Lydia, in a lot of ways this is the anti-MB site, but in your particular situation you might find it helpful: Direct Answers from Wayne and Tamara

Lydia, glad your back. You seem down. I understand. The first thing I have to say is don't bother getting that totally stupid book by Dr. Laura. I think she's having some sort of mental episode or something...Don't pay money for it (although doing so may help her pay for much needed therapy)....moving on...I will share what's gone on with me in hopes it may assist you in some way. Since we talked before my husband and I had our first session with Steve Harley. I have filled out the emotional needs and love busters questionaires which are in the 5 steps to Romantic Love Workbook by Dr. W Harley. I must say that it allowed me to see the positive points about my husband - yes I vented the negative as well - but the positives are a strong plus for him. You might try that on your end and see if you find the same. I'm being told that theoretically you fell out of love because of love busters, so the opposite should also be true. Time will tell. I'm keeping an open mind right now. It's nice you are able to also see what it is in the other man that suits you (something good can come out of this!). Those are definitely things which could be added to your list of needs....I think it's okay to be on the fence, even though that other person said "get off the fence". It's nice you don't want to hurt your husband any more. I do think it might be okay to tell him you are thinking about these things because 1. It will certainly boost his ego. and 2. You again, will have been honest to your best friend - nothing wrong with that. Anyhow, only time will tell if the theory works or not for me. I think the questionaires are also available on the website somewhere - don't wait too long if you want to try to work it out! I would hate for you to regret it later on - for all three of you. In a way I feel bad that I supported you in staying separated, but that's how I felt...I think I wished I was you having taken that big step out the door. I go back and forth on that feeling still... You'll find your way. I'm going to read Carlos Casteneda now...I read an excerpt that said to choose a path with heart-sounded interesting....

Ladies - if you continue on the path you are headed, you will be divorced and lonely. Please don't subject your H's to this manipulation and deception any longer. Some of you show little willingness to change yourselves and instead seek to justify your selfishness - how sad! Your men deserve better - why not let them go so they can eventually find a true soulmate who will love and support them?

Love is a choice and an action - it's not based upon emotions and "feelings". Some of you are so caught up in your "me, me, me" attitudes you can't see the forest through the trees. Please consider re-examination of your motives.

Remember that this is a forum of 'just folks' - not psychologists or trained counsellors. But most here do have good intentions. And this is a Marriage Builders site.

I added the italics because the advice you will receive here will have that bias - marriage building. If you are seeking some sort of support for your current actions - you will not get that here (I hope!). Are you realling willing to hear what needs to be said?

I mention this because of the replies to some of the good advice you've received. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No!NO! It's not as easy as your making it out to be...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">maybe someone should cut off your head...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Huh??

And from iMaccami: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">don't bother getting that totally stupid book by Dr. Laura. I think she's having some sort of mental episode...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, I understand that not everyone agrees with everything the Dr Laura writes/says but that is a very disrespectful way to voice your opinion!

I am a 'bottom line' type person. Recognize a problem, find a solution and then implement it. You've recognized a problem - "I didn't find him attractive". You have complicated your situation with adultery. (Let's call it what it is. You are married and became involved with someone else. Even if you are seperated or if your spouse 'knows' about it, it is adultery.) MB'er advice is to cease the adulterous affair. NC (No Contact) is required. Are you really willing to do this? Any other advice is useless without this first step.

Assuming you are in agreement with step one, the next step is a plan to rebuild your marriage. Read Dr Harley's Basic Concepts
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have just been introduced to all the Basic Concepts that I use whenever I try to save a marriage. If you apply them all to your marriage, you will do what most couples want to do, but have failed to do -- fall in love and stay in love. And that's what ultimately saves marriage -- restoring the feeling of love.

Of course, it takes much more than just the feeling of love to build a successful marriage. It takes your willingness and ability to care for and protect each other. But that feeling of incredible attraction is the best litmus test of your success in giving each other the care and protection that you need.

When you are in love, your emotions help you meet each other's emotional needs. They provide instincts that you may not have even known you have -- instincts to be affectionate, sexual, conversational, recreational, honest and admiring. These all seem to come naturally when you are in love.

