I agree with Dr. Harley 100%.<p>And as far as what God would condone:<p>God sent Ishmael (OC) and his mother away. <p>TNT

Trustn, Tina, Twiisty, BeenTDT,
gabbi, Catnip, Julia, McKenzie, HeavenlyBody, Tryin4, Jenny, ToughSpice, JustKay, Tigger4,<p>Just got home from work and read the rest of these responses.<p>I want you all to remember when H showed up uninvited the SECOND time after I asked him to leave what he said to me "I'm not leaving you. I want you and miss you and love you. I will be the best husband you SHOULD have had and will never do anything again to hurt you. I am so very, very sorry for all I have done, will you please give me a chance? At least we have to TRY!"<p>Well I still saw attorney as I didn't know what I wanted then.<p>Fast forward to a month later at counsel session where priest wanna-be and H ask me to please TRY visits. I yelled and screamed and then thought because a PRIEST said it I should at least try it.<p>I set up visit. OW called and went nuts to me the next day saying if H wanted to see oc H should call! I remained calm and told her NO! He's my husband not yours. If the oc is what you're worried about then I will set things up and come for oc. Long story short she hung up on me and the craziness began all over again.<p>Just like the day H moved in on his own and ow left pictures in my mailbox of oc.<p>And drove past our house shouting out the window threatening to drop off oc.(I still wanted nothing to do w/oc then).<p>And a million other things including letters to me and to H which continued non-stop until October.<p>Our lawyer warned her lawyer of her actions and her lawyer was going to drop her as a client if she didn't stop.<p>When I think back now all I can remember is more pain. Wondering why I was doing this to myself?<p>I made it plain to H if he wanted to deal with the mess he could but he could count me totally out of the picture.<p>He saw it too and it wasn't that important to him any more. I was. His Mom and Dad were. Our son was.<p>Just goes to show you how confused we all were then.<p>Todays "PEOPLE" magazine came out with all the babies born to Moms after 911. They will never see "bio-dad". A shame. Lots of kids don't get to see their Mom or Dad because of divorce and moving away. The kids will still have a life.<p>I no longer feel guilty. If H does it's only for the situation he helped happen. He knows now and says now it would never work out. Not for the oc. Not for us. <p>God does what he thinks is best when satan plays with our lives. HE sometimes allows devastating situations to happen to force us back to HIS ways.<p>I always was with HIM. My pain was for my husband to see what an idiot he was to betray me. His pain is perhaps to know there's a child out there that he can never teach or grow with. That it would never be right to be there hardly ever. <p>Oh well, we live and learn. Then we go on. The best we can.<p>love
Debi

Most of you know my story. H didn't want to participate in OCs lives, or so he said. Then years later he does, unbeknownst to me ... and what happens? Our marriage was AGAIN ravaged with infidelity, too much temptation, and our marriage came to a tragic end. <p>I can say unequivicably that the OW my H is now with would have made the rest of our life unbearable. And my yardstick for that assessment is the 20+ months my H and I spent together participating in the OCs' lives. <p>During that 20+ months I listened to OW's voice pages to my H (unbeknowst to both of them) and according to her I was to blame for everything wrong in her life .... from her medical problems like her leaky silicone implants, to the fact she was broke (on Welfare) and we were doing okay (we both worked). She used every single manipulation known to man - her son, SEX, her son, guilt, her son, jealousy, her son ... it was truly unbelievable, just shocking. <p>For my situation and for possibly others on this board who's OW is a fatal attraction type, I'd have to say having no contact would be the only way to ensure a preditorial OW would not affect your marriage.<p>JMVHO<p>Jo<p>[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

I agree with Dr Harley's advice about no contact with OW and OC.<p>On the surface it may sound cruel, uncaring and unfair to OC, but the damage to the M AND OC (and the WS and BS's C's) caused by a vindictive OW is a well documented reality. It is infinitely much more cruel to OC to raise his/her hopes and then have them torn asunder by his/her vindictive mother.<p>If the vindictive OW realizes that nobody is going to play her cruel game, she is more apt to find somebody else and hopefully, concentrate on beign a real mother to her C.<p>On another subject. Why is it that christians need the old testament for moral back up? Shouldn't the new testament be enough?<p>Joe<p>[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: justanotherjoe ]</p>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by justanotherjoe:
[QB]<p>On another subject. Why is it that christians need the old testament for moral back up? Shouldn't the new testament be enough? [QB]<p>
I don't know if this comment was directed at my reply, but last i looked, Luke and Ephesians are out of the New Testament. And no, the New Testament is not enough... God's word is a package deal, it's all or nothing. It's like taking the gift of Christ from the New Testament and not taking the time to appreciate the Giver, God the Father. There is so much to be gained in the Old Testament and the New, just too much to ignore... jmho

