There are many burdens that we can carry alone but it is so often a great help to be able to talk to others in similar circumstances.
An incident occurred over the weekend that upset me and W a great deal. We went shopping in a retail store yesterday and I happened to see our youngest son and his wife in the same store. At the time my W was not with me since we had agreed to meet in another department later. The greeting was warm and happy for all three of us until my W joined us. The looks and atmosphere changed instantly to one of cold and curt forced civility on the part of our son and his wife. The four of us had only been together three times in the past year and the anger had never been so apparent to me as it was then. I felt so bad for W that I almost cried in the store but I naively hoped that she didn’t notice the change. When we got home however we both cried in each others’ arms.
I am aware that the family dynamics have changed a great deal but sometimes I cannot adapt. We have always loved our children and it is hard for us to accept how deep and wide the chasm between our family has grown. My oldest son has completely isolated himself from us. At first it was just his mother he was angry with but now he has stopped communicating with me also.
All I can say is that W and I are fortunate that we have each other.
I know that there are no easy answers but I feel like I have lost a large part of me by remaining by my W’s side.
We have offered to help pay for counseling for both boys but neither is willing to see a therapist.
I will take any suggestions.
Thanks for letting me voice my thoughts.

ULA,<p>I don't know how I missed your original post, but I went back and read it. Our situations are similar, but different. Our youngest is from an EMA, but my H knew that she wasn't his from the day I took the home pregnancy test. Our older 2 are now 11 1/2 and 9, and don't know, yet, of their sister's paternity. We do plan on letting all 3 know, but the time is not right yet. At this time, H and I are still working on our marriage, which has been slightly hindered with military deployment(which is ending April 18th!!), and so, we will be working together again soon. H has fully accepted Abbi, and loves her as much as her older siblings.<p>Now, let me see if I can put this into words, and hopefully help you and your W. I think that your sons need to figure this out for themselves. They are of an age(similar to my own) that they should realize that mistakes were made in the past, and they can't change that. They are also able to hold a major grudge against their mother, for not being honest in the first place. I honestly don't know how I would react if my parents told me that I or my sister or brother was only a half sibling, after 20 + years. My younger sister is just a year older than your youngest, and I know how upset she was when I revealed my A, and subsiquent pregnancy. I, basically, just left it alone, and let her work it out for herself. Of course, it will be harder for a son to work out when it is the mother's betrayal. I would just continue to offer support to both your W, and your sons! You are the only father your youngest has ever known, and, therefore, ARE his father in all the important ways. Give them some more time, but keep the lines of communication open.<p>Does your W lurk, read or post here? I would recommend showing her this site. We would love to offer her support, or advice. It is a great place to unload your burden to others.<p>I don't know if I helped out at all, but pray that your family can be just that, again, a family.<p>Tigger