But when you fall out of love, everything that will help your marriage seems unnatural. Your instincts turn against marital recovery, and toward divorce. That's why I've created these Basic Concepts -- to help you do what it takes to restore your love for each other when you are not in love, when you don't feel like doing any of them. And then once your love is restored, these concepts will help you stay in love for the rest of your lives.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is your spouse 'on board' with this plan? It seems quite possible to me that if/when you each learn to meet each other's EN's (Emotional Needs) and eliminate LB'ers (Love Busters), you will find the passion & love you are seeking. And wouldn't it be better for everyone involved to have these feelings for the father of your children?

If you don't like all this, that is OK by me - I am not involved with you, I have no vested interest. But your spouses & children do. Why not do what is right - either rebuild your marriage or end it and stop hurting those other people in your lives.

It is interesting to hear from people with such different perspectives.

ghnl - Thanks for your back-up, for a while there I thought it was just me. I wouldn't wish this kind of treatment on either spouse.

So, what? Is this tag team wrestling?

I would really like to know what it is that is getting you so worked up? Please explain what behavior offends you so much and why? To me this all reads like real human emotions - are people only allowed to feel a certain way? I don't see anyone doing anything cruel here...I know people do get treated badly which could naturally lead them to be resentful. However, I feel if one is on this site trying to interact with others who are experiencing difficulties, it is more often to get feedback to heal everyone involved - not to hurt them. Did your spouse lose love for you at one time? Is that why you're so defensive? If so, and you are now happy again, please share what made your spouse come back to you. That might be of some use.

We ARE offering information which, if put to use, will bring healing to your marriages. That is what this forum is about - healing and improving marriages. What you appear to be looking for is someone to validate your "feelings" about your rejection and deceptive practices concerning your H's. Sorry, too many of us here have been rejected, deceived, and manipulated.

If you are looking for assistance in HOW to find your H's attractive, that's what you will get here, and that's the info already offered to you. Once again, unconditional love is about changing yourself, giving of yourself, making yourself more attractive to your spouse. Your current behaviors are detrimental to saving your M. The choice is yours, we can only offer some direction and constructive opinions designed to SAVE your M. Yes, you may find someone here, man or woman, so put out with the opposite sex that they may agree with your position and behaviors. That still won't justify your actions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by iMaccami:
<strong> I would really like to know what it is that is getting you so worked up?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You talking to me? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't feel 'worked up', more like one trying to help y'all see things more clearly. MB'ers often speak of the WS (Wandering Spouse) as being "in the fog" - they are so wrapped up in their emotional/physical affair that they do not see things clearly. They say things like "I never loved you" etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please explain what behavior offends you so much and why?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, not so much that it offends me but I also try to see things from other points of view - i.e. your spouse's. I cannot imagine how much your infidelity must hurt. (Read further for a little background on my story.) </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't see anyone doing anything cruel here...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, it seems to me you are encouraging infidelity in order to find the 'zing'. Why not work on your relationships to improve them and get your zings with your husband?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did your spouse lose love for you at one time? Is that why you're so defensive? If so, and you are now happy again, please share what made your spouse come back to you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, I'll try to give you my story in a nutshell (nutshell, not nutcase...)

We've been married almost 30 years. We have two grown children. We were high school sweethearts. <aww.wav> When we'd been married about 10+ years we seemed to be growing apart. I'll bet my wife felt it first but didn't know how to communicate this to me. Eventually, I became aware of the distance and tried to figure out what to do. Eventually, we agreed to try MC. At first my wife was reluctant but we found a good counsellor and she agrees it was a good thing. (It was not MB'er type but it became a good place to get things out and talk).

Anyeway, a few months after we had got our relationship back on track, I came upon evidence of an EA my wife had been involved in. Basically, it was a male co-worker who became her confidant while we were experiencing dificulties. Before too long, she realized how this was leading down the wrong path and ended it. (I thank God she did.)

Please understand this if you get nothing else from my verbiage: this hurt me to the core. And it was 'only' talking and letters. I cannot imagine the pain a physical affair must cause. Had we not first been to MC'ing and repaired our relationship, I think I would have walked out when I learned of the EA. (I thank God I didn't.)

Today, after finding MB'ers and implementing what we have learned here, our marriage is wonderful. So, did we 'lose our love' or did we fail to meet EN's (LB'ers were never a big issue with us)? All I know is the 'zing' is back and we ring that zing as often as poosible!

