For any type of closure with W do I have to sacrifice my relationship with my sons? I feel like I have only two choices, either remain with my wife whom I love deeply or leave and continue the typical part-time father/son relationship. It has become clear to me over the weekend that my sons have probably given up on their mother and may not ever accept her back into their lives. It has been over a year and I don&#8217;t see any progress on their part and even though I can see it is affecting their lives, they do not feel the need for any outside help, that is, no therapy or counseling. Would it be much different if we lived a great distance from them with little chance of visiting them? I just don&#8217;t know.<p>Our youngest son went to dinner with me and expressed his anger about his mother to me even going as far as saying that she will never be welcomed in their home. He told me that the only time we, as a couple, will be invited is on Christmas Eve. I was naïve enough to believe that his wife&#8217;s pregnancy and subsequent voluntary contact with W was a sign of future softening, but after listening to him vent I am sure he regrets even this small gesture.<p>Another event coincided with this revelation. We were able to keep our grandson over the weekend and this joy was undermined by my oldest son&#8217;s wife&#8217;s comments when she dropped him off. She suggested that we pick up the orthodontics bill for him. I love him dearly but we feel that this is a form of blackmail, using him as a pawn, while still punishing W since the oldest son refuses to speak to her at all and the DIL' attitude towards the W is cool to say the least. <p>All in all it was not a good weekend. W was crying and venting to me and I feel helpless. The only thing I can do is be there to listen. She sometimes won&#8217;t even allow me to hold her and comfort her because she is so lost and confused by them. I feel like I don&#8217;t have the energy to try to help W and the boys at the same time. W said it would have been easier for me to adjust with our sons if we had divorced and I&#8217;m not altogether sure that is not true but I have made my choice now. <p>She means so much to me and I don&#8217;t know how to help her through this.<p>While I am at it I might as well vent about another thing that is disturbing me. W is very upset that I am using this site and sometimes Key Bridge Center to communicate my feelings. She feels that since she is not &#8220;allowed&#8221; to talk in chat rooms I am punishing her by doing the same thing. I understand her feelings however I can&#8217;t convince her that I am not here to socialize but to vent without hurting her and to tap the accrued knowledge of those in similar situations. The other point is that I never disallowed her to use AOL but I requested that if she did I must have her password. This may seem like the same thing to her but it means something totally different to me. I don&#8217;t know whether she doesn&#8217;t trust me or if perhaps she doesn&#8217;t trust herself. I am aware that this is not an endearing thought on my part (LB) and I thought we were beyond that. I feel that I have given up many things that I enjoy (some that I miss a great deal) in order to continue this relationship but I should be able to draw the line somewhere.<p>It seemed that no matter what I did or said this weekend was the right thing and I know for a fact that hormones are not to blame. I guess it is depression doing the deed. I am tired of walking on the eggshells and I want some solid ground underfoot.

