On page 5 & 6 of Dr. Harleys "Answer to Visitation" a few of us got off on a tangent about how telling our mates what we need can be misconstrued as an order to do something "or else"<p>I made a mention that I had asked my WH to do some loving acts for me that he was unwilling to do, and because of the simple request it actually set us back so that I am getting less than I did before...meaning I use to get 1 "I love you" at night before bed, and now I get it about once every three days. (Im keeping track on my calendar!)<p>It's been discussed that the way men and women communicate is so different, that we have to learn how to talk so the other "hears' it the "right way."<p>I believe this. I believe that my H heard my request as an order. I subscribe to the belief that a request for change is an opportunity for the other to give a gift toward the relationship. It wasnt meant as an order, merely an opportunity for him to show me his concern for me and his willingness to make me happy, even if it wasnt something that he would "normally" do for me. My H chose to see it as "too much work."<p>Its good that I know this. It tells me something about his heart condition. At least right now.<p>Before we went into Plan B in Oct. I had asked him to write "THE letter" of "its over" to the OW, as Dr. Harley suggests. He refused, giving me a lame excuse that it would cause her to cut the ties between him and OC.<p>When I left I told him it was important to me that she knew unconditionally that it was over between them, and that if he didnt love me enough to do that, I wouldnt be coming home.<p>When he wanted me to come home, he presented me with the letter to her to mail for him. I never mailed it. <p>Several weeks went by and he asked me if I mailed the letter. I said "no," He asked why, and I said, by the time I realized he was serious enough to tell her in writing their relationship was over, that was good enough for me, it told me where his heart was, and that was the important thing.<p>The same is with this situation. I think maybe it was more important for me to know he was WILLING to these things even though he thought it was ridiculos. His refusal of what I feel is important tells me something about how he is feeling toward me. <p>That doesnt mean Im giving up just yet. JUSTLEARNING has suggested a new approach. Sure I'll try asking HIM to come up with ideas to show me that he loves me. After working so hard, for so long, Im not willing to throw in the towel at this point with out examining all my options.<p>I gave him every opportunity to leave me over the past year. I have opened the door, and said "if you wanna be with her, go!" I have asked a dozen times "Are you sure you wanna be here? You're a grown man, you get to do what you want, You need to be happy, if your happiness is with her, go!" He's always said he didnt want to go.<p>He said he had the A for several reasons. Our businesses were struggling and that was a lot of pressure. Our disabled son is getting sicker and that was a lot of pressure. Our teenage daughter was getting rebellious and that was a lot of pressure. He had big responsibilities in some volunteer organizations which added more pressure and lessened time to relax and unwind. He didnt feel I was supportive enough, and yes, there was the communication problem between us. As I was struggling to deal w/ the same things as him, I didnt handle it well, and a distance came between us. I would say there was more "snapping" between us, but I didnt think it was anything too serious, however he did. And he said he found someone who asked nothing of him but his love, a place where he could escape reality for a while and he felt happy there.<p>I always accepted him unconditionally, but unfortunately I cannot do that anymore, there are condition and Im sure he sees this as added burdens. I have needs as he does, and our need are different. I told him I thought I was making it easier for him by taking the guess-work out of it. WHen I ask him what he needs or wants from me, he usually says "I dont know", or he asks me to "lighten-up" I try to be "lighter". but its hard when your heart is heavy with sadness, and emptiness. I said "when you can give me what I want even if it feels unnatural at first, you'll see how much happier I'll be, and that will be reflected back to you, and you'll feel alot happier too, and things will get easier and "lighter".<p>I want this boy speak/ girl speak to go both ways. I dont want to learn his language with out him learning mine. Im not rowing this boat all by myself, but so much of the repair work is done by the hurt one isnt it? <p>I told H if we were dating and he treated me like this I would be gone by now. <p>I am motivated to keep trying for several reasons: *He is a great guy in many other areas of his life. *He was a respectable and decent person before A. *We've been together 26 yrs, married 24 and have solved many other serious problems prior to this...THIS being the worst. *I always felt infidelity was the lowest thing on the list of bad things he might do....it is very out of character for him, and I dont believe he will do it again if he is convinced he wants to stay married to me (thats what Im trying to figure out...whats really in his heart-vs-what he SAYS he wants. I dont think he knows his own mind yet.) *We own 3 businesses together, *we have a disabled son that is too big for me to physically care for alone, I dont want him to live w/ my H and me have to be a part-time mom. *I have strong religious feeling @ divorce. The scriptires say (Malachi 2:16) God hates a divorcing. But also that God understands the pain caused on account of adultery and allows the faithful mate to break the marriage contract under this circumstance. (Matthew 3:9) I want to keep my marriage together if I can. <p>When I first found out, a girlfriend cautioned me: "It will be hard with him, and it will be hard without him, first you should try to save your marriage." Good advice. Isnt that why we're all here? We're all doing what we can to save our marriages, for what ever reason.<p>I gave up pride along time ago. Trying new ways of communicating isn't the end of the world after all the "humiliation" Ive been through. Ill try whatever... Yet I imagine one day I'll reach the end of the road, where everything that could have been done, has been. And if on that day, I still feel sad, hurt, lonely, empty etc... I guess thats the day I'll walk.

