I am curious.....a lot of you hate OW in your situations. This I can understand. I am fortunate in that the OW in our case is a decent person. I read a lot of you saying how she chased your H, how ugly, how slutty, how disgusting she is. Again, I can understand all this anger. What I cannot relate to though is....how do you not feel the same about your H. After all, while OW may be all these awful things, she is not married to you. But your H, he is as guilty as the OW but MORE so! He is the one married to you, he is the one who lied. I am not saying you shouldn't fogive him, but why do so many of you feel it makes sense to hate the OW, yet forgive the H and chalk it up to a mistake, a weak moment or whatever. Also, a lot of you say that you can forgive him because he apologized. Well, is that really all it takes? Of course he was going to apologize. I just can't fathom thinking OW is all these awful things, but someone still being able to share a bed with the man who is the one who lied to you. Help me understand.

BonnieBB,<p>I don't really know you other than what you write here, and I do not normally post here, as I do not have an OC to contend with... however... my ex had at least five OW, and I also was an OW once, so I think I am qualified to discuss this with you.<p>If you want to pursue this topic, why not go to GQII and post there? Do you not grasp that this particular forum is the ONE PLACE where these men and women feel SAFE and PROTECTED? <p>If you insist on pursuing this here, I can answer you by saying this:<p>BOTH SIDES ARE GUILTY -- both the betraying spouse and the OP (man or woman). <p>The INNOCENT people are the BETRAYED spouse (and the child who is conceived). Neither asked for the pain heaped on them by their SELFISH, UNTHINKING, STUPID (not using birth control these days is so dumb, and I would question whether it was done on purpose if there was no emotional or mental illness involved) and CARELESS spouse/parent.<p>That said, I have always felt that the spouse who broke the vows was MORE guilty, as far as *I* was concerned. The OW did not make a vow to me. However, I hated the OW's - each and every one - but most especially those women who knew me, called themselved Christians, and continued pursuing him once they knew that my (then)H wanted to stay in his marriage. I think that's pretty normal.<p>When I was an OW, I was hated by the common-law W of the OM. Normal again. Yeah, it hurt when she called me a whore (and fat, and ugly) but... I DESERVED IT. I put myself in that position by having a relationship with HER man. Plus, *I* was married, and my (then)H had every right to HATE the OM. <p>What don't you understand about that?

Oh, and by the way...<p>I slept with the OM once, and once only. And guess what? I didn't use ANYTHING. <p>I was STUPID, STUPID, STUPID, CARELESS, SELFISH, IDIOTIC, PUT MY LIFE IN DANGER, MY H'S LIFE IN DANGER, MY CHILDREN'S LIVES IN DANGER...<p>I speak from experience, and THANK YOU JESUS!!, I am disease-free, as is my ex and children, and I did not get pregnant.<p>I speak from EXPERIENCE.

bonnie,
i agree...to a point. i do not hate ow. i do not hate h. i do not hate oc. i hate situation. i hate that both h and ow felt it was okay to disrespect a marriage. i hate the secrets. i hate the feelings of betrayal and stupidity. i was told in counseling that anger/hate is a secondary emotion. it means that there is a primary emotion of hurt, frustration, confusion, or uhhhh something else. anyway i related to that. i had a lot of those primarys that showed up as anger/hate. <p>i agree with you that we cannot just blame the ow. our h was/is just as guilty. i also agree that he can't just apologize and think it's done. no under the carpet thing here! apology is a good start though. if it's sincere, then surely actions will follow. but i suppose many women have to deal with a ow who is not remorseful and has not asked forgiveness and possibly is still chasing. it's hard to forgive someone who doesn't think they're wrong. maybe that is one reason why there are so many hard feelings for ow. i don't know. in my case, i don't love her or hate her. i just have to deal with her. some of her past/present actions are despicable, but i hold my h more accountable than her because he made commitment. <p>my feelings for him? well, they vary moment to moment!! i do love him, and thank god he is changing and maturing. but sometimes i find him just as disgusting as when i first found out. i just need to remember to hate the action, not the one who behaves as if he is sorry. my feelings of love were there long before this affair, so they are dominant. and with his desire and actions, we are working through. i won't stay if it happens again...ever. but for now i deal as best i can and only because his behavior shows that he is truly sorry. <p>sometimes i have to pretend that the affair never happened just to speak to him. sometimes i pretend that there is good h and bad h. i am just coping even though this might sound silly. i am trying to do what it takes to get through with my h and a good marriage. i believe that eventually i will be able to deal withhout these silly pretensions, but that's what i do right now. sometimes it is just that i am too hurt to deal with the reality of his affair so i pretend (for a few moments, i'm not delusional i promise) that it never happened. maybe that kind of thing is what other wives do, even if not a conscious action. you know i'm new here so i could be totally clueless. it's just a thought.