So, my advice does not change: end the affair & repair your marriage - or - end the marriage & then go chase your zing.

ghnl,

Thank you for your sensible response. That was helpful information. I agree with you 100%. I am in a similar situation of feeling "out of love", have not had an affair, physical or emotional (have had wandering eyes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> on occasion ). Fortunately for me that's as far as it's gone (less to heal possibly...) So, your story gives me hope, and I'm sure others who see it now, that in fact, love can be restored with work. I think somebody else is looking for that same info in another thread...I forget exactly where. Hope you can find it and share there too. I know everyone's different but how long did it take you to get you zing back after the love was lost?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sometimes I feel like a failure. Not being able to make my marraige work. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Having an affair is not the best way to go about making your marriage work, would you not agree? Please explain to me how violating the fidelity in your marriage will improve it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think they are perhaps misconstruing what we are trying to say: that while we LOVE our spouses, and enjoy spending time with them, and appreciate all they have to offer, what we are missing is something that was NOT there from the beginning - *physical* attraction. We are not asking how to love our partners, just how we can be *physically attracted* to them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, not missing that at all. I see the huge problem in the marriage right now as being the affair. As a matter of fact, all but 3 spouses I've ever worked with (and yes I volunteer as a marriage mentor) have said this same thing in the middle of an affair. The affair skews your view of everything, and most rewrite the past in order to justify what they are doing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H knew about this OM right from the beginning. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But does he know that you are still involved with the OM and the extent to which you are involved? There is no difference between partial truth and dishonesty, except maybe politics.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You seem to have all the answers, lets hear your success story </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have one. It's all over these boards. I'd say about 1500 of my posts are devoted to my situation. Perhaps if more time were spent researching the successes out here and how they were accomplished, maybe you'd make some headway.

I'm to the point, and I don't make bones about it - nor do I apologize.

This thread has been out here for weeks and all I see is a bunch of whining about how things aren't good in your marriage now. It's like the whiners and affair support thread. Not once in those weeks has a response been posted about a positive, meaningful step taken to make the marriage better. All I hear is how wonderful the OM is and whining about how awful the marriage is. None of these things will improve a marriage.

If you don't want to improve your marriage and are only looking for people to agree with you, tell you what you want to hear, and say supportive things about your extramarital affair, kindly just come out and say so. Most of us do not like dedicating our free time trying to help those who have no intention of helping themselves.

BTW, ghnl is right. This is a MARRIAGE forum. It is privately owned by Marriage Builders, Inc for the purpose of discussing Dr. Harley's concepts and saving marriages. (Yes, you can look up in the articles and Q/A where he says this himself.)


Somewhere I read one of you say that you couldn't tell your husband you didn't find him attractive. How thoughtful that is! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> You must be so concerned for his feelings. Tell me, where was that concern when you started an affair with another person? You can't tell your husband the truth because it will hurt his feelings, but you can have sex with another man. I find this highly irrational.

<small>[ February 04, 2004, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by *Takola*:
<strong> The affair skews your view of everything, and most rewrite the past in order to justify what they are doing. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the 'fog' aspect of which I wrote. Re-writing history is another common manifestation. Allow me to use your own words.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lydia1:
<strong>We began to develop problems... I didn't find him attractive...

I found myself attracted to another man. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Tryn:
<strong>I love my husband dearly, but have never been physically attracted to him. Some unresolved issues...

resulted in my falling for another man... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by iMaccami:
<strong>...I can't get that feeling back either.

We are just different....and over time you realize that.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please read each last line I quoted and see how it relates to the first line. Open your eyes, people! We are not 'tag teaming' you. We have seen it/heard it before. You really do have options in all this. 1) Keep travelling down the foggy path you are on (and you'll more than likely fall off a cliff because you cannot see clearly) -or- B) Stop your headlong downward spiral and grab onto the rope offered here for a plan to avoid falling off that cliff.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know everyone's different but how long did it take you to get you zing back after the love was lost? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Depends upon how much effort both spouses put into it and how quickly you can be honest with each other. You cannot make proper adjustments to each other until you have accurate information.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by iMaccami:
<strong> ghnl, I know everyone's different but how long did it take you to get you zing back after the love was lost? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I cannot say that we actually 'lost our love' but there were a lot of difficult times. Some days I feared we would not stay together but in the end our commmitment to our marriage vows got us through. I'm sure our children were also a motivating factor in wanting to work it out.

