Hello All,

I’ve told my story on this board before but I thought about some OC conversations my H and I had during the really rough times, and then the more recent ones (7+ years later) right before he left for good and divorced me. I found the 180 he did and his shift of allegiance and loyalties to OW was shocking, which is sadly demonstrated when comparing the two conversations below.

When I learned there were two OC in 1992, my H and I had already reconciled. He had lied about the existence of 2nd OC. When I found out, we sat in our family room that day, all day, and had one of the most serious talks we’ve ever had, and here’s how it went. This may sound weird, but I can almost quote the highlights of the conversations word for word, they’re engrained in my memory forever.

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Me: I don’t know if I can do this, one OC was hard enough to take, but two? What are we going to do, how in the world are we supposed to deal with this unbelievable situation? How can I cope with two OW and two OCs? I don’t think I can do this.

H: <sobbing>I don&#8217;t want anything to do with those women and their babies, they got pregnant deliberately and got what they wanted. They burned me! OW #1 is a IV drug addict and violent, and I don&#8217;t even know ONS OW #2. I love you Resilient, I promise I will never do this again, I&#8217;ll even sign a contract, I promise.

Me: How do I know you won&#8217;t blame me 10 years from now by making this my fault that you&#8217;re not in their lives. How do I know you won&#8217;t resent me for all of this when they become older and you have changed your mind?

H: That won&#8217;t happen. I won&#8217;t change my mind. I promise you. I told you I&#8217;ll sign a contract saying so. I already know to expect a couple of angry teenage boys on our doorstep one day. I will take that responsibility, it&#8217;s mine. Being married, and with you is all I want, I don&#8217;t want anyone else, only you. I went and tried holding those babies to feel some connection and I felt nothing. Those women and their babies aren&#8217;t my family, you are.

Me: What about how those boys will feel about me, It&#8217;s not my fault you were so careless and thoughtless. It&#8217;s not my fault you don&#8217;t want them in our lives. They&#8217;ll blame and hate me for their father not being there for them. They&#8217;ll think I forced this on you.

H: I&#8217;ll explain that it was my choice. That their mothers and I were not married or in-love and I made some bad decisions and wasn&#8217;t thinking straight, and that you are my wife and family and that I love you. That I&#8217;m responsible for all of this mess. I will take all the blame. No one will hate you because you didn&#8217;t do any of this, you&#8217;re an innocent party, it&#8217;s my responsibility. Please believe me.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well I believed him, and somehow we got thru it. And &#8220;No&#8221;, I never had my H sign a contract. Felt it was ridiculous.

So we, of course, would pay CS and there would be no participation in the boys lives. We went to a MC for 1+ years, we hired a paternity attorney, my H wrote two no contact letters explaining our decision to OWs, and that, was that. For nearly a year ONS OW harassed us through the mail. Sent horrible cards and letters calling us all sorts of names, threatening me, saying how my H didn&#8217;t care about her and her son, how he used her for one night and threw her away. By our attorney&#8217;s advice, my H finally wrote another letter to her stating we&#8217;d go legal if she didn&#8217;t stop the letters. She eventually did.

Flash forward 7+ years later. My H has started secretly seeing the boys, and in addition, he is having an A with the ONS OW. This is Discovery day, and here&#8217;s our conversation:
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H: It&#8217;s your fault I haven&#8217;t been with my boys the last 7 years. It&#8217;s your fault I&#8217;ve missed all those important years with them. Because of you I have hurt an entire family. You burned me by not letting me see my boys.

Me: <sobbing> This is what YOU wanted. We did what you wanted. You said those women burned you. This was your decision, your responsibility.

H: You know I would have said anything to get back with you, I didn't mean it. Every day for the last 7 years I have woke up feeling guilty and have had to hide it from you. Those boys needed me, they&#8217;re my flesh and blood, my family. ONS OW went thru hell raising my boy all by herself, She was sick and needed me.

Me: I can&#8217;t believe you&#8217;re saying this. You&#8217;ve made me to blame for all of this, I did nothing wrong. ONS OW is making you believe I&#8217;m to blame and now you are agreeing with her??? How could you! This was your decision, no one forced you to do anything. Why don&#8217;t you come clean and tell her the truth? Tell her it was your decision.