Used,<p>I have read your posts and I have a question. How did it come about that a paternity test was done? I realized that there was a MM#2, what were the circumstances that led to the testing and the Dr.'s deciding that your sons needed to know?<p>I ask this because it may help to know this in order to see what they have been through. Then perhaps someone can offer some useful advice.<p>I will offer a guess based on little or no information. My guess is the Older son feels your W betrayed him as well as you. He wants to defend you and help you but with you working on rebuilding your marriage he cannot. You have sort of sided with the enemy and that may have made him lose respect for you. At least in the short term.<p>I suspect he feels your W fooled you badly for many years and is doing so now. Just a guess. I await some hard information to make a "better" [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] guess.<p>Yours is a truely tough situation. There have been a variety of guys who have posted here that found out about the paternity of their children long after they were born. Stilltrying is one of them. He hasn't posted in awhile, but look up his posts he is a very astute guy.<p>In any event, sorry I cannot offer anything useful, but hopefully someone will be able to help.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Just Learning
As much as I dislike repeating the event, I guess that I have not told the whole story on this web site.
I was alone at home (I did not completely buy into the business trip and was searching her computer) when I discovered a long e-mail describing W&#8217;s intent to rendezvous with MM2 and telling him of her past secret life as well as questioning the paternity of our second son. Needless to say I was overwhelmed and contemplated suicide. I went to the State Police and turned in my hunting weapons and while there they recommended that I go to the hospital and talk to someone. The psychiatrist gave me two choices, either have a family member accompany me and stay with me until W&#8217;s return in two days, or he would commit me to an institution for my safety. At the time I felt that I had no choice at all and I had them call my sons.
When the youngest son heard that I might not have been his father (during the initial confrontation with W) he was concerned about his health history, MM1 had died fairly young (53) as the result of a heart attack, and this was one of the reasons for the Paternity test. The other reason was my selfish need to know. I do regret that they had to find out at all but they really were a great comfort to me initially and I feel that I have grown closer to them as a result.
I feel really torn right now because I can see the anger in my sons, and I understand that it may be justified, but it also must be dealt with at some point in their lives. I can also feel my W&#8217;s anger because she feels that she has done everything that she can do, that is, accepting blame and apologizing both in writing and in person where possible. She feels that she was a good caring mother and over a year of what she feels is groveling is enough. We both have been told by our therapists that they need time and may never accept her, but they have no answers. Time at this point in our lives becomes a more precious commodity and we are perhaps too much of a hurry.
Tigger
No my W does not post here or anywhere else for two reasons. First she allowed herself to get wrapped up in a chat room and become involved with MM2 and she associates these sites with that event. Second I have encouraged her to join but she feels that she will be stoned without a trial if she participates. I can&#8217;t change her feelings with regards to these sites.<p>Courage
Whatever course you decide upon, there is always someone to tell you that you are wrong.
There are always difficulties arising which tempt you to believe that your critics are right.
To map out a course of action and follow it to and end requires courage.
Ralph Waldo Emerson<p>Usedlongago

ULA,<p>Well, I am a woman who has a child from a MM, and I am welcomed here, and always have been. The only time that someone is not welcome here is when the come to hurt others, not those who are honestly seeking help. If she is staying away, mainly for that reason, then she should not have to worry about it. If she would feel more comfortable starting with another woman in her situation(well in a way) I would be more than willing to exchange emails. I know that it would be like her asking her D, but maybe I can shead some light on the emotions your S's may be going through.<p>Let me know.<p>Tigger

ULA,<p>I apologize for asking something that triggers memories you would rather not bring back. Well, it is hard to argue with your counselors assessment. It is a common piece of advice around here that rebuilding marriages takes Time and Patience. I am sure you are aware of that.<p>Obviously I don't know a thing about the true dynamics of this situation, but a few ideas occurred to me.<p>Have you sat with your sons lately and really talked about the situation? Let them vent so to speak? My guess is that a year of apologies doesn't even begin to address what has happened.<p>I did a little math and it would seem that your W was having an affair with MM#1 throughout and perhaps before you two were married. If that is true, then it probably also true that your sons feels their lives were in many ways a lie. <p>I know it is sure true for betrayed spouses', but consider that your sons thought they lived in a family unit as traditionally defined. Only to decades later find out, that Mom didn't love Dad and was with another man constantly, and indeed their brother is a half-brother. My bet is that they both feel deeply betrayed by your W and since they don't need her like you apparently do there is little motivation to try and heal this right now.<p>My other guess is that they loved and had a deep respect for you and your W. The natural thing to do is support the one that has been hurt by the deception of the other spouse. Makes sense right? I suspect they did and do this, BUT you have excused your W's deception and even her second affair and so they don't really know how to help.<p>They don't want to be around your W right now, but in order to be around you they must be around her. Rather than be ugly, they have backed off, way off.<p>I guess my feeling is that now that a year has past it is time you talked with each of your sons again, privately. Let them tell you what they feel and then perhaps more healing can occur.<p>I suspect that they feel the pain of your betrayal even more deeply than you do. They want to be there for you, but with your W in the picture this is difficult.<p>I would strongly suggest to your W, that she get a grip. A year is not even long enough to truely heal most marriages from a simple affair, much less one that lasted 27 years plus paternity issues. It is very short sighted of her as well as insensitive of her to expect either of your sons to heal in this time. <p>She simply has no idea of the damage she has done in my very simple minded view of things. So talk with her and tell her to have patience, this will take a long time to heal to a tolerable level. I doubt that the scars will ever really go away.<p>This is such a sad situaton ULA. I do hope that she is getting counseling and that the two of you have come to understand why she did what she did. You sound like a very strong man. One your sons can be proud of.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Tigger
I certainly appreciate your gracious offer and I will pass it on to W. As you can imagine she is a very private person and feels very vulnerable right now so I do not know whether she will confide in anyone other than her therapist, but it is worth a try. Thanks.<p>Just Learning
Your observations are quite astute. W and I have spent many hours discussing many of these same things over and over.

