I justed wanted to say as a new person here that I am so thankful for finding this forum...I have been married for 12 1/2 years with 3 children and now I am dealing with a 4 month old stepson from my H's affair with OW. I really was beginning to believe that I was the ONLY person on the planet that this was happening to. My H and I have been working on our marriage for the past 8 months and it has been so diffucult. He is a very dedicated dad to all of his children and the contact with her is very diffucult for me. He would never go back to her that is not an issue anymore but dealing with her is. Shewill not allow the baby to be around me even though she agrees that I am a wonderful mom to our 3 children. How do you Deal with your H's OW if you are in this situation!? Thank you for being here.<p>Linda<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Lindaloo ]</p>

That is tough because Dr.Harley recommends that the BS be the go-between for visits with OC's... It's tough when emotions are flying out of control and imaginations running wild.<p>MY guess is that OW is afraid that you would harm her child because of any resentment you may feel toward her.<p>MY guess is that she wouldn't even want her baby to sense the slightest rejection from you even if it is never verbally expressed. Kids can sense it, especially babies.<p>Children are very sensitive and vulnerable and I have read where they can even sense rejection in the womb. I don't know if that is true, but if I was afraid for my kid to be around someone, I would have to go with my gut. And we moms have all experienced that feeling at one time or another. So you can understand...<p>She probably has a gut instinct like all moms do. Either that, or she feels so guilty for the pain she has caused you and just wants to avoid you altogether out of shame???<p>I could be wrong because I don't know her or you or the full story, but just making some guesses and trying to help you sort out the mess you are in.<p>Maybe she even feels threatened by you as you are in a situation to be a much better mom than she is. Maybe she thinks you might try to take custody of her kid?<p>It's just such a negative situation and maybe she is just trying to avoid any conflicts. (??)<p>Whatever you decide, try not to jump to conclusions based on MY speculation. What if you have a talk with her? She is being unreasonable. I mean, if you are going to be involved in the OC's life, then this affects your marriage and OW is being totally unreasonable if she thinks your husband's involvement with OC doesn't directly affect YOU!

Hi loo,<p>I'm not sure I understand your post....you said she won't "allow" you to have contact w/ the baby. What I don't understand is that what makes her think she has a choice? She has no choices in how her child is raised when w/ the dad...pls explain.
MM

Lindaloo:<p>If paternity tests have been done, and your husband has been found to be the father and he's currently paying child support---there's really not a whole lot she can do about you being involved. I don't suggest that you first try to work this out in court---but legally, unless she could prove otherwise, you would not be excluded from this child's life.<p>Has paternity been legally established?

I know that this question was asked of BS's but I may be able to provide a bit of insight.<p>You may do well to talk to TOW (if you can) to find out what her fears are. I know that my son's father is in a long term relationship with a woman that I know (really, really long story). I know her to be a kind and caring mother. HOWEVER, I would NEVER allow my son to be around her without first having a VERY long talk with her. I have no idea what her motives are. She's great to her kids, but I dont know how she would be with mine.<p>Our situation was so crazy and hurtful that I fear that seeing my son would just be too painful for her. In my opinion, there is no reason to expose my son to all of that adult tension - even if his father is there.

Katie,
I know you were replying to Lindaloo...but I have some questions that maybe you could give me some insight, and as a result, healing...<p>I don't understand how the xow has a choice in who sees her child. She didn't really think about and carefully plan who would be the committed and loving man to father her children. She indiscriminately procreated with someone that could not offer her the security she NOW SEES her child deserves (at least in my case).
As a new mom of an adopted baby, I understand the threat that exists knowing there's another woman out there that may have some type of large influence over your child. But in situations where you CHOOSE BY WAY OF YOUR ACTIONS the very thing you're afraid, how, and better yet, why should this man's wife accommadate the xow?<p>I'm venting, and I'm truly sorry if I come of mean-spirited, but either way, the way I see it, the xow has very little control over what goes on with dad's world. If she feels the child will be treated poorly by the wife then perhaps supervised visitation is in order. But if the wife has given her no indication that the child would be treated poorly then what????
To tell the truth, sometimes I think what may be happening is that the child's mom may feel threatened by the fact that this woman could really open up her heart and accept the oc regardless of how the child was conceived.<p>I mean really...is it insecurity or fear for the child's safety...or maybe both???<p>Sorry...I just feel very strongly that if she knowingly created a child with someone that could not offer her and her child the security deserved, then she has to face the consequences...as harsh as they may seem. Maternal instinct be da$*d<p>In total sincerity....please help me reconcile this fact so that I can heal. I need to see/hear things from your point of view!!!

