JL<p>While I understand what you are trying to get across to the ladies here, perhaps a lesson in Boy-Speak would be helpful.<p>That being said, I have noticed that while I was extremely disarming in my requests for comfort after D-Day, (pre-MB), my husband also saw this as a weakness in me, a kind of groveling, which I think made me unattractive to him.<p>I believe, looking back, that I could have avoided feeling a gross lack of self respect by having the strength to express honestly what I needed from him to heal without being a door mat out of fear of having him leave me for OW, if I would have known then what I know now. <p>Had I felt then as I do today, I would have had a great deal more self respect, and most likely respect from him, and whether or not he supplied me with what I needed or not, it wouldn't have mattered so much. But, feeling as I do today was a process. <p>I no longer care which way the tree falls because I know I can survive either way. Because I feel this way, my husband has picked up on the new me and is extremely sensitive to my needs and gives me everything I need and more, and I in turn give him everything he needs, working hard to meet all his requirements. But not at my expense.<p>There is a fine line and it is a lot of work to balance all of this effectively. <p>My complaint is that it is too much work and it shouldn't have to be. Being accepting and loving of one another when things aren't perfect is what marriage is really supposed to be. It pains me that we all seem so self involved that we cannot be ourselves or love each other in spite of our differences. That it is so threatening to be generous of spirit with our spouses, the one person we should be able to trust and love and offer the same in return.<p>I've spent four years being extremely disappointed and confused that any of this ever happened at all (there was no reason for any of it) and resentful it took so long for him to 'get it'. All my efforts at being disarming and diplomatic, meekly asking for comfort for the pain he caused was humiliating. It wasn't until I was all done trying that he got scared and boldly rushed forward. Almost too little too late. Just under the wire. And THAT pisses me off.<p>Oh, how I wish I would not have cared so much to begin with. But, in the beginning, we are so scared, so damaged and wounded, we panic and grovel and feel even more hurt as they inflict more pain onto the existing pain.<p>So, having to ask for comfort is seen as giving orders is really their perspective and not reality. If your wife said to you, "JL, I really need to be held" would it really be that different from your CO saying "JL, I really need to to take this to the General by 4 o'clock". Both are similar in delivery but is one considered and order and one considered a request, respectively? I'd say both have the same delivery but the recipient of the message is taking it two different ways. If this is the case, I would also say that the recipient is a chowderhead.<p>Sometimes, JL, I just want to round up a bus load of these WS's and slap them silly. I am so infinitely tired of these baby-men.<p>Catnip =^^=

Catnip,<p>If my W asked me to hold her, I would be delirious. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] You see I have the opposite problem. My W is very independent and requests NOTHING from me although she spends my paycheck. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] But, other than that there is no feedback. That is how I came to this site over 3 years ago.<p>Interesting isn't? The extreme in either case is not good is it?<p>If you want my candid opinion the two great motivators in life seem to be "fear and Greed". Fear of losing something, or many other things, and Greed needing things from other people or what they have. I was warned by my father years ago, that this was the case. But the warning he really gave me was to watch out for those that appear to NOT be motivated in that way. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Catnip, the reality of it from my perspective is that as humans we don't change too much from when we were children, young children. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Civilization, religion, society smooth out the rought spots, but basically we are still children.<p>Just as a child your H wouldn't move until he "feared" losing you and perhaps another man joining your life. I as well as you have seen this time after time.<p>It doesn't matter if it is a female or a male, it seems to be that way.<p>Even Harley's approach is designed to overcome the "fear/greed" part of the marriage. <p>I will only say one thing about "male" speak, it does exist and it exists because of our (males) role in society. (We are expendable and we know it.) I saw where a female firefighter in NY was complaining that women were left out of the honors for NY fireman killed in 9/11, because no women died. She felt women should have been better represented. HELLO, IS SHE NUTS??? No, probably not, but I would think that a bit of "greed" is seeping into her thinking. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Most men think so. Dying like those men did is NOT what they planned for their lives or their children's lives. But, it does come with the territory.<p>Catnip, I really cannot answer your questions. They are reasonable, but the answers require an understanding far deeper than anyone on this planet has. So I recommend the simple approach: fear and greed. <p>God Bless,<p>JL

