They stepped up to the plate and gave it. To me, they are to be commended for that. They didn't have to do that, but they did every month for 13 years and I appreciated it.<P>Why insist on the MM's wife's involvement when she could not emotionally bring herself to that level? YUCK! I would never do that to an innocent kid, sorry. It would be unhealthy for both of them.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bonniebb:<BR><B>We all know the OW was wrong. But it is the responsibility of the child's PARENTS to be there for the child. Like it or not, our husbands ARE the fathers. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nope, I disagree. Maybe that's true in your case, and it may be a biological fact, but in my case--and every case is different, the father of MY children is the one who is there in their every day life. My OC doesn't even KNOW his bio dad and vice versa. They know each other's names. Does that make MM his father? NOT! In my case, the father of OC is my husband, my OCs stepfather. OC knows this for a fact.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bonniebb:<BR><B>How do you figure that making sure OC is nowhere near you and H, that this is putting the marriage first? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Because OW and OC are connected. If OW is undermining the marriage, she has to go, it's a plain and simple fact. It sounds cruel to OC, but just reality. Maybe I'm wrong Bonniebb, but putting the marriage first simply does not include an OW who is still in love with the husband and still a threat to the marriage because she still has the hots for the husband and can't wait to screw him again!!! <P>To me, it just sounds like you believe your OW is no longer a threat to your marriage, I don't know because you have not posted any updates lately. And it's great that you can trust your husband's OW! Some OW out there are not reasonable people and want to get the Hs back in bed and continue the affair at all costs. One price being the sanity of the BS! Suppose your H has another OC with OW because they continued to sleep together behind your back? And don't think it couldn't happen again! Have you not read some of the stories out here regarding multiple OCs?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bonniebb:<BR><B>I think it's real easy to say, yeah sure, do what's right for you. But what about standing up for what is RIGHT, not just what's right for you. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nothing wrong with that, but one could argue that the right thing IS what's right for me--according to the POJA established between me and my spouse. Period. In any case, do you think it's fair to put people down when they are sometimes simply venting their frustrations? Everyone is at a different stage in life. We all evolve in our spiritual growth. What is "right" to people is based on personal values. So no one can dictate what is right for another person. Not everyone believes in the 10 commandments! Not everyone uses God's Word as their final authority. Heck, I am fully aware of God's Laws, and I still break them!<P>In a public forum such as this where people have different beliefs and values, Bonniebb, you can't just come out and say "you (BSs) are dead wrong for feeling the way you do" because it's just as bad as WSs who try to set recovery time limits on their hurting BSs by telling them to just get over it. It simply won't fly. I say this to you in all respect Bonniebb.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bonniebb:<BR><B>We are aware of out marital problems and when someone betrays us, we can leave. Most of us don't and then complain about the circumstances that WE agreed to stay in. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree with you halfway on this one because there is a saying I believe in, "Never complain about what you permit." You have my one thumb up on this one.<P>On the other thumb, it still boils down to the policy of joint agreement and what couples enthusiastically decide.<P>Many BSs have conceded to their spouse's decision to be involved with OC. They were NOT enthusiastically supportive and sometimes even the husbands make unfair judgmental (LOVE BUSTING) remarks like, "What kind of Christian are you (not to be involved with OC)?" So in that case, POJA definitely needs to be revisited.<P>Being a Christian doesn't mean I get to let somebody rub my nose in pain they caused me. I can forgive with my door closed. But you see, even the "Christian thing to do" is according to where everyone is located in their own relationship with God and no one can judge that but the individual & God.<P>To clarify for you Bonniebb, when I say "do what is right for you," it means do what you can live with because everybody's moral scale is different. I don't say it because I'm being flippant about it. I don't post without thinking about my responses. But then, I type as fast as I think , but I'm just trying to let you know that I DO THINK FIRST about what I say here ESPECIALLY on Pregnancy/Child because there are deep scars. Why rub salt in them?<P>If you don't believe in God then forget everything I said about being Christian because the devil doesn't play fair and there will be no holds barred! Not believing in God doesn't mean God doesn't exist any more than disbelieving in the devil will make him go away, either!<p>[This message has been edited by BINthereDUNthat (edited September 27, 2001).]

