I wonder if I can ask you a question.<p>I read on the other thread where you wrote:<p><strong>Maybe I'm different, but it took me about 10 years before I was truly able to have peace within regarding the fact that I might never marry. Men are not jumping out of the woodwork to marry a single mom, let's face it. At least not the men *I* met along the way.</strong><p> [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] My mouth dropped to the floor.<p>Maybe it's a cultural difference, or a generational difference or whatever. I just wonder how long ago that was.<p>The reason that I wonder is that that statement is SO the opposite of my experience.

Katie,
You silly girl. Taking my thoughts out of context and pretending to have a question. This was not a question. It was a statement.<p>In any case, I'm happy for you that you are dating men who are perfectly suited to you. In my case, I only needed a commitment from one and I found him. My saga is posted all over the boards including my age and my profile... My story is no secret...<p>So anyway. Thanks for "asking." [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Uh, ok, whatever. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Believe it or not I have not really followed your story except for in bits and pieces. <p>Nevermind.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=015552<p>For someone who doesn't follow my story, you sure did refer to me a lot in your posts to this fellow MBer. I wish you would refrain. We have nothing in common. Really... I say this in all respect, KS...

LOL! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Was trying to compliment, not offend. Won't happen again.

I just don't get you, KS. In one of your initial MB posts, you pretended to have a question for me off the boards and then through personal e-mail you proceeded to let me know how offensive my opinions were calling me a "sanctimonious b*tch." So now all of a sudden, I'm supposed to believe your questions and compliments are sincere? Are you really starving for this much attention? Well, I hope you are satisfied. I wish I would have saved the e-mail you sent me so I could post that for MBers to see exactly where you are coming from. <p>I apologized to you for offending you and I subsequently removed my posts to you. At first, I thought you were sincere about marriage building but you continue to show your non-MB attitudes through your antagonistic posts. My friends would tell me I'm wasting my time. But I know people who thrive on attention, even if it is negative attention.<p>So again, I'm happy for you that you are financially independent and ready to retire. I'm happy for you that you are happily single and happily dating a great guy who is broke but great in every other way, except he doesn't put the toilet seat down. (I'm serious guys, this is all posted in EN forum...) I'm happy for you that your son is well-adjusted to your happily happy single life. Good for you!<p>I don't know what you want from ME? You seem to have it all! GO GIRL!

Oh good grief.<p>BTDT, By way of exaplaination:<p>#1- I was initially offended by you calling me names. If I recall it was "big dummy". I thought that it was mean and unnecessary. THAT is why I wanted to speak to you off the boards. In my opinion it was completely unncesaary for me to name call you in a public forum as you had done to me. I did call you a santamonious b*tch and will not apologize for having done so.<p>#2- During that conversation you said to me "I will never post to you again..." If you recall, I said that that was not necessary (a little dramatic in my opinion-but whatever.) If someone upsets me I will say it. That in no way means I never want to talk to you again. It just means that I was pissed by one event. End of story.<p>#3- Believe it or not I have learned a ton from MB. Maybe i'm not the regretful, shame-filled, repentant OW as some here might wish, but reading and posting here has truely changed the way that I do some things in my life. <p>#4- Initially, i'd run across your posts here and there and I thought "she's one of those." And by "those" I mean those people who "find jesus" or whomever and are suddenly holier than thou. From STD's to WWJD. I thought, pathetic, sad, seen it a million times. My response to that was to ignore your posts.<p>As the months have passed I've read things from you that struck a cord. I had ZERO idea what your story was. I had no reason to follow it. Although it seems you followed mine.<p>So I asked you the question that began this thread. I thought, hmm, past all of the penance BTDT has something to say. Maybe there IS something that I can learn from her.<p>Guess I was wrong.<p>I have to say that i'm 100% vexed by your defensiveness. It honestly made me laugh becasue for the most part I had forgotten about the past. Maybe I assumed that you had too. I read your post and I was like "ok, note to self, NEVER, NEVER try and be nice to BTDT." LOL!<p>IMHO no harm, no foul.<p>I was sincere when I said "maybe BTDT can address TOW questions in a more gentle way than I can." It seems you can. You have more empathy for them than I - there is no question.<p>I'm a big fan of the flat footed truth as long as it's done in a tactful way. It seems (strickly my opinion) BTDT that you care greatly for BS's but think poorly of OP even former ones. Maybe that's commentary on how you feel about yourself. Who knows. Honestly - not my concern. <p>As for my past, we'll i've adpoted the stance of "...I will not regret the past, nor wish to shut the door on it." To my thinking it just is. My ammends is in living differently today rather than the scraping and servile behavior that i've seen from some former OP. But again, my opinion.<p>So to answer your question "What do you want from me" I guess the original answer would have been : to learn from you. But now-not a thing.<p>God bless
KS