Thanks for listening
God bless<p>Usedlongago

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Usedlongago:
<strong>"For any type of closure with W do I have to sacrifice my relationship with my sons? I feel like I have only two choices, either remain with my wife whom I love deeply or leave and continue the typical part-time father/son relationship."<p>Your sons are adults (?) and no longer need a full time father. You vows, regardless that your wife broke hers, was to cling unto her, forsaking all others and be as one. I wouldn't allow my kids to force me to make a choice. If they did that to me, they certainly wouldn't love me or care about me.<p>--------------------------------------------------
"It has become clear to me over the weekend that my sons have probably given up on their mother and may not ever accept her back into their lives."<p>I'm sorry. But, why is it effecting them so much? Were they themselves little ones at the time this all happened? Was she abusive to the boys? Or neglectful?
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"Our youngest son went to dinner with me and expressed his anger about his mother to me even going as far as saying that she will never be welcomed in their home. He told me that the only time we, as a couple, will be invited is on Christmas Eve."<p>Your son is being cruel to you. YOU are the one suffering the most here and your son is selfishly playing victim here to manipulate(?) you. I mean, how ridiculous..."She's not allowed in my house-ever!-errr...except for Christmas Eve".
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"Another event coincided with this revelation. We were able to keep our grandson over the weekend and this joy was undermined by my oldest son&#8217;s wife&#8217;s comments when she dropped him off. She suggested that we pick up the orthodontics bill for him."<p>Aahhh, the plot thickens. My first reaction/observation, inclination and immediate response is that you are indeed being blackmailed. The whole lot of them seem to be using you or trying to and are manipulating you and acting as if they are the victims here completely insensitive to the pain you have been going through. I mean I can see why the one son is distraught by all this because he was the one not knowing the circumstacnes of his birth, true? But the rest of them are jumping on the bandwagon to take advantage of the situation, from what I am reading here.
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"I love him dearly but we feel that this is a form of blackmail, using him as a pawn, while still punishing W since the oldest son refuses to speak to her at all and the DIL' attitude towards the W is cool to say the least."<p>Is this the son who did not know of his birth circumstances? And why is DIL "cool" towards wife? They all seem to be getting a lot of mileage out of this situation and all acting very self-righteous and wounded...and the worst part is that it is working! You ARE being manipulated!
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"While I am at it I might as well vent about another thing that is disturbing me. W is very upset that I am using this site and sometimes Key Bridge Center to communicate my feelings. She feels that since she is not &#8220;allowed&#8221; to talk in chat rooms I am punishing her by doing the same thing."<p>You need this site and you need Key Bridge to heal. If she is grousing about that, then she is being very, very selfish and not thinking of your pain, what she put you through, only thinking of herself and what she wants and obviously not too concerned with what will make you feel better and heal. You NEED these sites to learn, grow and cope and heal. It is not the same thing at all.
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"I understand her feelings however I can&#8217;t convince her that I am not here to socialize but to vent without hurting her and to tap the accrued knowledge of those in similar situations."<p>Let her come here and read the posts. Her eyes will glaze over with boredom as she reads the same paragrapgh over and over and will see it ain't so exciting here nor do we form some weird secret society or have secret handshakes. Many Waywards come here at first feeling threatened or curious only to find it benign. Once they see this is just about healing, they aren't threatened anymore.
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"The other point is that I never disallowed her to use AOL but I requested that if she did I must have her password. This may seem like the same thing to her but it means something totally different to me."<p>I completely agree with you. Sounds reasonable to me! Dr. Harley or Dr. Phil (one of them-can't remember) said that it is up to the Betrayed Spouse to determine what the boundaries are, what the rules are, what they can and cannot live with. This is something she should willingly do as her show of remorse anddesire to heal the marraige. She has to do 'something" to prove she means it. She sounds like she spends a lot of time feeling sorry for herself. She should be feeling sorry for you and what she did to you and what this did to you and how you feel. And so should your sons.
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"I feel that I have given up many things that I enjoy (some that I miss a great deal) in order to continue this relationship but I should be able to draw the line somewhere.
I am tired of walking on the eggshells and I want some solid ground underfoot."</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Then it is time for you to stop allowing your wife and sons to have power over you. It's time for you to call the shots. They will all respect that and stop bullying you. You only go around once in this life and you weren't not meant to be lowly victim. Resurrect the things you like to do...don't give up a thing. <p>Good luck and God bless<p>Catnip =^^=