Wow, have we gone far astray but it is a great topic and the first time I have seen boy speak/girl speak addressed here. It reminded me of a book that I read, oh a good ten or twelve years ago. It is called "You Just Don't Understand" and is by Deborah Tannen. She is a linguist who studied men and women's conversation patterns. She doesn't say that either is right or wrong but that it behoves both genders to know about the differences.<p>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_67_1/102-2382792-6391349<p>Gotta go dig out my copy. Now if they just made one for English-speaking parents of Russian-speaking kids! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>MJ

MJ,<p>Went and looked at the review of the book you mentioned. I believe she may have it right, but mostly she expressed in the excerpt what I was trying to say in this thread.<p>Hopefully, even the excerpt will help explain what I was trying to say.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

You know, JL, you're right.<p>For an example, Bipolar asked me if it was OK with me if he bought something for his truck. I was annoyed thinking of our financial situation and the fact we were in terrible straits because of him and what he has done...and that we would continue to be behind probably the rest of our lives. I smoldered and stewed for a few minutes, felt resentful and was not honest when I said, "Go ahead!" It was not permission, it was a dare.<p>He looked at me in shock, clearly caught off balance, then carefully measured my body language. He narrowed his eyes and said, "This is a trick, isn't it? You don't mean it and you're going to make me pay later, aren't you?". He reminded me of Nicholson in "As Good As It Gets" why he was always pissing everyone off and couldn't figure out what he was doing wrong.<p>I couldn't help it. I burst out laughing realizing what I had done to him and his reaction was hilarious. Fortunately for me, Bipolar's humor is outrageous and found it equally as funny. I apologized, I dropped the sarcasm and the cryptic double messages and Bipolar realized that spending $200 on truck toys wasn't gonna happen.<p>The female firefighter looking for equal time is an insensitive idiot. This is my point, JL!!!! Everyone thinks everything is about them and in direct relation to them! I hate this! It was as upsetting reading this as it was hearing that Clinton is 'disappointed' the tragedy didn't occur during his administration so he could show the country what he could do and garner some kind of legacy for himself. I mean! Really!!!! It's all about THEM. Someone should set up a blind date for the firefighter looking for self glorification at the expense of all those thousands of lives lost with that dolt no one misses that used to defile the White House. (hiss)<p>And finally, JL, I'm not blowing smoke up your shorts when I say your wife must have rocks in her head to not want or need your tenderness. Does she know you come here? Has coming here helped you? Are you "addicted" to this place? I'm pretty sure I am.<p>March is a busy month for us. It was my birthday last Tuesday. On March 22, Bipolar and I would have been married 22 years. We're going to celebrate our Un-Anniversary in a hotel for the weekend. Room service, pay per view movies, a king size bed and I can't wait. On March 25th, Bipolar turns 53. I was watching him today in the book store while he was browsing. He thought I was browsing, too, when in fact, I was watching him over the book I pretended to peruse. He looks so good and is so fit. If he shaved off his grey beard, he'd look maybe early forties. It's just numbers, isn't it? But, at some point in our lives, at some age, aren't we supposed to have reached some level of understanding and selflessness? Does it take something as catastrophic as an affair with disasterous results to force us to grow up and put the spouse as their first priority before themselves?<p>I feel I am about to find myself in one of those pivotal moments very soon.<p>Thanks for the explanation on gender languages and interpretation, JL. And thanks, Mary Janes, for the link. I am very fascinated with this topic.<p>Catnip =^^=

up for newbies

Dug this up by accident.....hope it helps all in pain on what to do.....

Debi

******edit******

Bye-bye sorry..

<small>[ March 20, 2005, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

I haven't had a chance to read the entire thread yet, but thank you for bumping this up - Lost & I will be struggling to put this issue of C/NC to rest throughout the summer as the due date approaches. He seems resolute that NC is best for ALL concerned, but I worry he'll change his mind, and I even go into that fantasy-land place that if he did decide C was needed, that psycho STOW would suddenly become a good mom and handle the situation with grace. Yeah, right. She would/will make our lives a living h@ll every day once C was established. Thank you for letting us learn from all the shared experience on this board.