Don't know where to begin. This is such a liberal site. I don't have time to address everything mentioned but for starters....<BR>Ember, please don't be ridiculous. If you are still married to your H, you CHOSE to stay married to him. Unless he has you locked up in the basement so you cannot get to a lawyer, you chose to stay married to him. He is not forcing you. Let's not even go there, it's too silly!<P>Tigger4jdt - I do not believe there is only one way to "build your marriage" Saying that the only way it will work for you in my opinion is like saying the only way an alcoholic can solve his problem is to live somewhere where there are no bars. That may prevent him from drinking but it does not solve his problems. Not being a father to the OC has nothing to do with your marital problems and why you are where you are. In additon, all it DOES do is hurt someone innocent. As for why I am attacked, it doesn't bother me a bit. There IS a definite clique here. There were plenty of women who agreed with me yet they were chased away. If I am a source of entertainment for you, imagine how I feel about you. No matter what I say, if it doesn't jive with how YOU feel, if it isn't ULTRA LIBERAL and screams of "do what's right for you, there is no right or wrong, only what's right for you etc etc" then I am bashed. It's funny. It's also funny you say you don't want to give up years of your marriage. Isn't your marriage strong enough to handle an innocent child? I am not the one SHOVING opinions down your throat. You just can't take it that I have the guts to voice how wrong I think you are. Your H is the one who messed up, not the OC! And I think what you mean in your last statement is "until you see it MY way, expect to be attacked" At least be honest.<P>Binthere - No, it's not better for the child not to see their Father because he's uninterested in seeing him. My point is, hell would FREEZE over before I'd stay with a man who was such a creep he didn't WANT to see his own child. To me, that's the lowest and women who condone it, even demand it, in my opinion are even worse. I CANNOT for the life of me understand how a woman who KNOWS her husband lied and cheated and probably continued to until he was caught, can stay with him. I cannot see respecting that. OF COURSE it's easier on the couple when they choose no contact. It's a lot easier to just sweep it under the rug isn't it. Sure, it's GREAT if OW is married and there is another male figure, then H is off the hook if he wants to be. But to deliberately abandon an INNOCENT child, to refer to it and see it as a [censored], compliments of Lemonpie, to me is an utter disgrace. I would not, I will not be with a man who would do this. Luckily my H wanted contact all along, AT THE VERY LEAST, I can repsect THAT about him. But these men who say "oh no honey, I don't want contact" Who are we kidding? Of COURSE they don't want contact. It's so much easier for them this way, they feel like they are pleasing you as if it's some sick contest between you and the child, they don't have to deal with the child or face the OW, they can play the good guy now, after all the pain they created. These kids will miss something NO MATTER WHAT, but to purposely turn away because you don't have the guts to do what's right is sick. And you know what, I haven't said a word lately to ANYONE who feels this way. I have ignored them. All I did was post about MY situation and all I got was a lot of wiseass comments. I DIDN'T ATTACK - YOU DID. The reason? Because YOU are the ones who cannot tolerate that someone doesn't agree with you. If you don't want to know my opinion on your situations, DON'T attack me about mine. As for the new poster, Twisty - she posted about her story and I didn't even comment. I WANTED to, I wanted to say NO WONDER your husband's family feels the way they do, OF COURSE they want him to embrase his child. I think it's laughable that she considers that to be a betrayal of HER. But I didn't say a word did I? No. But even when all i am doing is commenting on MY situation, you all attack. No, that's NOT allowed on the board and THAT is exactly what I am taking note of. No, I WON'T expect to be attacked because I do not share the pov if the clique. And don't ever tell me to expect to be attack. Sounds like a threat to me!<BR>Oh and Ember - yes, consenting to sex IS consenting to the POSSIBILITY of pregnancy, no matter HOW slim the chance may be. THAT'S why we teach our kids about waiting until marriage. Your H should NOT have had sex if he didn't want to take the risk of a child. I don't care if he wore 12 condoms, HE is responsible for where his sperm goes. Birth control's goal is to TRY to prevent pregnancy but everyone knows NO method is 100% effective. Please!<BR>Another point - I NEVER said MM's wife has to be involed with OC - that's totally up to her. In my case I am going for it. But from early on, after the initial shock, I knew HE HAD to be involved and he knew it too. I don't care if the wives do or don't. She isn't the parent, the H and OW are, the wife will only be a friend if she chooses to be or like a step parent if the OC spends time in her home.<BR>I don't get you, you talk about putting the marriage first and how that just doesn't include OW - NO KIDDING! You're marriage will NEVER be the same. When you CHOOSE to stay you must understand that you are signing up for a whole new package. If there was no OC, OF COURSE there would be no contact, but once again, because Hubby CHOSE to have an affair and CHOSE to take the chance of pregnancy, isn't it a BIT ridiculous to try to act as if you are trying to rebuild from scratch? Like it or not, your H HAVE other children. That's the point at where you must begin to deal. I am SOOOOO sick of the attitue in this country where everyone is so wishy washy. There IS a right and wrong and it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with what's right for YOU, how it works into YOUR life or YOUR marriage or how it makes YOU feel. I may decide I want to stop seeing my husband's parents because I just don't like them anymore. GET REAL. That would be wrong. They have never harmed me, just like OC hasn't. Just because it may mane me FEEL better and therefore my marriage will SEEM better. That's a crock! When is someone going to stand up for what's right? Feelings and what works for you have NOTHING to do with what is right or wrong. And if you cannot handle what's right, you shouldn't be in the situation. It's like discovering your H has a criminal record and deciding to stay married to him but not wanting anything to do with the consequences. What you see is what you get. Your H had an affair and produced a child. That's it. If you can work with, great! If not, get out. I am trying to deal with my situation, if I can't, I will get out. But I can't imagine saying, I'll stay with you but make all that mess you created go away so I feel better and you feel better and we all feel better and our marriage feels better and it's easier etc etc etc. ESPECIALLY when the thing you want to go away is a human being, not a [censored] as Lemonpie is so fond of saying.