ULA,<p>As you know I am not in your position, but I thought I would post if to do nothing else get a dialogue going. Hopefully, others will chime in.<p>I guess I have a few thoughts. One is time, it has only been a year. Two, they are adult children that have had their world torn apart. In theory they should be able to handle these things, but the reality is your W did them enormous damage. <p>I know you and W are slightly older than I so perhaps you have been through what my W and I have. Her parents and my father all passed away very close together over 14 years ago. The loss was hugh although we were both well established had our own family everything. There was still a strong emotional dependence.<p>My guess is that your boys feel as if they lost their mother and the woman that shows up now is an imposter. This takes time ULA and patience.<p>I don't think you will have to choose between the boys and your W. I think you will need to gradually open up lines of communications with them on your own. I also think that if they see your W treating you well and loving you, they will begin to believe that the woman that presents herself as their mother is their mother.<p>I don't know that everything will ever be what it was, but I think it can become better. It is going to depend on your strength and your W's willingness to weather this storm and love you deeply. If she leaves you she will very likely lose everything.<p>I suspect that in her depressed state she feels that is what she should do, BUT it clearly is the wrong thing to do. <p>Again, just a gut level observation based on what you have said, but I think you need to take more control of the relationship. Yup, life is unfair, she cannot use AOL, but you can come here. If that is the only unfairness she ever has in her life she should give great thanks. She has perpetrated a far worse unfairness on you and your boys and did it with malice of forth thought for 27 years.<p>I think what you are hearing from me is a bit of tough love, although in reality I can imagine she is hurting and sees no way out. One thing I do know and I think you do as well, is that quiting is not the way out.<p>ULA, don't let these events get you down. They are a bump in the road of recovery. Hang in there get your W on her feet and keep doing what you can.<p>Finally, if the blackmail thing bothers you, talk to your son about it. I would suggest something like: " I didn't know you were having financial problems, you should have let me know." That kind of behavior is not going to help anyone.<p>Talk with your W, heck bring her here, we'll talk with her. But, mostly ULA, my untrained advice would be to hang in there, provide some guidance to your W about what you expect from her and how things will be, and give your sons time.<p>Your world was turned upside down. Your Boys world ceased to exist.<p>God Bless,<p>JL<p>PS: Your youngest son venting to you his anger is a very good thing. It is the beginning of the healing. There is a famous saying often quoted here: "The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference." Weisman (I believe).<p>I would definitely consider the venting to you over dinner a good thing. It means he trusts you, and it means he is struggling still with this whole thing.<p>[ March 11, 2002: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</p>

Dear ULA,<p>I seem to be on a real MBers kick lately, but I have one thing to say--POJA! (OK, if you believe I only have one thing to say you don't know me well enough AND I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.<p>Have you read the Harley's material on this site. If you are trying to implement Harley principles to restore your marriage you and your wife should be operating with a Policy of Joint Agreement. Neither one of you does anything (major) w/o the full and enthusiastic agreement of the other. According to the Harleys you even have to enthusiastically agree to divorce!<p>If you were using the POJA, you and your wife would be in agreement about internet usage for both of you. That doesn't have to mean that you both have the same priviliges, but it would probably mean that since another Harley principle is Radical Honesty. No secrets between spouses. So you would have her password and she would have yours.<p>I have to fess up. H and I don't live by POJA but we are walking our way closer and closer to it. That's how I know that I am going to have to leave this board soon. He doesn't like knowing that I am out here chatting about affair stuff. He would like to put as much of it behind us as possible. So, after we come back from Eastern Europe on our trip to adopt our two boys, I am going to have to leave and I am going to have to ask my friends here to help keep me honest and kick me off of here. Although giving up this site will be hard for me, I think that it is in the best interest of our marriage.<p>Try to see what you can negotiate with your wife about internet policy. You give something, she gives something, you stay at the table (figuratively) until you can both agree. The Harleys say it is difficult and akward in the beginning, but that soon both parties learn to give and take so that the needs of both are met.<p>MJ

Hmmm.... I don't think you have the choices to make, I think your sons have some choices to make.<p>They both seem to love and respect you, but they are not respecting your decision to forgive their mother and accept the past as being the past.<p>Do they understand how much you love her? Or have you let them dishonor her behind her back until they think it's okay? They are so young too. Perhaps one day they will understand, down the road when they get some more life experience.<p>I do not recall whether or not your wife has apologized to them for the pain she caused them? EVEN THO I believe she has more of a debt to you, but still just in order to make peace with her kids? After all, she betrayed YOU... Sounds like they had a decent upbringing to me? <p>Just was wondering whose idea was it not to tell them the truth until they got old enough to handle it anyway? Doesn't seem like they were old enough to handle it yet judging by their behavior!<p>p.s.Didn't sound to me like you "took away" AOL, just wanted to share passwords. Because of that, your wife gave up AOL altogether? Is she that stubborn? Does she show any interest in MB concepts, Q&A's or articles? Sharing those would be a great way to introduce her to MB?<p>[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