JustanotherJoe,<p>Also in answer to your query, Jesus Himself spoke and said, "I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it..." (Matthew 5:17)<p>I believe the whole applies to all and that God set His standards both in the New and Old Testament...<p>Have a good one!
In His Grace,
Twiisty

Sorry to jump in, but if you could explain these quotes from the bible it sure would be appreciated:<p>Matthew 18
1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.<p>Matthew 18
10"See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.[1]
12"What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.<p>Matthew 19
13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."<p>Mark 9
36He took a little child and had him stand among them. Taking him in his arms, he said to them, 37"Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me."<p>Mark 10
13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.<p>Luke 1
17And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous--to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."<p>Luke 18
15People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.<p>2 Corinthians 12
14Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. 15So I will very gladly spend for you everything I have and expend myself as well. If I love you more, will you love me less?

And a dove cannot fly on one wing.<p>The New Testament constantly refers back to the old over and over and over and over again. <p>The Old Testament gives us our history and prophecies, preparing us for the birth of Christ.
The concordence offers 'back up' referrals between the Old and New Testaments to assist us in understanding the Word.<p>Catnip =^^=

Another Bible quote which deserve our attention is Genesis 21:9-21, in which Sarah tells Abraham "Send this slave and her son away." <p>God says to Abraham "Don't be worried about the boy[Ishmael] and your slave Hagar. Do whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that you will have the descendants I have promised. I will also give many children to the son of the slave woman, so that they will become a nation. He too is your son."<p>Verse 20: "God was with the boy [Ishmael] as he grew up; he lived in the wilderness of Paran and became a skillful hunter."
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Peace in the home, in the marriage, took precedence over a child not of the marriage, and God cared for that child materially and spiritually even without Abraham paying child-support! Isn't HE great??!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Amen!
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And who can forget: Hebrews 13 "Marriage should be honored by all."

and, oh, someone give me the chapter: "what God has bound together, let no one put asunder."<p>We can love and pray for the OC without accepting personal responsibility for OC's emotional life, which is so much outside of our control in these cases even if we ARE involved with OC!<p>[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Jenny ]</p>

I apologize for beign the initial hijacker of this thread with my question about why christians use the old testament for moral back up and not the new testament entirely.<p>I do not profess to be a bible scholar (that is plainly evident) but I do remember reading that after the death of Jesus, two factions arose in christianity. One faction led by one of the original disciples (John?) which beleived that in order to become a christian a person had to first become a jew. This faction was located essentially in Jerusalem. And the other faction led by Paul, which beleived that it was not necessary for pagan people to first become jews before becoming christians because it would infringe a culture foreign to them and they would thus reject becoming christians. This faction, like it's leader Paul, was all over the old world preaching the word of Jesus.<p>When the romans burned the city of Jerusalem, the faction that beleived in first becoming jews before becoming christians, were killed off. This left the faction led by Paul to thrive and thus christianity subsequently conquered the roman empire and the rest of Europe.<p>If this story is true, then christianity owes its very survival and prosperity more to the adoption of the new testament than the old testament by the pagan peoples of Europe.<p>Joe<p>[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: justanotherjoe ]</p>

Matthew 18
1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.<p>Little ones are not sinners in the eyes of God, if their parents do not teach them what is pure in the eyes of God then they have sinned. <p>Children born through marriage is what God wants. A covenant of God is what marriage is. Children of marriage should be welcomed by their parents.<p>
Matthew 18
10"See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.[1]
12"What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.<p>Sheep here refers to God showing man to follow his ways. If a sinner is repentant and follows the ways of the Lord it means more to God for he turned them to HIM, he found the sheep and took it home.
Lost sheep refers to one of Gods children who lost his way with God.<p>Matthew 19
13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."<p>
Innocent children are not sinners. God is close to all his children who trust in him. Therefore the kingdom of Heaven belongs to those "children" who follow his word.<p>Mark 9
36He took a little child and had him stand among them. Taking him in his arms, he said to them, 37"Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me."<p>
Welcome children willingly through the covenant of marriage. That is what God intended. That is welcoming God and what he intended.<p>Mark 10
13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.<p>Again, the kingdom of Heaven is promised to non sinners.<p>Luke 1
17And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous--to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."<p>
God did turn my husbands heart to our son who was shown a horrible life lesson. My husbands' disobedience was turned to righteous by staying with us and repenting to God for his wayward walk with satan. By making things right with me again he turned his heart to our son. <p>Luke 18
15People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.<p>The kingdom of heaven belongs to all who follow God's ways. Children do not sin.<p>2 Corinthians 12
14Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. 15So I will very gladly spend for you everything I have and expend myself as well. If I love you more, will you love me less? <p>Parents "saving up" to children is showing them examples of living through the Lord. God as our Father shows us love every day. He expends himself. Loves us. He loves the sinner more by revealing their sins eventually, then will they be angry and love him less? It's usually a wake up call. To go back to God and quit a sinful way of life.<p>Hoped this helped.<p>love
Debi<p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 1 | Registered: Feb 2002 | IP: Logged