Ok, i'm definately feeling the heat of a flame in that last question, but i'm a big girl.<p>I can't speak for all OW that are mothers, and I understand that situation that i'm in is not the norm. Let me begin by telling you the CLiff Notes version of my story.<p>A friend and co-worker introduced (set me up) me to her long time friend (a guy). I had not been on a date in like a year and she kept saying that he was a nice guy, be good for me to go out, etc. We dated a bit. One night in a domestic dispute my neighbor killed his wife and child. I was really, really upset (they were freinds of mine). This guy came over to keep me company and calm me down. We began necking and things got pretty heated. I asked him to leave. During the course of "necking" we were paritally undressed, but there was NO intercourse. So imagine my suprise when my period was late.<p>We both assumed that there was no way that I was pregnant, but I was. He knows that I am politically pro-choice, but personally pro-life. I told him that there was NO WAY that I could have an abortion. We agreed to have the child and co-parent. NOT ideal circumstances, but we could make the best of it. Be friendly, etc. We ended a "dating" relationship but were close friends [NO SEX]. For the record that was the 1 time I had sexual contact in 1997 and the only sexual contact I ever had with this man.<p>This girl and I worked together so when my belly got big she began to ask questions. He began to pressure me to not tell her. Said that if I told her i'd have to have an abortion. I thought he was nuts! Another couple of months go by and I finally tell her the truth. She acted like it was no big deal. He threw a GIANT fit and began to threaten me, etc. Told me, "shove that baby up your...(you can imagine the rest). It didn't make since so I severed all ties.<p>MUCH later I find out that the 2 of them had had an ongoing sexualy relationship for several years. Apparently he had wanted to meet me so she made the introduction thinking he would not be my type. When we hit it off she got jealous, when she found out I was pregnant she was LIVID because he swore to her that we were friends and nothing more. (sound familiar)
==========================================<p>Sooo, to answer your questions
#1-I had my baby because I thought it was the best thing to do.
#2-As his mother I feel that it is my job to protect him from harm. To that end I WOULD NOT permit his father to have him around this woman
#3-While I have no choice as to who is in his father's world, I DO have a choice as far as who my child will be exposed to.
#4-you chose to adopt this baby. How would you feel if his/her mother came back and wanted visitation. How would you feel if you felt that this woman would have your child in a harmful situation. Do you feel like you should have a say. After all you did choose this situation.<p>As a mother [regardless of the circumstances under which you became a mother] there is still a protective instinct.<p>Hope this helps.<p>Oh, and for the record, I would LOVE it if the (now W) would open her heart to my son. Problem is, #1-I dont know that she would and #2-maybe she thinks that she is capable of opening her heart but I don't want my helpless child to be the test case. Her assumption has been "we're so great over here, you just want what we have." When in all honesty, given a choice they'd NEVER, NEVER, NEVER see this child and have nothing to do with him. But in trying to be the bigger person I have left the door open to them. Thank God I don't require financial support from them. Although no matter what, they have decided that i'm "just after their money." (I alone make more then their salaries combined). Or somehow jealous of them.<p>I honestly feel sorry for both of them. She's stuck with a known looser (IMHO) and he's the kind of man who can't/won't take responsibility for his actions.<p>I, on the other hand, get to choose what kind of father figure i'll have in my son's life.<p>Ok, now i'm ranting. <p>This is a pretty loaded topic as you can tell.<p>[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</p>