Catnip<p>I hope you'll all bear with me, this is a long one.<p>I&#8217;m not sure I understand your question. &#8220;Were they themselves little ones at the time this all happened?&#8221; It goes without saying that at the beginning of the A, the oldest son would have been only 2 ½ Y.O. and the youngest would not have been born until 6 years later. If you mean D-day, they were there with me 15 months ago so no they were not little ones.<p>No the wife was never abusive nor neglectful. I feel that she was a good mother to them through out their childhood. <p>Again, no the grandson is from the oldest son who is biologically mine. He has always buried his emotions (the apple doesn&#8217;t fall far from the tree does it?) and has blamed his inability to attain his goals on his parents, boss, or teachers. He married a woman who has the same traits and together they will not claim any ownership of their shortcomings or mistakes. Maybe it is nice to live that way but I doubt it. Consequently they are indeed getting a lot of mileage out of his mother's situation.<p>This emotional deficiency of his (and possibly some of mine) may be a result of the first A being hidden by his mother for so many years. The proverbial bump in the family carpet, that all of us tripped over. (Thanks MJ for reminding me of that. I had heard it from my therapist also.)
Yes, my youngest son is being cruel, but I feel that his anger is so great towards his mother that he is blinded to the fact that it is hurting me as well. As JL so aptly reminded me, anger is the first step in healing so perhaps there is a glimmer of hope there.
In response to "why is this affecting them so much", my rationalization is that they both loved their mother and had placed her on a pedestal. She was, after all, the one they went to in times of trouble and always received unconditional love in return. This was almost as painful for them as it was for me. <p>Just Learning<p>I hope I didn&#8217;t convey the message that she is now considering divorce because we certainly are not! W was simply stating in the past tense that she felt that it would have been easier for me to reattach with the boys if we were apart. I myself doubt that.

We did talk about on-line access last night and we agreed that I would continue to use the sites to which I am currently posting. She also apologized for her behavior towards me this weekend. I am willing to allow her to vent to me up to a point. As long as she is venting about how she feels about the boys to me, she is not burning bridges with them. It would not help our cause if they saw anger in her right now. <p>We also talked about how hard it is to forgive ourselves. I have been able to forgive her because I can label what she has done as huge mistakes, but human mistakes nonetheless, and she in turn has been able to forgive me for the apathy, which probably was partly responsible for her looking elsewhere for attention. Forgiving ourselves is much different. I seem to attach a label of stupidity on myself for being totally unaware for so many years and yet I don&#8217;t feel that I deserve that in some way. I also have a hard time admitting that I was so distant but I know I must have been. Right now she feels a lot of shame and guilt which complicate the process for her. <p>Mary Janes<p>I agree totally with you about POJA and I have read all of the Harley material on this site over and over. As I have told JL we have now reached an agreement on this issue. In deference to her feelings I can sympathize with her distaste for computer chat rooms, since she blames them for her downfall on some level. It was a catalyst in the reaction and the most recent and easiest tangible thing to blame. We both realize that it (the computer) was but a minor player in the second A and had no part in the first A.
I would hope that you will check in occasionally after your return although I am sure you will be very busy with the newly arrived boys. Your husband, like my wife, can just &#8220;stifle it&#8221; (Archie Bunker?) once in a while. If you cant see your way to visit once in a while, please be aware that your support will be sorely missed!<p>Been There Dun That<p>Yes, you are correct that they don&#8217;t respect my decision. In fact, my youngest said at dinner Friday that &#8220;they didn&#8217;t understand why I stayed with her, but it was easier for him that I did.&#8221; I am still trying to dissect this statement and perhaps I am reading too much into it. First I should have asked him who &#8220;they&#8221; were. If he was talking about his wife and him, it means something different than if he was including his brother and his wife. That would seem conspiratorial and lend credence to the feeling I have of them using this situation to their advantage, even if only subconsciously. Any thoughts?<p>Yes I have told both how much I love her and that I am convinced by her words and actions, that she loves me deeply too. <p>As far as withholding the truth, I know that my story is hard to comprehend, but they found out at the same time I found out and they heard it all during our initial D-day confrontation. This was recommended and as a matter of fact was a condition of my release by the hospital psychiatrist who was concerned for my well being. I was a suicidal mess at the time. <p>Thank you all for your input and I look forward to any more suggestions.<p>God Bless<p>Used Long Ago