H: She has already suffered enough, she needed me in my boy&#8217;s life. You knew this would happen, you even predicted it years ago when we had that conversation in the family room. This shouldn&#8217;t come as a surprise, everything you said has come true.

Me: <still sobbing> You promised me you wouldn&#8217;t do this. I feel like I&#8217;m in a nightmare, How did I end up to blame for all of this? Why are you not taking responsibility, why aren&#8217;t you remembering your promises to me?

H: Promises? A person can only keep a promise for so long. You know that.
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Pretty messed up. Just amazing.

Like I&#8217;ve said before, I don&#8217;t know what I could have done differently, maybe I should have listened closer to that tiny voice of doubt inside of me thinking he was only running to me for protection. Or maybe I should have just walked away.

What&#8217;s my point you ask?

Just like Tigger4jdt&#8217;s said in her recent post &#8220;There is no Right or Wrong solution&#8221; and that is so true. Yet if I could offer one piece of advice from my experience with this situation, I would say to seriously consider the future in your decision making, time stampedes by and tomorrow is only on the horizon. And more importantly, when making those tough decisions, to do what is right for you, not only for your marriage. And if you have nagging doubts, explore them, don&#8217;t ignore them.

I&#8217;m not posting this to try and frighten anyone. And I apologize if I have. I just wanted to share how my situation changed so drastically.

Prayers,
Jo

<small>[ January 08, 2003, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

Jo,<p>You have been through SO much! I have been following some of you more recent problems with your xH on GQII, and have to say that you are one strong woman! <p>You are so right about ignoring that small voice of doubt! And of leaving things "open" for all possibilities.<p>Love,<p>Tigger

Jo,
I just read your post. I have the same doubts that you had seven years ago. I had a very similiar conversation with my H.<p>OC is 3 months old and OW has not yet file for CS. My H called her to get paternity test done but she just hung up on him. She has not talked to him since March when she asked for money to help pay some medical bills. I found out he payed them.<p>OC was living with her parents and she finally told them in April and they kicked her out but came around and I think are giving her money. She has her own place and is a daycare worker. She is not getting help from the state I believe just from her parents and her current boyfriend. Not sure though. I do know she is not on W-2.<p>I believe someone must be helping her because she can't make it on her own.. Not a daycare salary.<p>She does not want nothing to do with my H right now.<p>my H says he does not know what he wants. If wants to part in OC life. But he told his friend that he wanted joint custody and wanted to see him.<p>He never told me this he said that he told her this because she would tell OW and see what she does. <p>I have been in a depression every since OC was born in October. <p>He does not think I can handle having the OC around and he would not go for joint custody mainly because of me. He said it is not right to be the OC around here because it was his mistake and he needs to deal with it not me.<p>I think about the future and I have my doubts about him not wanting to be part of the OC life. He is justing saying it just because of me.<p>I fear that he will regret it in the end. I told him this and he said that it is his problem.<p>I do not know what to do. He admits that he is not sure.<p>I believe that OC might not be his because she said that slept around but did not sleep with anyone else in Januruary. But she has refuesed the paternity test. <p>Today is the day that he decided to have sex with her a year ago.<p>Dawn<p>
I still have my doubts that he does not want to be a part in the kids life. He told me that they have not gotten a paternity test. I believe this because OW does not seem that he wants my H a part of the child's life. I do not understand why.

Hi Dawn,<p>I'm so sorry you have to be here, and have this difficult situation in front of you, one where you and OC are innocent parties. I know the anguish you're feeling. <p>A couple things: It's very important to protect yourself, and not just your marriage, legally speaking. And in doing so, you and H should retain an attorney. He most likely will advise a DNA test, regardless of what OW is saying regarding her financial needs. Because as you can see from my post, things can drastically change. <p>Dawn, first you need to figure out what YOU want and what you can not only deal with, but what you can live with for the next 18 years and possibly beyond (thru a lifetime). Be true to yourself. You are not a bad person if you can't handle it or if you need to walk away. Everyone and every situation is different. <p>So, with that said, when you talk with your H regarding his feelings about visitation/custody, what is his body language? Do his actions match his words? To me it sounds like he is in doubt and doesn't want to hurt you. <p>If I had my situation to do over, I would have never revealed any feelings I had to my H regarding the situation until AFTER he had told me what HE wanted. You know what they say about hind-sight.<p>What I can tell you Dawn is because you sense that doubt in your H and because you feel it in you, you should keep your options open, meaning if you are open to participating in the OC's life, then don't lay down any hard and fast decisions. Perhaps tell your H that you don't know what the future holds regarding possibilities with the OC. That you know feelings and things can change, and you are willing to discuss it and possibly work with it when the time comes. Be as honest as you can with yourself and your H. If you don't know and are confused and fearful "say you don't know and are confused and fearful". <p>When leaving your heart and options open for new possibilities, time will then be your ally.<p>I hope I've helped. I know the struggles you're experiencing. In this situation the word "fair" cannot be nailed down. <p>Love,
Jo