Ok, i'll say this and then i'll shut up. This is a pretty loaded subject for me as you can probably tell.<p>IMO, regaurdless of how a child was conceived, at the end of the day I think that everyone should be looking out for the best interest of that child. Love it or hate it, THEY are the only innocent parties here. EVERYONE else has a choice. They do not.<p>Past all of the finger pointing, hurt feelings, high drama there is a much greater good that can be served. <p>My mother a (conservative christian) went NUTS when she found out that I was pregnant. When I got to be about 8 months I had bad siatica [sp?]. She called one day and said "how are you." I said "my back hurts." Her response, "maybe you should have thought of that before you got layed down with this man..."<p>The point is, why cry over spilt milk. <p>There is NO question that there are a lot of emotion on all sides. But somehow, some way we all need to pray and rise above it. The stakes are sky high.<p>(Lindaloo, I do not envy your situation. I hope that you and your husband find a way to work it out)
I'll shut up for real this time.<p>[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</p>

katie scarlett,I want to respond to your post. You mention the child is the only innocent in the situation. Not true.Their are other innocent victims-the wife of the wandering spouse, ( or husband if the wife is the wanderer), and any children that couple may have.The betrayed spouse had no say in A, no say in conception in child,no decision in whether child was born or adopted out, no say in the affair relationship.The children of this couple had no say in having family torn apart or stressed by this whole affair.So, even though child existts, I think it is perfectly understandable that the betrayed spouse and children want nothing to do with OC and OW. They are innocent victims , too, and have to deal a lot with the mess of this type of affair for no reasons of their own, other than they are with wandering spouse. All of these people are innocent victims as well.

So, even though child existts, I think it is perfectly understandable that the betrayed spouse and children want nothing to do with OC and OW.

<small>[ January 20, 2003, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: whatif? ]</small>

Lindaloo, Our visits stopped at one because ow decided she didn't want me present for pick up or visits. When I called for FIRST visit I took all kind of put-downs from ow till she agreed on day and time.<p>Next day she called H's cell and office and left messages if he wanted to see baby it would be on her terms. Not to have me call...etc... It was downhill from there as she campaigned against me.
I told H I didn't have it in me to continue the fight. H agreed it soured our attempts to heal.<p>As for kids accepting. Our son was at first visit holding baby and crying. Found out now he was emotional because he really felt no connection but felt Dad would be angry if he did otherwise. Sorry to say H was unemotional also. When we took baby home he later said how he didn't feel connected...as if it were a friends child he fed and held. So many months have passed since then. Son finally told H that baby should stay where it's at. It'll only grow up mouthing off to us like the rest of ow's kids. They hate us! We pray ow's H will be a dad to all of ow's kids.<p>Have a poja w/your H. If you're uncomfortable w/him talking to ow and visiting alone...tell him..you will resent him soon for leaving you out. His first responsibility is to his wife.<p>love
Debi

well.....
in the world I come from, while crying over the spilled milk is pointless, the spilled milk must be cleaned up...that's called accepting consequences for one's actions.<p>I agree, the stakes are high. IMHO my marriage is the most important relationship at stake. Then the health and well-being of this child. Somehow, my H and I are trying to figure out how to neatly merge the two into one big-ole' priority.<p>I know I'm very hard-nosed about this. And I must admit I take a great pleasure in knowing that this baby's mom would love to have as much involvement in our lives (even if only for the benefit of knowing what's going on w/ her daughter). But the fact of the matter is, according to the LAW, not OPINION OR MATERNAL INSTINCT, what the child does when their with either parent is just that. The parents have very littel control over who/how/what visitation is like for their child. <p>I long for the day when we can truly incorporate this little baby into our world and set the pace for what will be a very sterile, clinical, diplomatic working agreement with her mom. <p>And to finally kill the dead and bloodied horse already....tough for her....she has no control of what will happen when the baby is with us. Like it or not.<p>Signed,
Sick of the xows that brought what they knew to be the stolen goods (i.e. married man), now they want a service and quality agreement from the ORIGINAL OWNER? [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