In my particular experience, I can honestly say without blinking an eye, I hate my H and I love my H. I stay with him because the Lord God did not release me from my marriage vows..even when H strayed from them.
I knew about OW and H's history before we were married. He was honest about all relationships he has before we married and I didn't care. WE WEREN'T MARRIED THEN. I DO care what happens AFTER we are married and I blame him more for giving in to a moment's pleasure than I do her for pursuing him. She was in love. People do stupid things for love. He discovered he was weak. Thanks to marriage counseling, we were able to discern what led up to it, what the circumstances are surrounding it etc. etc.
I scream at H. I am angry at H. Don't think for a moment that I don't hold him responsible.
But for my sake and that of my children and our marriage, I am putting Dr. Harley's principles into practice...that is no angry outbursts, no disrespectful judgements etc.
I am trying to make my marriage work along with my H who admitted he made a grave mistake.
If he was a serial cheater and this pattern continued, I would have no choice but to leave.
I am honoring God by staying in my marriage and in time with much prayer, counseling and healing, I hope to have my love back for my H. I love my H dearly, but he is responsible for what he did.
Every time he has to tell our four children we can't do something because we don't have the money, he'll be reminded.
Every time he looks at our two year old that we have together, he'll be reminded of the OC who is two weeks older.
That is punishment for a careless ten seconds of pleasure.
I do admire him for his honesty as far as telling me and OW straight out that he could not be involved in oc's life.
Does it stink? Yes it does.
But actions have consequences and we all suffer and we all have to pick up our lives after this.
I am glad you are able to move on and make peace in your life along with your OW.
Some of us haven't reached that level or the Lord doesn't allow it in our lives.
This is my particular experience and I don't speak for anyone else but myself.
Hugs,
Twiisty

Why?<p>Most of us have so much history with our spouses...many, many years of history. In my case, 18 of the 22 years were amazing. My husband was good to me, demonstrative, involved and we were truly one. <p>When he did what he did, there was something missing within himself that had little or nothing to do with me. Perhaps in his confused mind, he needed validation from someone other than myself. He had just experienced a huge trauma in his life that had made him insecure and questioned his qualities. He started drinking again. Hearing from me how wonderful he was every day did not hold the impact it once did...kind of like hearing the same thing all the time looses it's punch. <p>My husband did not have all the coping skills he needed to stay out of trouble because he isn't perfect. No one is, but he deserves my forgiveness after all we have been through together simply because he was remorseful, repentant, desired deeply for another chance and it is far too complicated to just blow off someone you know and have known almost all your life. He was also out of his right mind, too. <p>But, since we had had so many incredible years, had experienced the depth and breadth of life together, ran the high highs and experienced together and survived the low lows, he was worth forgiving and I couldn't stop loving him when he came to me broken and filled with regret and shame and a desire to repair.<p>The OW, on the other hand, was cruel and heartless beyond words. I called her the first week they had met. I found out about her almost immediately, called her, gutted myself and begged her not to see him or talk to him again, explaining that he was emotionally ill, drinking again after all those years of sobriety and his bipolar disease had exacerbated because of it. Her response was absurd, cruel and something you'd expect a junior high school girl to say when she is trying to steal your boyfriend in study hall. She said: "You're just jealous. You're driving him away. Stop calling me and harassing me or I'm gonna kick your [censored]." Charming. There was no compassion. <p>She is getting sued for Personal Injury (mine) and will pay for simply 'not caring' and deliberately hurting an innocent party (me) knowing full well my husband was sick and needed help and was behaving out of character, and for entrapment. I mean, BB, how many 35 year old women don't know how to take care of their bodies and prevent an unwanted pregnancy with a stranger they barely know, unless, of course, this is a deliberate act designed to extract income shares from some chump who isn't thinking right?<p>Regardless, it 'feels' good to hate the OW...it is kind of a catharsis. When one is in a lot of pain, one simply needs to be able to blame someone during the healing process. So this drum that you keep banging needs to be put to rest, BB, because it is human nature to blame the OP and forgive the wayward spouse because there is so much at stake. Years of history. Because this is human nature, there is no need to continually question the obvious because no amount of ramrodding is going to change the reality that:

