As some of you may have guessed from my prolonged absence, things are not going well at all with my marriage. We have been at odds for months now and it's not getting any better. We have had bad times before, but this is a little different, because....<p>For the first time since the affair with ow, I feel like I want OUT of this marriage. I feel like I have been clinging to the Titanic and riding along straight to the bottom of the ocean. And now I want off. At this point, the only reason I am staying (and I know it's a BIG reason) is because of the children. And because I am a little afraid to be alone.<p>My h has been extremely critical of me, and has been verbally and emotionally abusive for several months. I do not know what his reasons are, although Bystander has privately offered some interesting theories. But all of a sudden I am at the point where I'm thinking to myself, "what the hell am I doing here?"<p>I guess one of the catalysts was when a dear friend of mine told me that his wife may be pregnant to another man. He asked for my advice. Up until now, I would have gone into the wonders of rebuilding your marriage, how infidelity does not mean the end of world, etc. etc. I didn't say this of course, but I thought to myself, "why would you ever stay with somebody who obviously has such little love and respect for you?" Then it struck me that *I* stayed with somebody like that - and what for? <p>Tell me, why do ANY of us do it? Why don't we just cut our losses and go on with life? <p>I know this is an extremely negative post, and for that I apologize. I don't know if I am searching for confirmation that what I am contemplating is ok, or if I want somebody to convince me I am wrong. Anyway, I'll take whatever I can get [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
-cd

CD...my take.<p>We are fighters. We are strong. We dont give up easily. We believe that if our marriage is going to end, we will first try anything and everything we can to save it. So that, if and when it does end, we can say with complete confidence that we did absolutely all we could to make things well.<p>We believe marriage is sacred even though our WS has forgotten. We believe divorce is not the answer to all disagreements. We believe in God.<p>We know when it is time to run and time to stick. We have morals, values, gumption, pride, love, sticktoitiveness [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] , and we will not roll over and play dead.<p>We are not mousy, b@#chy, whiny, blind, unrealistic, or cruel. We are not stupid, immoral, or only thinking of our h. We believe that supporting our h does not make us weak or pushovers. <p>We need each other. We cannot do it alone.<p>Just my take. [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Nosetta,<p>I&#8217;m so sorry. When it comes to staying in an abusive relationship, DON&#8217;T stay because of the children. They are the best reason to get out from under the abuse. By staying, you send them the message that it&#8217;s okay for H to treat you this away. It&#8217;s okay to disrespect your spouse. They learn by example. Do you really want your babies to witness your degradation at the hands of their own father? What will they think? I&#8217;m not saying divorce H. What I&#8217;m saying is you need to draw that line and let him know that you will NOT allow him to treat you this way. You do NOT deserve his verbal and emotional abuse and you will not stand for it anymore. He has issues, CD, and there is only so much you can do without sacrificing all of you in order to help him. I think it&#8217;s time to regroup and fight back with your dignity, integrity, and spirit we all know you have. I think it&#8217;s time to take a stand&#8230;.for your well-being as well as your children's.<p>OB1

o.b.1, what is the message that we send our children when we stay with a man who has degraded us by not only stepping outside the marriage, but creating a child with that person as well? Then (as in my case) lied about it for 4 years and is now making no amends for the mistake. What exactly is the lesson???? Well, today my 7 yr old told me that his daddy only did it once and that maybe he just shouldn't have told me, 'cuz then he wouldn't have gotten into trouble. Oh lovely!!! I can't wait when the time comes up that I have to explain how babies are actually made!!!<p>Sorry to get off track, here. I feel like jumping ship too. I have no advice [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>If you do choose to jump ship, you are going to be ok. You really will and so will your kids. God knows that you have tried to make things work. <p>I wonder if people admire us for staying or do they secretly think that we're such fools!!!! I've always believed that once a cheater, always a cheater and now I'm trying to talk myself out of that so that I feel better about staying.<p>sorry....i'll stop now

