Catnip, You got your claws out again girl!!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Fullhouse seems to be as oblivious to Pop's pain as your husband is to yours. <hr></blockquote><p>I guess I'm sensitive to this remark because I can relate. I have gone back and read FH's posts a while ago and to me she seems to be genuinely sorry and repentive for what she has done. I don't think she is oblivious to pop's pain, only very discouraged and distraught because she wants to make her marriage work so badly and that is very hard to do when it feels like you are the only one who's trying. My H and I went through what she and pops are going through now. I never belittled my H's pain but questioned many times if saving our marriage was really what he wanted to do. I think the time factor is a big issue. It can be very frustrating for anyone, BS or WS, who feels that they are doing everything they can to make things better but are gaining no ground.<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> As far as ob/gyn....I went in Nov. 2000 for all the ugly std tests and told him names and everything! He knew! He had been caring for ow all along...another betrayal by men I trusted <hr></blockquote><p>Gem, Feeling that you have been betrayed by so many people can indeed feel like a kick in the face. However, in the case of your ob/gyn I hope you realize his Dr/patient confidentiality. He could no more disclose to you that he was the OWs Dr than he could disclose to her that he was testing you for stds. If he is a good Dr. whom you feel comfortable with I hope that you won't hold it against him

WANT IT BACK,
I CAN'T GO BACK. OB ASKED TOO MANY QUESTIONS HE ALREADY KNEW ANSWERS TO.<p>I GAVE HER NAME, SAID SHE WAS MARRIED, AND HE ASKED WHICH "LAST NAME" SHE WAS RELATED TO. I TOLD HIM WE WERE ALL FRIENDS...TOLD HIM I WONDERED IF SHE WAS REALLY PREGNANT...TOO MUCH. HE PROMPTED A LOT OF Q'S..LIKE PRIEST HE ALREADY KNEW THE FREAKIN ANSWERS!<p>ALSO REMEMBER HER ASKING AS MY "FRIEND" WHO OB/GYN WAS!!!<p>I NEVER WANT TO BE ON A TABLE WHERE SHE MAY HAVE BEEN AGAIN.<p>IT'S BEEN A ROUGH COUPLE OF DAYS.<p>DEBI<p>Sorry, forgot to remove capital letters before I typed...<p>[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</p>

Gem, Sorry, I did not know all the details. Of course if you don't feel comfortable with him there is no way you can go back. My concern was just that after having lost so many ob/gyns myself in the last 10 years (they always move to a bigger city just when I'm starting to feel comfortable with them) I know how hard it is to start over with a new one. I hope you can or have found another one that you like.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by want it back:
<strong>Catnip, You got your claws out again girl!!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>No! No, not really, at all! I apologize. My remarks about FH were uninformed opinions. I truly do not know enough about Fullhouse's true feelings and should never have made such a disrespectful judgment. My statement was not really well thought out and I kind of knew it at the time and was using it as an unfair example. I rarely do something like that, I never apologize, but on something like this, I really, really need to apologize. And I do.<p>You were right to call me on this one, WIB. I was a chowderhead. Fullhouse could post her thoughts on this site for clarification so as to avoid bum raps from chowderheads...<p>All you wonderful people have a great weekend...I'm outta here til Monday.<p>Love<p>Catnip =^^=

Now that is the Catnip I've heard everyone speak so highly of. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Hope your weekend is the best!!

Hello,
I must be one of the younger people here because I never heard the word chowderhead before I came here. So what is a chowderhead? Just thought I would ask. <p>Dawn

