Hi,
I wonder if you have thought about, or I guess maybe you have, ministered to other XOW w/OC about living a Christ-filled life, esp. in these situations? <p>This seems hard to explain...I knew our XOW rather closely (obviously not as closely as I thought!). I have spent more time in the last year reading Christian material than ever before, and MANY times I wish I could give a passage to XOW, sometimes out of genuine goodness, sometimes out of wanting her to feel more guilt (mean but true). I know I am not the right person to "minister" to her and I don't want more of her in our life. But in my own way I wish she would find her way to Christ, and it is possible that she has (long story). If only I knew if she had accept Christianity, and if she would offer even one apology to me, it would make what contact we do have easier for me. So, my desire for her Christianity is partly selfish, for me, to be rid of the pain, and partly for her and the OC. You know, if someone like you interceded.... that's the fantasy on my end.<p>I could say more but trying not to get too specific. I hate the idea that she could find this site and read my personal feelings about anything. She stole and betrayed so much already.<p>Jenny,
in recovery 3+ years and love my hubby

You know??? *sigh*<p>Like many of you guys I have not "gone public" with my story as far as ministry work goes...<p>People put you in their little box and see you differently, EVEN THO they may have previously thought of you as a darling angel from what they KNOW of you face to face...<p>Even when I have an opportunity to open up, people assume that my OC is from a "previous marriage" and I don't get in a word edgewise to answer their questions. They answer for me. So I just shut up. It's amazing... It's like people don't really want to hear what you may have to say???<p>But it's safer for them to assume things, right? I mean, at our recent neighborhood Christmas party, this happened. Now that I think of it, if I had told the woman that my OC's father was and is married and I was not married, etc... She probably would have thought of me as a threat to her very own marriage when that to me, is UTTERLY ABSURD! You know??? So I just let it go...<p>As far as "getting thru to OW?" Gosh, that's another big sigh because I have definitely lurked on gloryb.com and man oh man... Sometimes people are in such a deep state of sin where the blinders are so demonically thick there is no breaking through without MUCH fasting and prayer. Now see? Someone may read what I just wrote and think "who the heck does she think she is?" Maybe would think I'm being holier than thou or judgmental when that is NOT the case whatsoever...<p>I am the first one to speak about my shameful past of sexually addictive type of behavior filled with all the consequences that go along with it--in an attempt to be accepted (through sex), I ended up totally rejected and dumped, used and maybe even a nasty little surprise in the end (disgusting STDs) after the guy got what he wanted! YUCK! But do you think a little STD stopped me? Heck no! Why? Because lust can be so demonically charged and insatiable that you don't stop yourself. You're eating pig slop with the pigs and you think it's perfectly all right. (think prodigal...)<p>If you ask me? OW are in a fog of their own? BEEN and DONE that, so I'm only assessing through my filtered point of view. No need to respond, ye who are just a lurkin... [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Sometimes, you can only pray for people. You can't convince someone of something that it takes a revelation from GOD for them to see? Think about it, have we ever been able to convince our spouses to see things our way when they are bent on going in a certain direction or making a certain decision? All we can do is trust God, but it's a good thing because it is a way of empowering ourselves--strengthening our faith, trusting confidently in God, keeping our peace, remaining pleasant knowing it's in God's hands, whatever....<p>We can pray people into someone's life that they will listen to, we can pray people out of our loved ones' lives. I have done this and it works. Faith is an adventure! We don't have to waste one single minute trying to convince anyone of anything. Jesus didn't. In His ministry, He even RAN when people didn't accept what He had to say!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Remember the time they were trying to kill Him, but he ran and got away! Jesus was bold and confrontational.<p>However, at this point in my "ministry" I choose the route of prayer. God said if we ask Him in secret, in our closet, that He would reward us openly and I can say that I have seen this happen in my life. You are asking me a tough question--to step out there and take a risk. I guess if someone is helped, then it would be worth it--totally. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Still, it's a tough thing. Hmmm... Must be a God thing then??? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Oftentimes, He doesn't ask easy things of us...<p>I pray for all my cyber friends and enemies...<p>I have tried to post to single OW on this board recently and in the past, as an example, but they can't handle my truths nor my POV--maybe too MB-oriented for their blood and/or current situations... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>But you know Jenny, it took me YEARS to get to this place and a lot of things happening along the way. The true love and acceptance of my husband, becoming a wife, finding MB and BS's who post here, getting honest with myself about my issues and answering all the why's and how's for myself...<p>I believe your x-OW will get there too. She will. One day she will come full-circle with what she did to you and BAM! The light will turn on. She may be remorseful, she may not. It depends. BUT, I think that if you are praying for God's will to be done in her life, that God will honor that prayer and the word will get back to you when God's timing is right!