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>#1- I was initially offended by you calling me names. If I recall it was "big dummy". I thought that it was mean and unnecessary. THAT is why I wanted to speak to you off the boards. In my opinion it was completely unncesaary for me to name call you in a public forum as you had done to me. I did call you a santamonious b*tch and will not apologize for having done so.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I assumed that you had not forgiven me even tho I apologized and deleted that post and that's okay. For the record, I did ask for your apology and deleting my post was my (MY) way of showing you that I was sincere.<p>And yet again, you are taking my words out of context. I was explaining to you my situation of how I felt like a big fat dummy left standing there (xOW) with no father for my kid. THAT WAS BEFORE I ever knew your son was not the product of your love affair with your MM... That's what I said.<p>One of the wisest things you ever said on this board was "it's not what you are called, but what you answer to." Are you telling me that this is all you got out of my post and that you were answering to that? You're smarter than that!<p>So this leads me again to wonder why you are here, posting on the Pregnancy/Child forum in the first place...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong><p>#2- During that conversation you said to me "I will never post to you again..." </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, it's difficult to ignore you when you constantly call me out in this way. To me, it was not complimentary. In one of your posts you stated that you "built a VERY successful career based on facing down challenges..." and so I can't help but to perceive your whole personality in this way. Now, I could be wrong, but to me, this behavior is not sincere, but rather antagonistic. You're smart. You know what you're doing...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
<strong>...i'm not the regretful, shame-filled, repentant OW as some here might wish, but reading and posting here has truely changed the way that I do some things in my life. </strong><hr></blockquote> <p>Nobody is asking you to be anything BUT yourself and I think it is good that you are seeking truth and wanting to be a good mom for your son--a better mom than your own mom was. A REAL (down to earth) mom who is honest about her sins, unlike the Christians you were surrounded with in your upbringing. But don't use the Christians YOU were raised around to make assumptions regarding me or other Christians you may encounter. To me, that is wrong. To say that all Christians are hypocrites, to me, is like saying all black people eat watermelon... And I'm black too, so don't even start thinking what you might be starting to think...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>#4- Initially, i'd run across your posts here and there and I thought "she's one of those." And by "those" I mean those people who "find jesus" or whomever and are suddenly holier than thou. From STD's to WWJD. I thought, pathetic, sad, seen it a million times. My response to that was to ignore your posts.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You never know who God will use to reach you OR your son, so it is important in life to remain teachable, regardless. It's important to also teach your son this--you stated that you are interested in teaching him humility, right?<p>Well, yes indeedie, that is my story in a nutshell. I like the way you put it even tho it was meant to mock me. That's okay. From STDs to WWJD [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] That's so true. Isn't it amazing God's love and mercy toward me??? I should have been dead.<p>How God would actually USE that story From STDs to WWJD to help me raise my son to be a better person than I was. Maybe that explains why I have a 19-year old who remains a virgin, who wants to marry a virgin, and who has a relationship with God.<p>I'm talking about a relationship. Not rituals to look good in front of other people. I'm talking about character. It's amazing how I raised my son to "do NOT as I did, but as I say..." I would never have thought a parent could raise their kid with that philosophy. I always thought it had to be by example.<p>Don't get me wrong, I had to change my lifestyle and give what stability I could as a single mom, you know, be home on time at the same time every night, spend time with him, take him places with me, whatever... But even still, God gave me a man who knows how to love me the way God intended for me to be loved. In ways that my bio father and other men in my life failed me. You're right, I'm amazed at God's love!!!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>
As the months have passed I've read things from you that struck a cord. I had ZERO idea what your story was. I had no reason to follow it. Although it seems you followed mine.
<hr></blockquote></strong><p>That's fine. No need to, but when/if you ever have questions about people, the sorta polite thing to do is read their posts and your questions could readily be answered... If you click on the eyeglasses next to the screenname, their recent posts will appear and there ya go. <p>That is why I really like this Christian-oriented site and discussion forum. People actually care about the posters and their stories. People actually are interested in others' stories. People actually take time to read and REMEMBER where others are coming from. People take time to RELATE to one another. For what it's worth seeing how it IS an anonymous forum and you can't really know for sure what people really are about.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>So I asked you the question that began this thread. I thought, hmm, past all of the penance BTDT has something to say. Maybe there IS something that I can learn from her.<p>Guess I was wrong.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>The question that begun this thread was your insinuating something to the effect that my experience was not genuine because I guess men are coming out of the woodworks to propose to you.<p>That's the way you came across.<p>So since I'm black like you, there is not that much of a cultural difference, you're east coast, I'm west coast, maybe that's the difference. I'm 9 years older than you so there is not a generation gap, if you must know. I'm not old enough to be your mom, but I could be your big sister or your girlfriend or a young auntie...<p>You sounded very condescending to me so I reacted in a sarcastic way.<p>"Your experience is SO opposite from mine." Well DUH, we are coming from two different worlds. You think someone like me who values marriage & motherhood is "INSANE" remember? Reflecting back to your comments re: your college girlfriend who wanted to get married while you wanted world travel instead... so whatever, you know? We agree to disagree.<p>I interpret things you say based on your whole presentation, not parts and pieces disected out. You disect things I say and miss the big picture.<p>The big picture of what I was saying had more to do with the fact that God blessed me with an awesome husband after I surrendered my thoughts, my feelings, my wants--to HIM completely. When I gave up MY dreams, God gave me THE COMPLETE dream. He showed His great love for me, in spite of STDs to WWJD! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I love that!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