I recently sent a letter to my oldest son expressing my sympathy for his pain, apologizing for my emotional distance when he was young and explaining that, that same distance was a factor in his mother making very poor choices beginning early in our marriage. I also offered to try to help him in any way that I could. I also told him how much it hurt me to feel like I had to make a choice between him and his mother. I have not had a response yet. I just hope that I haven't burned any bridges. <p>We feel that even before this trauma that he and his wife tended to blame all of their problems on their parents. I believe it was the thinking of the era and a result of perhaps placing too much emphasis on materialistic accomplishments vs. emotional development.<p>The youngest son and his wife had always respected our marriage and accepted our advice. They looked at it as ideal in light of the fact that many of their friends&#8217; parents had divorced or were in bad marriages. They did feel very betrayed when this was exposed.<p>Both boy's said that they had their mother on a pedestal and that illusion was shattered.

You are also quite correct in the assessment that there is not as much urgency for them to reconcile as there was for W and me. They are young and have career and family matters which seem much more pressing and not as hard to face.<p>W does realize how wide spread the effects of her mistakes were and how severe the consequences can be. But like almost all WS&#8217;s that I have read about they are anxious to put this behind them. She never conceived how much pain would be inflicted on everyone around her. Every thing concerning the whole affair just reopens her guilt box. She feels like she has been given a life sentence even though I have forgiven her. I too would like to move on but I know I will always have some memories to haunt me. <p>Thank you for your thoughts<p>Usedlongago

ULA,<p>I think rather than write to them, I would suggest a visit. Perhaps to see the Grandchild or whatever. Sit with your Sons particularly the oldest and just "talk". Talk about life, his job, his kids, his house, how he is feeling about the world in general. Perhaps seed the conversation a bit about your W and how you feel.<p>Let things flow abit ULA. This is probably not a topic that can be taken on in a headon fashion. We are talking about how your sons define themselves on levels that they are only now addressing. You are slightly older than I and my children are much younger, but I never realized until my father died 13 years ago how much I defined myself through him. And to an extent through my mother. <p>I suspect your children held you up on a pedestal as well. To see you hurt this bad, and betrayed to this level probably hurt them in ways they are having a hard time saying. Further, since both of your children are male, my suspicion is that your W's pregnancy by another man is affecting them in ways that she will never understand. That is on top of your youngest have the vision of his parentage shattered.<p>I realize you understand that this is all very deep or you and your W wouldn't be offering to pay for counseling. However, my guess is that they need one on one time with you. Time for them to see YOU functioning as you really are. My guess is that when they see you two together, they don't know if that is the real you or just the one doing anything to keep the marriage together. <p>ULA, I don't know what your role in the family dynamic was. I am sure it was not what you thought it was with regard to your W. But, I think now it is your unique position to be the middleman between your sons and your W. They need to know you, like they perhaps never have. They need confidence in you and your strength. Particularly, if they understand that you are continuing this marriage because you WANT to rather than thinking you HAVE to. Do you see what I mean??? <p>If they gain this understanding, my bet they will open up more. Particuarly your oldest son. My bet is that you are indeed his IDOL.<p>You are right from everything written here the WS wants to apologize and then move on. AFter all they have had years to deal with the reality of this situation. No one else in your family has. So remind your W when she gets impatient with things, that she has had much longer to address the issues than all the rest of you.<p>You cannot make your sons become comfortable with your W as you well know. But, if they know you better, they will accept your choice better and perhaps it will lead to them accepting your W better.<p>Frankly, I cannot fathom an affair as long as hers. I cannot fathom what she did. But, I can fathom as a parent, although a father, what she must feel for her two children to move away from her. It must hurt alot. She has my sympathy. You, Sir, have my respect.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Just Learning<p>I do have to thank you for your suggestions. I have planned to try to meet both my sons alone as soon as logistics allow. We tried the suggestions of W&#8217;s therapist (putting on a united front) without success and now I am willing to try this. Perhaps they don&#8217;t appreciate exactly where I stand with them, our marriage and their mother and how hard it has been to get there.
I want to thank you also for your parting words. Outside of the workplace I have not had anyone say that they respected me for quite a while. I felt like a fog had lifted and I cried tears of joy. I didn&#8217;t consider myself that needy but I guess I was. It&#8217;s funny how much rebuilding your self-esteem requires after a shock like this.<p>Tigger<p>I did tell W of your offer and I don&#8217;t know if she will take advantage of it but thanks anyway. <p>
God Bless<p>Usedlongago

