Well,
We had one of what we hope will be the last days in court. The permanent support hearing was Monday. The bad news is that the support amount won't change. This is because the temporary amount reflects a much lower monthly income amount for my H. If the judge were to take the latest last three stubs into account we would have been out about 200 more bucks per month. SO, we get to pay her 200 per week for cs….but the good news is this….the judge also ruled on a temporary visitation schedule. <p>At our last mediation session, the xow proposed some ridiculous visitation schedule that centered around HER work schedule as a flight attendant. In her proposal, she suggested three months supervised visitation (with a 16 month old). Needless to say, I told her 'Try again'.<p>Well she had the audacity to bring up the same stupid proposal in front of a judge that JUST FINISHED ordering my H to pay that high CS amount. The judge flat out told her 'You're lucky he's not requesting sole custody because he'd have a good chance at getting it'. He also stated that he could rule that the custody be shared as opposed to visitation. This is opening the door for us to get more time with the baby AND eventually pay a whole lot less in CS.
Furthermore, the judge ordered that this Saturday and next will be two hours of supervised visitation (whether her schedule allowed her to be there or not). In other words, whoever she leaves the baby with must be there to supervise the visit. (I HOPE SHE HAS TO WORK SATURDAY). After that, the following two Saturdays are two hours unsupervised and the following two Saturdays are four hours unsupervised.<p>We are seriously thinking about requesting sole custody and ALLOWING her visitation (as long as she pays US CHILD SUPPORT). HOW'S THAT FOR TURNING THE TABLES?????

Matthew,<p>I am new to the boards and I also am a ow with a child. I have not read any of your other posts but would like to ask you a question. I too am dealing with my childs father and his wife and visitation right now, they came back into our lives a year ago for visitation(the last time he saw my daughter was when she was 2 she is now 7. I am married and also have two older daughters with my husband of 21 years)
My question is do you want this child in your life? Can you as the bw take this child into your heart? I struggle with this daily and wonder if my childs father and his wife are doing this out of spite or if it is out of love. I have had a few conversations with her and it always ends up about the past not the present and I wonder why she wants me and my daughter in her life for the next 10 years as there is still a lot of bitterness (yes she has every right but I did not ask them to invite me and my daughter back into their lives). Any insight would be helpful.
Thank you

Choices Made<p>May I ask if you receive Child Support from your former MM and his W, and what the amount is?<p>I ask because if they are paying support, especially if it is an inordinant amount, they feel entitled to have contact.<p>I can only assume that in cases such as yours, the former MM and his W desire visitation for a number of reasons...not just one, being of love or spite, but of love and perhaps, entitlement.<p>In complex situations like this, I can only assume that the former MM and his W have many, many reasons for wanting contact. Love, concern, guilt, feeling obligated, feeling perhaps they can add something wonderful, and yes, some times a measure of selfish/selfless entitlement, depending on your point of view.<p>Catnip =^^=<p>[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: catnip ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Matthew6:14,15:
<strong>Well,
The bad news is that the support amount won't change. This is because the temporary amount reflects a much lower monthly income amount for my H. If the judge were to take the latest last three stubs into account we would have been out about 200 more bucks per month. SO, we get to pay her 200 per week for cs&#8230;.but the good news is this&#8230;.the judge also ruled on a temporary visitation schedule. <p>We are seriously thinking about requesting sole custody and ALLOWING her visitation (as long as she pays US CHILD SUPPORT). HOW'S THAT FOR TURNING THE TABLES?????</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hey, Matthew...<p>Where's the downside here? I don't see the bad news here if the judge ordered on your husband's income according to a lesser amount. I'd be dancing in the streets. I say to you and your H an enormous congratulations and for me...if only...<p>I know you're angry (and justifiably so) but what are your motives for wanting full custody besides having the XOW pay you child support?<p>I sincerely hope you take into consideration the immense responsibility that comes with taking care of a child and their physical and emotional needs. Not to mention dealing with the horror of how this child came into being.<p>Also remember that the majority of the care of a child is largely left to the wife, regardless whether or not both spouses work, and fathers (sorry to generalize here to the outstanding INVOLVED dads) are often removed, uninvolved, and out of touch with the things "moms" feel important.<p>Be careful what you wish for...<p>Catnip =^^=

Catnip,<p>Yes he does pay cs, it's $290 a month. Is that a lot? I don't know if it is or not nor do I plan on taking him back to have it adjusted it's just what we agreed on 5 years ago.
His wife has been very good to my daughter and I have no doubt that she treats her well. I have thanked her more than once. But it confuses me as to why she continually brings up the past when we can't do anything about it and we need to focus on the now and how to ensure this little girl has a healthy childhood from here forward. Should I meet with her one on one and find out what is really bothering her? I really can't take the bashing anymore.