<strong>I have to say that i'm 100% vexed by your defensiveness.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Oh well, you have that right. Try not to let it bother you too much. Like I said, clarification was probably in order if we are going to continue to post and read each other's stuff. There IS an ignore feature on this board, but I have not brought myself to invoke it. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>It honestly made me laugh becasue for the most part I had forgotten about the past.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You continuously contradict yourself... You make me laugh too...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>Maybe I assumed that you had too.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Nope. Neither one of us forgot about our name calling exchange. The difference was that I was sorry and tried to demonstrate that. You were not sorry. That's your right. Just know that unforgiveness has forever tied you to me. Forgiveness frees me of your hurtfulness... If you think that is sanctimonious or patronizing, you're wrong. It's just a fact.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>I read your post and I was like "ok, note to self, NEVER, NEVER try and be nice to BTDT." LOL!
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Could you ever put yourself in someone else's shoes even for a second? Do you actually blame me for being cautious of you? Simply because I'm a Christian? So that means I should put up with YOUR bull crap? I'm sorry, but if that makes me less of a Christian in your eyes, then pray for me cuz evidently God needs to work on that part of me... I think you should get rid of your preconceived notions about Christians having to be sinless. We are not forgiven because of what we do, but because of what Jesus already did (shed His blood)...<p>Christians are subjected to the same enemy as you, only we have protection if we choose it. Do you realize that is the only difference between a Christian and a non-Christian... (Protection from the devil.)<p>See, maybe YOUR sin is more dignified than mine is STDs to WWJD, [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] but there is one hell made for all sinners and I was on my way there until I realized that my actions were offensive to God and I asked HIM to forgive me...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>IMHO no harm, no foul.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I feel the same way. Now. What if we just wipe the slate clean and start over? I'm willing if you're willing? That means no more being turned off to Jesus because MY actions or comments turned you off? Jesus is our example, not other Christians...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>I was sincere when I said "maybe BTDT can address TOW questions in a more gentle way than I can." It seems you can. You have more empathy for them than I - there is no question.</strong>
<hr></blockquote><p>Thank you. My guess is that when life experience brings more light into your young life, you will develop more empathy for others too. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>
I'm a big fan of the flat footed truth as long as it's done in a tactful way. It seems (strickly my opinion) BTDT that you care greatly for BS's but think poorly of OP even former ones. Maybe that's commentary on how you feel about yourself. Who knows. Honestly - not my concern. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Not true. I do care. I care about everyone involved in infidelity. I believe I can see affairs from many different angles, only not from within my marriage and I pray that I never will. I try never to forget where I came from, even if it means that someone like you will toss it back in my face. But that's okay. I can take it because I am honest with myself. That's why I had no problem posting all my dirt for the world to see. Nothing is hidden in God's eyes anyway! What the heck?<p>So I have come from STDs to WWJD and I'm not DEAD! Praise GOD! I am grateful to have another chance in God's eyes. While someone like you wouldn't give me another chance, that's perfectly fine as you don't have the power to toss my butt into HELL! I would rather be right with GOD any day. I cannot change your opinion of me but I know who I am and where I'm going. I can't have my peace in someone else's head. I have to have peace with God. If you fault me for that, I can't change it and I won't even try. <p>If I thought I was holier than thou, I would never have mentioned my xOW lifestyle, here, or anywhere else. You cannot actually hide an OC or single parent status from the world.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
<strong>As for my past, we'll i've adpoted the stance of "...I will not regret the past, nor wish to shut the door on it." To my thinking it just is. My ammends is in living differently today rather than the scraping and servile behavior that i've seen from some former OP. But again, my opinion.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Servile to whom???? It just depends what you are talking about... To say you will not regret your past regardless is very stiff-necked and dangerous. That is the part of righteous TOW's that I have trouble with. To me, it's like saying I'm a homewrecker and proud of it. Only the focus is on yourself and the BS, her kids, her home, her life are totally ignored AS IF accountability for her pain solely rests on the MM. That is so dangerous to think that way! SO dangerous... Because everything we do is planting seeds for our own harvest. You study eastern philosophy so I'm sure you believe in cause and effect... You could even look at it in terms of the law: BUT FOR TOW's involvement in MM's life, BS would not be devastated...<p>Be willing to say you are sorry for the wrong stuff in your past cuz one day you may need to apologize to your son for mistakes and it might make all the difference in his life and his world view.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>
So to answer your question "What do you want from me" I guess the original answer would have been : to learn from you. But now-not a thing.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>That's fine, but I don't believe you. I believe you are looking for a challenge. I still find it difficult to believe that you were initially looking for some answers from me, because your delivery came across in such a condescending, sort of mocking way but maybe I misunderstood. You sounded kind of like, "*I* don't have any problem meeting men, what's wrong with YOU?" So if I misunderstood, I'm sorry.<p>I'm not sorry for my sarcasm because I doubted your sincerity and I refused to play games. I believe in facing truth too.<p>[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

