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#80978 04/21/04 10:37 PM
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This thread was removed, but does have good information in it. It has been edited to remove anything that didn't pertain to marriage building (and I removed signature lines to be more brief).
Murphy

baddawg1976
Junior Member
Member # 34397

posted April 11, 2004 12:42 PM
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My wife and I have been married for 5 years and get along great, we're the best of friends and do everything together, this part of our marriage is perfect. The problem is when we were married, we were the same religion and sorta both fell away for a while, went to church off and on.

Then just when things seemed to be getting back to normal, (I say getting back to normal because her family is (Was) very controlling, physically, mentally and verbally abusive( but we solved that problem.

Well my wife took an interest in Witchcraft and tells me she's been trying to talk to spirits and it freaked me out, because, all religions aside I don't want to be around anything like this and surely do not want my kids around this kind of behavior. She says she won't give it up and that I should respect her wishes, I've tried but this subject is so opposing to my beliefs I find myself laying down ultimatums. I'm mostly worried about our kids and what they become, she say's it doesn't matter what the're tought that they will make their own decisions when it comes to religion, but I think it does.

Our only arguments are what to teach our kids. As of now we have none. But I'm looking to the future and WORRIED, it's starting to get a little rough. Any help Thanks
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hurting Promise Keeper
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posted April 12, 2004 06:59 AM
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It would be helpful if you could provide more detailed explanations of your religious beliefs. Were you professing Christians with a belief in the Bible? Were you in agreement on where each other was spiritually?

EDITED
Thanks!
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baddawg1976
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posted April 12, 2004 01:22 PM
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Yes it's my wife and we both were deep in our religion when we got married and STRONGLY opposed the witchcraft and anything to do with it.

Yes, Bible our whole lives, we knew each other growing up. Everything was perfect for 2 years then she started visiting her grandmother and seemed to be fascinated with magic, she calls it candle magic and seeing the other side.

I'm just opposed to it. She doesn't want anything to do with our church at all, not even friends that we got along with good she don't seem to want to see their faces at all. Well she told me that we can raise our kids not knowing about this until their 18 until yesterday she changed her mind and said she would tell them. Which if you ask me I believe your kids grow up to be what you are, not all the time but most.

I asked her, has she ever seen anything come true or any spirits or any proof and she laughed and said no.

Also her parents were killed in a car accident when she was 3 and her uncle raised her and her siblings very abusive mentaly, physically, and verbally, I mean he was Hitler himself.

Even though I'm not as strong in my faith as I used to be I still hold core beliefs and values.
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hurting Promise Keeper
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posted April 12, 2004 02:00 PM
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Thanks for the additional information EDITED

Please keep me informed as to your progress. Don't remove your love from her. EDITED You can do it and God bless!
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baddawg1976
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posted April 12, 2004 07:04 PM
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Well she's actually left for a few days to stay with her grandmother. She brought her some fish eyes.
She's actually thinking of leaving because she say's there are things she would do on her own that she does not do around me like talk to spirits and do seonces ( I guess thats how you spell it)
I don't know what to do yet but my mind is going crazy. On one hand I love her and on the other I don't because of what she's become.
She says that all people change and I understand that life is all about changes but not those kind of changes.
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hurting Promise Keeper
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posted April 19, 2004 08:19 AM
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Thought I would check in with you and see how things are going. EDITED God bless!
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*Takola*
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posted April 19, 2004 01:39 PM
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You cannot dictate your W's beliefs to her. So, no matter what stance you take on her religion, you should not be delivering ultimatums.

I think a pertinent question is - What is she seeking from this, or what does she derive from her new practices, that she is not getting from the faith you shared?

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met 6-2-99, engaged 6-2-00, married 6-2-01, H moves out 3-26-02, H moves home 5-27-02, Currently Recovering

takola_mb@hotmail.com

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cerri
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posted April 19, 2004 02:09 PM
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Baddawg -

I am a priestess in the Wiccan religion. I am a second degree initiate working toward my third degree which is the highest level one can attain in terms of degree - although learning and walking a spiritual path are not ever completed.