HOH,
I don't have any advice but I do think you right. My H says that I tend demand things but I don't see it that way. I think I am just requesting. So, I want to try a different approach.<p>
Dawn

HOH,<p>Did you see the bookmark for that book about the differences between men and women speak??? If so what did you think about it? <p>I would also like to tell you that I think that there is also a difference between BS and WS speak. Guilt goes a long way toward filtering things in very odd ways.<p>I don't know if you and your H have deep discussions, but if you do I would like to suggest that you not talk about what you want or need. See if you can get him to articulate what he sees in the past, the present and the future with regard to HIM. Just HIM not you. Why? <p>I think you can get him to start to see things differently if he really looks at himself. Is he proud of himself? what is he proud of? What would he change about himself? Is he happy? What would it take for him to be happy?<p>Do you see what I mean? If you can get him to talk and see "himself", then you can find the common ground to make the messages you want him to understand relavent to his view. <p>I know this is an awful amount of work for the person so seriously hurt here, but getting him talking will I think help.<p>One thing though, don't become his shrink. You cannot help him in many ways, a real professional might be needed for that. You can find out ways to reach him though.<p>I sure wish I could offer you something that I KNEW would work. All I can do is throw out ideas.<p>HOH, I look at as all is not lost. Why? He didn't leave, while he hasn't done much to help you, he hasn't left. In man speak that means he would prefer to be with you and he is telling you this via his actions. The real issue will come up soon. Do you want to be with him??? <p>You both will need to discuss this as well. POJA even a separation or divorce HOH. It will prove to be illuminating.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Dear HOH,<p>Your H has a twin brother who lives with me ...
When you described the stresses in your life that led your H to choose an affair, it sounded like a tape recording of so many conversations I have had with my own H.<p>My marriage is in recovery but after many, rocky years that prolonged the pain because we did not know how to communicate and how to meet each other's needs. But, when we both learned the basics, you would not believe how easy the road became.<p>You cannot cure the marriage on your own, but be assured of one things, as JL said, the fact that your H is with YOU speaks volumes. What put my marriage back on track was a simple thing but an important thing to my H. <p>I completely agree with JL again -- guilt is a powerful emotion. Guilt was being laid on my H from the pain he had caused me, more guilt was being thrown his way by the OW who was holding the innocent OC over his head and he was trying to please everyone but not pleasing anyone. I would try to talk to him about the affair and each time the conversation would begin very reasonably and end up in accusations, recriminations and arguing. <p>Over time my H learned that whenever we tried to talk about the OW, we would end up arguing, so he stopped wanting to talk about her at all. Unfortunately, all I wanted to do was talk about her and that led to a different kind of conflict.<p>I started to read books on relationships, books on faith, and started to piece together the complex feelings I was having to form a picture of what was wrong with my marriage. I didn't like what I found.<p>I found that I was trying to have open and honest conversations, but because I had so much anger still inside me over the affair and the OC, I turned every conversation into an interrogation and it was a constant reminder of the guilt. My H says that he was "tried over and over again for the same crime -- even a criminal is not treated that way". And, he was right.<p>That was when I forgave him. Truly forgave him -- gave up my right to continue hurting him because he hurt me. I focused on what was wrong with US. I no longer asked him why he had done this or that with the OW. I asked him what he was feeling at the time about us, in general, and me, in particular. I asked him how he felt about himself and his life. I realized that the OW was the outward expression of problems we were having -- she was not the main problem.<p>And then, I picked one night when we were both relaxed to go through the whole affair and ask all the questions that I wanted to ask. The proviso for this night was that I would listen without anger. No matter what he said, or how bad it hurt, I would not react.<p>I thought that would be the hardest night of my life. But actually, when I listened with my head and not my heart, so many things made sense. I started to understand that my H is human, he made a terrible mistake and he deserved a second chance.<p>But, I also decided at that moment that I was hurting myself more by constantly going over the A. It happened, it was over, and I needed to let us both move forward.<p>HOH, it is not easy to give up the role of victim. It is so comforting to be the wronged person -- to be owed something from your spouse. So, it was very hard to leave the comfort of that role, take responsibility for the part I played in my H's fall from grace, and face him as a completely equal partner ready to do the work to make the marriage viable again.<p>I was scared. And I told him that I was giving him my heart again, but if he screwed it up this time, there would be no second chance. We worked on communication. We learned to speak without accusations and anger. And we have survived.<p>There will be days when a reminder makes you sad. But there can also be wonderful days ahead where you discover that you are a stronger being than you ever thought possible. Marriagebuilders is about making it work. I found that not only does my marriage work again, but my H and I have opened up new levels of communication that we never thought were possible.<p>An affair should not replace marriage counselling [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] but if God sent you lemons, make lemonade!<p>I am sorry if I rambled. I hope I made some sense and that you can use some of my experience to either help you along the way or give you more hope.<p>God bless you and see you through this,
love, heavenly