<strong>
So this leads me again to wonder why you are here, posting on the Pregnancy/Child forum in the first place...<p>Will answer the rest later... <p></strong><p>I don't know why your answers always make me laugh. But they do. I somehow get the feeling that this will turn into "what I said/meant was..." on both of our parts. LOL!<p>What's funny is that I hadn't posted on here in a while and I got an e-mail that said "where ya been Katie, you never post on MB anymore..." LOL!<p>And for the record my child IS an OC. Just not in the way you think. Cliff Notes version: 1997 - broke up with MM. Dated a nice single guy. Did some heavy petting one night and got pregnant. (Whodathunk - we didn't even do the real deal) Turns out the nice single guy was engaged to someone else.<p>[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>
...I somehow get the feeling that this will turn into "what I said/meant was..." on both of our parts. LOL!...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well you know, perhaps we both should allow some room for clarification instead of having knee-jerk reactions to each other. Clarification is a good thing.<p>I'm assuming that we have nothing in common, but perhaps we have more in common than we think? Who knows?<p>Maybe we got off on the wrong foot with assumptions--you assuming things about me and my relationship with God and misunderstanding me as someone who is against you. I'm not against you, KS.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>...And for the record my child IS an OC...
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well then, perhaps you should change your sig line?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Katie Scarlett's signature line:
<strong>
31/F/NYC
xOW (9.5 yrs)/Son, 3.5 yrs (not OC)
ended EMA 7/01
Happily dating SG
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Unless I am misinterpreting something, it says your son is 3.5 years old and "(not OC)"<p>Which is it? Either he is or he isn't?<p>Even on another previous post you specifically noted that he is not an OC. You're confusing to me sometimes, KS.<p>[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