I am also a professional marriage coach (www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com). I trained with Bill Harley and know both him and Joyce fairly well (we live not to far apart and get together for dinner a couple times a year). I did some training with Michelle Weiner Davis a year ago as well. I specialize in marriages that are in crisis and particularly in infidelity.

I'm sorry to hear that your marriage is in turmoil over something like religion - something that should bring you closer rather than tear you apart. Let me ask you a couple of things and let's see if there is more to this than meets the eye.

First - you say that she is interested in Witchcraft. Although in today's world that is usually synonomous with Wicca they are not one and the same thing, so we should clarify that.

Second - is she in a group, getting info from an individual, simply reading books, what exactly is she doing that is worrying you - besides talking about conversing with spirits?

Third - is it possible that there is another man involved in this sudden interest? - we can't say for sure yet about it being a religion since we haven't defined if it is indeed Wicca (which is a religion ) or Witchcraft - (which is not). Often times a major shift such as this comes about because of an infatuation (EA) or even PA with someone who professes a certain belief.

Fourth - how much do either of you know about two important facets of Harley's work that you are going to need to navigate through this - First would be POJA - no one goes to any church until you are BOTH thrilled with it - so, interest or no, if it's not working for you then it doesn't happen. And second - Respectful persuasion - you're going to get much farther with her if you can remain respectful and courteous about this entire subject than if you lose your cool. She's going to dig her heels in and get even more adamant about pursuing this if you become angry and demanding - and disrespectful in the process.


Wicca has as its only rule the ethical injunction to "Harm none." That being the case, any reputable group would be hesitant to take her as a student if it was going to disrupt her home and her marriage. I certainly would not. We also believe that this path is not for everyone - we do not under any circumstances attempt to make 'converts' or to convince others that they should join or participate. If any of that is going on, I would also be very suspicious. Being a religion of free thinkers and independence oriented individuals the pagan community attracts its share of oddballs - the ones that are shunned or avoided by the legitimate circles, groups, and covens. It may be that your wife has met up with someone like that.

In any event - like in most other things marriage it's going to boil down to POJA - unless it works for both of you it doesn't happen. How we get from here to there is where you need the strategy. Fill me in on the things I asked above and let's see if I can help you through this.

C

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usual suspects
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posted April 19, 2004 05:22 PM
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Dear Baddawg: I wanted to add to Promise Keepers' thought process. Edited Quote the Bible, sing hymms, go to church and talk with God daily. Peace
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cerri
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posted April 19, 2004 06:19 PM
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EDITED
The issue is that baddawg's wife is doing something that he finds objectionable and offensive. Regardless of whether that 'something' is religion, hobby, entertainment or even an affair - under the POJA unless both spouses are on board with whatever one of them wants to do it doesn't happen. Baddawg's wife is in violation of the POJA - how he approaches that subject will determine to a great extent what happens in his marriage.

If she were still well connected to her church and her faith family the concept of her H as the head of the house might work well - but given that she is not, pushing that idea on her at this point in time is most likely going to move her further from her husband and her former church home. But if we use respectful persuasion and good communication skills there is a good chance we can entice her back.

Much like the old saying - you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. This is a woman who needs to feel both safe and respected - then we can talk about practices that make her hubby turn pale and how those are probably not in the best interests of her marriage - and her own future.

C

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Just J
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posted April 19, 2004 09:07 PM
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Baddawg --

Penny/Cerri rarely posts here anymore, but obviously this is a subject that she has more expertise in than almost anyone else on this board. And as she mentioned, she's the ONLY person certified in the Harleys' methodology on this entire board. I really hope you'll consider her thoughts in that light.

