Catnip and Gem,<p>Thank you so much for your responses to my "crazy" post. I do admit that there were outside factors affecting, as noted in my thread about the special request for Sailorman and the crew of the ship. I am also past that "numb" period that usually lasts about a month after he leaves on deployment, so am feeling all the frustration of him being gone, and having to spend the holidays without him here. <p>I really appriciate your support, and just wanted to thank you both for it. If you haven't done so already, please do read my thread for "Special Prayer request", I put more info about what happened, and the guy who is missing does have children and a wife. It was even on the news last night and this morning here. <p>I don't plan on leaving, and wasn't going to post as often, but you see how that went. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] Oh well, that's Tigger for you.<p>Thanks again,<p>Tigger

Catnip
Re your post about not attacking one another and refraining from sarcasm and the like - great idea, just please make sure you applyit to yourself as well.
Thanks
B

Tigger,
I haven't kept up on this thread because it got so big and didn't have time to read through the whole thing, but for whatever it is worth I just wanted to say that in the beginning when i read that you were the OW, i didn't feel comfortable with it, but you have proven to be a blessing here for us that know you. God has given you a unique gift that many "ow" out there have not been given and that is forgiveness and righteousness. <p>At an early time in my marriage, I too, was having an A and it got ugly and i unknowingly, but knowingly destroyed my marriage and set myself up for what is going on now (h go ow pregnant). He was hurt and turned to ow, I realized what an awful mistake i made too, just like you and turned to God for help. So I know, first-hand how lives can truly be changed. I trust that you are sorry for what you did, I know that i am and will pay for what i did, just like you. Thank you for being the one-in-a million who actually come to see the light, but i guess i should thank God for that. God Bless.<p>
And to whom it may concern,<p>Cucamonga is a city in Southern California, in fact it is where i am staying with my parents right now and where i grew up. Cucamonga is a town that is comprised of 3 cities called Alta Loma (where i live), Rancho Cucamonga and Etiwanda. If any of you are familiar with say...Upland, Claremont, Ontario, Fontana - these are all neighboring cities.<p>God bless,
Julia

Catnip-
Points well taken&#8230;thank-you.
I guess part of my problem (lack of charm) is that I am not easily offended, and I fail to respect that some others are so fragile. It is hard to separate the offender from the offense, but this obviously isn&#8217;t the site to delve into that. I will continue to contest others&#8217; points of view that I vehemently disagree with (as I would expect them to do with me) but I will strive not to make it personal. I have been a bad boy and I will clean up my act because I truly appreciate having found this site to vent some of my frustrations.<p>I have enjoyed reading your well thought-out and insightful posts. I understand and sympathize with all the pain and frustration that the ow (and the system) has caused you and your &#8220;x&#8221; husband. When I read how much C$ she is taking from you, and the ridiculous steps you had to take to avoid paying even more, I was floored. I am so sorry. Please keep msclyde and me informed on how your lawsuit is developing.<p>To Gemini, P51, Tmdt, Jenny, Jtigger, Jules, and Why&#8230;Kudos. IMHO you're all right on top of the issues. I love reading your intelligent replies.

Worsehalf
Just read your email about forced parenthood and laughed so hard I almost fell off my chair. That is too funny. How many men, like the husbands here were raped while they were unconscious. HA HA HA HA HA. TOO FUNNY! If they could use that excuse, they would. Thanks for the laugh. I needed that. HA HA HA. Can't stop laughing. Man, what we women do to excuse our men's behaviors.

Thanks for the post Pops.....I sure can relate to your emotions.

Dear Worsehalf<p>I am delighted you are on this site. Like you, I also have a tough shell and can take the heat pretty well, but that came with age and overcoming my demons. I was once extremely fragile, so I just understand those who are.<p>Regardless, there are exceptions to decorum as we do have a trouble maker amongst us. Many of us have reached out with kindness to no avail so now all bets are off. It's been going on for months. My advice to you, if you can, is to not respond to the bait. She or he is obviously bored, has a lot of time on his/her hands and gets off on attacking the people here. This person is an expert at button pushing, so I'll give them that, but try to ignore. Trust me, you cannot get through.<p>This is a site, I believe, divinely inspired. It saved my life three years ago and I know it can save yours and your marriage. And, Ms Clyde...to actually have your husband a part of this site as the WS, posting and seeking counsel, will give you both a solid foundation for recovery. I wish my husband would have been able to post and search for his peace here...perhaps the recovery wouldn't have been so rocky. Perhaps he would have learned to forgive himself sooner knowing he wasn't alone.<p>I hate to say welocme to our sad little group, but you are in the right place and I know if you follow the Harley principles, rules of honesty and protection and commit to a Policy of Joint Agreement, you will be well on your way to retoring your marriage. We also have a member who posts occasionally who is committed to fighting for just and reasonable support laws.<p>Stay tuned<p>Catnip =^^=