CD,<p>I honestly don't know what to say! I am so sorry that it has come to this for you and your marriage! As for being able to rebuild your marriage, I believe that if BOTH parties in the marriage are willing to work at it, and want the marriage to work, there is nothing that can stop the marriage from being what it once was. But, if there is even a little doubt from either person, that weakness can cause the marriage to crumble, yet again. In our case, we both wanted to make our marriage work. Yes, there are days, for both of us, but we are both trusting in God to help us rebuild all the damage we have done to this union.<p>Posts like this really tug at my heart, and I think that if you have truely tried everything to make your marriage work, and your H is continuing to treat you in this way, you are very entitled to leave, and should for yourself and the kids. The last thing they need to see is your H continually cut you down, either mentally or emotionally. Kids are SO intuitive when it comes to what's going on. They may not understand it, but they know that something is wrong, and it is, in your case, daddy's fault.<p>Ok, so I guess I said a lot for not knowing what to say. I just want you to know that I will be praying for you and the kids!<p>Love,<p>Tigger

cd<p>A year ago, spouse and I were getting ready to embark on the great adventure...move kith and kart up north into the woods to find a way to rebuild while the long arm of the corrupted system was hot on our heels, garnishing all but a $100 from spouse's earnings every week. We jumped at the opportunity to work for cash for a year so we could catch up on our other obligations and have some semblance of normalcy in our lives, without having the Big New Yorker picking our pocket.<p>Things didn't work out well up there. Spouse and the employer were at a crossroads and their relationship quickly deteriorated. Instead of addressing the issue of being cheated and docked every pay period, (the employer knew we were not in a position to rebel and took advantage of it) spouse took it out on me. By July he was drinking heavily and daily, he was abusive and for an entire month, August, he refused to speak to me or even acknowledge my presence. It were as if I were invisible.<p>After everything he had done to me, to us, to our business, everything he had put me through, after everything I had endured and lost, and after everything I had done to salvage the marriage, being treated in such a shabby manner simply took what love I had left for him and completely dissolved it. I felt nothing for him. Nothing. I couldn't wait to get back and start over alone, without him. I was eagerly looking forward to loosing this anchor around my neck like a bad habit. I had stood by this man through the worst possible thing in the world a spouse can do to his mate. Nothing, in my opinion, even comes close to the ultimate horror of this. Nothing. It is, without hesitation, the worst thing he could do (barring child molestation...and for that, the death penalty is too good)<p>Anyway, I digress.<p>So, when Furface, aka Bipolar Bear, Spouse once again rejected me, I felt something akin to a chain melt away. I was no longer emotionally tied to him, dependant on him, co-dependant to him, desperate for him. I looked at him and thought, "Who the hell do you think you are? You are nothing. You are lucky I ever gave you the time of day. You should be on your knees in thanks that I am even civil to you, let alone let you in my bed with all the trimmings, forgiving your sorry [censored]." And, then, my entire persona, my entire attitude simply changed. It was real. It was not phony. It was not a game I was playing to manipulate him. I felt it...and so did he.<p>We came back to the city in October, went our separate ways and barely spoke to one another all through October and most of November. He lives with our son, and I live with a friend. He rejected me, I rejected him, I vascillated between being completely indifferent and then suddenly I would get confused and frightened of what was going to become of me. Then I got a job and felt a measure of confidence. <p>I don't know exactly when things started turning around but I think the third anniversary of the affair (November) was more a turning point for him than it was for me. Until that time, he was dealing with his own chronic shame, his inability to maintain sobriety and his disgust at what a piece of crap he was and that in comparison, I was above him (his perception) and he needed to bring me down just so he could live with himself.<p>Spouse has never been good at identifying or coming to terms with his emotions and he has never been able to properly deal with them in an effective manner. If he did, he never would have done what he did. He is inept at handling life and life's daily, commonplace inconveniences. He is also immature, selfish and bipolar. But, the flip side of that was his basic integrity, or he wouldn't hate himself so much for what he has done. The bad thing about his intense self hate is how he projected it onto me and tried to destroy me. And was destroying himself in the process.<p>In late November (ironically), he had another moment of clarity where he realized all he was doing to push me away and how he had further destroyed the last shred of love I had. He pulled out all the stops. He set aside his own self interests, his own feelings, his own discomfort and focused completely on me. While I have been enjoying the attention, the fawning, the flowers, the major attempts (including turning over his paycheck to me so I can pay our bills instead of using it for whatever he wants), the damage has certainly been done. I don't feel the same. I doubt I ever will again. On top of that, I am completely suspicious now of his motives and have no trust. There have been too many violations of my trust over the past three and a half years and too many relapses into cruelty.<p>The best thing about this whole thing is that there is NO CONTACT with OW/OC at all on any level, which, if I choose, will give me the opportunity to determine if or ever I will want to reconcile on a permanent basis. All his focus is on me and the marriage, as it should be after all we have been through. Nothing else should matter right now as the marriage comes first to him and if there are distractions, there won't be any healing for us.<p>Our situation is strange because of all the variables of his illness which is why, I am sure, I have stayed longer than I normally would have if he were just a black-hearted sonofabytch. I had no qualms about unceremoniously discarding former husbands or boyfriends at the drop of a hat for lesser offenses. I guess I just had so much, much more invested in this marriage than ever before and I wanted to prevail. I guess I should see someone about this and find out why this time I stayed as tenacious as a pit bull.<p>His illness is his only excuse, but he has a responsibility to take his meds and get on an even keel and learn to deal with life's little inconveniences without reacting like an idiot.<p>cd, I am at the point where I could go either way. I think if your husband made the major change, you might very well have the same inclinations, questions and suspicions I do. When you get to that point, trust me, he will know it...and there may be an attempt (out of fear? out of remorse?) to repair some of the damage he has done. If not, you have lost nothing. Except the months, years you gave fighting for the marriage after the damage HE did. And that can be written off as a life lesson.
When I wrote off spouse in November, I was bitter and angry I had fought so hard to keep the marriage together after all he had done only to be treated in a terrible way. I hated him for that and at the same time, shrugged it off as a hard, hard lesson, trying desperately to figure out just what it is I was supposed to learn or accept. It as too bitter of a pill to swallow and I was enraged I had wasted not just these past three years, but the last two decades.<p>I am fortunate all my kids are grown and gone and know very little about the dynamics of the past three or so years. They would be absolutely flipped out if they knew everything...absolute melt down. But, you have small children and they need to live in a house where Dad loves Mom more than anything on earth...that's where kids get their security. If they see verbal and emotional abuse, they become so damaged from witnessing that kind of torment, that often they themselves repeat the pattern in their own adult lives. You will have to make a decision soon. Your husband will have to make a decision soon.<p>I believe it is time for you to Plan B or enact some hard boundaries, whether he likes it or not and be ready for the consequences. You have lived like this several months now. I don't know the particulars and haven't heard much from Bystander as he is very respectful of your privacy and did not feel at liberty to explain, but I do know you have been under inordinate strain.<p>As for me, I am playing princess and waiting (for a short while) for my frog to turn into Prince Somewhat Charming. Taking it day by day and not caring much which way the cards fall because whichever way they go, I finally know, for the first time in three years, I am going to be more than fine, more than OK. And so will you.<p>Love you, cd...<p>Catnip =^^=<p>[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: catnip ]</p>