Matthew,
I think that with a lot of work, maybe you guys can come to an agreement that fits you.<p>I know that my mother and TOW did. (In time).<p>I since a lot of tight lipped resentment in your posts. I hope that all of you guys are able to find a way to deal with this situation in a way that is much less stressful. <p>I think your signature line is right "the prisoner is you."<p>[ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</p>

To Lindaloo:
Hi, I'm still a "new" member, and haven't posted for a while. I've only posted a couple of times. I'm also the BS thanks to my H. Also in my case the OW will not "allow" OC to be around me. H went to a court mediator to try to settle things and all they came up with were "supervised" visits at the OW's parents house 3 times a week. OW asked to "inspect" MY HOME before she will 'allow' H to have child there. He was such an idiot and had no idea what he was agreeing to when he told Mediator that would be fine. He says that he didn't realize what the question really meant. He was happy at the 3 times a week to see his daughter. Needless to say, I was very upset, angry and extremely hurt because I told him he had no right giving OW authority to come into MY home! Until he either allows OW to "inspect" or we got back to court, which we financially CANNOT do right now, he has to continue visits at grandparents house. I hate it very much. I hate the anger and weird feelings this has all created inside of me. We've had a year and a half since d-day and for the most part things ARE NOT any better. I think I still have so much pain & anger inside because he's never wanted to hear my feelings, he makes me out to the bad guy because I won't/can't accept things. He tells me that he doesn't want to talk about the situation or hear anything from me. He says he loves me, wants our marriage, is sorry for what he's done but can't change it and will see OC whether I like it or not. He wants all of us to be together like one big happy family! But yet he lets OW pull all the strings because he's afraid to p her off for fear she won't let him see child. But he's finally getting tired of that game and has told her so. He's asked to have OC at his home, OW's said NO. He's asked to have OC at Thanksgiving to see his parents - OW said NO! What she doesn't realize is how much, in the long run, she's hurting her own child - the child her and my H created together, by keeping H out of the picture except on her terms. Of course I'm still hurt and don't understand why ANY OF THIS had to happen and am praying for the day of healing to start. Just FYI, we've finally started counseling, have gone to 1 session and we both think it went really well. H says he wants our marriage & loves me more than anything and doesn't want to lose what we have together. Thanks for listening, my prayers are with you!