Clarifications, clarification everywhere!<p>I'll begin with my son. My son is NOT an OC of my 9 year affair. He is an OC in that his father was engaged so someone else. I listed it the way that I did because I didn't want folks here to assume that he was born of my 9 year union with MM.<p>RE: the original question
I read what you wrote and I thought - WOW, that's so different than my experience, and the experience of my friends. I wasn't sure if what you wrote happened 30 years ago. If it was a cultural difference (how was I to know that you're black?) or what. I was just thinking "wow, times have really really changed." That's it! No insinuation, no further thought really. So when I read your response I was like "O-K"!<p>It is true that I DO judge Christians harsher than other spiritual paths. My experience with them has been less than ideal. As you may or may not remember I was raised in a Christian household. You know the kind, church Sunday morning, sunday evening and wednesday night. No matter what. If we were sick we went to church and laid in the pew, my mother was serious about the religion thing.<p>The deal for me was, I had questions. Lots of questions. questions that were not asked the right way, questions that annoyed, questions to follow up to the questions that I had. Questions about the validity of the bible. Questions about other books. Always lots of questions (you can see not much has changed.) And BOY did I piss people off! They told me that I should talk less and listen more. I did, but the more I listened, the more questions I had. For my many questions I was told "you will burn in hell, etc." No joke. I was kicked out of sunday school class after sunday school class. And lets not even get started on youth group. So now i'm a Unitarian and raising my child as one. We LOVE questions! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Now I understand that not all christians are alike just as all black people don't eat watermelon. But if i've only ever seen black people eating watermelon (and little else) you could see how i'd view them as melon lovers.<p>I admit that I have little patience for so called Christians. I assume they are mindless sheep only capable of chanting the same rote messages. But that's my issue not yours. <p>You're interesting to me BTDT. I'm not entirely sure why, but you are. Okay, you also annoy me sometimes too, but i'm sure I annoy you. That's no crime in my book. <p>I honestly didn't mean to offend you. I was seeking information. It has long been my pattern to get what I want. I wanted information from you so I went after it. Maybe I could have come at you a different way. So for my harashness I apologize.<p>Lastly, the thing about the kids:
(Now here comes my judgement) When I read you say things like "...I got pregnant by a MM and the lord has saved me from the sin and shame of the past..." I'm seeing Aunt Esther from Sanford and Son. Bible waving, wig flopping and all. It just seems overly dramatic and silly to me. Maybe there are lurkers/posters who are inspired by the image. It just make me giggle. That's why I was like oh good grief, you have a baby, you do your best, end of story.<p>For the record, the slate is clean from my POV. I harbor no ill will toward you. If I did I wouldn't bother to write you at all.<p>So going forward I hope you that see me making reference to you as a show of affection and not antagonism.<p>Peace
KS<p>[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</p>