Want It Back & Catnip,<p>I have been wondering if I should reply to FH's post. I realize they have a wedding coming up, but more importantly I don't want to hurt people. Further, I don't know if it would do any good.<p>So what am I babbling about? I think Catnip's first comment about FH is dead on. If you two will undulge me and pardon me for using Catnip's post to discuss this. I would like your feed back and I don't really want to get FH/Pops into this until I understand things better. I suspect they won't see this post.<p>Here is what I see FH is not getting and what Pops isn't telling her.<p>She made a decision to have the affair. Pops had no say in this.<p>She made a decision to have unprotected sex. Pops had no say in this.<p>She made a decision to have the child and not abort. Pops had no say in this. <p>She made a decision not to put Grace up for adoption. Pops strongly wanted this.<p>She has so far NOT filed for child support from OM. Pops strongly wanted this.<p>Why did she do these things? Because her "feelings" told her to. Nevermind the damage that she did to the marriage and the family.<p>Now the issue is CS from OM. Her not seeking this will mean her other 4 children at home will have less, perhaps much less since she is also not working. Further, this decision means that Pops has to decide whether to divorce her soon. OR he will be stuck with CS whether the marriage makes it or not and even if FH were to pass away.<p>Further, Pops is a bit older and will be in late 60's before Grace is 18, meaning he may not be around to support ANY of the children, thus Grace puts added pressure on this.<p>FH's response is that she "tries to greet him at the door",she says she loves him, but she doesn't "feel that she wants OM in her life".<p>Pops in my opinion is not sure of many things, but the one things he is sure of is that FH's "feelings" come before him and yes even the children. Thus, he is having a hard time committing to the marriage, and by definition to Grace. I think he needs to decide about the marriage before he can let her into his heart.<p>Those are SOME of my thoughts on this. I am tempted to tell FH this,but I don't think she will understand a thing I just said.<p>Ladies what do you think? Is there a better way to do this? I would like to see Pops and FH happy and hopefully still married, but my perception of this is like Catnip posted, she doesn't see what she has done to Pops or the position she has put him in.<p>I need advice. Do I post this to her? Do I change what I post to make it more "sensible" to her? Do you think I am wrong?<p>Again I apologize for bursting in here but when what Catnip posted, I thought now would be a good time to solicit some advice.<p>Thanks for reading this.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

I don't think we were talking about things that happened during the A. And as for now FH does not want OM in her life which I thought everyone here would have applauded. Pops is certainly entitled to all the feelings he is having however, he is saying that he does want his marriage to work and he does want to "be in love " with FH again but I am not sure he feels this way at all. That is what is making thier situation so hard. He needs to get off the fence and decide what he wants one way or the other and comit to it.<p>I have lots more to say on this but not enough time right now.<p>[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: want it back ]</p>

OK, I'm back.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> She made a decision to have the affair. Pops had no say in this.<p>She made a decision to have unprotected sex. Pops had no say in this. <hr></blockquote><p>I don't think anyone is going to disagree with you here. ALL WSs, including me and FH, did not think much about anyone else at these times.<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>She made a decision to have the child and not abort. Pops had no say in this. <p>She made a decision not to put Grace up for adoption. Pops strongly wanted this. <hr></blockquote><p>
Here you are going to have to forgive me but I don't feel that you or any other man are qualified to make any judgements where this is concerned. Until you have carried a child under your heart for 9 months and have gone through labor to bring that child into the world then you can have no idea of what you are talking about. Kind of like me saying that it really doesn't hurt when you get kicked in the balls! I've read posts on here where men say they really don't bond with thier child until after it is born whereas a mother bonds with that child the minute she learns that she is pregnant. I looked into abortion. Researched it. I read about women who had no problems, I read about women who had pieces of thier baby falling out of them for days. This would have sent me to the state hospital , no doubt. I would have been no use to my H or my sons. We never discussed adoption. My H I think knew the type of person I am and knew that would also have sent me to the mental ward.
Point being, I don't think men in general are qaulified to give opinions on something they never have or never will experience in thier life. If FH had had an abortion or given Grace up for adoption without wanting to do it %100 how would that have affected her feelings towards Pops? How would that have affected the recovery of thier marriage? I don't think they would be much better off than they are now. I am the one who made the mistakes so why is it that my innocent child should have to be the one to pay the price. Hold me responsible, but to take away that childs life or give it an uncertain future with strangers hardly seems the right thing to do. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>She has so far NOT filed for child support from OM. Pops strongly wanted this <hr></blockquote><p>She is between a rock and a hard place here. She wants to go for CS because pops wants it yet she is terrified that having OM in thier lives will only cause problems. You need to look at the whole picture JL.<p>She has clearly expressed her desire to fix her marriage and is doing everything pops is asking of her right now. It is Pops who needs to decide what he wants now. JL, I do believe that you feel the WS carries the entire burden of fixing a marriage yet that would be in opposition to the Harley principals. Have you read Surviving an Affair? Maybe you should.<p>[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: want it back ]</p>