Thanks Debi<p>I also like these verses:<p>Matthew 5<p> 7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.<p>God Bless.......jm2c

jm2c you're welcome! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Peace to you too.
love
Debi

Dear Jm2c,<p>I know some other people have already answered your ?s about the selected bible verses. Gem did a good job already, but i have my little bit to add:<p>Mt 18:1-6, Mark 9:36-37 <p>Christ taught using parables and metaphors. This is a classic example: Christ gathered a child to him in response to the question of which disciple would be the greatest. Christ was teaching that to be the greatest in character a sinful man needs to adapt to the character of a child. A child is born an innocent into a corrupted world. Only after time in the world does the child become corrupt also. Initially, they know no pride, selfishness, deceit, etc. Christ was conveying that fleshly man needs to revert back to that child-like quality if they want to attain the righteousness of God, the Father.<p>Mt 18: 10-14<p>Once again, Christ speaks in metaphor. He is talking about Christians. The one sheep is a wayward Christian who strays and becomes lost in sin. The Lord takes great pleasure in reclaiming a wayward Christian back to his righteousness. God takes more pleasure in that because that type of experience strengthens a person's faith more than being part of the safe "flock", because that faith (the safe flock) can unfortunately (not always) grow stagnant.<p>Mt 19: 13-14, Mark 10: 13-14, Luke 18:15-16<p>Once again, speaking of the innocence of children. Christ was not saying that only children go to heaven obviously. Before Christ became the blood sacrifice for all mankind and saved us all by grace, the only way to attain heaven was by faith and through obedience of God's law and live with a pure godly heart like the uncorrupted heart of a child. Christ was trying to teach those around him once again that they needed to cleanse themselves of all wickedness, impurity and sin, reverting back to a child-like state.<p>Luke 1:17<p>This verse has to do with the angel of the Lord appearing to Zechariah foretelling the birth of his son, John the Baptist and the greatness of what God was going to use John to achieve. The people of Isreal at that time were a lost people, blind to God's ways and John was going to be sent to preach the gospel and convert non-believers through repentance and baptism. The people had hardened hearts of evil and hatred, lacking love even for their own family members. That's what's meant when the verse says..."to turn the hearts of fathers to the children"<p>2 Cor 12:14-15<p>This verse simply states that parents are to lead and guide children; children are not to guide parents (unfortunately this is what is happening with children and parents these days, not enough discipline or none at all).<p>
JustanotherJoe,
It was explained to me that since the jewish people are God's chosen people that ideally it would have been required to be a jew to be a christian, but christ changed that and sent the disciples out amongst the gentiles to preach the gospel so that "none should perish".<p>just my humble two cents.<p>God Bless,
D<p>[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Davidv2 ]</p>

Davidv2,<p>I just wanted to let you know that I felt your response was well thought and presented! Thank you for your insight!<p>Tigger

Up to go with the new thread from the GQ2 board!