ULA, <p>As long as she knows that there are other's out there, willing to help. And, she wouldn't be judged here. I was never made to feel as if I didn't belong, and neither would she.<p>Tigger

ULA,<p>I think that your W's C is probably right you two do need a united front. However, I think that this issue isn't just about an affair. It is deeper than that. Because it is, your sons need to see how you have handled it. What YOUR choices have been. Where you see your future.<p>My guess is they need to see that while you have been deeply hurt (and perhaps the word victimized applies), that you are NOT a VICTIM. You have taken control of your life. YOU have decided to stay with your W, because YOU want to.<p>I don't know your relationship with your W. You haven't really said much about her other than she apologized, feels like she is groveling, and is angry. I suspect that the anger doesn't go over well with you or with the sons. My bet is the groveling is her own interpretation of her pride being hurt, and in a year she hasn't even come close to apologizing enough.<p>However, I would guess that "humble" is probably the attitude that would work best. It seems to me if she is that and has really decided to make the marriage work after all of these years, then your sons will come to an accomodation, IF they know you are in fact leading the parade not just following it.<p>ULA, let your sons see how you are doing and talk to them about what YOU think of your future. My bet is that they aren't sure they respect you as they should. It may take awhile, but be there for them.<p>This will take time, but as I said before, you are going to be the instrument that pulls all of this together. If they see you heal, forgive, and lead this situation they will come around. <p>That is my guess anyway. <p>That is why they probably need to see you without your W for awhile. So that they can talk and perhaps even be blunt about all of this.<p>If you don't mind me being curious, what was your W's reasoning (yeah right! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) in all of this? Why did she stay married to you, if OM was so great? Has she quit greiving OM's death? Is she serious about all of this and making a marriage with you that you can enjoy and like? Does she have a clue about how you really feel and the depths of your sense of betrayal?<p>I ask these out of curiosity, but also to understand if things have been patched up or healed. There is a difference, and I think that difference will be important to your Sons as well.<p>Sorry to be nosey, and I wish I could offer something really concrete. I do hope your W comes to respect what you have done by rebuilding the marriage. It is truely her only hope of rebuilding a relationship with her children.<p>Ironic isn't it? You are her only real hope of having a decent relationship with her children, and she basically wasn't married to you for 27 years. The world is a very strange place isn't ULA.<p>As you can see my thinking on this,I think it is and will become clearer why you do have my respect. You have/had the power to destroy the rest of her world and you did not. I am very impressed so should your sons be. They will be, if they aren't now.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Just Learning<p>For some reason I feel the need for a lengthy reply so bear with me.<p>W and I have talked at length about why each of us has stayed through all of this. She has often asked me how I could possibly stay with her now knowing what I now know. She feels that she has always loved me (I know you may find this strange but I believe her, since I don&#8217;t think she really knew what love meant at the time. I feel she had compartmentalized love in the same way she did the A&#8217;s.) and I have always been her security. We have had a lot of good times, felt like were close friends, and enjoy each other&#8217;s company. We feel that 42 years of being together (we met in high school and have been together ever since) and 37 years of marriage, even acknowledging serious flaws, is worth saving. After all we have become the major part of each other&#8217;s &#8220;history&#8221;.<p>W met MM1 at work about 2 ½ years after we were married and began seeing him on an average of once a month after that. He had a W and 3 children and they mutually agreed that they would never leave their respective families. They were terribly clever to have kept this a complete secret for all of those years because I never suspected and I don&#8217;t think his wife ever suspected either although I will never ask her. MM1 was giving her the attention that my W felt I was denying her. She did not grieve at first perhaps because she was unaware of his death until after he was buried and we (W, I, and both therapists) feel that MM2 was an extension of MM1 in her mind. After d-day, and a discovery by me of lingering contact via e-mail to MM2, she held a ritual burial for MM1. I could see immediately a significant change in her. It seemed to bring down the walls she had built around herself.<p>She is very serious about the work we are doing to create a new beginning for us, and we are happier with each other than we have ever been. We see, and like, the new people that have been formed from the ashes.