Matt,<p>I agree with Catnip make sure you know what your reason are before taking on the responsibility of another child. I would seek joint custody. If you get close to OC exOW can't just up and take her away from you and H. H and I agreed when or if he seeks contact, he will seek joint custody which should be easy for us since exOW lost custody of her other three children because of her neglecting them. If I was vindictive I would go after full custody (Please don't think I'm saying you are) but I don't want the responsibility of raising someone else's child on a FT basis. I feel for OC and pray and hope exOW has changed but I'm putting my family first. If you have joint custody your CS amount will go down at least that's how it is in the state of CT where I live. Good luck and pray! That's the only way to know your making the right choice and decisions. I'm glad things worked out for you in court.<p>
Choicesmade,<p>xMM wife is still hurting about the affair. I don't know the circumstances but if you were a friend of her at the time of course she still in pain. Even though she treats your daughter well she's a living reminder of the affair. $290 a month is not a lot to people who are making a lot of money, but if you are making minimum wage then yes it's a lot of money. Maybe that's a factor in why she treats you the way she does and keep bringing up the past. I know I couldn't forgive an ex friend of mine if they were taking food out of my children's mouth. (Not saying that's the case but these are things you need to think about)
Good luck and be grateful xMMW treats your daughter well.<p>
Unsure

Hey there!I'm glad to hear that the judge took you into consideration in the visitation schedual. It's funny how these women get themselves into these situations and then want others to accomodate thier needs. How do you think she would respond to a request for sole custody? I agree with that it would mean a great responsibility, but as long as you talk it thru it is definately an option. How does your H feel about the idea?
I am sorry to hear about the astronomical support you have to pay. But I guess it could have been worse. I know that hearing that doesn't soften the blow of the decision, but if reevaluation would have meant a higher payment, maybe that could be a way of softening the blow every month(week) you have to pay it.
Keep in touch.
NGU

Unsure,<p>Thanks for the reply, no she was not a friend of mine, as for the child support, his yearly income alone is over $55,000 a year so hardly minimum. Paying support was his decision, I didn't want it but I am sure it is a sore spot anyhow as it has been mentioned a time or two. <p>Thanks again

choices made., Your child is a living reminder to the wife of the betrayal you and her H perpetrated on her. I doubt that will ever go away for her . You may believe your child is innocent, and certainly she is, but for us in this situation, the betrayed spouse, the child embodies the worst of any affair imaginable. The past is never over, because the child exists.You should consider yourself lucky the wife is kind to your child, but gee, how do you explain to your daughter who these people are to her? Does she know she is product of affair, unlike your other two children? HOw does your H feel about contact with the MM and his family you had A with? How does that work? As for me, I cannot bear even to hear the OC's name in my situation-it tears at my heart like someone ripping out my soul. THat is probably the pain you hear on wife's voice, the past recurs because it never goes away. I wish all you well, I hope you answer my questions.

Sickwithsadness,
Thank you for your reply and your honesty. No this is not easy on any of us and I am sure that the contact between me and the om is hard on my H but that is why I try to always include him in conversations whether it be by phone or in person. As for explaining to my daughter, at 7 you really can't get into the birds and the bees (thank goodness) but I am grateful that me and my husband have always been upfront with her about her real dad. She did have contact with him up until she was 2 then he disappeared until she was 6, she didn't forget him and asked where he was here and there over those 4 years so explaining who he is hasn't been a problem and she was so excited to see him when they reconnected last year. As for the future, I don't know, what do you say? How do you explain it? Will she be a bitter teenager? I don't know, I can just do the best I can in making sure she knows she is loved (and she is). She does know she is different from her 2 sisters in the fact that now that he has re-entered her life she has two families and this is hard on her, she says all the time she wishes she only had one. Do I wish I had made different choices 7 years ago? Yes but only in telling the om, I would still have had my daughter. Hind sight is 20/20 and there are a lot of things I would do differently but I can only go forward from here.
As for the bw, like I said I didn't ask for them to come back into my life a year ago after being gone for 4 years, yes I could have fought it in court as far as visitation but both me and my H felt it would be in my daughters best interest (again a hindsight error)to renew the contact and for the most part it has gone well but the problem I am having is the bw acting like this is my fault that she has to deal/talk with me when it was her and the om that re-entered my life and my families life and has caused major disruptions all over again. Your points made have helped and no this will never be over for any of us, I made some poor choices as did the om 7 years ago and I wish I could undo them but I can't.
It's not an easy situation for anyone and yes the child is a haunting reminder of errors made whether you are the om, ow, bw or bh, that I can't deny.
I too am sorry for the pain that you are going through and wish you and your family the best also...