Gotta love ya BINthereDUNthat. Your posts from the time you arrived here are full of God's truths. Some people just don't get it.<p>Example, God answers all prayers only not as you thought he would specifically.
While A was going on I knew my H was troubled. I prayed for God to release his depression and put us back the way we used to be. BAM! I get a confession that blew me away. But without that confession we would never begin to get back as we were. We would still be in limbo, going through life not knowing what was happening to us.<p>God answered but not at all how I wished.<p>Then I asked God to take away my pain. Before and during his answer I felt so much pain I wanted to die. I wanted instant relief. I began to doubt, then I just couldn't pray, especially when I found out the priest was deviously working behind my back working on H's "baby guilt" It prevented H and I from cementing a poja, and to come together as God wanted.<p>Then I just prayed for God to show me the path I should follow that would honor him most.<p>Well, here I am.<p>This months Redbook magazine has a first person story called "Why I Cheated". Read it all of you. Man tells and warns others it's not worth it.<p>Thanks for your insight on things BtDt. I, for one appreciate it.<p>love
Debi

Binthere,
thank you for your heartfelt reply. I agree that many times people would prefer not to know the unpleasant parts of us, to keep things light and easy... they really DON'T want to hear it or deal with it. Ignorance is bliss. <p>Most of the time, that's fine. Life is complicated enough. As one counselor put it, the bagger at the grocery doesn't need to know your business. But we also need "real" people in our life, real friends who will celebrate our successes, listen to our woes with sympathy and an occassional kick in the pants.<p>The XOW and I were friends like that once. I have never "gotten over" her causing me and my children pain, betraying our friendships. I cannot explain why it feels important that she admit she was wrong. The birth of an innocent OC does not "justify" any of her bizzare behavior. I wish someone would screw her head on straight, and I do pray about it when I can. It would make my role as contact person much easier if there were a higher level of understanding between us. <p>As it is, I feel like I'm always on alert for more pain and insanity from her direction. Even though she has acted reasonably for awhile, the first 18mo were hell; I have no way of knowing where her head is at now or what weird idea she'll pull next. XOW describes raising the OC with Christian activities, which is where my hope comes from.<p>My fantasy is, if someone like you Binthere, were to "counsel" her on Christ, remorse, forgiveness and boundaries, I selfishly might get some closure out of it. I don't want to be "friends" with her again, but it would be such a relief to expect reasonable adult behavior. There is so much unsaid.<p>Just venting I guess.<p>Thank you again
Jenny,
3+years and marriage is great!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jenny:
<strong>...My fantasy is, if someone like you Binthere, were to "counsel" her on Christ, remorse, forgiveness and boundaries, I selfishly might get some closure out of it... </strong><hr></blockquote><p>If you guys were friends on that level before, trust me, she knows exactly what she did. When she is lying there in bed on her pillow at night, she knows. I will definitely be interceding for your situation, in my prayers. God will work it out.<p>I believe God has listened to all your concerns and I believe He is working it out. ("All things work together for the good...") Your "non-friend" may have to be slapped in the face with the reality of what she's done--meaning it may have to happen to her just the way she dished it out for her to admit to you... Hopefully that won't happen.<p>There's another interesting thread about this In Recovery--OW called to apologize--something like that. You should read it...<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=31&t=005279<p>The thing is, when OC gets old enough to realize what's going on, the reality of what OW has done will knock her between the eyes. When she has to start teaching her kid about character, friendship, and morality, OH BOY! Will she ever be thinking! That scripture "out of the mouths of babes" is sooo true. Kids know how to bring reality straight home. They just call 'em how they see 'em, is all.<p>No, OW has definitely disqualified herself for friendship with you, but I agree with your prayers for more understanding between you. When your ways please the Lord, He makes your enemies be at peace with you! So I believe it can happen! Keep the faith!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by gemini1:
<strong>...This months Redbook magazine has a first person story called "Why I Cheated". Read it all of you. Man tells and warns others it's not worth it...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hmmm... I'll have to check out this article you mentioned. Sounds interesting.<p>I think that is awesome how your prayer was answered. Your instincts told you something was wrong. I believe that is how God speaks to us. And you are right, sometimes we are looking for God to come from one direction and He comes from an entirely different angle than expected!! Still, it all works out in the end.<p>I mean, if you get a chance to browse that other thread I mentioned, you will read how that particular OW told the BS that OW was no longer "angry" toward the BS? HUH???<p>But when I thought about it, I decided that OWs anger had to be coming from the fact that the BS and WS's marriage is in recovery--WS LOVES his wife and wants to be with his wife, not OW--whose H did NOT forgive her, BTW... Just very interesting how OWs "apology" was still sort of awkwardly delivered.<p>But the way the BS (peppermint) handled it was awesome, I must say. Check it out when you get a chance!<p>What is my point? Well, personally, I think that if a marriage can recover from an affair, that's one commendable thing and speaks volumes about the couples' love and willingness to recommit. BUT, if it can hold together in spite of an OC--that is extremely terrific and blessed. Blessed, meaning = to be envied. You have sooo much good outweighing the bad and maybe sometimes the pain disguises it, but still, the blessedness is there and should not be ignored! God has blessed your marriage tremendously! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