For myself, I would suggest that if you dig in your heels on this subject, she will walk away from you just because of how you're treating her. Your wife, no matter what's going on with her, deserves your compassion and kindness. If what she's doing is HURTING or SCARING you, say so.

"I am frightened by your communications with spirits."

"I am hurt by your involvement in this religion."

And then be quiet and let it sink in. Spend your own time in prayer, meditation, and the occasional solid run around the block. Quiet and stillness is very, very difficult, and that's what you need right now.

[ April 19, 2004, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: Just J ]

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Just J -- justj_mb@yahoo.com

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cerri
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posted April 19, 2004 09:23 PM
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Did you know that music, reading, medicine, and mathematics were once occult (literally translated as 'hidden') arts that were passed on only to students who reached an initiatory level of studies? Where we would be today if we condemned those things as "abominations in God's eyes"?

Which is entirely off the topic of baddawg's wife and what to do about that situation. I am Wiccan. I am devoted to my religion and to my spiritual quest - but I will tell you that if she is pursuing the very same path in a way that is harmful to your marriage then she needs to stop. This is not about evil or abominations - as much as fear and predjudice might want one to suppose -it's about violating a basic tenet of marriage. If it hurts your spouse you don't do it. Period.

How we get her to stop is the question at hand. Tossing her out of the house and declaiming her as in a cohort of some evil presence might feel very powerful and validating - it won't save a marriage. And it will violate everything that MB stands for - which is respect, courtesy, and honoring the dignity of each human being.

Attributes that I think you will find as the model to live by in your own religion - as well as most others around the world.

C

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hurting Promise Keeper
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posted April 20, 2004 07:26 AM
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Cerri - In this case I respectfully disagree.EDITED
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*Takola*
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posted April 20, 2004 09:56 AM
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Religious debates aside, to try to force one's spouse to do anything they do not want to do is abuse - pure and simple.

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takola_mb@hotmail.com

cerri
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posted April 20, 2004 10:02 AM
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baddawg did not initiate this thread to have a discussion of the merits of one religion over another. He asked what to do regarding a situation with his wife. Since he posted this question on the Marriage Builders board (and not on a sectarian religious board) I would suggest that we adhere to the concepts, philosphies and policies set out by the founder/owner of this forum and that we address his question. To do otherwise is in violation of the policies set out by MB for participation - not to mention that it's rude.

Here are a couple of things from the main site:

First is a discussion of Disrespectful Judgments and how they destroy marriage (emphasis added):

When requests don't get you what you want, and demands don't work either, our instincts and habits often provide us with another stupid and abusive strategy -- disrespectful judgments. Without a doubt, demands are abusive, but disrespectful judgments often make demands seem merciful in comparison.

In the final analysis, disrespectful judgments represent an effort to force our spouses to give us what we want in marriage, but it's often cleverly disguised. Instead of making an outright demand, we present our problem as if it were really our spouse's personal shortcoming. We try to "straighten out" our spouse in an effort to get our way.

At the time we rationalize our disrespect by convincing ourselves that we're doing our spouses a big favor, to lift them from the darkness of their confusion into the light of our superior perspective. If they would only follow our advice, we tell ourselves, they could avoid many of life's pitfalls-and we would also get what we want.

A disrespectful judgment occurs whenever one spouse tries to impose a system of values and beliefs on the other. When a husband tries to force his point of view on his wife, he's just asking for trouble. When a wife assumes that her own views are right and her husband is woefully misguided -- and tells him so -- she enters a minefield.

In most cases, a disrespectful judgment is simply a sophisticated way of getting what one spouse wants from the other. But even when there are the purest motives, it's still a stupid and abusive strategy. It's stupid because it doesn't work, and it's abusive because it causes unhappiness. If we think we have the right -- even the responsibility -- to impose our view on our spouses, our efforts will almost invariably be interpreted as personally threatening, arrogant, rude, and incredibly disrespectful. That's when we make sizable withdrawals from the Love Bank.