Matthew6:14,15,
I was wondering why the judge seems think that you could get sole custody?<p>Dawn

Choicesmade, I am the BS, the W. If you are sincere in the welfare of your OC, have you ever considered asking MM and his wife to sign off all rights by agreeing to no more CS? Would your H agree to adopt OC?<p>ember

My husband would adopt in a heartbeat but it is not an option with biodad nor will it ever be, I wish though..
Thank you for asking..

Matthew,
going for custody is a very prayerful issue. I know you would take honest comparison of XOW's parenting compared to your own, taking into consideration the OC's feelings and attachment (or lack of) to his mother. <p>I honestly believe H and I would be better parents to OC, but not to the extent that I feel we should go for custody, because I also believe XOW isn't bad ENOUGH to warrent it, as it would hurt the OC to be taken away long distance, if the judge would even agree. It would cost everyone in our case considerable expense and grief.<p>Let everything we do be done in Love, as much as humanly possible. <p>Choicesmade, it is the case in some situations that the XOW is more psychologically sound that the MM and/or his wife. I do not know if that applies to your situation, but it's possible. As far as her reaction... Did you know that OM was married during your affair with him? Have you ever apologized to the Wife for the pain you've help cause her (and her children)? Has OM ever apologized to your husband? Do you see where I'm going with this? When people are hurt this deeply, it doesn't go away easily and often helps to acknowledge the pain and remorse. Probably her H, like mine, has apologized to her several times over, but you have not, and she has this constant painful reminder of the OC and ch-support in her life. <p>Personally, I think your daughter would be better off with, as she said "one family"(!!), and I know you said it was XOM/W's idea to put themselves back into her life. It's difficult to say why. Maybe the biodad couldn't live with the guilt of "abandoning" OC and pressured his wife into agreeing with contact, or maybe it irked them to pay support for a child they didn't see (would relieving them of Ch-support help them agree to let your H adopt?!). It appears that Wife does not hold things against the child, and that is good. <p>Just my 2 cents,
Jenny
in recovery 3 years<p>[ December 02, 2001: Message edited by: Jenny ]</p>

I am a BS and we have joint custody of OC. I hold absolutely no ill will toward OC. I do however hate the fact that the exOW comes with the package. Would I like full custody? No, I believe OC needs his mother also. Yes, OC is a constant reminder, but we are also buddies because we are the victims here. <p>I am sure that if wife reluctantly agreed to visitation, she is uncomfortable with you. She may very well be fine with your daughter, but you threatened her marriage, not your daughter. You were gone, now your back. Granted this was their choice, but that doesnt mean that the choice was easy. All the feelings she thought she was over, are back. As fresh and as raw as they were when she first found out. Give her time. Be patient. <p>And, yes, maybe acknowledge that she is in pain and that you are part of that. Reassure her if you can that you are doing this for your daughter. That it is the right thing to do...for your daughter. <p>Just curious, how long has it been since they reentered your daughter's life?

Sorry,
forgot to address my post to choicesmade.