Wow, I just read the first page of this thread and it makes me sad in so many ways.

Tiggy's very brief history:

Married 1st husband at 16.
Had first child at 17.
He was an alcoholic, in and out of treatment centers during first 5 years marriage.
He finally acheived and maintained sobriety for 9 years but never dealt with his sexual addiction.
At 14 years of marriage he started an affair.
I threw him out and he divorced me and married ow.


Shortly after we seperated (maybe a couple of months) I dated a man who was seperated from his wife.
After a couple of months we stopped seeing each other but I came out pregnant.

Divorce was finalized about 5 months later.
A couple of months after that my ex put a pistol in his mouth and shot himself.
Two months later I gave birth to my daughter.

Her bio father had reconciled with his wife, who was pretty understandably hostile towards me, so I never sought CS or C.

Made me sad at first that my daughter would never have a father.

Then I met my current husband, who is her daddy.

Then this husband is a stinker too and had an affair last year for about 3 weeks. (Can I pick um or what? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )
My great fear all this past year, still is actually, is that OW got pregnant. We don't live in the same town so we don't know mutual people or anything.

----------------------------------------------
I guess I just wanted to say that NC can be okay even on the OC or OW end. I think this has to be an individual choice with each situation though. Do what is best for your marriage. Do what is best for the child. And it isn't best for the child IMHO if the affair could strike up again or continue on. That just sets up another child to become a WS or OP in my opinion.

This thread just stirred something in me and just wanted to share with you all. The OC is not an *it* whoever said that. The OC is an innocent.

Just FYI my daughter is almost 9 now and she is fine. I finally told her about her bio father because she was starting to put 2 and 2 together but made it clear there is a difference between father and daddy. She has a daddy.

Hugs to all who are touched by this very difficult situation. May God grant you super wisdom as you sort this out and figure what is best for you.

Tiggy

Thank You Debi.


BTW: it's time to plant those seeds.

<small>[ March 20, 2005, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

My goodness, Kt, do you remember how many seeds I received?
Have to wait till it's warmer here, still in the 30's ugh~

Tiggy, thanks for sharing, you're right, each situation is different. Seems as though yours worked out for the best.


Lost (hello BTW), you are so fresh to all of this. It is why I re-posted this. We were past visitation, and Dr. Harley finally answered my e-mail to him. We counseled w/him too and he was marvelous to both of us.

I still maintain starting visitation too soon before helping to solve marital problems can lead to danger and have seen it over and over in these past 4 1/2 years.

If the WS is willing to work together w/the BS usually an arrangement can work out.... but later is better.

Kids are so young when this all happens or not yet born.

So. The husband and wife who are willing to reunite must do so together without outside infidelity related influences....hence oc. Ow is a given if there is an oc.

If it is (usually) totally out of the realm for the BS to deal with(oc) and WS wants BS above all else, then negotiate a POJA, an honesty policy, and begin filling each others love banks w/o too many LB'S.

A great counselor is important too. Harleys are without a doubt the best on this issue. They have seen and heard it all~

If nothing can be resolved then it is best to leave the offending spouse to discourage any more hurt/pain/suffering, and seek IC to help you along. Rest assured that you will have brighter days.

I am writing testimony for that bit of info and would have been ok no matter what the outcome of my marriage.

It is through tough work and renewed love that I can talk of past experiences and help others facing this.

Godspeed to all newbies. Prayers for your peace today.

This post was to help not hurt anyone nor tell anyone that it's the only way.

A few have gone another route but it is still too soon to know what state the marriage is in because we haven't heard from too many success stories that do have early on contact....

Blessings to all in pain.
love
Debi

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jenny:
<strong> Another Bible quote which deserve our attention is Genesis 21:9-21, in which Sarah tells Abraham "Send this slave and her son away."