You didn't frighten me...but I so appreciate the sober warning...times and people change...I know I change daily...(and hopefully for the better!) in our case, my H had two years to make his decision. He still chose no contact. I asked him the same thing you asked your H. "You're not going to blame me down the road...." etc.<p>Truth is, we don't even know if we have a tomorrow. I appreciate this reminder as I know that times and people change. I will not fear it in the future, but I am taking steps now to make sure that I can care for my four children myself. I made up my mind that I will not be caught with my pockets empty. I am going back to school and get my degree.<p>I will plan for the future, but I will also be prepared.<p>Thanks again for sharing...you sound like you have had your fair share of heartache also.
Hugs and prayers to you,
Twiisty

Resilient,
Thank you for sharing this. I think what you are saying is so very important. One thing I have learned from all of this is to listen to what I'm feeling.
I really believe if I would have done so from the start, I would not even have to be here right now. Everything that had happened (which I told myself time and time again that I was nuts when it was going on)was going on. I listen to my heart very carefully now.I'm happy to say it tells me good things.

So sorry you have had such a rough time. I hope your furture holds wonderful things for you. I feel you surely deserve some peace.
with love flowerseed

This is exactly why I would never stay with my H if he didn't act like a father to his OC - which he does willingly. Otherwise, what kind of man is he? And it always WILL come back to haunt us if we stick by them while they choose to ignore their kids. I still say if they don't want to be there for their own kids, they aren't worth a thing!

Emily, <p>My husband is a fabulous father to our children. I know that he always will be. I don't think that his descisions regarding oc are an indication of his fathering skills whatsoever. <p>I'm in similar shoes as Dawn right now, not knowing. Our xow is willing to get test and so is my husband. It's the close relative who is rumored to be an equation in this problem that won't be tested.<p>I am almost 99% sure that my husband won't ever change his mind about contact (I know, you were too resilient). The difference here is that this is learned behavior from his father and it's a common occurrence among his unmarried brother's. One has at least 2 children, one is with a married woman. The other has 5 that he pays for and it's rumored that he has at least that many more. My husband's father has been married 3 times and has no contact with any of his prior 2 children. Hey, maybe I *should* be scared!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>My husand does not hang out with his brother's much anymore. He was when he had the affair, though. "bird's of a feather flock together" My husband has never given me any indication that he would EVER abandon our children.<p>Why is oc different? I suppose because he didn't participate in the pregnancy, labor/birth, diaper changing etc and there's just not that bond.<p>I am the one who has qualms about no contact. I feel that the "right" (totally not judging those of you who have no contact) thing to do for that child is to do that. He's forming his beliefs and attitudes right now that will affect him for the rest of his life. I am not. Yes, I will be affected, but not like a child would be. This scares me to death!!!!!!<p>Some of our husbands may resent us for so-called "keeping them away from oc". There are other's who may be resentful because they are forced by their wives to have contact. None of know for sure and we're all doing the best that we can.<p>t.l.

p.s. even though at this point, my husband chooses no contact (if child is his), he is still worth something. alot, in fact. i know that, our children know that and i bet God knows that too.