Oops,<p>I forgot to write this post and review it an hour or two later before I posted to make sure it wasn't too strong for this message board. I posted that message out of anger and frustration with a slow court system and a reluctant xow/oc's mom that thinks my H and I should take things slow enough for her benefit, not the child's. Let me give a little history lesson for those of you that either don't know or have forgotten our situation.<p>Abandoning the baby was an option for my husband for maybe the total time span of a week. My H is not that type of man, and I'm not the type of woman to make him choose. I'm not saying that betrayed spouses that make their ws choose are wrong. I'm saying that's not how we operate. And as its been stated before over and over again on this board, every situation is different, so please let's not open that can of worms again.<p>We decided we'd try to not only mend our marriage, but also do the responsible thing and take care of an innocent child that didn't' ask for any of this. But shortly after giving birth, communication with the xow broke down fairly easily. Her first letter to my H was…'I had the baby, if you're going to be a part of her life, then so is your wife' immediately followed by…'You hurt me and made my life a nightmare yada yada yada.' Right from the beginning she made this about her pain and discomfort and from that point on she played manipulation games. She threatened to take my H to child support enforcement, but didn't follow through. She insisted on controlling how the whole scenario would play out from the get go. She thought we'd go along to get along just to keep from having to pay what everyone knew would be an arm and a leg for some DNA.
To make a long, all-too-often-told story short, WE filed for child support and visitation rights through the courts and as a result, she jumped on the defensive quick fast and in a hurry.<p>Fast forward to court last Monday, I have to admit it felt wonderful to have the judge help her understand that just because she gave birth to a child, did not mean she could control that child's relationship with her father. She most certainly can and will have input, but not full and total control. <p>To sum all of the anger and frustration up from the previous post, we went through pure -dee hell to do right by a child when a lot of fathers would and could have EASILY walked right out of her life and as a result, not giving her a legacy, validation, and yes the love every child needs from their parents. Her mother, at every step of the way insisted on being part of the visits, even when she was a tiny newborn. We understood and respected the attachment of mother and child and even went as far to suggest that she be 'in the area' to monitor visitation, but not in our immediate space but she could not 'allow' that because she didn't want the baby to experience 'discomfort'. That was a load of crap, she just felt threatened by my H and I developing a bond with the baby. Simple as that. But how dog gone selfish can one person be?????? She created the very discomfort she didn't want to experience and now we were supposed to accommodate her needs??? The way we see it is this….my husband created a gaping wound in our marriage and also exposed us financially to the tune of 800.00 per month. That's called CONSEQUENCE and responsibility. Now, it's her turn to accept hers.<p>My post was a post of anger and relief and frustration and bitterness and aggravation and celebration all wrapped into one nice neat little bow. Yes, there was anger there, but we took the high road and went to the courts for relief from this nightmare in November 2000. My husband has just now been validated by the court system as an adequate and interested parent. Do you know how good it feels to be vindicated in some sense? It feels great to know that our efforts were not in vain and we will have a chance to make this baby a part of our lives. And yes, I'm angry that her emotionally crippled mother didn't give a crap about the entire situation. All she cared about was making this as painless as possible for herself. She couldn't and still cant' stand the thought of her daughter having a healthy relationship with her father and his wife. <p>Now, here's where we stand on visitation and custody….<p>We wouldn't dream of arbitrarily asking for custody of the baby. Her mom seems to do a great job at raising her. She has what seems to be a strong bond with her extended family on her mother's side. There's no reason to consider it at this point. BUT, what the judge did in court on Monday was to make it clear to her that the baby has the right to establish the same type of relationship with her father's side of the family INDEPENDENT OF HER MOTHER'S INVOLVMENT. And that because my husband chose to take that right and responsibility seriously, the judge would do what he had the power to do to enforce the CHILD'S rights and the rights of her non-custodial parent, my H. Joint custody MAY be an option because of her career choice. She's a flight attendant and gone often on weekends. And for the most part, she'd been relying on her mom and dad and aunts and uncles to take care of the baby while she was gone. This may change and my H will ask that when she's out of town, that HE be the person to take care of his daughter. Not her aunts, uncles and grandparents which is how it should have been from the get go since my husband expressed interest and intent in being a part of the baby's life. Her family will have to adjust to not being the 'other parent', but they have their daughter/niece to thank for that.<p>We know we have some more bleeding days ahead with the adjustment we'll make for what may turn out to be frequent visitations. We know we have the awkward family reunions and curious friends wondering who the sweet little girl is playing with our son. But we'll have to get through those days just like we made it this far, with prayer and communication. <p>I've accepted the fact that her mother is who she is. I even accept and appreciate the fact that when she's in our care, she may need to still feel connected to her mom. I wouldn't dream of making her life a nightmare by making her choose who she can love based on where she is on any given day. My heart doesn't operate that way. In the strangest sense, I feel like I'll be the one mediating and protecting her from her biological parents sense of guilt and self-disgust. Yes, I know I'll probably be the primary nurturer at first because my husband is still having a hard time bonding with her firstly because of the lack of time, but secondly, and probably more importantly, he'll have a hard time because he'll have to recall the dereliction an desperation that got her here.<p>I got to get to work…..sorry for the long post, but I'll check back later.<p>With love,<p>Mat

Matthew,<p>I didn't think your post was too strong. I think everyone just wanted to make sure you didn't react
while you were angry and get yourself in a situation that you aren't prepared for. (Full custody) I can relate 100% with your post today. I feel exactly the same way you do. I also never made my H choose if anything I was pushing to have contact thinking that's what he wanted. I also know there will be awkward moments when people will wonder who OC is. She's 5 days short of being 9 month younger than my 20-month-old daughter is. But I was willing to deal with the questions.

exOW made it impossible for H and I to be a part of OC life without incurring huge legal fees we can't afford right now. She doesn't want me to be involved in her D's life. So I know it feels good to have the court system let her know she doesn't have a right to tell your H when and where he will see OC. And it made her realize he has legal rights too. <p>I would seek and go after joint custody. My H and I are taking it slow, I know inside he wants to be a part of OC's life so I'm going to support him. He knows we have to do this together as a family.
He decided not to have contact a few months ago because exOW went on a campaign to make me look like the crazy betrayed wife who's out to get her. This after I had an 2 1/2 hr conversation with her and listen to her tell me she's in love with my H. I never called her a name (to her face anyway [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) I have only flipped out on her once when she physically tried to attack me.
Also by getting joint custody exOW can't refuse to leave OC with H when she out of town. It's just something to think about. Good luck I think you are handling this horrible situation we find ourselves in great.<p>
Unsure