Yes, she truly understands how deeply I was hurt since she stood by me and comforted me through the self-destructive phase, and I have told her from my heart the magnitude of what it did to me. I think her recent depression is one undeniable sign of her acceptance of guilt and it is probably necessary for her continued growth. She seems to be pulling out of the depression slowly now and it will be good to have her back.<p>All in all we feel that we are healing remarkably well and are looking forward to a new life together, since retirement is only a few months away for me and only a year or so for W.

I guess I could have destroyed her world as she knew it but it never occurred to me to do it. She is the first woman I ever loved and that has never stopped. I feel that if I had tried to destroy her, it would have destroyed me as well.

I have to chuckle about your suggestion of humility. If you knew her you would not have mentioned it. It is not in her make up and I doubt if it will ever be. She has lost a lot of her spirit but I wouldn&#8217;t want her to lose it all. There must be another option for her. <p>Thanks for listening.<p>Usedlongago

ULA,<p>You said something that is worth exploring. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I have to chuckle about your suggestion of humility. If you knew her you would not have mentioned it. It is not in her make up and I doubt if it will ever be. She has lost a lot of her spirit but I wouldn’t want her to lose it all.
There must be another option for her. <hr></blockquote><p>This concerns me abit with regard to your sons. Now I realize that we all use words which appear to have the same meaning, but my suspicion is that if discovery hasn't really changed her in profound ways then I suspect your sons will have a hard time.<p>When I say humility, I don't mean to suggest cowering in the corner. I mean a deep realization that "just perhaps" I don't have all of the answers. That I am flawed in some serious ways and that I appreciate people and their help. <p>This isn't the same as having no spirit. It is more about ones approach to other people, a willingness to see the other point of view and consider it as valid.<p>Is this making more sense??<p>One last question has she known all along about your youngest son, or was it just a suspicion?<p>What I am probing here for is a better insight so that as we talk my suggestions might become useful.<p>By the way, congratulations!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Retirement in a few months. I am envious. I think I'll need to go 3 more years, although I could retire now. You see I am a slow learner [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] . My oldest is 21 and youngest is 14. I am not sure I am ready to be home retired bugging both W and yougest son. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I do hope you find a way into your sons heart and get them to see things differently. I also hope your W appreciates what she has in you.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Dear ULA,<p>I am writing because I am on two sides of the infidelity/pregnancy triangle.<p>I think that I may have written to you once before when you first posted your story. Back then I was using the login name of "Mrs. Job."<p>I am on this board because my H had a 7-year affair and a child at the end of the affair. The pregnancy was enough to shock him out of his denial that he "wasn't hurting anybody."<p>I too suffered severe depression and actually did check myself in to the hospital. I have always been opposed to having fire arms of any type in the house for exactly the reason of suicide and also because of accidents with children and guns, and because seemingly normal couples will sometimes have such a huge fight that although there is no history of violence one of them will grab a weapon in a moment of blind fury. So, anyway, when I had stockpiled enough pills to kill a horse, had sealed up the garage to make it airtight and when I finally went shopping for a hand gun, I knew it was time to check myself in. Best thing I ever did for myself.<p>So on to how I sit at another corner of the affair/pregnancy trapazoid. (In adoption it is called a triad or triangle since there 1) adoptive parents, 2) birth parents and 3) the child. In an affair with a child there is the WS, the BS, the OP (othere man or woman) and the child born of the affair. Since it is all lopsided and twisted around I decided it is a tapazoid, not a rectangle or square.)<p>My mother and my father married because my mother became pregnant by my father. She was not in love with him, but he loved her deeply. He says now that she never wanted a physical relationship with him but that he pressured her into it. Two weeks after the marriage, she lost the baby and she immediately asked my father to move out since for her, the child that they had lost was her only reason for the marriage.