tinlizzy ,
I think someone has the bonniebb"s. I think you have been here long enough to have encountered her.
My h has never wanted anything to do with oc either and I don't feel he ever will. He to is a wonderful father and I'm proud of him. My h is so
ashamed of what has happened and feels he betrayed not only me but also our daughter.
The only time we were in the same room as oc was when dna was done. He wouldn't even give the crude that has attached herself to our lives for 18 yr. the satisfaction of looking at her kid.
As long as the words match the actions I feel we can rest assured that things will be just fine.
with love, flowerseed<p>[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: flowerseed ]</p>

flowerseed, <p>oh yes! I have had a taste of the bonniebb's and it's very bitter!<p>I don't understand why people who have no reason to be here, take the time to post. Don't they have children to take care of? Husband's to steal? Post at gloryb? <p>other people's opinion's are certainly welcome, but if they haven't been in our shoes, there's not much advice or wisdom that can change the wisdom that I have gained from my experience and the experience of other's who have walked in these shoes.<p>This is a MARRIAGE BUILDERS site, hence the name. It's really not a place for debate. Maybe there could be a debate folder so that those who wish to do so, can. <p>Sorry, I'm getting of the track of what this thread was about.<p>Resilient, I do want to say that I am so sorry that your husband did the turn-around on you. Very unfair. I hope that your story *did* scare everyone here...at least a little. I know that I for one, will make sure to check in with my husband periodically to see if there's been a change in his feelings about oc. I want to learn the easy way [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Thanks for sharing your story.<p>tinlizzy

Hi Jo. Wow, I never knew all this. Most of it, but not all...<p>You couldn't have done anything different, even if you waited to hear what he said first - wouldn't have mattered, hunny.<p>Your exH made his choices again and again. They were very bad choices and there's nothing you could have done to make him see his folly...<p>It's so sad sometimes...<p>Amazing how your H did a 180 like that though... I was actually just talking to my C about something similar to this. For the longest time, my H would do something that hurt me, then turn around and say "you should leave me, I'm no good, I'll keep hurting you." But what he was REALLY doing was putting the blame on me. If I let him stay, then it's MY FAULT if he screws up again - not his. He avoided being in charge of his life and managed to turn the decisions that went wrong into things that I forced him to do. <p>Weird, huh? I wonder if your exH went through something similar and that's how the blame game came about...<p>It almost sort of makes sense in a twisted sort of way. If I tell you I'm not a good driver and it may not be a good idea to get in my car, but you choose to anyway, then it's not my fault if we get into an accident and you get hurt. Cuz' you chose to be in the car. Doesn't matter if I was driving and caused the accident...<p>Uh. And it's so hard to not get in the car, to take your own instead...<p>HbH

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by hurtbyhubby:
<strong>
Amazing how your H did a 180 like that though... I was actually just talking to my C about something similar to this. For the longest time, my H would do something that hurt me, then turn around and say "you should leave me, I'm no good, I'll keep hurting you." But what he was REALLY doing was putting the blame on me. If I let him stay, then it's MY FAULT if he screws up again - not his. He avoided being in charge of his life and managed to turn the decisions that went wrong into things that I forced him to do. <p>Weird, huh? I wonder if your exH went through something similar and that's how the blame game came about...<p>It almost sort of makes sense in a twisted sort of way. If I tell you I'm not a good driver and it may not be a good idea to get in my car, but you choose to anyway, then it's not my fault if we get into an accident and you get hurt. Cuz' you chose to be in the car. Doesn't matter if I was driving and caused the accident...<p>Uh. And it's so hard to not get in the car, to take your own instead...<p>HbH</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You are one smart Cookie, HbH.<p>Yep, that's exactly what our Therapist said my H saw things. If I stayed with him, I was the one who was sick or messed up. And it was my fault I was being hurt.<p>x-H had several sessions with her (Therapist) and she was shocked at his philosophy and justifications regarding flagrantly shurking responsibility onto others for his mis-deeds (mis-deeds?, I'm being so kind today) how about his F'k Ups. Yeah, there we go. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I never knew he looked at things that way. To me that says he is a "User" of people. And once they fail to serve his purpose, he disposes of them. But it's not his fault because they were warned, they knew he was wired to F'k Up.<p>Pretty twisted, huh HbH.<p>If you met my x-H you would really like him, he is so sweet and charming, esp with females. Just seems so unassuming and genuine. It's all a rouse.<p>Thanks for your kind words, Hon.<p>I'm etting ready to read your update on your thread. I'll post back to you in a few, k?<p>Love,
Jo