Second are a couple of Q/A columns that are of a very similar situation, and how Dr. Harley suggests handling the problem (again - emphasis added):

Dear Dr. Harley,
My wife is spending an increasing amount of time meeting with people who have developed a passion for "Celestine Prophecy" (Redfield's best-selling book) and similar "new-age" musings. She has embraced "consciousness raising" therapies where she reads, experiences and hears about spirituality ideas that she does not, nor cannot, properly analyze. When I question the nature of her beliefs, deceptive information, and psuedoscience, she says that one can't analyze feelings, and what she's doing feels "right".

Bit by bit, my wife moved into her present state over a period of several years. But it's really become intensive this past year. After 9 years of what I though was a happy marriage, she now says she feels "disconnected" from me and is not able to commit to our marriage in the way she did when she felt connected. She has also withdrawn from me physically.

She decided to move into an apartment last year for a three-month period. Although she's now back home, she says that she has a "knowing" that her destiny in life is to do new-age type "healing" work with others, which she envisions as requiring travel to other countries. Now, she goes off to "do her work" and local "meetings" with like-minded souls for several hours, several times a week, plus one or two week-end sessions of 3 to 6 hours each. Additionally, she frequently spends an inordinate amount of time on the phone speaking in fascination about "harmonizations", "energies", "vibration levels", "sychronicities", etc. It seems like she is addicted; she is obsessed with this activity.

She does much of her "energy work" in the company of a like-minded man. I've told her that I'm uncomfortable with her being in his presence so often; she assures me that nothing is going on between them. I resent that she is spending so much time with him, which is certainly promoting emotional intimacy, but very little time working with me to resolve our marriage problems.

We have children 18, 16, and 8 and she says she doesn't want to end our marriage. But, she cannot commit to our marriage as a priority to "finding herself." She is a loving mother, and I cannot understand how our once-romantic relationship has fallen into such disrepair.

For the sake of our kids and our marriage, what constructive action do you suggest that I take?