<p>They were separated briefly and my mother reuinted with her previous boyfriend. She had been deeply in love with him, but he cared not much for her. They got back together and she got pregnant by him. (I call him my birth father or if I am in a really snotty mood "the sperm donor.") She realized that my birth father still did not love her, wanted her only for sex, and worst of all was heading quickly down the path of alcoholism.<p>Meanwhile, my father, my dad, the man who loved me and raised me, wanted to reconcile with my mom. He told her, and meant it, that it did not matter to him that he was not my bio father. He would love her and me. He would raise me. He did all that. They got back together (they had never divorced) and they went on to have three more girls. Unfortunately their marriage did not last forever. He worked too many hours, ignored family obligations and she felt alone and abandoned. He fell into the trap that many American men fall into. Provide, provide, provide, climb the corporate ladder, assume that wife and children are OK.<p>My parents did not tell me until I was 35 years old that my dad was not my bio-father. I think that I had suspected something since I was 22 and my wedding pictures came back. It was the first time I realized that I don't look like my father
(although I look very much like my mother). My H says thats a good thing--my mother is much more beautiful than my father is handsome). I asked H to stop saying that as I would give anything to have one or two of his features. They only told me the truth because our family was undergoing genetic testing because of a birth defect that I have. My sisters wanted to know if they were carriers of this so that they could make informed choices about having children by birth.<p>I can't begin to tell you how devestated I was. I felt like I had lost everything of my father. I felt that my whole life was a lie. That every time my mother said "your father" to me that she was lying, that every time my father let me call him "dad" that he was committing a lie of ommission.
I now know that I was wrong. He was and is and always will be my father, my dad. He was there for my birth, my baptism, my first day of school, my graduation. He walked me down the aisle when I married. He provided complete and total love and devotion. He loves me in a complete way that no one else in my life has ever been able to do. When he looks at me, he glows with pride.<p>I asked him how he could treat me as "his own." How come he didn't look at me and see my mother's affair? He got angry. He said "You are my own and don't ever say that again. You are mine, my child, my daughter and nothing will ever change that. I was there for every important moment in your life, except the least important--your conception. I don't look at you any differently than any of your sisters because you are no different." It helped resolve the conflicts for me.<p>Now about telling siblings. Some of them took it well, some where very upset. My dad did remarry and have three more daughters, so now I knew that I had no biological connection to these three young women I thought of as sisters. I never made the distinction of "half-sisters." It was never important to me. I felt a loss when I realized we shared no genetic connection, but I soon got over it. The facts of my conception have not changed how I feel about them nor how they feel about me.
One of my sisters that I grew up with, took the news quite hard. She was more shocked and grieved than angry. She was very concerned for me and how I was taking it. She too seems to have resolved her conflicted thoughts and emotions about this.<p>My mother expressed great humility throughout all of this. She apologized to me (repeatedly) but never groveled. She understands that she was very young (only 20) and that she made some serious mistakes. <p>The difference in my family is that my father knew and accepted the facts of my paternity. You were never given that chance. But I think that if you speak honestly with your sons about the difficulty of finding this out, how you struggled to redefine what constitutes a family (not biology, but love and shared memories) and tell them that you and your wife have grieved, sorted out and moved on, I think that they will begin to forgive someday. But just like you, they have had their world turned upside down. Much of their history probably feels untrue to them right now.<p>Part of what helped me sort this out is that my husband and I are about to adopt and I don't want our children to confuse family with genetics and I don't want to confuse them any longer either.<p>Hope this helps,
MJ