Me again. I just can't believe how much this is getting to me and I guess I need to know something. Does a WS have to do EVERYTHING that the BS asks and if so, where is the line drawn or is there no line and if the WS can not bring themselves to do some of the things that the BS is asking does that automatically mean that they don't love the BS with all thier heart and want thier marriage to work?. If Pops asks FH to stand in the town square so people can stone her for her adultery, or if he asks her to wear a scarlet letter or if he asks her to jump off a bridge and she can not bring herself to do those things does it mean she is not sorry for the things that she has done and that she doesn't love him? (I personally would have done all 3 of those things before I would have killed my own child or given it up for adoption). There are many many other ways to prove her love to him other than by just automatically complying to his every wish. I don't think anyone on this earth regardless of what they have done(except murder) needs to live under that kind tyranny. As I said, there are many other ways to prove your love and devotion to someone.<p>[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: want it back ]</p>

want it back,
I have to say in my case yes my h had to do everything I said I needed for me to stay. <p> This is the hardest thing I have ever had to deal with. I have been cheated on in past relationships and just walked away for allot less then this. I was a mess for quit a while. For me to truly believe my h wanted to fix the damage he had done. When I said jump my h pretty much had to say how high.<p> This is what it took until I felt that I could believe in him again. Its going on three yr. now things are better between us then they have ever been. I still have bad days when I feel the only way to put this behind me is to is to end this marriage. Then when I really think about it this has changed me forever so even without him I think this will be with me till I die. To believe in someone that has hurt you so badly is so very hard to do. The child support is a continuous reminder of how stupid my h was. Because of that its not going to be easy for him to slip in any way shape or form to his former self.
with love flowerseed

Hi flowerseed,
I can understand your feelings and I'm not going to ask about anything you may have made your H do. I guess I am having the biggest problem with JL, Pops and anyone else who feels as they do that they talk about women getting abortions or giving thier child up for adoption as if they were talking about a puppy, not another human being. I guess it's just one more reason to be extra thankful for the H that I have. He's going to get an extra big hug when he walks through the door this afternoon!!!!

I should explain what I mean by my h going back to his former self. He can be the biggest a hole that ever was if he chooses to be. For six months he did all he could do to make me hate him. Verbally and emotional abusive to this day I don't know how I took it. When he had finally got his wish and I was ready to get out was when he decided to not be that horrible person he
had been. He begged and pleaded for me to give it a second chance that now he had realized that his family was the most important thing to him and wanted things to be like they were before. This was also when he had told me that he had cheated and was the reason for his rotton behavoir. I actually felt sorry for him. It doesn't take very much to remind me of the nasty person he was and the disgust creeps up on me. I hated him for along time and only gave him a chance to prove he could change because of our child at that point there was no love that I felt for him only hate and pity. <p>He has a mother that has screwed around on his father up until about 3yrs ago when he finally divorced her. When I first meant my h he made excuses for his mom. A few yrs after our little girl was born he stopped making excuses for her. I guess maybe I had allot to do with that because I thought it was wrong and wouldnt listen to the crap. I think this has allot to do with the jeklel and hide personality. In some weird way I think he was trying punish me and take it out on me for his moms sick behavior. I think it made a big difference in my h thinking when he seen what damage can occur when things go on for as long as they had with his mother and father. His mom tried to commit suicide at the boyfriend house (shot herself twice in the chest) when she came to the realization that neither man wanted her and her games were not going to work anymore. She would always either be cheating on her boyfriends with her h or vise versa. Quit a screwed up family.<p>What I don't understand is right around the time he cheated on me was when he had caught his mom cheating on his father again. This last time of her getting caught was when his dad divorced her. He went and told his dad about it and he acted like this was so wrong.I think this was why I thought he would never do this to me. But yet he turned right around and did the same thing to me.H was always very good at saying what you wanted to hear. Now words mean nothing to me unless they are followed by actions that fit them.
them.<p>[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: flowerseed ]</p>

I know what you mean. I had a boyfriend who used to beat me. His father beat his mother and he absolutely hated his father for it yet he would turn around and do the same thing to me. Go figure??!!