ULA,<p>I keep thinking about your situation and a couple more things come to mind. I recall you explaining to me why you stayed with your W after such a colossal betrayal. You had loved her since you were in high school and you have loved her ever since.<p>I don't think you were so distant from your family that your W had to have an affair. After all your marriage was new and you had a very young son. I suspect it had to do with your W and her feelings/whatever at the time. Since she could get away with it she did. I also suspect that the fact that she never told you about your youngest son was simply her selfishness. <p>But, remember this,and it has been seen many times here, when someone is having an affair they pull away. They build barriers, and they definitely never let the one they are betraying into their deepest thoughts. Your behavior is very likely a response to years of your W protecting her affair. It is incomprehensible that it didn't put a hugh damper on her reponse to you and her interaction with you. She did not care what you did as long as you brought home the check. <p>Also consider that after all had she felt the OM was a better father and H she would very likely divorced and gone for him.As you have pointed out, she is no shrinking violet. So my thinking is yes you could have been a better H and father, we all could, BUT she never left you meaning that this was not an intolerable situation for her, in fact in many ways it was optimal for her. She had her cake and eat it too for 27 years. The second affair was simply her looking for a second helping.<p>My Mother used to tell us kids: "I will always love you, but I don't have to like you." Meaning that there was nothing we could do to end her love, but there was plenty we could do to end her friendship. This statement was made to use as teenagers and it applied to this day.<p>I think your older son may fall into this category for you and your W. You two will always love him, and want to be part of your Grandchilds life, but that doesn't mean you have to or will like him. It appears that apart from the discoveries of less than 2 years ago, he was not the man you had hoped he would be. <p>Interestingly, he is the one least effected by what has happened. He wasn't betrayed by his mother, you were. He didn't find out that his father isn't is father, but his Dad, his brother did. From all accounts your W was a good mother to him and you were a good father. <p>It appears to me that he is going to have to his own accomodations about all of this, but the issues are not the ones you, W, and youngest son are dealing with.<p>Your youngest seems to be struggling to reach an accomodation for this momentous discovery. His entire history, geneology, and view of himself has been destroyed. I can imagine he would have tremendous anger at having his identiy completely ripped from him. It is very clear that he identified himself with you. It will be awhile before he comes to realize that he is actually part of you, because you have left your imprint on him. It will be longer before he can address what your W did to him. But, his anger suggests that he is dealing with it and my bet is that he will come to an accomodation that will allow your W back into his life.<p>It is good that your W apologized to you for the weekend, but it is even better that she felt comfortable enough to vent to you. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I do hope others have more to offer ULA, but I do see hope for your situation.<p>God Bless,<p>JL<p>[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong><p>Your youngest seems to be struggling to reach an accomodation for this momentous discovery. His entire history, geneology, and view of himself has been destroyed. I can imagine he would have tremendous anger at having his identiy completely ripped from him. It is very clear that he identified himself with you. It will be awhile before he comes to realize that he is actually part of you, because you have left your imprint on him. It will be longer before he can address what your W did to him. But, his anger suggests that he is dealing with it and my bet is that he will come to an accomodation that will allow your W back into his life.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>JL, I think you did a near perfect job of explaining the pain of false paternity. I found out at age 35 that my Dad is not my bio-father. I have posted my story lots of time on this site, so I won't bore anyone with lots of repeated details, but I think you got it just right. The only difference in my situation is that my Dad knew my
mother was pregnant by OM and welcomed her back into the marriage willingly. But the feeling of having the earth pulled from under you has got to be about the same. You have to redefine all the relationships in your life. You are not who you thought you were. It is funny that ULA's younger son (about whom the secret was kept) is adjusting better than his older son. I would be pyssed if one of my sisters decided that my false paternity was a bigger issue for her than it was for me. <p>MJ