Jo & HurtByHubby,
I want to thank you for post. It really hits home with my H. My H sounds a little like Jo's H.
I never thought it about that way.
My H says that he messed up but it is my choice to stay with him.<p>I guess he kind of puts the blame on me.<p>Dawn

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dawn71:
My H says that he messed up but it is my choice to stay with him.<p>I guess he kind of puts the blame on me.<hr></blockquote><p>Dawn,<p>IMVHO, after reading your statement up above, I would strongly recommend you and H get into a counselor ASAP. <p>His statement to you is a way of diminshing his responsibility of the situation. It's his "OUT" if things don't work out. "Yes", it is your decison to stay, however ... you and he TOGETHER made a choice to remain married and as a Team recover and rebuild under the circumstances he created and owns.<p>I'm not placing blame, I'm simply an advocate to "OWN YOUR OWN STUFF" .... <p>Please do not allow this to linger, his words now can be his excuses for his actions later.<p>Best,
Jo<p>[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

jo,
We just started to counseling. My H goes on Monday.<p>Dawn

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dawn71:
<strong>jo,
We just started to counseling. My H goes on Monday.<p>Dawn</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Very good!<p>I hope you plan to broach the subject of his responsibility issues to the counselor eventually, but delicately and with respect.<p>Jo

Hi Jo,<p>What an awful position your xH put you in. BW are defenseless against such illogic. It's so unfair.<p>You know and like one of the OC, right, the handsome boy whose photo you posted? Was that OC child #1 or #2? Probably #1. You obviously have a great capacity to love. What is your relationship with OC now?<p>Isn't it ironic that OW #2 harassed you post A, and xH is harassing you now that he is with OW #2?<p>Wishing you well,
Estes

Hi Estes,<p>You haven't been around much, I've really missed you and your posts/responses.<p>Yeah, it was a very hard situation to go thru, I'm still struggling with the visions of how it all came about. I guess maybe now you can see why ONS OW (who my H is with) hates me. I almost felt like her A with my H was about revenge, still do a little.<p>The OC explanation is not an easy thing to explain in terms of who's who.<p>But here goes:<p>The pic I posted is Ryan, he is OW #1's son. OW #1 is the OW my H left me for years ago, then my H cheated on OW #1 with ONS OW (OW #2). OW #2 (ONS OW) got pregnant first, then mos later, OW #1 got pregnant. <p>So Ryan is OW #1's son, so I refer to him here as OC #1. <p>I started participating in both OCs lives aft I discovered my H was seeing them. Then ONS OW got angry that her son started to love me (she didn't know my H was bringing him home to me) so she stoped letting my H bring him over. But OW #1 and I became friends, she apologized to me for having an A with my H. Said if she had met me before the A, she would have never done it. <p>I was very active in Ry's life for 3 years, then my H was giving me grief, using the excuse he could call me etc, because I was seeing Ryan. Things on his side of town started to get ugly, while at his grandmother's Ryan wouldn't go with H one week-end and said he wanted to be with me instead, locked himself in the bathroom and wouldn't come out.<p>I then decided I should pull back my visits with Ry. I haven't seen him in 2 months and I miss him more than I can say. I adore him. But I think it's for the best for now.<p>Anyhooooo, sorry for the long explaination.<p>Very best,
Jo<p>[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Jo,<p>I still read every day, just don't respond much if I can't add to what others have already said.<p>I have really strong feelings about these poor babies who may never know their fathers. Maybe I have been brain-washed by Dr. Laura, but I believe deep down that there will always be an emptiness in the lives of these kids because their fathers chose not to include them in their lives. There babies do not deserve to be rejected by their fathers even though their mothers may deserve to be rejected.<p>I really do appreciate the pain that couples feel when there is an OC involved. But the little ones do not have anything to do with the situation. They just need to be cherished by both parents. That is one area, at least, in which your xH is has done the right thing (way too late, and the wrong way, but at least the boys know their dad thinks they are important).
My DIL's OM's one redeeming characteristic may be that he is very involved in his daughters' lives. Unfortunately, DIL is too. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>In Ryan's case, look how lucky he is. His parents care about him and so do you. As he gets older, I think he will continue to value you as a dear friend. <p>BTW, here is a link to some photos. I posted them on the movie star threadbut chickened out because it was so public. I'll come back and delete this link in a little while.<p>
Love,
Estes<p>[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>