BTDT,<p>I wouldn't even waste my time... you don't have to justify your credibility, your victory in Christ is obvious. And besides, when certain people walk in darkness, they can't see the light. Just continue to praise God that he has brought you (us) out of darkness and into the light.<p>And KS, the questions you had while growing up in a Christian home regarding Christianity can only be answered through the Word and the power of the Holy Spirit. Certain questions will not be answered until the end. Being a Christian and believing in something unseen is called FAITH. God may be knocking on your heart's door right now, but it is up to you to let him in or send him away to the next heart. For BTDT, she invited Him in. Give God another try, maybe your parents and church did a poor job of representing His love towards you. <p>Peace to you too
Julia

I'm SO very bad at the ignore feature. Anyway:<p>I never asked that BTDT justify her credibility. I was simply giving her my perspective so that she knew where I was coming from. I admit my prejudices towards Christians. I honestly thought that she was interesting for a Christian. I don't know how to write that sentance so that it doesnt sound bad. But that's the truth of what I was thinking. I was here for a while before I even realized that this was a Christian site. Had I known that going in I probably would not have bothered.<p>So Julia, a few questions for you. And if you find them offensive I hope you'll be better at the ignore feature than I am [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p><strong>And KS, the questions you had while growing up in a Christian home regarding Christianity can only be answered through the Word and the power of the Holy Spirit.</strong><p>Which "word" would you be referring to. I've read the bible, but found more answers in study of "A Course in Miracles" and the Kabbalah. Please define "the Power of the Holy Spirit" that has never made any since to me.<p><strong>Certain questions will not be answered until the end.</strong><p>The end of what? My life? That's probably true. I can accept that.<p><strong>Being a Christian and believing in something unseen is called FAITH.</strong><p>I think that belief in things not seen in faith in every spiritual path. It is only through faith that i'm been clean and sober for the past 5 years.

<strong>God may be knocking on your heart's door right now, but it is up to you to let him in or send him away to the next heart.</strong><p>I have heard this line a million times but I have NO idea what it means. Is this something like a spiritual awakening?<p><strong>Give God another try,</strong><p>I believe in God. I am NOT a christian, but have a serious personal relatinship with God. She and I understand one another perfectly. Christianity is just one of thousands of spiritual paths.<p><strong>maybe your parents and church did a poor job of representing His love towards you. <p>Peace to you too
Julia</strong><p>Of that I am certain. But gratefully I found her anyway.<p>Did you assume that since i'm not a Christian I don't believe in God? I do. Frankly without faith i'm screwed.<p>[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</p>

Hi Julia,
Thanks for your comments. You're right. And up until now, I have avoided "casting my pearls" so to speak. Somehow, the timing felt right and necessary. Maybe if one lurker's perceptions are altered through this exchange, then what can I say? All the credit to God...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>It is true that I DO judge Christians harsher than other spiritual paths.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Just be careful cuz when we point the finger at others, there are 3 pointing back at ourselves. OTOH, I agree with you that there should be a higher expectation of Christians than non-Christians. The problem is that people are flawed, Christian or non. If we keep our expectations in God, we cannot be disappointed.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>...I was raised in a Christian household. You know the kind, church Sunday morning, sunday evening and wednesday night. No matter what...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>No I don't. I was not raised in that kind of house. However, I did put my son's health before going to church. If he was not feeling well, I would not subject his immune system to others, nor others to his illnesses. That's wrong, IMO. I'm sorry your family's priorities were so screwed up.<p>Don't get me wrong, we need to go to church, but not at the expense of our health or our kids' health.<p>I don't think we should be so heavenly minded that we are no earthly good.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong> If we were sick we went to church and laid in the pew, my mother was serious about the religion thing.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>True ministry starts at home. I believe a mother's first priority is ministering to her family, not to be seen at church.