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Usedlongago:
<strong>Been There Dun That<p>Yes, you are correct that they don't respect my decision. In fact, my youngest said at dinner Friday that "they didn't understand why I stayed with her, but it was easier for him that I did." I am still trying to dissect this statement and perhaps I am reading too much into it. First I should have asked him who "they" were. If he was talking about his wife and him, it means something different than if he was including his brother and his wife. That would seem conspiratorial and lend credence to the feeling I have of them using this situation to their advantage, even if only subconsciously. Any thoughts?<p>Yes I have told both how much I love her and that I am convinced by her words and actions, that she loves me deeply too. <p>As far as withholding the truth, I know that my story is hard to comprehend, but they found out at the same time I found out and they heard it all during our initial D-day confrontation. This was recommended and as a matter of fact was a condition of my release by the hospital psychiatrist who was concerned for my well being. I was a suicidal mess at the time. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, ULA,
My guess is that your son was talking about "WE" being him and his brother. Perhaps he meant it was easier for you all as an intact family unit and the provisions they had growing up in that setting.<p>If your wife was a good mom to both of her kids then they need to get over it. I'm sorry.<p>I think it is horrible the way the kids were included in on the discovery. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'm so sorry that you have been through so much. However, it seems to only have made you stronger.<p>I don't think you need to choose between your wife and children at this point, but maybe keep the communication open and keep talking to them and keep telling them how much you love your wife. Maybe you and your wife need to be a more united front when you deal with the kids so they cannot manipulate you as much.<p>To me, if they would be willing to sacrifice their relationship with YOU because of their resentment of their mom, what does that say about their loyalty to you? Not much!<p>Put it to the test and see what they do?! It will be a risk tho and you have to be willing to stand by your convictions. If it were not for your wife, they would not even be alive, do they realize that?

Maybe your sons believe that they are "taking care of you" to hold the grudge against their mom. They need to know that their grudge against your wife is KILLING you even more than the affair that your marriage has totally recovered from! <p>Yes, it appears that your wife has some individual stuff to overcome (guilt & shame), but if you're not holding anything against her, why should she keep downing herself about the past? Ask her to share her thoughts with you on this...<p>Maybe your son's lack of forgiveness is killing her a little bit each day inside as well! Perhaps they need to know this...

HI ULA,<p>I just have a few things to say here.<p>Thing one - You need to make it clear to your sons that you LOVE your wife and that you take your marriage vows very seriously. Oh I can almost hear the answer they will have since they are so angry - Well she broke hers - . If they come out with that you need to tell them what I tell my now 21 year old son "I have no control over that, however I fully intend to keep mine !"<p>Thing two - You need to let them know that their disparaging remarks about their MOTHER a) causes you pain and b) is not appreciated. You have to show them that you still love and respect your wife even though she did this horrible hurtful thing.
(true story here - a few weeks ago Bozo and son went to do laundry, when they came home I started folding and sorting clothes. Son came in the room and made what IMHO was a rude comment about hubby. Son was *joking* but none the less I let him have it with both barrels I told him "That is your FATHER, he is also my HUSBAND and the man I am in love with. Don't ever say anything like that about him again. !" Son of course said "I was only joking, my friends and I say that about each other all the time". I told him I didn't care, that he would not disrespect him in that manner around me.) <p>Thing three - I know you and your wife have resolved the posting issue. But if it ever comes up again maybe you can point out that MB and Key Bridge are NOT chat rooms, they are moderated message boards. Anything you post here and anything others post to you stays here for anyone to read . Unlike a chatroom where once you turn off the computer everything is gone the next time you go in. <p>You seem to love your family and you are fighting for your marriage. I know your sons are hurting, but it is time to start being firm with them IMHO, not mean but firm. You are showing your sons what real love and marriage are all about, that it is more than an emotion it is also a commitment, and a marriage not something to be thrown out when one partner falls down. I hope that they will understand that one day. Keep it up ! <p>You might also remind them of what a good Mother your wife was to them as children, and that you only get one Mother in life. Not only are they dealing with the discovery of infidelity, they are having to see their Mom as less than perfect, as a real human being with flaws and faults just like the rest of us. That's a hard thing to deal with all by it's self for lots of folks, we all have to see it someday though. <p>Gee did I say *a few things* ? Sorry to run on so.