:} Thankyou,BTDT again.<p>When I geet some time I'd like to read the thread.<p>BTW the ow here was my friend too.....<p>love
Debi

Binthere,
I did look up that post and it was very interesting. How sad that her XOW is such a damaged person she can't even understand the right way to apologize. I'm amazed how how much grace peppermint pulled out of the situation; good for her!!! I don't think I could have let it go so easily.<p>Given all the church activities our XOW said she's got the OC in, I can't imagine she's not become a Christian, yet the only time she's ever used the word amends it was in quotes, as in [H]"go ahead and make "amends" to your wife but you have responsibilities to OC" blah blah.<p>Binthere, I will try to concentrate on a prayerful solution. I know God is Almighty, but people have Freewill, and XOW sure hasn't used hers well.<p>Gemini, it does make it worse knowing we gave our friendship to these women only to be 'slapped in the face', 'stabbed in the back', etc.<p>Best wishes to you both,
J

Jenny it is something I go over and over again in my mind trying to find "clues" Alas hindsight....I DO see some things...a new years eve kiss that was inappropiate....ow yelling at me for bringing one "light-up" bouncing ball instead of 3 when her c's fought over it.. my BIL works for a toy manufacurer and gave me a few to pass around. My h agreeing w/her and saying "yeah Deb next time use your head!"<p>I felt awful.<p>I jog/walk everyday and ow began to walk by my home every day. Many times we'd pass RIGHT NEXT to each other and between her sunglasses and headphones she would act as if she didn't see me to say hi! I'd tell H and he'd say I was crazy..she'd never do that. She did though.<p>On a storming day I passed ow and ran to my home to get my car and get her b4 lightening would strike her! I drove her to her car.(which she parked close to our home to walk our neighborhood!) <p>She told me I was stupid once for going to the vietnamese place I get manicures from because her friend got a disease from them!<p>Just a lot of nightmare memories.<p>Anyhow...Merry Christmas....<p>love
Debi

Yuck, those are not friends... [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I still want to read the Redbook article. I hope I'm not too late...

You're not too late BTDT. We just got a copy this week at the office. I think it's Dec. issue, but maybe Jan, 02..<p>It's short. Man describes how when he was w/ow he only thought of ow. Describes her smell etc. Intoxicating etc. Then describes his W. Said he knew it was wrong but couldn't stop.<p>The thing that got me is ow was their friend and married. He and ow left their spouses for each other and it lasted 18 months. The upheaval from bs finding out why they left caused great problems for MOW. She couldn't take the flames and as MM put it went back to her H. Thing is MM W moved on.<p>He said it wasn't worth changing his life over. A sort of warning to others.<p>Just in case you don't read it. A little about it.<p>love
Debi