Want It Back,<p>You have illucidated my issues beautifully. Thank YOU.<p>You see I don't think Pops issue is the decisions made so far. It is the decisions to be made in the future. While you think no man has any say in the issues of abortion and adoption, they do affect the H's life and at the age Pops is it is very likely for the rest of HIS life. The gestation period is 9 months, raising a child is a lifetime project.<p>But, here is where I think FH is wrong in her approach and I think you have been perhaps misreading things. You are coming from having to make decisions that could destroy your H and certainly your marriage as well as the life of your child.<p>Pops, has been for one reason or another cut out of all decisions. There are two major ones left. Does OM pay child support and does Pops remain married to FH?<p>FH needs very seriously to let Pops into the process on the first one, yet only SHE can file. Pops is trying to see if there is any place left for him in this marriage and a few kisses and hugs are not going to get this done.<p>Yet, when this subject is mentioned I fear she will respond as you did. You failed to note that I said Pops has no say in those decisions. A simple statement of fact, not an accusation, a condemnation, or even a statement of how it could/should or would be. My opinion and for that matter his don't count.<p>BUT, if any discussion of the future produces this defensive response, then I don't need to post to FH. For she won't hear/read my message any better. <p>If that is true then 7 childrens lifes about to be seriously damaged, because FH doesn't have a clue what Pops needs to hear from her. She doesn't see the damage she has done and no amount of guilt will fix it. <p>What will fix it is a iron will to address her H's issues, hear them, discuss them, and let him into the process. To date he has been shut out. Hence my list! They represent major events in Pops life, most of which he had absolutely no control. All performed by a human being that claims she loves him.<p>Now lets get down to facts. Pops age means that he may not live to see Grace reach 18, meaning that paying for her to be raised will be a life time sentence. He is at an age that to start over means now. Further, the state of California has as does most states "assumed paternity" laws. Meaning he has a finite time period to decide to declare he is not the father otherwise he is for the rest of his life no matter if the marriage lasts or not.<p>This brings me to the decisions. He had a vasectomy, why? Because he and FH decided that they didn't want anymore children, 6 being enough. Why he had the snipe and she didn't have her tubes tied I don't know. But, I can guess that their decision (and apparently in CA the W must agree for H to have vasectomy, I have heard), was economic, a desire for to have a life after children, age, and perhaps just plain fatigue from being a parent.<p>She has unilateraly decided to change all of those decisions and he hasn't had a word to say about it. His only option is to stay with a woman he doesn't trust and then be saddled with what she and OM did or divorce and breakup a family with 6 other childre (4 still at home). Given that FH has shown a "passive resistent" approach to everything she is very like to delay filing for CS until Pops is financially the father. He cannot trust that she won't.<p>My opinion is that she needs to discuss and decide with him about the role of OM, NOW, or Pops is stuck again.<p>Actually, I don't know why I have written this down. You have been through something similar to what FH is going through, and you have no idea what Pops is feeling or thinking. If you don't I doubt seriously that I could make FH see any better. <p>She will continue to go to the door to greet him when she hears him. She will say she loves him. She will cry and act like the victim of this heartless man, who is heartless because she ripped out. Then if he stays she will wonder at his resentments, if he leaves she won't have a clue why he left and that she could have saved this marriage.<p>But, to do it she must cease to be a victim, face what her H is feeling and thinking and figure out how to make his life a darn site better than it is now. In my opinion Grace is not the issue. If the marriage is rebuilt Pops will come to love her. Whether he stays or not CA will see to it that Pops or OM pays through the nose to support Grace. So she isn't the problem, BUT she does represent the problem, FH's failure to take into count Pops in many areas, including the role of OM in Grace's life.<p>He will have his work to do, if he stays of that there is no doubt, but to expect a man to work until he dies for another man's child conceived in lies and deceit is a lot to ask and she doesn't even seem to appreciate that is what she is asking. She hasn't addressed Pops issues of powerlessness, and hopeless yet. <p>I made a variety of comments to you when you first posted, because I feared you didn't see that there were some landmines laying in your path. Having the OM in your life is certainly is one. But, in Pops case he feels that the OM should be made to be part of this mess he created and she is invalidating those thoughts.<p>I realize you have no sympathy for men. Your posts consistantly show a lack of an ability to see it from the other side. But, I think your response and defensiveness is probably very representative of what FH will do if I try to post her. So I am not being funny when I thank you. There is no need to cause pain if there is no purpose or hope. Frankly, your response bothered and took more out of me than it probably should, but it is honest and is what I asked for. I can no more change FH's perspective than I could/can yours.<p>I think I have said enough. I won't respond to FH. Thank you for your input.<p>God Bless,<p>JL<p>[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</p>