Just Learning<p>In answer to your questions, and yes I do understand and appreciate what you are trying to gain:<p>W has changed considerably in many ways as a result of this. She is more than willing to listen to others point of view and is open to any suggestions no matter how hurtful they may be. She has lost the arrogance and pride that got her through in the past and was a front that she initially showed the boys after returning from her last tryst. W is a much different woman than the one that we all thought we knew 13 months ago, and I for one like the change. I have a picture of a humble person in my mind that is not someone I would choose to live with. Perhaps my image is nowhere the true definition of a humble person. Humility is a hard thing to quantify and I took it to black and white extremes. Sorry.<p>
Yes, I think she knew from the very beginning that youngest was MM1's and went into denial about it until recently. Three things make me say this. First her mention of it in her e-mail to MM2. Second when I initially confronted her with a blunt question (who is *****'s father?), she answered without hesitation. Finally his looks give it away, since he looks very much like MM1 and has none of my features. <p>Mary Jane<p>Thanks for your insight. I can see some parallels and hopefully I can adapt some to my case. I think if I can convince the boys that I am in control of this and I have accepted the situation, like your father did, they may soften their stance. We can only hope.<p>God Bless <p>Used Long Ago

ULA,<p>I think I see the point was probing for. Let me try this out on you.<p>You said: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>She has lost the arrogance and pride that got her through in the past and was a front that she initially showed the boys after returning from her last tryst. W is a much different woman than the one that we all thought we knew 13 months ago, and I for one like the change. <hr></blockquote><p>I guess here is the obvious point and one I would bet that you, W, and counselors have talked about. If your boys haven't been around your W much since the initial return from her tryst, then the image they have of her is on of arrogance and pride. A woman that could do what she wanted to H--- with the rest of them and you.<p>If she tended to be pretty ... for lack of a better word self-centered and contained (I imagine she would be with the secrets she needed to keep.) then I am sure they picked this up growing up as well. <p>So the image they have is one of a woman whose own desires and interests come first. Given the lengths she carried out her affairs and other lies there is little wonder they would want little or nothing to do with her.<p>Am I getting close here? <p>Well, if this is a little true, then their image of you is sinking because they might believe that she has control of you again. That you are too weak to make any other choice than the one you have made.<p>Hence, they need to see you, talk with you, learn where your boundaries are, and understand your relationship with your W. Hence my question about humble. If you W has indeed lowered her barriers, and behaves differently (I don't mean like a zombie), then my bet they will begin to intertain the idea of seeing you differently and seeing her differently.<p>I think to a large extent this all hinges on you. If she is now answerable to you, if you have set guidelines as to what will happen if she fails you again in any way, and she has accepted them, then my bet they may feel that they can begin the process of rebuilding trust.<p>You relayed a comment or question that your W asked about having to pay for this the rest of her life. I don't know the right answer, but my answer would be yes. Yes, she does have to pay, because what she did has affected her H and her sons for the rest of rest of their lives. She can never go back to what she was, that is the penalty, and what she has done will be remember by all concerned for the rest of their lives. She cannot hide from that nor can she run from that.<p>My feeling her payment is that she will have to be a better person for the rest of her life.<p>I realize that I am talking about the woman you have loved for 42 years. But, she needs to realize she did some amazingly damaging things to the very people she professed to love. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I have a picture of a humble person in my mind that is not someone I would choose to live with. Perhaps my image is nowhere the true definition of a humble person. Humility is a hard thing to quantify and I took it to black and white extremes. Sorry. <hr></blockquote><p>No need to apologize ULA. I used the word humble to mean someone who has gained an awareness of human failings and appreciates the strengths and weakness in themselves as well as other people. I have been fortunate enough to work with some exceedingly bright people in my life and work.
Some regarded their position and their abilities as the OK to treat others poorly. Or to make themselves appear better at the cost of others. In short they are arrogant. However, others view their gifts as just that gifts. The are invariable polite, never use other people, are very generous with credit, and do their best not to hurt people with their abilities. In my opinion those are humble people.<p>So when I asked about your W I was asking if she had changed into someone who isn't arrogant. Someone your sons might like to be around, and would understand that you want to be around her. 42 years of history is a lot to give up, but would you have given it up IF your W continuted to act like she has done in the past. I suspect your sons need to know that answer, before relationships can be improved.<p>That was where I was going with my question. I hope that I haven't offended you in my discussion of your W. It is not my intent nor is it my intent to make her into a villian. But, I must admit I don't understand many things about her behavior. Of course, I know almost nothing about her or you.<p>In any event, I hope this is helping answer the questions you came here to ask.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Just Learning <p>I wanted to give you an update more for my benefit than anything else but if anyone has any suggestions or perhaps help in prioritizing my agenda. <p>The reason I didn&#8217;t respond earlier is that I just spent a couple of days in the hospital with chest pains. Just what I need to complicate my life right now. It turns out that I did not have a heart attack but two of my arteries are clogged enough to be a concern. It is frustrating in that I have tried to live a healthy lifestyle with vigorous exercise and strict low fat diet for the past 11 years and all of a sudden my efforts seem to have fallen short. Enough whining. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I have made arrangements to meet with my sons on Sunday before the Super Bowl (it happens to be the oldest son&#8217;s birthday) and have a lunch and chat with them alone. I do want to catch up on their lives because, with them living so far apart, I get to see them so seldom together.
I plan to approach them first by showing them how happy I am in the present situation, and showing them that I, alone, am in control of my life and I am remaining with their mother not out of need but because she has proven to me that she is a different person than the one they are familiar with. In essence she is a new wife in a new marriage with me. I also plan to tell them that I feel as if they do not respect me any more and see if that opens a meaningful dialogue. My problem is that I have never been comfortable with a meeting driven by an agenda and I don&#8217;t know if I can cover the things that need saying in the few hours available. Also I have trouble directing the conversation to something meaningful. It is so much easier talking about non-controversial things. <p>I do appreciate the time and thought you have given to my problems. It is good to have a listening post.As an aside, I have a new perspective on a woman&#8217;s need to just talk and be heard. I know it has done me a world of good.<p>Usedlongago