Gemini,<p>I've been thinking about it and maybe this apology thing is a need for a ritual. It came to my attention a few years ago, that rituals have real purpose in our lives; and that is why I made a ritual (after a time) for forgiving H and "starting over" together, plus we renewed our marriage vows. <p>There isn't anything remotely like that to "correct" these OC situations. An apology of some kind seems like the very least a betrayed wife deserves from the XOW, esp. when the XOW KNEW the wife to begin with... <p>Maybe it wouldn't matter as much if you aren't going to have any contact with OC/XOW anyway, but in cases where there is some (or like you, an honest attempt)at contact with an OC, there ought to be some adult-like mutual understanding to get us all through the remaining 18 (dastardly dirty word cuss) years. <p>So... in the many cases where at least one of the parties involved is too *whatever* to behave maturely, maybe we should make our own ritual to "let go" of XOW/OC situations. It would be the cleanest ritual emotionally, if it were a goodbye-OC-we-release-you-to-your-future-and-God kind of thing (no contact). But that wouldn't apply to my case, so I haven't thought up one for us yet...
--------------------------
Here's a cool ritual story:<p>A husband and wife are very close and loving as they struggle to cope with his debilitating illness [I forget if it was MS or similar]. Every night before sleeping they touch their wedding rings together and say "in sickness and in health, 'til death do us part." After a few years, he does die, and his widow mourns for years.<p>At 7 years, she feels ready to move on, but she cannot bear to remove her wedding ring. She asks her minister/or/priest to help her. <p>He invites her family and friends to witness a ceremony in which he asks her to answer to her vows, as in:
"Did you, Suzy Someone, fulfill your vows to love, honor and cherish, in sickness and in health, [etc.], 'til death do you part?" She says yes. He asks if anyone knows any reason this may not be true. Silence.
Then he says "You may now take off your ring." She said it finally felt okay.
----------------------------------------<p>Rituals help us. We have them for births, marriages, illnesses, deaths, promotions, lots of things. But dealing with OC/XOW has no guidelines, no rituals, not even a single solitary booklet!

Sniff sniff, Jenny. You are so right with that last post.<p>Ow here will not apologize as she sees it as my H's fault alone. H came after her because he wasn't getting it at home...H is only not seeing c because he'd face financial ruin..(yeah, right...she also told him she'd give him a dozen more c's and all the money he'd ever want..so why is he still here if he was afraid of financial ruin?) he's not seeing c because I hold h in a cage (gee, where was the cage when A was going on?) Maybe it's what he told her because it was sexual only, no going out or walking in any place..only meeting in parking lots to use her car to do the NASTY. So maybe he told her I had him in a cage and he couldn't take her to dinner or a movie or out dancing,,huh?<p>I do know he spent every work day afternoon drinking with her and her Mom, missing dinner for well over a year. They met when he put an addition on her mom's home for ow and her h 5 years ago. H felt sorry for her (awwwww) because all she did was complain about how bad her h treated her (awwww) I, however didn't treat my h that way. I was UNDERSTANDING and worried for his mental health. And as my Mom told him, while he was being good to ow he was doing to me exactly as ow said her h was doing to her. So there. H cried at that one.<p>Oops! There I go sounding off again!<p>Sorry Jenny. But if you find a ritual..let me know. ugh!<p>love
Debi