Well... I can finally see where I have been going wrong. I have been assuming that FH and Pops situation was very similar to mine when in fact they couldn't be more different. Why? Because Pops and my H couldn't be more different. <p>When the decision had to be made about my D my H TOLD me that only I could make that decision and that he would stand by me no matter what. We also had planned on no more children, he also is not very young(40). When I made my decision we sat down and discussed it. I explained my reasons for making the decision I had. He hugged me and said "it's going to be a girl and she's going to look just like her mom". He was right on both counts.<p>As far as money goes my H would gladly PAY the OM to keep him out of our lives. Pops needs to be careful what he wishes for on that one. I feel sorry for anyone who is so dependant on money in their life to make them happy.<p>And all those "hugs, kisses and Ilove yous" that apparently don't mean a thing...those are the ONLY things my H has asked that I do and yes it makes him very happy.<p>I know you refuse to acknowledge that a man as wonderful as my H could exist and that he could possibly be happy in this situation. I don't know if it is a threat to do so or what. I am not delusional. I have known him since grade school. Yes I hurt him very badly, yes I have seen his pain and he has seen my regret.<p>Pops is very entitled to feel the way he does. I think he is so desperate for some kind of control right now that he doesn't care what it is as long as he's controlling it. That I think is going to get him into trouble.

Want It Back,<p>I will agree that you are indeed a lucky woman. I do disagree with you that wanting to have some say implies that he wants control. It does imply that perhaps he wants some say in how his life and the children's life will be. Don't forget Pops hasn't stated what he wants other than he feels the OM should be responsible.<p>If you take that as control, then why did you bring the OM into your life when clearly your H didn't want him there? <p>You truely don't understand a thing I have said do you? So sad. Well, at least everything is going great in your marriage. That is the good news.<p>Pops has many hard decisions and he has bee deeply hurt. However, my point was that from my position on the sidelines what FH is doing isn't going to do the job.<p>Your H is different I suppose, but I suspect less than you think. Beware of that WIB.<p>As I said, thank you for your input. You convinced me that I don't have the ability to help FH and Pops. I wish it was otherwise, but it is clear I haven't been able to get across to you the sublty of what I sense. It isn't just "Pops getting off of the fence." It is about FH helping him.<p>Apparently, you didn't need to help your H or perhaps he didn't want any. It really doesn't matter.<p>Thanks again.<p>JL

Can't you at least see where FH might be relunctant to let OM into their lives? Do you understand her hesitation at all? Does Pops? No.I know Pops wants OM to be responsible but I don't think he's so sure that he wants him in their lives. I don't think he is absolutely sure that he does want fH to go for CS. Is he really thinking of all the consequences of having the OM in their life which you have very graciously pointed out to me on another thread? You thought it was very dangerous to do that yet now simply because Pops is saying this is what he wants and FH is being relunctant You have suddenly changed your mind. Maybe it's not about control with Pops. Is it about control with you? Why are you not trying to convince Pops how dangerous that might be like you did to me?<p>Being in the same position as FH I fully understand her inability to give up her child. If she had been coerced into doing so I believe the marriage would have failed anyway. I understand also her relunctance to let OM into their lives. Knowing how Pops feels about him that also could very well end their marriage.
Other than those two things she is doing everything else Pops is asking of her. Trying do be loving, caring, showing genuine remorse but those things don't seem to matter one bit. It's not about the money. There are posts earlier on this thread from women who were single and raised their child just fine without CS, but fine let her go for CS. We'll see how wonderful things get after that.<p>[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: want it back ]<p>[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: want it back ]</p>

to all who have been posting on this thread,,,<p> first let me say that our daughters wedding yesterday was beautiful. after raining all night (fh was up worried all night) we awoke to broken skies with lots of clear blue and white cumulis clouds drifting overhead. we fnished preparations on the house and yard about 1 hour prior to the services and had about 130 quests. one of my best friends performed the ceremony and the nieghbors certainly will be talking after about 15 of the grooms best tatooed, 1/2 long hair and 1/2 shaved headed, and leather jacket wearing friends pulled up on their harley's. it was quite
will continue this in a minute am having computer troubles<p> pops

Pops & FH,
It sounds like the wedding went beautitfully. Glad to hear that everything went smooth. Hope you guys had a great time.<p>Dawn