You know BBB, you keep telling the others to "READ AGAIN". Well, READ AGAIN!!!!!!! I, not my H, am the one who had the OC!!! MY H is the one who is raising her as HIS, and the OM can rot in HE!! before I would ever allow him to know about this child!!!! I have not said that you have to accept my way as the right was, because I am as individual as everyone else on this board. What I said is that until you accept that everyone here IS handling their situations in their own way and not YOUR way, expect to be attacked! I have never offered the W's on this board advice as to how to handle their situations. I have never told them that they are rude, or spiteful, because they are not! Many of them are still dealing with the pain involved in this horrible mess that has come into their lives. You were attacking others from the start. Have never waivered from your way of thinking, and have tried to shove your opinions down everyone else's throats! I have never claimed to there being only one way to deal with this situation, in fact, I have agreed with the many DIFFERENT ways the women here deal with the OC/OW in their lives. Again, be sure you know what you are responding to, and don't take one sentence totally out of context to comment on. My last statement was, in fact, 2 sentences. If you need a reminder, I said:<P>There can never be one "answer" to these situations, since everyone is different, and handles things in different ways. Until you can see it that way, expect to be attacked.<P>If you have a problem with that statement, oh well. Enough time wasted here.

Tigger, I had to laugh pretty hard when I seen that about you not accepting oc. Hello is there any body in there. Thanks for trying. <BR> with love flowerseed <BR>

Tigger, I loved it.<P>ember

I thought this post was started to encourage each of us<BR>to feel safe with our own decisions in this mess.<P>How quickly things turn ugly...<P>seems no matter what you choose, you are still a deadbeat.<BR>It isnt just black and white...there are sooo many things<BR>to consider. Why do women have the option of adoption if<BR>she feels the baby will be better raised that way, yet<BR>if the man feels that way...he is ONLY trying to avoid cs.<P>I know for a fact my H is a good man. He works hard to<BR>support OUR children, he never complains, he is a dedicated<BR>father. Unfortunatly he made one bad decision that led me<BR>to this site. He is heartbroken over creating a life that<BR>was not intended to be with this op. He is sickened and<BR>ashamed. Do we blame the oc? No. Do we wish she would have<BR>put the baby up for adoption to a loving, STABLE family? YES. <BR>Personally, I dont feel COMFORTABLE about any of this.<BR>It has taken a large piece of happiness out of my life and<BR>left heartache in it's place.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bonniebb:<BR><B>Babstr<BR>Can ya read???? Did I say every situation is the same? No, I didn't. In fact I clearly stated that IN MY CASE, my H lied his [censored] off. Do you read only what you want to read? Don't bother to respond. I am entitled to my opinion and I WILL stand up for what I believe to be right. Support to you women is just agreeing with what you say, no matter how wrong it may be. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>BB<P>Do you have to be such a snot? No wonder you are not well received here. You have caused a division...you and us, and it shouldn't be that way. If there is a 'clique', it is of your creation.<P>I would like to see you be more sensitive to the myriad of situations here on this site and talk to the members with more understanding and compassion if you wish to receive understanding and compassion in return.<P>BB, your opinions are your opinions and I am willing to respect your point of view even if I personally do not agree with them...why can you not afford the reciprocation? You complain everyone here is so mean when in reality, you are the one saying such nasty things. I truly want to understand you and why you draw such a hard line in the sand refusing to allow any grey areas.<P>Catnip =^^=<P>