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by gemini1:
<strong>You're not too late BTDT. We just got a copy this week at the office. I think it's Dec. issue...
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I READ IT! I bought the issue, but thought it was the wrong one because I couldn't readily find the title in the contents... The magazine had been in my car for days! Then yesterday, while waiting in the car & flipping through, I stumbled across it! What a surprise! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>What stood out to me was the part where he said that his wife did nothing to make him want to have an affair... Between the lines was that HE ALSO DID NOTHING to protect himself from his own weaknesses. He didn't discuss or pray about it with his wife. He just tried to ignore the friend hoping that lust would leave him alone. Right...<p>Temptation has a way of disappearing when the temptor gets exposed. There is this feeling of shame that goes with it. The temptor tempts us to sin, then beats us over the head with guilt. God gently forewarns us about sin, but if we ignore Him, we get to face the consequences. We can choose our actions, but not the consequences. He made a poor choice and as a result, lost his marriage!<p>I too thought it was interesting how OW was able to recover her marriage but he was not because of the stigmatism associated with OW and how she couldn't handle that label...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jenny:
<strong>...in the many cases where at least one of the parties involved is too *whatever* to behave maturely, maybe we should make our own ritual to "let go" of XOW/OC situations. It would be the cleanest ritual emotionally, if it were a goodbye-OC-we-release-you-to-your-future-and-God kind of thing (no contact). But that wouldn't apply to my case, so I haven't thought up one for us yet...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I enjoyed reading the ritual story of the widow who was finally able to move on after 7 years of mourning her loss...<p>For you who have contact with OC, who may wish to keep the relationship even after 18 years, I think the ritual probably lies in your daily prayers.<p>Was watching Dr.Phil's get real challenge and I think he is the one who said that whatever feeling we want from receving what is desired (the apology), we can have without actually getting it. I think what he meant was that we create our own reality. It doesn't make what our abuser did to ever be okay, but WE can come to grips that we did nothing wrong.<p>It's probably like putting 1Cor.13 into action where we walk in love and "believe the best of every person." So the prayer would go something like this:<p>"Lord I thank you that __ is the kind and loving Christ-like person and parent that You created them to be. I pray they are blessed and contented and creating an environment of acceptance for their children. I believe there is remorse and accountability in their life by faith. I pray that they find peace with You in all areas of their life."<p>It is a way of sowing good seeds for a good harvest (in YOUR garden of life). It's a lot easier said than done because sometimes people lend themselves to the enemy and don't even realize it. (taken captive by him at HIS will...) So, it's really sad. Another thing to pray is that OW would recover herself from the enemy's snare... She's only hurting herself (& her kid) by not trying to make amends with you. Soooo sad...<p>Another thing Dr.Phil mentioned is that we feel trapped when we have not found the door yet. (In other words, there IS a door!) [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>18 months<hr></blockquote><p>BTDT I'm glad you read it only I said they left their spouses and it lasted 18 mos when it was 18 DAYS!!! Imagine that. Also think his wife didn't want it to work as they had no c's together and being it was HER girlfriend was too much to forgive.....<p>Yup that "ow" ran back to her h. Funny how the woman still gets the most blame especially if she's also married. In this day and age THAT hasn't changed!<p>Oh well glad you read it.
love
Debi

Binthere,
Thank you for your suggestions. I am saving them to think and pray about. <p>I actually caught part of that Oprah show today (something I rarely get time for but just happened onto). <p>Did you notice the case of the (single) dad who was not helping raise his daughter, and the woman who cried because she had not had a father? It is such a shame my H cannot "be there" for his OC without it destroying my own family. The OC is likely to grown up and behave just like her mother (another OC). The pattern continues and the consequences of sin are so ugly; I hate being a part of it.<p>Binthere, I would be curious your opinion of our personal case, but I hesitate to put much detail on the board. Would you be interesting in hearing it by 'private' email?

Yes, Jenny, I trust you to contact me, the only problem is that the last time I got in touch with a so-called MBer (OW) via e-mail, she cursed me out calling me a "sanctimonious witch" (only with a b). Guess she couldn't handle my truth & the way *I* see things! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Another MBer (through private e-mail) suggested that I post OW and my e-mail exchange on the forum! WHAT A GREAT IDEA! But too bad it was too late, since I already had deleted everything.<p>So Jenny, if you are willing to post your e-mail, I will check back here and contact you later (LATE) tonight... I know it's a risk, but I don't have an account with my screenname, only my REAL name... & after that last incident, I am sort of hesitant... I'm sure you can understand.<p>The thing is, she could have blasted me on the forum, NO PROBLEM, been there, done that and don't have a problem with it. She chose to get inflammatory in private but keep up a facade so she could be embraced on the forum and it's working for her. Too funny...<p>Oh well, one thing I have noticed on Pregnancy/Child is that you guys are very careful with your private e-mails and that is very wise. Boy, have I learned my lesson! You never know what people's real motives are...

BINthereDUNthat,<p>It's real easy to get a hotmail account do you have outlook express? If you do go to the help menu and click on hotmail.
I like reading what you have to say you have made my day a little briter quit a few times.
with love, flowerseed

Binthere,
I do understand and I'm sorry you had a bad experience. Ditto flower: try hotmail or other free service. <Delete>
Thanks,
J<p>[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: Jenny ]<p>[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Jenny ]</p>