this post fills my heart with pain. i have been contemplating this same feeling off and on for some time now. trying to find the one reason that is unquestionably the answer and screams STAY. i have found many different reasons to stay in my relationship kids, fear, compassion, and finance head up my list. but none seems to scream at me.
i can see pros and cons with every excuse whether it is to keep working or end my marriage.<p>i have to agree that if your h is abusive you must draw a line and don't allow it to be crossed. this is for the well being of both you and your kids. the lessons we teach them with our own actions in regards to our own problems are the actions they will carry out through life. we must teach them that abuse in any form is not tolerable. <p>i have often wondered what i am teaching my kids. that it is ok to do what ever you want and then just ask for forgiveness and all is forgotten. what are the lessons on fidelity, commitment, trust, honesty, and morals? i have read here that we are fighting the "good fight". what is the "good fight" exactly? is it the fight to preserve a marriage no matter what personal boundaries of your own have been crossed? <p>i understand the purpose of this site is for the presevation of brken marriages. i do have a question for anyone out there. it seems that i have read many posts about bs's that are stuggling year after year. also many threads such as this one where a bs is on the verge of throwing in the towel and moving on past the pain of this problem. can any one tell me of some other couples who have survived this gut wrenching betrayal and moed on to a place of peace in their marriage with ws? i know of tigger and sailorman even though they will admit to some tuff times. but please tell me of some others if you can. <p>is the answer to getting through this being able to have the personal stength to forgive and stand tall in your decision. i know i have been told that i have the heart of a lion for staying with fh for this long. i don't know if i think that is true or that i am just "the big easy". to afraid to make the break from someone that has become so natural for me to be with. while much the time now feeling the weight of anxiety on my chest. <p>the grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence, it's greener where you water it.