Hello to everyone,<p> It's been awhile since I've posted anything. I have been keeping up with the board comtemplating whether or not to post any replies. This is a subject that seems to really get everyone attention, mine included.
My family has struggled with what to do about visitation since the very discovery of my xH's OC. We thought about how it would effect our children, marriage, and extended family. My first reaction was to run like the wind from the whole situation, but I didn't think that would be fair to my children.
The woman in my case was not unreasonable, but she was very defensive. I don't blame her, I get defensive when it comes to my children too. I wanted my children to know their brother/sister. I felt that they had the right to know this person that was an offspring of their father.
Maybe it was easier for me because I knew that my marriage wasn't going to survive, we had already had infidelity on my part and his. I know that my xH is a good person, just very confused. He does right by his children, mine and hers, he is a good father.
Needless to say, our marriage came to end about a year after she gave birth to his child. That baby has always been welcome to be with her siblings. And while my xH and I were together it was not an option to have NC with this child. He made her and he, as long as I had anything to with it, was going to take care of her just as he did our children.
I know this wasn't an ideal situation, it never is. It wasn't that baby's fault that my xH decided to make bad choices, I didn't want her to have to pay for it. The xOW, xH, and I still have contact because of the children. We all want what's best for the kids.
To comment on whether or not I think visitation is better left until the child is old enough to decide if they want it - no, I don't think that is the way to go. I believe it would have been a lot harder to introduce my children to thier sister if she were older rather than if she were a baby. Not to mention the mental health of the little girl, she would have her whole life flooded with strangers claiming to be related to her. That's what happened to me.
I was 19 when my father told me he had a son, my brother, out there that I had never met. He was scared and took the easy way out. Consequently, I missed out on having a great person involved in our family for 19 years. It was such a life change but I wouldn't give my brother up for anything. I love him very much. My children love their sister. My xH loves his daughter. I love the Xow's baby.
We all have to do what we think is necessary, I did. But, I don't agree that NC is the answer for everyone in this sitation.
Here's my question, it's for those of you that haven't yet established visitation or for those of you where the child isn't yet born. Are you and H going to try to have visitation with the child or not? Are you going to abide by what Dr. Harley said regarding visitation? Just curious, just want some honest replies. Don't worry about offending me if this an issue you feel very strongly about. I think I may have heard it all. <p>Thanks for listening, I hope everything turns out ok for all of you [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

And, just to keep everything clear regarding my situation - a lot of things have changed since my last posting.<p>I have 2 children, 1 is my bio-child and the older child is from xH's previous marriage. xH has no idea where his mother is, she left when he was young and has been in and out of his life, he calls me Mom. D lives with me, S lives with xH. At the end of last month, xH had a huge reality check when his brother was killed in a car accident. I guess he sees the value of life and how much kids need their father. He changed his attitude toward being a father and now he does a great job of it, to all of his children AND his brother's children. I have no problem with him coming around, and yes, D does call him daddy now instead of nothing at all. And much to my dismay, the children are all SPOILED rotten!! <p>I was totally shocked how he changed his ways in what seemed like overnight. I'm very happy that he was able open his eyes before it was too late.

This is a serious question as I am truly trying to understand the mindset here. It is obvious from some of these post that some(not all) of the women posting feel a great hatred and genuine aversion towards the OC. My question is, how can you so easily hate an innocent child who has never done anything to hurt you (the childs mere exhistance is not thier fault, it is the fault of your H and the OW) and still go on to love, forgive and continue to live with the very men who caused this aversion in your lives? Again, this is a serious question so please don't jump down my throat!!

I am mom to 2children with one on the way. SO's child with someone else is unborn also and (supposedly) four months behind mine. I haven't even decided whether or not I'm staying with him but I've pretty much decided I will not be having anything to do with this child either way. I don't hate the child, I just don't want to be involved with it [by the way Want It Back, I don't mean "it" in a bad way I sometimes call my unborn "it" b/c I don't know the sex]. I have brothers and sisters that are somewhere out there that my father doesn't even mention, and I don't mind a bit that I've never met them or really know anything about them, so I don't feel bad not telling my children this child exists, if they find out somehow, well, I haven't thought that out yet, but I'm sure they'll be much older than they are now. If I stay with him I know he is the type of person who will take care of his children, we will have to compromise on the oc. I will still not welcome this child with open arms, and yes, that probably makes me selfish and is a real big no no for some. But thats where I'm at right now. I don't mean to make the child feel unloved by me or unwelcome, but that is how I feel, no way I can hide it. As for the burning building metaphor, if it were the only child in the building of course I would save it, wouldn't hesitate, would do the same for any child. I just don't want this constant reminder in my face all the time, a relationship with SO would never get better, because I wouldn't be able to let go of the resentment (not towards the child but towards the situation). I hope this makes sense, as I'm still working out my feelings on this topic. When asked why stay with the man? If I stay it will be because I love him and I am trying to forgive him, and because he is making the effort I need for him to, and also because I want my children to have their daddy. It sounds bad, I know, cause I feel it, but I just don't care right now whether the oc has its daddy or not, I feel like its not my responsibility to make sure it does. But I won't stop him from being there, I don't know how much he'll be able to do or how much he'll want to do, considering I don't want to be involved. We'll figure it out.<p>Right now I'm just hoping she's faking to get him to be with her, and I'll hold on to that until I see a test or a really big belly.