Duh Tigger, I KNOW your story. We were bebating about wives, OC and OW in general. THAT'S what the topic was. But good job evading all the issues.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>4 entries found for [censored].<BR>To select an entry, click on it. (Click 'Go' if nothing happens.) <BR> [censored][1,noun][censored][2,adjective]alulabastard wing <P>Main Entry: 1bas·[censored] <BR>Pronunciation: 'bas-t&rd<BR>Function: noun<BR>Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, probably of Germanic origin; akin to Old Frisian bost marriage, Old English bindan to bind<BR>Date: 14th century<BR>1 :" an illegitimate child"<BR>2 : something that is spurious, irregular, inferior, or of questionable origin<BR>3 a : an offensive or disagreeable person -- used as a generalized term of abuse b : MAN, FELLOW<BR>- bas·[censored]·ly adjective <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>BBB I had to send this to ow also. I calls 'em as I sees 'em!<P>That IS the meaning behind the word, [censored].<P>OKAY?<P>Too bad for the baby in my case. It would have been a wonderful experience to have him around. His mother(F'r) just didn't get it that H had so much disdain for her he wouldn't call her to see him . She wouldn't let me call. As my former friend I'm sure she was intimidated by me.<P>She can't cook.<P>She doesn't share years of history with ANY man let alone my H.<P>She has 3 other kids whose father is gone due to the situation...what about him? Ow forced him out to make room for my H...too bad my H didn't want anything to do w/her after SHE lied about being on the pill!!! Forced parenthood here and we did our best to make it work. It didn't.<BR>Ow wants my H and will never have him. He compares her to the song "Maneater" by Hall and Oates!!! Incredible huh?<P>Constantly at the beginning made fun of her body and DESCRIBED her to me and all the guilt and sickness he went through to get away. THREATS and BABIES do not divide true love. He had enough of her threats to tell me and began to pray.<BR>He thanks God each day I've forgiven him. <BR>Never in a million years would be w/ow anyway...even if I left! So how would baby have a dad? She should reconsider her H and thank God for him and her 3 kids w/him and the fact he'll raise baby as his own!!!! THAT would be best for HER 3 kid's me and H, baby, AND Ow She's too stupid to see it!!!<P>Enough! I need to spend Friday w/H....he can't wait to bed me...neither can I....<P>Debi<P>No love for you BBB...sorry, just prayers to you and your whacked out mind!!!!! Sorta like ow in our case....sheeze....<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bonniebb:<P><BR>Not being a father to the OC has nothing to do with your marital problems and why you are where you are. <P>It's also funny you say you don't want to give up years of your marriage. Isn't your marriage strong enough to handle an innocent child? <P>Your H is the one who messed up, not the OC! <P>OK, so if you "KNOW" my situation, why the above comments? Again, I think that you need to keep your stories straight! OH, and to answer the above question about our marriage being strong enough to handle an innocent child, YES!!!<P>

Gemini, my hats off to you in giving bb the definition of [censored]. i have decided not to respond to bb because i think she is the OW and she has a [censored] C thats why my calling the OC a [censored] hurts her so much. as they say "the truth hurts". anyway, just for the record, i chose to stay with my BS because unlike my h i know that i must think of all involved and i have my children to consider because in my eyes they are the truly innocent ones and this is why i will NEVER accept the OC, [censored] C (this really upsets you doesn't bb)yes the [censored] C will NEVER be a part of my or my children life. as i stated before my dh now HAS A CHOICE he could remain in [censored] C life and leave this home or he could have no contact with [censored] C and work on this marriage. you see bb if just because you make a mistake doesn't mean you have to live with it forever, the OW choose the fate of her D not I because despite what you wrote, dh has no control over paternity the woman does and no my dh did not agree to a C he agreed to sex. the OW DECIDED to have this child and SHE now has to live with her decision which is to have an innocent C fatherless and have her labeled a [censored] C. isn't she a lovely mother.