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>...the more I listened, the more questions I had...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Sounds to me like you were asking the WRONG sources... [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] I don't believe God punishes us for questioning His word. There is a place in the word (of God/the bible), where He says to us, "Come now, let us reason together..." I don't think it was cool for them to shoot down your questions.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>...I understand that not all christians are alike just as all black people don't eat watermelon. But if i've only ever seen black people eating watermelon (and little else) you could see how i'd view them as melon lovers...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, then honey, you should get out more! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Broaden your horizons a little!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>I admit that I have little patience for so called Christians. I assume they are mindless sheep only capable of chanting the same rote messages. But that's my issue not yours. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>That's right, Katie. If we keep our minds quiet, then God can work through us by HIS SPIRIT. Confusion is not from God. Thinking and thinking and thinking about problems or situations until our brain is in a knot is not the way to be led by God's spirit. Sometimes God's spirit will lead us in a way that doesn't MAKE sense. Because faith is faith and sense is sense.<p>We ARE the sheep. He IS the Good Shepherd. I believe that is why God compares us to sheep, so we DON'T have to think about and worry about our problems, but we can give all our cares to Him and let Him lead us in the way we should go. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>You're interesting to me BTDT. I'm not entirely sure why, but you are. Okay, you also annoy me sometimes too, but i'm sure I annoy you. That's no crime in my book. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] And oh well, we were mutually offended by each other so we're even. I'm in favor of starting off on a different foot now tho. Apology accepted.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>...It has long been my pattern to get what I want. I wanted information from you so I went after it...
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I know. And if you look back, I held out initially. Too funny. You got what you wanted. And yes, I know that you didn't know I was black, I never mentioned it cuz I wanted people to take me for my heartfelt posts, not for those Aunt Esther images. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I have been told that I resemble Irene Cara, so perhaps that might change your picture of Aunt Esther. Imagine Irene Cara thumping the bible atcha!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>When I read you say things like "...I got pregnant by a MM and the lord has saved me from the sin and shame of the past..." </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, trust me, it didn't happen instantaneously like that. I had to go back to my church pregnant out of wedlock and face people. I had to face my family unwed and pregnant. They had higher hopes for me than single parenting and so did I but like you said, oh well, life happens. I had to get myself out of debt, work hard at my job while my boss and coworkers were causing trouble because of a lack of respect for my unwed mother status. Trust me, it was not in my imagination. They would talk behind my back and things would get back to me.<p>The "Lord saving me from sin and shame" didn't happen overnight. It is a process that happens from one incident to the next, from one trigger to the next, from one kick in the gut to the next...<p>Maybe a better way to word it would be to say, God keeps saving me from being down on myself due to either my own thoughts or the hurtful words of others--on a daily basis or as needed. How? His Word encourages me.<p>For example, the other day, I couldn't think of a scripture to save myself and I asked my husband to "give me a word." I'm sure you have heard that phrase before, but to me, it means a scriptural word of encouragement. He said, "Faith works by love." I let those words sink in and it just helped me so much. It helped me to release all the fear and dread I was feeling at that moment, to forgive and let go of resentment, and to trust God all in one Word... you know, just something sweet to meditate on instead of the problems of the day... To me, THAT's how God leads this blind sheep when I am going off the path of trusting Him. Anything good about me, I owe to God.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>For the record, the slate is clean from my POV.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yeah, life is too short to have ill feelings, even in cyberland. Thanks for your time Katie. & thanks for listening.