The husband responsible for this nightmare deeply desires to make amends<p>The OW is often calculating and has such incredible low self she can only get a shred of self worth by temporarily feeling victorious and good about herself if she feels that a man might leave a woman for her...and knows and doesn't care<p>And, finally, it feels good to focus ill feelings on someone who stole form you something so precious when you are feeling so ill about something so traumatic<p>BB, the OW might get a pack of thrills for the moment, but she doesn't get the husband looking deep into here eyes, seeing each others' souls and feeling the depth of being 'one'. Only the wife gets that with her cookie. The OW gets his involuntary muscle spasm that he can accomplish just fine without her with a Penthouse. She is no more than that. And the Betrayed Spouse knows this. She does not like that her husband shared an intimacy with the OW, and is tortured for a time over it because it is something that is supposed to be shared by just them, but sometimes and often, the relationship recovers to the point where the intensity of the feelings in the marriage magnifies to amazing and unusual proportions that neither of them expected. In a perverse way, the wife is begrudginly grateful to the OW to have had her husband compare the negative traits of the OW to the positive traits of the wife and be unceremoniously dumped to come home to the spouse he loves and has shared so much with.<p>Haven't you noticed how much 'less' nearly all of the OW's are in comparison to the wives? That tells me that the 'need' the husband feels at the time has nothing to do with OW or looking for 'quality', just immediate validation. He doesn't really care about the OW...just needs something but isn't quite sure what it is and at the time, seems tolerable enough. Especially on this site. For some reason, the wayward spouses high tail it home when they get the dreaded news that immediately jerks them out of any fog they might be in and back into reality. The trauma of the news is so horrific and ugly, all they want is for life to be as it was. The wife is suddenly so desirable and beautiful and the OW is such a nightmare they can hardly believe what they have done. In fact, my husband said it was like getting drunk and watching the ugly girl across the bar become more attractive as the night goes on only to wake up next to a toad the next morning, wondering what the hell he was thinking.<p>There is really no mystery here, BB. I think we have answered the question you continually ask here and need not bring it up again.<p>So what?<p>Catnip =^^=

Hi everybody,<p>I am new here and have been reading marriage builders for about 2 weeks. My husband had an affair and the OW just had a girl a couple days ago. She lives in Texas and we are in New Jersey.
They met over the internet. We were living in New Mexico and they would meet when I wasn't in town, which wasn't too often but a baby came out of it. <p>I have never felt so much pain and hurt in my life. It honestly feels like a ton of bricks on my heart. We are in counseling.<p>Your words are so comforting and supportive for me.<p>In the beginning, I was so damn anger and I still am but I truly have decided to sit down and be the best I can be. I continue to exercise and keep myself together through all of this...<p>I will keep posting but have to go back to work<p>
Thank you...<p>Yasume

Catnip
You are quite angry indeed. Was your H affair a one night stand? Some women here have H who had long term affairs with more than one child involved. I cannot pass that off as a weak moment, drinking (a poor excuse) or a mistake. A find it insane for a man to willingly carry on an affair, willingly engage in sex that no matter what birth control you use can result in pregnancy, and to turn around and say it was nothing. I also firmly believe that affairs are symptoms of marital problems.

Catnip
I just reread your post. I find it interesting that you regard your H as somehow being "sick" at the time. Seems you don't hold him the least bit accountable. Well, I guess we tell ourselves whatever we have to.

You know what? I, and others (inc. Catnip) thoughtfully answered your query here... and you've ignored everyone but Catnip, and are for some reason, trying to pick a fight with her.<p>Why?