Admittedly I know very little about CS laws, but I have a question that might apply to those of you who still have children yourselves (not OC)<p>Example: Joe and Mary are married, have a 7 (Bobby) and a 9 (Billy) year old. Joe has an affair and gets Cindy preg. Cindy goes to court and wins half of Joes income for child support.<p>Obviously this has a HUGE impact on Mary, Bobby and Billy.<p>My question is this: Could Mary divorce Joe, and get a child support ruling that would give more of his income to Mary than to Cindy????<p>Nobody has to know that Joe and Mary are "divorced". Joe Mary and Bobby and Billy still live together. If Mary is given custody, and Joe doesn't contest it, the courts are then out of the picture right? But Cindy gets a much smaller piece of the money pie.<p>Does Child Support go by ages of the children? Or just who filed first?<p>Surely this kind of situation must have happened. Maybe Joe and Mary divorced for real somewhere. What happens then??

Lexxxy<p>The scenario you described is a reality for one of our members and is working very well. If more people in this situation would follow that path, the couple would have the financial pressure taken off of them and they would be able to focus on restoring the marriage. Incentive for OP's to go after huge income shares would decrease.<p>Another member (me) divorced just to be able to retain assets (house) without having the OW impose liens against the equity to take care of outrageous arrears and payments.<p>We all do what we must do.<p>Catnip =^^=

Tigger-<p>You are right, I didn&#8217;t, nor will I ever know, the full story. I do know that you are in an awful position. If this om is abusive then you&#8217;re justified in not wanting any part of him in your or the oc&#8217;s life. My point is that abusing the unequal family law system is not the right remedy. (Insert old cliché: two wrongs don&#8217;t make a right.) Treating this scumbag as if he has no reproductive rights would certainly be your easiest option, but remember that you alone had the legal right to choose to have and keep Abbi. The reality is that taking this responsibility has attached this butt-head to you and yours. You do have other legal options (i.e. restraining orders, criminal prosecution, anti-stalking laws, etc.) that relate directly to the true problem at hand, which is his abusiveness. Hopefully you are pursuing these options regardless of his parental (lack-of) rights. <p>
Pops and Full House-<p>I understand fully that you are both suffering, and though I&#8217;ve been crass, I am sorry that you have found yourselves in this horrible situation.<p>FH-
It did take allot of courage to post a different point of view, and for that I commend you. I hope that you will continue to take part in these discussions. I hope that you and Pops will find the strength to make it through this. To say that the options you're left with are unenviable is a gross understatement. <p>Pops-<p>If this om is as obtuse as you say, then I don&#8217;t blame you one bit for wanting him to suffer. He sounds like an absolute jerk-off. Since he did voice his desire to not abort the pregnancy, and he did say he would pay for it, then getting C$ from him is obviously a fair option. Where did this idiot come from? I was wrong to just assume that it was a forced paternity situation that you wanted to screw him with, and I&#8217;m sure I made several erroneous statements regarding this. I apologize. There is no question that you are an innocent victim of what is happening around you.<p>Regarding your questions about forced fatherhood&#8230;Pops wrote:<p>&#8220;your comments about forced parenthood and men should have the right to choose to be a parent or not kind of amaze me.&#8221;<p> It amazes me that society refuses to acknowledge the discrimination of men (illegal under the 14th Amendment, which guaranties equal treatment under the law regardless of race, sex, etc) that occurs in our family law courts. <p>&#8220;i may be assuming here but how exactly is that supposed to work? a man can be married and go outside of that marriage to knock out a little strange with any woman he finds available and because neither uses protection and HE chooses not to be a parent he forces her to have an abortion.&#8221;&#8221;<p>Doing away with discrimination has nothing to do with being unfaithful, or with both parties being responsible for there own protection. Should om be able to force ow to abort? No, but he should have the same legal choice that the ow had to not be a parent&#8230;i.e. not be forced by our government to support a child he did not choose to have. A &#8220;paper abortion&#8221; if you will. The law certainly doesn&#8217;t force a woman to keep her child(Roe v. Wade). <p>&#8220;great idea and maybe all cheating men should just carry a small black medical bag with them instead of CONDOMS!!!&#8221;