God says to Abraham "Don't be worried about the boy[Ishmael] and your slave Hagar. Do whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that you will have the descendants I have promised. I will also give many children to the son of the slave woman, so that they will become a nation. He too is your son."

Verse 20: "God was with the boy [Ishmael] as he grew up; he lived in the wilderness of Paran and became a skillful hunter."
------------------------------
Peace in the home, in the marriage, took precedence over a child not of the marriage, and God cared for that child materially and spiritually even without Abraham paying child-support! Isn't HE great??!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Amen!
-------------------------------
And who can forget: Hebrews 13 "Marriage should be honored by all."

and, oh, someone give me the chapter: "what God has bound together, let no one put asunder."

We can love and pray for the OC without accepting personal responsibility for OC's emotional life, which is so much outside of our control in these cases even if we ARE involved with OC! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jenny, you stole my thunder because I thought the same thing.

Bump for newbies <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jenny,

Thanks for bumping this, I hadn't stumbled across it before. This is such a tough issue, that carries fear and guilt no matter your decision. I don't have time to read it all yet but will later .

Thanks!!

FTS

Jenny this was good to bump up for newbies~ It was the words of Dr. Harley that caused quite a stir around here.

We had already agreed on nc. In our case it was my fear of H continuing to see ow on a regular basis at first, then her treatment toward me, then just plain sick of her calling my H whenever she felt like it, totally ignoring 'our rules' that she go through me. It was such a horrible ordeal.

My pain was so great I thought I'd never recover. I knew I just couldn't deal with an oc. All of our families supported that. It took about 3 months of bull for my H to say he didn't want to have such a turmoiled life any longer.

I still agree with Dr. Harley.

I have yet to see 'blending' happen without trouble at almost evey turn. Worst of all the troubles between the H and W that contact almost always causes allowing no time for repairing the marriage. Just going from the frying pan into the fire.

God Bless all dealing with this.

You will survive no matter what the outcome. It's all in God's plan.

love
Debi

These stories of families suffering with coming to terms with children that are the product of infidelity are very sad. Clearly, the wives of adulterous men really feel that their lives are entirely out of their control.

But I'd like to make a point about all these mentions of Abram and Sarai, and biblical verses -- Really, most of these are irrelevant, because in the biblical tale, Hagar was subject to Sarai's whim from the start, she was Sarai's servant, and the whole arrangement was Sarai's from the beginning.

Consequently, nothing else said from that point bares comparison.

It's comparing apples and motor oil.

I told my husband the same thing- I am not quite sure if it was in anger. I don't want anything to do with the child. If he does, fine. I have three children I have to take care of and it is very hard on me. It has only been a week- TODAY

Mending,

How are you? I just passed my 3yr dday. It hasn't changed. The good news is that we are NC. Our COM are the top priorities in our lives after our M. The OC is the child of the OW. My H (who adores everyones children) does not see the OC as his. She stole his decision making right. We all have our own way of dealing with this. What works for you is what is right. God Bless, hope your making it through each day.

Fled

Hi all, I am the husband of a wife who is now pregnant with the OMs child and will give birth on July 16 (they will induce labor). She told me she was pregnant with OMs baby as soon as she found out back at the end of Nov07. We have been going to marriage counseling every since. We have a family who is set to adopt the child but my W just bought a package of diapers even though she says that we are in agreement on the adoption even though we both know that at the momment of decision, she may very well change her mind and chose to keep the baby.

I was drawn to this string because if we do keep the baby, the OM has stated that he will attempt to get at least partial custody. My wife has agreed to NC, but if we keep B and OM files legal, then it will be almost impossible to maintain the NC. Also, we dont want this OM who is not a good man, having any contact with this child. The adoption would make sure that OM could not have contact. I have checked with lawyer and its pretty sure thing that way, but it will be hard for my W to give up B. We have 3 other chilren and been married 19.5 years.

I need something to read up on how to deal with the grief that my W will experience if she goes through with the adoption and also how to deal with this if she wont let the B go and decides to keep it?

Any answers out there for this one? God bless and thanks.