OK, i'm sneaking out of lurking because this hit home.<p>
HOH,
I only have a couple of seconds to tell you what worked for me.<p>Number One. Heavenly is sooooo right. Giving up the victim role and attitude is the first step to your own personal recovery.<p>Your hubby has to figure out how to recover from his guilt on his own or with the help of a professional.<p>Number Two. I know for me personally, my husband didn't start showing true affection and dedication from his heart and not his lips until I stopped expecting and asking for it. It was like a miracle. So very soon after I gave up and said to myself: this is it I'm throwing in the towel, I'm not going to worry about him making me happy, I'm making myself happy.... He started little by little pouring out the affection and love. I think he sensed and was attracted to my inner strength developing.<p>Concentrate on you is the best advice I can give anyone who finds themselves "needing" anything from a man. Remember... you momma used to say men are the icing on your cake of life. Don't let him become the cake. It took me a long time and a rough path to figure it out... but I believe it now.<p>Good luck..I'll be lurking to hear your progress.<p>Z. <p>(still lurking: miss you all)

Ive only a min. to respond to all your wonderful answers. Thanks eveyone. I've printed out all your suggestions, and will review them and make a battle plan. For all the venting I did my heart is really in the right place to try to reach his heart. I know it isnt all about me, which is what most people who dont know about MB think. When something like this goes wrong its always a two way St. Even if the innocent ones biggest crime was that they didnt recognize their mates unhappiness.<p>We're going away tomorrow for the weekend, and maybe in a relaxed atmosphere we'll be able to have some fun, and a nice talk.<p>Ps. JUSTLEARNING: you asked if I read the "bookmark". Im kinda computer illerate. What is that and how do I get to it?

HOH,<p>If you go to the last page (6 I think) of Gemini's post about Dr. Harley's response, you will see a post by MaryJane. In that post there is a red url address line. Put your cursor on it and click it and it will take you to the amazon.com site and the review of that book.<p>Those url addresses are call "bookmarks". You can create your own by simply typing paste in the address of any post or site here stuff) copy it and past it in after the = sign. You can then direct people to read whatever you want them to read.<p>You will note that simply putting the full adress there in a bracket that it tried to make my www.whatever a book mark as well.<p>How is that for a post on communications? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Hope this helps.<p>God Bless,<p>JL<p>[ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</p>

Thanks! Do I get some sort of certificate I can put on my resume once I get it figured out?!! Have a nice weekend. We'll talk on Monday.