Another thing that occurred to me Katie, regarding your mom's commitment to her church when you were coming up... Maybe that is just where she was in her walk with the Lord--you know, felt like she had to be in church every time the doors opened?<p>Maybe that is the best way she knew how to raise you and didn't take your feelings and thoughts into consideration.<p>I can see how you would come to resent church when it stood between your getting through to your mother about the validation YOU needed.<p>Still, we have to see our parents as having done the best they could. Your son is only 3. He's soooo young. You are going to make a lot of mistakes raising him, just watch. And many times he will only be able to interpret those mistakes the way HE sees it, regardless of your explanations.<p>I apologize for judging your mom for raising you the way she did. I'm sure she did her best. Sometimes mom's best ain't always fair, but still, it's her best. Can't fault them for that...<p>Has your mom changed regarding her church commitment? Or is she still there every time the doors open? Just wondering...<p>If she IS still very actively involved in her church, then it would be interesting to know in what capacity (member or leader). If not, then I rest my case.

BTDT,
If you were standing here i'd give you a big hug. I want to thank you for giving your response in regular, easy to understand english.<p>OK- how can I say this and not be offensive. Julia's comments although well intensioned i'm sure are what I have run into over and over again. (ie. don't bother, the lord is knocking at the door, the 'word'). Every time I see stuff like that i'm like "WHATEVER". I just wish someone would speak about Christianity in plain regular english. Use modern words and not bible-babble to explain their faith.<p>Zealots are always interesting to me. Maybe that's why you caught my attention BT. I always wonder what it is about a particular path that make people think "i'm going to go at this full force." I get how I came to my understanding of God, faith and the like. I always wonder how others made the journey. The other important thing to say is that just because I ask about Christianity does not mean that I want to be a christian. I'm done lots and lots of research on most of the major religions of the world. Christianity is still such a mystery to me becasue (my experience has been) few Chrsitians can exaplin their faith to me in regular terms. Usually I get people who assume I want to convert, get frustrated with my constant questions, declare I have no faith and toss me aside.<p>Re: my mother
She is still heaven bound and little earthly good. I love her though. I 100% believe that she did her very best. I'm frustrated and sad with her slowness to change, her willingness to throw my sister and I away if we don't believe as she believes, and her tendancy to put her church family first. We're all works in progress. Both she and I.<p>I'm sure that there are many, many mistakes that I have yet to make with my son. My only prayer is that one day he'll see me the way I see my mother, human, flawed, beautiful. (Ok, i've got anger to spare too. But most of that comes from what she does day to day and not things of the past).<p>It's interesting to hear your prespective on meditation. I have long "sought through prayer and meditation to improve my consciencous contact with God"<p>I loved when you wrote this part:
The "Lord saving me from sin and shame"... Maybe a better way to word it would be to say, God keeps saving me from being down on myself due to either my own thoughts or the hurtful words of others<p>It's like you're bi-lingual. God keeps saving me from being down on myself too. I'd never express it as "saving me from sin and shame" because those are abstract terms open to any number of interpertations. I think it's kind of bibliocentric to assume that regular people would understand the sin and shame bit. (That's not meant to be a criticism, but rather an example of what I was referring to before).<p>I have much to be grateful for, there is no question (including this site and this exchange with you). Materially i'm very blessed, but all of the "stuff" in the world doesn't keep be from being bummed out, frustrated and angry sometimes.<p>Lastly, you asked what my mom is like today. Well not much has changed. She's still a member of the same church. She does not lead because women in that church don't lead. She still believes that if you believe EXACTLY like her you'll go to heaven and all others will burn in hell. She and my sister are very close. I live many miles away. My sister has adopted a slightly more liberal version of the faith of our childhood. I, in my usual fashion, have gone opposite and extreme (in their opinion) and become a Unitarian.

Hi Katie,
Thanks for the hug. Here's one for you too {{{{KS}}}} I'm not much of a weekend poster, gotta get that 15-hour/week timeframe in with my H somehow!<p>I hear you on all points. It's too bad that your mom's efforts to win her children to Christ have done exactly the opposite! YIKES! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Maybe we (Christian moms) can all learn a lesson here.<p>Our kids need to be heard and we have to answer their questions and when we don't know something, we need to be honest enough to tell them we don't know.<p>At the risk of getting too "off the topic of Pregnancy/Child, OW/OC issues" here (oh well, too late, but), I just wanted to acknowledge your reply and say that I am glad that God gives us all the choice between life or death, blessings or curses, forgiveness or bitterness, freedom or bondage. The choice is up to us. And, I believe it's a daily choice.<p>All we can do is pray for each other, keep praying for each other and pray, pray, pray, regardless. I believe in prayer more than talking the talk or even walking the walk cuz sometimes we trip and FALL for the world to see! Heck, maybe if we spent more time praying, we wouldn't be out there getting tripped up... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Okay, I'm done preaching.<p>How do Harley's principles fit into this discussion? Well, as a result of my belief in God and implementing Harley's concepts into our marriage, we are definitely giving our children something we never had--a godly example of what marriage is supposed to look like, feel like, and be like! Both parents involved, in love, interested in each other's needs. Give, give, give and you will receive, receive, receive!

On the subject of MB principals, reading posting here about relationships has shown me a lot. It's funny to me how i'll read about something here and then have the same thing happen at my house a week later.<p>It's also been helpful for me to read about how BS's are dealing with OC. It never occured to me that the BS (girlfriend) in my case might see my son. I just never stopped to think about if from her POV.<p>Both my boyfriend and I have children from previous relationships. He's got a really tereffic 13 year old son, and as you know my boy is 3.5.<p>I never had an example of what a 2-parent home looked like. Most of my family members are divorced or merely tolerate (not love) their mates.<p>Together my BF and I have created a safe and loving home for our children. It's a wonderful thing to see/feel. Now I understand that our home as well as our relationship is a work in progress. He's FAR better at it than me, but day by day we work it out.<p>Anyway, thanks for taking the time to post to me BTDT. I'll see you around the board.<p>KS