ULA,<p>I think you have a good plan set for this Sunday. The biggest thing is you need to bring it up in a loving and calm manner. If you bring it up as if you are confronting them about them not respecting you, they will automatically go into defence mode(nice analogy for Super Bowl Sunday [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ) I agree that they need to see that your W, their Mother has and is working on her past mistakes. And, that you are willing to work with her, and that you both love eachother very much and need the support of your boys to have complete healing. Yes, your marriage can survive if they don't support you, but it would be so much better for you and your W if they could look at this situation as the adults they now are, and see that it is in the past, and you can't change anything in the past, just make the most of it here and now, and let God worry about tomorrow.<p>Don't know if that made any sence, I've been helping the older 2 with homework, and taking care of the baby too. Hope it does make sence, and that I helped in some way.<p>Tigger

ULA,<p>Best of luck to you. I think Tigger is right. Don't confront them directly but discuss how you are doing, how your W is doing. You might mention how much she has changed and is working on things. How much you enjoy being with her now. <p>I think you get the drift. That leaves them sort of a free reign to contribute there feelings about things. I suspect this will take more than one meeting with them, but it is the start of the healing. <p>I am glad your health is OK. Do take care of yourself with regard to you condition.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Hi ULA.<p>There is something that just came into mind.<p>It is better for your sons to make an imperfect peace with their mom that not make the effort. And the reason for this is that if your W dies, the chance for them and she will be gone.<p>As an example of what I'm talking about, I remember a woman friend from work whose father cheated on her mom, his W and C's were devastated, allied themselves with their mom, and she filed for divorce. The father's A died a short time after the divorce and he began making peace with his exW and C's. He started dating his exW,both fell in love again, and despite the C's better wishes their mom remarried their father. All the C's with the exception of one, begrudginly made peace with their father. One day the father decides to pick up a giant size pizza after work for family dinner. As all of them sat down to eat, the father suffers a massive heart attack and dies. Naturally everybody grieved his death but in time they healed and went on with their lives. Except the C that did not forgive his father, according to my woman friend from work, every anniversary of her father's death, her brother decides to drown his sorrow in alcohol. She beleives, as well as I, that this is because he did not make peace with his father when he was alive.<p>Something for your sons to think about ULA.<p>Joe<p>[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: justanotherjoe ]</p>