Time-wise, I'd guess it was a couple of years of a strained relationship, followed by a few months of rebuilding and now years of restored love. IMO, traditional MC was, at best, "OK" (and I think we just got lucky to find one that helped - I've heard many horror stories of MC'ing that was not Marriage Building.) After we'd been to MC'ing for a while, the counsellor asked my wife how things were going. I recall some of the sweetest words I've ever heard when she replied, "oh much better - I can hardly wait for him to come home to me after work..." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I read many relationship books, most were good but none 'clicked' like His Needs, Her Needs and the MB'ing web site. Harley's concepts work IF YOU IMPLEMENT THEM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think somebody else is looking for that same info in another thread...I forget exactly where. Hope you can find it and share there too.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you can give me a hint, I'll look for it. But there are lots of good people here. I call them the MB'er Wise Guys. Takola is one (among many) who's advice I value highly. Y'all listen to her, ya'hear!

I remember a poster named rjd...he's still around. For almost a year.....I listened to him lament the loss of his love for his wife...and extol the virtues of the OW. As far as he was concerned....he'd never ever loved his wife and couldn't possibly ever love her like this OW. Because the OW was his "soulmate". Well...guess what? After all that crying and lamenting, he finally put the same energy into his marriage that he did in the OW...and his marriage bloomed. Funny how that happens. And what he realized....though we tried hard to explain along the way.....that focussing his energy outside of his marriage....and spending his days talking (like you gals are) endlessly about the stolen moments he had with this OW and how W doesn't do it for him...were robbing him of healing his marriage. It's amazing how many people marry...then meet an OP....and suddenly "forget" how they felt when they did. They rewrite the whole history....and suddenly...the marriage was "always" flawed. "Infatuation" is short lived ladies....it runs out (like it may have in your marriage)....then what? You look for another OM....so you can keep that 'zing'!? Or you COULD start understand what real romantic "love" is about more than infatuation and fantasy.

bumping this up to see if any of the original posters are still here.

or are you done trolling...?

<small>[ February 06, 2004, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: ghnl ]</small>

Checking in, but probably the last time on this one....Interesting input....a comment on the star*fish entry: It was nice to see that although the old poster did complain, which I think bothers Takola a bit, it is notable that he did manage to find his way successfully back to the marriage. The complaining (or venting) was apparently part of his process...I think complaining, or whining as some may see it, can serve a positive purpose. A slap in the head can also be beneficial at times...I think everyone is doing the best they can under their individual circumstances. I wish the best to everyone. I think I've taken up enough of Lydia's thread here. Pardon me for my big mouth. I'm only going to use my left hand for awhile - that should shut me up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Okay, now this really is the last time! I don't feel finished unless we finally address Lydia's original - CAN I LEARN TO FIND MY HUSBAND ATTRACTIVE? - With the help of Dr. Harley's books, I think that you may indeed come to find your husband attractive and be in love again. However, I suspect that his physical appearance is not actually the big problem. After you read the books (His Needs, Her Needs & Lovebusters) and do the questionaires, you may recognize that at one point you were getting your list of needs met enough to be in love - and he looked the same then. You may be focusing too much on that one need because perhaps it's the most obvious right now. There must be other emotional needs he stopped meeting which contributed to you looking outside of the marriage. I really encourage you to read Dr. Harley's books if you haven't already. It is opening my eyes more each day and it is having a huge impact on my husband. I know that while my husband is very handsome (everyone says so) however I don't find him as attractive as everyone else seems to at this time - I think finding someone attractive can have very much to do with their behavior, their inner person....A very funny movie which touches on that is Shallow Hal with Jack Black. I know it's far out, but I still love the movie. Take care all!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by iMaccami:
<strong>I think that you may indeed come to find your husband attractive and be in love again. However, I suspect that his physical appearance is not actually the big problem.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Glad to see your reply!

Don't worry about hi-jacking this thread - I doubt the others were really seeking help anyway. Nothing wrong with 'venting' but I don't think that's what the others were up to. Move on over the the EN's section, that tends to be a more active forum.

No, what bothers me is Lydia, and in many cases your, constant complaining that the marriage is not happy, not working, basically stinks without one single reference to a decisive action (*gasp* marital counseling, an end to cheating on your H) in an attempt to improve the marriage.

With this constant complaining and lack of any step to address the stated problem - the marriage - it doesn't surprise me at all that the marriage hasn't improved in years.

All I see is one long justification on how Lydia must continue her affair and why, and a bunch of bandwagon jumpers encouraging the illogical justification.

If you just want someone to agree with you and tell you that your affair is ok, I suggest trying a board that is not dedicated to saving and preserving marriages.