The way it stands now, the man should carry along the title to his home in that little black bag! <p>&#8220;&#8220;how about this for choosing not to become an unwanted parent, the next time a man gets the urge to purge somewhere else other then with his wife he simply goes to the mens room and spanks his monkey alone.&#8221;<p>Once again, infidelity (or the &#8220;urge to purge&#8221 [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] is not the point here. Infidelity is wrong, but not illegal. Discrimination is wrong, and it&#8217;s illegal. (Spankin&#8217; the monkey is not wrong, and it&#8217;s not illegal&#8230;.hmmm, maybe you&#8217;re onto something there!)<p>&#8220; i ahave never heard a more myopic view in my life.&#8221;&#8221;<p>Good word, myopic, I had to look it up&#8230;it means &#8216;lack of foresight.&#8217; To the contrary, our C$ laws are based on archaic principles, such as the idea that biology is destiny and that women are the &#8216;weaker-sex.&#8217; As has been stated on here before, the laws have always been behind the times&#8230;forcing them to catch up takes sagacity (yes, I had to go to thesaurus for that one.)<p>A web site devoted to this forced parenthood concept can be found at the lc4m web site that Msclyde posted earlier.

Tigger does not have to justify or excuse protecting her marriage and her child. <p>In her case the end justifies the means; I don't think she should go the legal route in regards to the biofather and his "rights". I have already stated, as wh- did, that the laws are behind the current situations, so Tigger participating in legal proceedings against biofather would not be to any benefit. <p>Laws provide due process for justice, theoretically. Sometimes just the opposite happens: Law takes precedence over common sense. Let some common sense reign, for those who have some. <p>There will always be individuals who milk systems to their own advantage to others' detriments.

AHHHH!! Jenny, could you let our MARRIED ow know what she's in for? I mean to persue cs from us while she's married.....or doesn't it matter?<p>We've decided to have her H do a paternity test too. We're proposing it anyway. We are asking him for a denial of paternity.<p>He already refused my H's offer of adoption[to ow's h ]but choose to give baby his family name. My point is will a court still force a cs payment to them, from us, if they're married? Maybe they won't do anything because of community embarrassment. I don't know but it's worth a try.<p>Any one know?<p>Thanks Worsehalf for the compliment. I think you've sparked a whole new way for us to think. I love the web site Msclyde directed us to.
love
Debi<p>[ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</p>

Anyone watch "Primetime" tonight? Want to talk about a bunch of BS!!!! Three couples (the part that I caught) Two married, women strayed, baby conceived. Husbands raising children as their own and decide to check for paternity. Neither baby is the husbands. One couple takes tigger's route...raise child as theirs anyway. The other wife decides she is now going to sue OM for CS but still raise OC with her H. They had been surviving without CS up til this point!!! She even says and I quote "I love to spend money on my kids"!!!
Finally third couple...woman has fling with man (both unmarried) at the time. Woman says later she is preg. and he is the father. He vacillates for the first 4 months of child's life about being involved...decides not to be. She comes after him when the child is 3 and wants CS. He is ordered to pay and $26,000 in arrears just before his wedding to another woman. Finally, his current wife encourages DNA. Turns out child is NOT his. Courts say too bad so sad you are the only father of record so you will continue to have your wages garnished for the next 10 years....
LADIES AND GENTLEMAN....WE HAVE A PROBLEM!!!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

Ok, I know Im supposed to be on leave, but I had to add.<p>Other than the one particular poster this whole LONG post was done well. I commend everyone.<p>Worsehalf,<p>Great job on making up for the brashness! I think you have some great points.<p>As for Tigger's situation....you have every right the think om should know (and if Tigger wasnt married and this guy not dangerous I would agree).<p>But Tigger's priorities are with her marriage and if I had a choice I would rather ow/oc not be around at all. In this case they have that choice....I say take it.<p>But I agree the laws are totally unfair and in the least chould be adjusted. I dont see how any "judge" could award 1300 or 1700 a month for a child. That is ridiculous! Do I think they will be changed to be undiscriminate? No. It is a very unpopular decision for them to make and politically it will be suicide for congress. Although I pray it will happen.<p>Well, through typing this I have been chatting and kicked off the internet for a while. Now I cant recall what all I was going to say, so I guess this will be it for a while.<p>Dr appt on the 6th. Please keep me in your prayers. I am kinda nervous about all this....<p>Love all yall.<p>bw