Pops<p>I know threads like this one can be discouraging, but don't despair. It is all cyclical...two steps forward, one back.<p>After something of this magnitude, it takes years to get through the crap and to find some peace and normalcy again in your home and in your marraige. There are so many different situations and so many reasons why we stay and fight. I still haven't figured out why I did, all I know is that I did it and now I can leave without regret if I choose to. I guess when you get to that place, you will know it. For me, it was when I knew I had done everything and there was nothing left, including that deep in love feeling I had for two decades. Disappointment on this exaggerated level really takes the wind out of the situaiton. When you no longer care which way it falls, its your call as to whether or not your marraige survives, then the supreme test of love is forgiveness and willingness to move ahead together. But I think we all have to loose than desparation in order to gain the power, otherwise we look weak to our spouses and perhaps less attractive because of it.<p>The worst thing to me was worrying if I looked like a chump for staying or strong for staying. At this point, I guess it was a horse a piece and doesn't really matter because now I get to make the decision...so there's the strength.<p>Harley says it takes at least two to three years to get past the betrayal once contact has ceased, and he is right on target with most of his predictions. In the meantime, you'll go through the myriad of emotions and various stages we all go through, and your marriage will experience the predictable ups and downs.<p>I hope you and your spouse are in counselling and if you are not, may I suggest a Retrouvaille weekend? For more information about this incredible organization, log onto www.retrouvaille.org. I am so grateful my husband and I had the opportunity to do this early in our recovery because it gave me an insight and a focus I needed to get through the tough stuff early on.<p>Pops, every now and then we get into some negative stuff here because of where we are at the time. There are several here who have not only survived infidelity and the OC issue, but prevailed! There is K, Tigger, Mary Janes, Heavenly, Jenny, and several others who are no longer here because they don't need to be here anymore. It is counterproductive to be here too long if you are recovering nicely. Don't get discouraged, Pops. It's all part of the process.<p>Catnip =^^=

Your husband's behavior is outrageous and your feelings are justified, IMO. Even Dr.Harley said he would not stay with his wife if she had an affair.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by cdcollins:
<strong>...Then it struck me that *I* stayed with somebody like that - and what for?
</strong><hr></blockquote><p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Overcoming Resentment by Dr.Harley:
One of the most remarkable discoveries of my career as a marriage counselor is that marriages can thrive after infidelity. I would never have guessed it, based on my own reactions. My wife, Joyce, let me know early on that if I ever had an affair, she would not divorce me, she would KILL me (maybe that's why I have taken such extraordinary precautions to avoid it). My own reaction to an affair by Joyce would be as drastic. But I wouldn't kill her, I'd just never see or talk to her again. <p>That's the way almost all couples feel about infidelity before it actually happens. They can't imagine living with someone who's been unfaithful. But what people think they will do, isn't what they usually do in this case. Surprisingly enough, after the dust settles, most couples try to reconcile. <hr></blockquote>

CD,<p>OH! I had no idea. I knew you were absent from the boards, but I never even suspected that it was marriage trouble. I just assumed that you were very busy with children (4?) and new job as paralegal.<p>I am so sorry. Yes, it seems that our WSs can do as much damage after Dday as Dday itself. I think when we discover that our spouse has been unfaithful, we feel a surge of love (needing?) because we are suddenly aware that marriage is not necessarily forever and that we could lose what we were just assuming would always be there. But when Dday comes around we assume that with hard work and the right plan we will be moving together toward a better life, a better marriage. <p>We make a Plan A, we work and we don't see much coming back at us. We talk about fog and our spouse's grief of the loss of their lover, but we never seem to talk about that the WS may have done so much damage to his or her own personality, self-esteem, morality that they cannot be better, sometimes they can't even be as good as they were. There is no Plan S (for self-esteem) for our spouses to follow. How is it we can learn to forgive them, but they can't learn to forgive themselves?<p>I am sorry that you are going through such a bad time. Do you know that the Harley's recommend Plan B whenever there is abuse? They say that the abusing spouse must remove himself from the marriage until he can guarantee that he has fixed himself enough to not harm the spouse. All pathologies must be fixed before true recovery can happen.<p>Are you still having visitation with Darling?<p>You are in my prayers,
MJ