As a former OW I have often wondered the answer to this question as well.<p>I had no idea that this man was involved/engaged. And as soon as I found out I let the relationship go. When his fiance found out that I was pregnant she became obcessed with me. She did everything in her power to ruin my career.<p>In the end I ended up with a MUCH better job. Nearly twice the salary and about 1/2 the hours. She ended up with her H and having a nervour breakdown.<p>What ever happend to "vengence is mine sayeth the lord."<p>I'm not trying to be critical of anyone here. I just wonder.

No reason I have only responded to Catnip except I haven't had time and hers stood as out especially interesting. But I will as soon as i can. Have to take my daughter to dance but will return.

Hello,<p>I would just like to say I agree with aim, I hate the situation also. But, I am not ashamed to admit I have resentment toward ow. I think it's normal. I'm not dwelling on her or feeling sorry for myself, my husband and I have evolved and rebuilt our marriage. I just thank God it's possible. Im happy with my decision and I'm a stronger person because of the choices I've made. A decent ow? Not if she knew the man was married. They both should take the blame, especially if she knew! Just my 2 cents..Thanks.

Hi Katie,<p>I think you are a decent ow... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] but you didn't know so you shouldn't be blamed. What do you tell your child about her father? Is he an active part of the child's life?? Just curious, thanks for sharing..

hi Confused-
I asked that question on the other thread, but will tell you again.<p>My son is 3.5 and doesn't ask about his father. I don't tell him anything right now. There will come a time that he does ask and I will tell him anything that he wants to know.<p>His father has no part in his life.<p>[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: KatieScarlett ]</p>

Confused,
I must add that in the beginning it broke my heart that my son's sperm donor had no part in his life. I thought that our child deserved at least that. Now, I have come to see it as a blessing.<p>It is clear to me that this man can teach my son absolutely NOTHING about character. So I leave him alone and he leaves me alone.

Hi Katie,<p>I am sorry that he chose not to be a part of your son's life. It is his loss not your son's loss.
Affairs hurt everyone involved..I am on the other end of your situation, I am the wife, but I had the decency not to go curse out the ow, I am not in high school. I feel that we're all adults & we must face the consequences. I tried to approach her kindly but she refuses to speak to me, so I just let her be. I did write her a letter and tell her that I feel no animosity toward her or child even though she knew about me..I guess in my heart I wanted an apology?<p>I only told my husband to chose between me and the o/c because it hurt too much. I have a right to my perfect family and so do my kids, if and when oc & ow come, so let it be..I chose to stay w/my h so it's part of the "deal".

KatieScarlett, If ow was like you and didnt know I would have aimed all the anger at my h only. I think I would have even felt sorry for her.
That wasnt the case though she knew all about me and our little girl. She wanted my life and when things were not good between me and h she jumped on the chance to distroy my family. I think it makes me more sad then anything to think a women could do this to another. I get angery when she uses a child to still try to distroy what spreading her legs didnt.
You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders. What you are doing with your child is what we hope someday ow will grow up and do.I to dont see what this man would have to offer your son he sounds like he is real good at decieving people. Hope everything works out for you.
with love flowerseed

Bonniebb,
In reply to your question:<p>I handle h the same way I handle ow and oc and everybody else involved in this sad situation - with dignity and grace. That said, it is not my "job" to like or appreciate or even understand the ow. I did not choose for ow to be part of my life, but I do what I can to rise above the situation and I love oc very much. I do not just "tolerate" oc, as you have suggested that some bs's do. I welcome her wholehearted into my life and want her to be a part of my family. God may not have blessed me with a daughter in the normal sense (I have four sons with h) but he did bless me with one nonetheless.<p>My choice to accept oc is not one that came lightly or without a price, and it is not one that would work for everybody. I have to say, Bonniebb, that I don't see in any one of these women the weakness or niavete that you do. I see courage, compassion, and strength. I see a group of people that I am proud to "know".<p>-cd

>>> But your H, he is as guilty as the OW >>><p>Because my H asked for forgiveness. OW ( obnoxious whore ) did not and feels she has done nothing to be forgiven for.