tryin4sainthood wrote:<p>"Finally third couple...woman has fling with man (both unmarried) at the time. Woman says later she is preg. and he is the father. He vacillates for the first 4 months of child's life about being involved...decides not to be. She comes after him when the child is 3 and wants CS. He is ordered to pay and $26,000 in arrears just before his wedding to another woman. Finally, his current wife encourages DNA. Turns out child is NOT his. Courts say too bad so sad you are the only father of record so you will continue to have your wages garnished for the next 10 years....
LADIES AND GENTLEMAN....WE HAVE A PROBLEM!!!!!" <p>
Unbelievable but true. For decades, any man who 'acted like' the father (ordered to pay C$ or otherwise) was forced into paternity even when the woman was proven to have knowingly lied to the man about paternity. In most states this is still the case. Fortunately, paternity fraud is the one front where family law is starting to change. It's too little and far too late for many, but a few states are currently passing laws that make paternity fraud a way out of paying C$. As far as I know, it is not a 'crime' (since when is fraud not a crime?)so retribution isn't given. <p>I hear that congress, in a lame attempt to justify these inequities, is going to change the last line of the Pledge of Allegiance to, "...One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for half."<p>[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: worsehalf ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by worsehalf:
<strong>Finally, his current wife encourages DNA. Turns out child is NOT his. Courts say too bad so sad you are the only father of record so you will continue to have your wages garnished for the next 10 years....
LADIES AND GENTLEMAN....WE HAVE A PROBLEM!!!!!" <p>but a few states are currently passing laws that make paternity fraud a way out of paying C$. As far as I know, it is not a 'crime' (since when is fraud not a crime?)so retribution isn't given. <p>I hear that congress, in a lame attempt to justify these inequities, is going to change the last line of the Pledge of Allegiance to, "...One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for half."<p>[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: worsehalf ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I wish I could get ahold of Bystander...he'd love to get into the mix about all this. <p>One of his favorite stories is of a woman who had oral sex with a man, excused herself into the bathroom, carrying his semen in her mouth and impregnated herself with a turkey baster. When the unsuspecting man was hauled into court for paternity nine months later, he vehemently denied that intercourse took place and that paternity was absolutely impossible. DNA results came back positive. The woman was awarded 18 years of hefty extortion from the shell shocked man and even after the courts found out what she did, it made no difference. He and a third of his salary were sentenced to 18 years nailed to the Income Shares Cross. <p>Some people go to extraordinary lengths to get on the gravy train.<p>The 'new' Pledge of Allegiance...hahaha...sigh. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.<p>Thanks for the enlightening post.<p>Catnip =^^=

Incredible story Catnip. I also wish Bystander would throw his wisdom into the mix.<p>Bw good luck at the Dr's. I pray all will be fine.<p>Now for the "Pledge".....lol.....good "letter to the editor" material! <p>love
Debi

worsehalf, there is no need to appoligize. your resentment of your personal situation is very understandable along with some of the others i have read here. again i no exactly what it feels like to be forced into cs payments as i finished paying my dues 9 yrs ago for my oldest son. i do however think that the courts have already found the common thread (sagacity) in their own minds and that thread is the protection of the child. what they really need to look for are the quiddities in each individual case before them.
i personally don't see how these laws will ever change as it would give men a "hey what are you looking at me for defense" and mean that they don't have to be responsible for their actions. let me use this scenario: it is not illegal to own and have a loaded weapon in your own home. so if a child finds that weapon even though you may have had it put away (but you know kids, their snoopy). plays with this weapon and accidentily injures himself or a friend you are still held responsible. the point being responsibility has to come before the act and has nothing to do with an affair being legal or not.
in the case that was mentioned about going after the wrong father 3 yrs later i have just 2 questions. what state? & how long did the poor man stay in the position as a father? the reason i ask these questions is that they are 2 of my own concerns. we live in ca. and in this state when a child is born to a married woman her husband is presumed the father and becomes legally responsible for the child if he does NOT contest before a period of 2 yrs. and it does NOT matter to the courts if he proves through dna testing that he is not the father after that 2 yr time limit. and i agree this is a gross misuse of judicial power because it means that if a woman can lie to her husband long enough, he's stuck legally for cs for the remaining 16 yrs.