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I wonder if people admire us for staying or do they secretly think that we're such fools!!!! I've always believed that once a cheater, always a cheater and now I'm trying to talk myself out of that so that I feel better about staying.<p> <hr></blockquote><p>TL...<p>I often ask myself that too.<p>Praying for us all,
Twiisty

To all - Thank you for your thoughts....<p>We are still having visitation with oc, but last weekend, which was a visitation weekend, I had to go to Maryland with our lawyer (my boss) on a business trip. H went to pick up oc friday evening as usual. When he got home with her, she overheard us talking about me leaving first thing saturday morning, and she started crying. I ended up sleeping with her that night and then after I left in the morning, h threw in the towel and took her home. She just didn't want to be there without me there. I called from the car later saturday night to tell h that I would be home that evening (instead of staying the night in MD as was originally planned) and he told me how he had to wait for four hours in ow's hometown for her to get off work before he could leave oc with her. Then I reminded him that I had left my housekeys there, and needed to be let in when I got there. He said, "I don't know what to tell you - but I'm not waiting around to let you in - I'm tired and I'm going to bed." I said, "But I don't have any keys to get in the house! What am I supposed to do?" He said, "I don't know - it's not my problem." In front of my boss and our clients, I had to suffer the humiliation of pleading to get in my own house!!!! I finally suggested that he leave the back door unlocked (our front door is old and can't be left unlocked from the inside) for me ,which would require me climbing over the backyard fence so that I could actually get in the house when I got there. He agreed. When I actually got home (at 9 or so, not like it was midnight or anything) H was awake anyway, so I didn't have to jump the fence - but it's just another example of how controlling and demeaning he has been lately. I just do not understand it at all.<p>A lot of our problems have to do with finances - we are in horrible shape, and h is ticked off that I am working so many hours to compensate. And yet, despite the continuous grief he gives me about my THREE jobs, he refuses to find additional work to ease the burden on me. Most days, due to lack of work at his job, he is home after just six or seven hours, while I usually leave the house at 7 am and don't get back until 9 or 10 at night. Then, he tells our children that "if mommy loved you more, she'd be here with you more." That is SO not true. I WANT to be home with our boys, but I can't because h is hardly making any money at all, and unless I keep plugging away, we'll lose everything. It's not fair to me, and I am tired of being yelled at and belittled in front of my children.

I had lunch with my mother on Saturday, and filled her in on how things are with my marriage. My mom wants me to get out of the whole thing. She seems to think that the marriage was never as good post-affair as I have been thinking it was. I don't know if I have been blind, or if my mom's version is skewed. I just don't know. Catnip, I think I am to the same point you are, but I do not know whether I even want to exert the energy of giving H the chance to make things right. I know that living alone and raising four kids would be tougher than anything I have ever done, but right now, it looks more appealing to me than staying in this marriage. <p>I'll try to get in more later - I am in the middle of teaching class right now. My students are taking a test, so I thought I'd sneak in some posting time [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>-cd

CD,<p>I am praying that you will find the strength and the wisdom to decide what you need to do...I too have four children and it frightens me at times of how I am to care for them at times...<p>I pray that things will get better for you and that you will find peace.<p>Hugs and praying for you,
Twiisty

cd-
After reading all these posts, I feel I need to clarify. I was not suggesting by my original response that we stay at all costs. I was merely addressing your questions about why we do this and why we dont cut our losses immediately. <p>Your h appears to be focused on himself and no one else. I tend to agree somewhat with catnip that he may be feeling so much self-loathing that he is hurting the one he loves the most. That does not justify what he is doing however...nothing justifies his words to your children about your love for them or the nonsense about letting you into the house.<p>I will pray for that God will give you the strength and guidance you need. I will also pray that God will work with your h. He needs much prayer.