Just a couple of points Katie,<p>I applaud you on your choice to have your child. But understand, I feel that in choosing to have and keep the baby, there would be circumstances beyond your control. (understand when I say you, I'm sounding off on the xow in my situation)
The underlying meaning of motherhood is looking out for what belongs to you. But might I suggest that this happens BEFORE you get pregnant. If you had to choose all over again, would you choose the same biological dad for your child, or would you choose differently? And in choosing, you would be potentially protecting your child from the very situation you fear.
To answer only one of your questions, yes, I've adopted. And I would feel threatened if his birth mom came back and wanted to be in a substantial relationship with him. Realistically and reasonably, if I felt she would do harm, I would fight to the death to protect him from that harm. And because she's already signed away her rights, the law would most certainly back me up.
BUT, to entertain your question, if the shoe were on the other foot and I was an xow, I feel that just because I would feel threatened, doesn't mean I would have the permission to act out of that fear. Especailly if I knew the wife would not harm my child.
I along with my H chose to start our family by adopting. We knew and are aware of the risks of bio parents later wanting contact. But we accepted that risk anyway. By knowing and accepting whatever risks you're taking up front, a person should be better prepared for the $*%& hitting the fan later. <p>All I can speak on is our situation. Yours seem to be a little different. In your situation there were no vows or promises made before family friends state and God to love, honor and forsake all others. Trust me, I'm not preaching...just saying that your situation seemed to be a little more casual. I expected so much more from my H. And expected just as much from an outsider. Marriage is marriage. If she were married, I'm sure she wouldn't wish someone like herself on her marriage if she and her husband hit a rough spot.<p>I wouldn't support my H in bringing this baby into our lives if I felt like I wanted to cause her pain. It would be much easier to ask him to choose between the child and our family.
That would be painful to the child for sure. At least in this case we are trying to do right by the baby.<p>Understand that as his wife, I'm supporting him and also accepting the risks involved.
1. My family and his family may ride our backs for a long time to come. I won't ask you to imagine the embarassment we're in for when people would like to know exactly who this little girl is.
2. Even though our contact with the baby will be limited to weekends and maybe summers, I ACCEPT the fact that because she's being raised by her mother, her mother will have some indirect influence in my household. Especially with my son. What she does to her daughter will inevitably rub off on my son.
3. Contact with the xow will be necessary. What if an old conversation strikes up? What if my H and she shares a laugh about what the baby did? Painful...very painful.
4. and the list goes on.<p>But my point is that these are the costs for accpeting oc in our lives. My H accepts them. I accept them. Painful...yes. Confusing...yes. Potentially damaging to us as individuals...yes.
But we accept them and will not hold anyone else accountable in the long run.<p>ACCOUNTABILITY***ANSWERABILITY****LIABILITY****
There are no escape clauses in this, especially not for the xow. If we accept the reality, then so should she.<p>To all of the bs that are reading this post, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE understand that while your spouse may have betrayed you, he didn't do it alone. She/He wondered onto your territory. And you should assume they had sense enough to know that it was just that....your territory, regardless of what your spouse was telling them.
Hold them accountable for what they chose. Don't let them come in and dictate what does and does not go on in your household. That's your husband, your wife, your children, your money, your LIFE.
Take it back....and hold on to it like a rabid pit bull!!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Matthew6:14,15:
[QB]Just a couple of points Katie,<p>I applaud you on your choice to have your child. But understand, I feel that in choosing to have and keep the baby, there would be circumstances beyond your control.
[/B] Agreed. But that's true of ANY parent. I'm sure you had no way of knowing that your husband would cheat.<p>(understand when I say you, I'm sounding off on the xow in my situation)
oh<p>The underlying meaning of motherhood is looking out for what belongs to you.
I think that motherhood is about looking after what belongs to God, but I hear what you're saying.<p>But might I suggest that this happens BEFORE you get pregnant.
Sure. And had I known that my actions would have gotten me pregnant...I had ZERO reason to believe that what happened would get me pregnant. Clearly I failed 8th grade sex class. Apparently you CAN get pregnant from kissing. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>If you had to choose all over again, would you choose the same biological dad for your child, or would you choose differently? And in choosing, you would be potentially protecting your child from the very situation you fear.
Had I known the truth this man would have NEVER been at my house. NEVER! If I had the option of sitting down and hand selecting a father for my child I might not have chosen him. At the same time I might not have such a great kid. In addition, we have been able to work it out in a manner that makes everyone happy. So for that I am extremely grateful. And in that respect he's the perfect dad.<p>I feel that just because I would feel threatened, doesn't mean I would have the permission to act out of that fear.
true<p>Especailly if I knew the wife would not harm my child.
How does she know this? Just because you would not harm your kids does not mean that you wouldn't harm anybody elses. You know yourself, but if the OW in your situation has only heard bad things about you, what's she to think. I'm not defending this woman. I'm just trying to offer another POV. <p>It's really easy to use the legal system to beat one another to a pulp. I have learned that lesson all to well. But as we both know vengence is a sword swung by the blade.<p>All I can speak on is our situation. Yours seem to be a little different. In your situation there were no vows or promises made before family friends state and God to love, honor and forsake all others.
True. But as my friends I fully expected these people to treat me with honesty and kindness and not but me in the middle of some sick game. Then get mad at ME when I wouldn't play along and do what they thought was best. (ok-thats me ranting about my situation)<p>Trust me, I'm not preaching...just saying that your situation seemed to be a little more casual.
I guess it was. The feels are the same though.<p>I expected so much more from my H. And expected just as much from an outsider. Marriage is marriage.
True enough. I honestly don't envy you or any other BS who have to now try and explain who this mystery child is. My cousin is in the exact same sitution. She puts on a brave face and dotes on this little girl, but considering that she wanted a little girl of her own, I have NO idea how she does it.<p>Anyway, I honestly pray that you guys find a way to love one another (to the best of your ability) and this child. And to work it out so that it doesn't hurt forever.<p>God Bless.<p>[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</p>