cd<p>The cruelty your husband displays sounds as if it were not only intentional but a consciencious effort on his part to be mean. The 'why' in all this, I am convinced, is because he is painfully aware he is the cause of all this hardship and can't face it. He might see you are working three jobs to make up the difference as an assault on his 'bread winner' image; but, what's the alternative if he refuses to contribute? His lack of ambition to find additional work to relieve you of this burden almost sounds to me like he is deliberately making things tough so you will leave, thus giving him an easy out. My spouse did this as well, including the intentional cruelty. He was so overwhelmed with the domino effect of his actions, he was immobilized in his horror of the situation. He couldn't do anything. His only way to get some relief was to point the finger at me. He had to make me the enemy to justify being rotten.<p>I bet your husband isn't nuts about the fact the little girl prefers the company and comfort of being with you. Kids instinctively know when someone isn't 'right' and they will avoid them or steer clear of them as long as they have to. Our granddaughter wouldn't give Spouse the time of day whenever we were together. Spouse would ask, "Why doesn't she like me? She acts as if she is scared of me." He was visibly shaken by this as he has always been like the Pied Piper attracting dogs and kids alike the entire time I've known him. But, I told him straight out, "She knows you aren't right with yourself. She can sense your inner turmoil." <p>cd, your husband will be as inconsiderate, as thoughtless and as cruel as he needs to be to make you miserable as he is until he knows he has lost you. Then they 'get religion' and seem to take a turn back...but, often by then, you won't care much. Like me.<p>I too, thought life would be better alone than spending one more moment with spouse. I still feel that way but not because of ill-treatment anymore, but because I gave him huge chances, often and generously, yet the damage has been done. Now he can't stay away from me, now he is courting me like when we first knew each other.<p>My guess is that once you make up your mind that you are all done with C-Man, within a few weeks, you will see the same kind of 'courting' and ingratiating behavior in an attempt to mend the damage.<p>I am taking my sweet time on this, personally. I live with a friend and it is like being back in college. We go out with our other college friends to book club or plays and have a wonderful time. I work at a job that is very interesting and fun and pays OK, I look better than I have in years and am taking good care of myself because all I have to think about is me, me, me...for the first time in two decades. I quit smoking, I don't drink, I look 15 years younger than my age and I am being flirted with often (if I cared, that would be a real coup...too bad it matters not to me) I am writing daily, taking care of loose ends that have been hanging over my head and keeping in touch with people I've neglected over the past three horrific years. I talk to my kids more and if I have any time left over, I see Spouse. But, he is no longer my number one priority until if and when I recommit. He has to prove himself and it may take quite a while for him to do this. Since I have no plans, I have nothing but time...I could go on like this indefinitly.<p>C-Man is probably under the incorrect assumption that life would be easier if he didn't have to live with the horror of his actions on a daily basis and acknowledge what he has done to you, what he has put you through and live with himself. He doesn't realize that giving up would add more self disgust to his already self hatred for his damages. I really beleive this. It's just too much for him to bear, too much for him to face and he is ill equipped to deal with this without professional help or a huge wake up call from you, like Plan B or concrete boundaries.<p>Once he realizes that it ain't so bad if he makes the huge effort to fix things, that the two of you could/would be working together, you can and would forgive him and move on and he would be happier than he has ever been and closer to you than he ever imagined, if it isn't too late by then. Then you two could pull this marriage out of the abyss.
But take your time and make him work for it so he appreciates what he almost lost. <p>You are going to have to be the one to do something about this, cd, cause he can't/won't right now. Something has to shock him back into reality.<p>Love<p>Catnip =^^=

Hi cd,
Wow... I have a suggestion re: the housekeys, have some spare keys made and plant them in your garden in the front somewhere where only you know about. And keep another set in your wallet or your car or somewhere that you can easily find. I'm glad you didn't need to hop the fence in the dark.<p>Next time, he starts tripping out on the phone, hang up on him. You don't have to engage yourself in his stupidity. I'm sorry. Especially if others are around. Just smile and say Okay Dear I'll talk to you later. CLICK. And just leave him to be with his own bad attitude.<p>And regarding OC--very interesting how OC has bonded with YOU and not him! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Wow.<p>Wonder if he could be having second thoughts about visiting the baby at all!?! Hmmmm... sounds like he may resent the baby and like catnip said, the baby senses the rejection coming from him.

CD,
I don't have any advice... You know catnip is a great MB guru [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] I just want to say my heart goes out to you [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] and the kids for enduring such treatment from your H after all the excellent work you put into the situation. Maybe its somehow hurt his male pride, but I don't get it... why screw up AGAIN?! Anyway, many prayers hugs and angel wings to you.

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