D.R.

~~~~~~~~~~

Dear D.R.,
Over the past 10 years, you and your wife have drifted into incompatibility. Her conversion to new age philosophy may be a symptom of how far you've drifted apart, but it's not necessarily the cause. If I were to talk to your wife about her transformation, she would probably explain how she tried to stay emotionally connected to you, and that her efforts were rebuffed. She would probably complain about Love Busters such as angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments and selfish demands. She would also tell me how much she needs someone to talk to, but talking to you had become an exercise in futility and frustration.

So she did what she had to do, she withdrew from you, and found others that would meet her emotional needs. These people who met her needs happened to believe in new age philosophy, but it could have been almost anything. One of them, the man you refer to in your letter, probably did more than the rest to meet her emotional needs, so it's likely that she has fallen in love with him. As a result of her relationship with those who met her needs, she has adopted their system of beliefs.

As long as her emotional needs are being met by these friends, it will be impossible for you to dissuade her of her beliefs. Notice how she tells you that it "feels right." What feels right is that her emotional needs that had not been met by you are now being met by her friends -- by her male friend in particular. Who can argue with that?

I don't think your wife's beliefs are at the core of the problem. What is at the core is that she has been making decisions that ignores your feelings. Her decision to stop making love to you is one of many designed to cut you out of her life. I imagine that in her three months away from you, she missed her children and perhaps the economic comforts that your home provides. It's also possible that her romantic relationship with her religious advisor didn't go as well as she had hoped. So she moved back in with you, remaining in the emotional state of withdrawal, trying to live in the same house with you without having an emotional connection with you.

If I am right about your wife's religious transformation, challenging her beliefs will prove futile. It wasn't the new age philosophy that she found so compelling -- it was the care shown by friends meeting her emotional needs that won her over. If you are to win her back to you, you will need to learn what they did for her that she found so irresistible. You must learn to meet those emotional needs, particularly her need for safe and enjoyable conversation.

You won't be able to meet her needs at first, while she is in withdrawal. First, you must prove to her that you are a safe and pleasant person to be around. Then she will slowly come out of her defensive shell and give you opportunities to re-connect with her.

I know you have tried to be tolerant of her beliefs, but as her decisions have become increasing hard on you, you may be showing her disrespect when you don't intend to. Be very careful that you focus attention on how her decisions affect you, rather than on the truth of the belief behind the decision.

Remember, she is in the state of withdrawal because something you've done has convinced her that you are too dangerous to get close to. Withdrawal is a defensive strategy to guard against Love Busters angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments and selfish demands. So what are the Love Busters that she is guarding against? Identify them and try to protect her from them.

You should also identify and learn to meet her most important emotional needs. Ask your wife if she would be willing to read my book, His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-proof Marriage, with you. By reading that book together, she may tell you which of her emotional needs have been unmet in her relationship with you.

If you learn to meet her emotional needs and overcome Love Busters, it will be much easier for her to agree to take your feelings into account whenever she makes a decision. Your wife is probably very intelligent. If you use that intelligence for each other's welfare, your wife will become reconnected to you once again. You and she will be soul-mates.

(D.R.'s response)


Dear Dr. Harley,
Thank you for your considerate reply to my e-mail. The language she uses is like a fingernail-scrape on a blackboard to me: "biospiritual energy", "detailed analysis of the chakra system", blah, blah, blah.... It is a challenge for me to bite my tongue on hearing this sort of stuff, or at least refrain from making "disrespectful judgments".

But, I agree with your assessment of the dynamics of our relationship. Beliefs are not the real issue here. I believe that trying to discuss our differences at that level only gets in the way of addressing the real cause of our turmoil -- our mutual emotional needs not being met.

What you are suggesting is a major paradigm shift for both of us, as our marriage counseling to date has been along the lines of improving communication -- each of us learning the different "languages" we speak, and our ability to argue more effectively. But this has not proven to be a productive approach in the emotionally bankrupt climate in which we are living.

I met with my wife over lunch today and we discussed taking the approach outlined in your book, His Needs, Her Needs. The next step will be for us to fill out the questionnaires (Emotional Needs Questionnaire, Love Busters Questionnaire). I am hopeful that we are -- at last -- on a productive track to resolving this painful situation.

My wife's primary concern, as you might imagine, is making decisions that take my feelings into account (the Policy of Joint Agreement). I will read your newest book, Give & Take, so I can learn to make decisions with her feelings in mind, and hope she does the same for me.

I'm certainly looking forward to the prospect of us once again becoming "soul-mates"!

D.R.

To save space, although I'm happy to cut and paste them, here is a link to another similar letter

And here is one more

All in the Q/A section How to Resolve Conflicts portion - "Conflicts of Faith."

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#80979 04/22/04 07:24 AM
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I don't believe in sensorship. I also don't appreciate the fact that an edited version of this topic has been reposted. Yesterday Nokomis posted that the thread was being removed entirely. So be it, because that was fair to everyone involved. Now, a sanitized version of this thread has been reposted here, editing out much of my RELEVENT comments and some comments of others that took the time, and concern, to post. Either repost the thread in it's entirety or remove it all together, in my opinion. I understand this is not a Christian site. I also was under the impression that relevent, informed insights could be posted here, Christian or non-Christian. The information I originally posted directly addressed Baddawg's inquiry titled "Problems With Religion". My comments were concise, well thought out, and truthful. I guess where I crossed the line was when I dared to expose cerri's occult involvement in Wicca. Baddawg's W was also involved in the occult and he simply stated his concern about her conduct and whether or not he should allow this influence into his house. I took the firm stand, and I still do, that occult involvement should NOT be POJAed. You can agree or disagree but to sensor my comments and the reasons I commented the way I did was uncalled for.

Again, in the interest of fairness I would suggest that the thread be returned in it's entirety or else completely deleted, like it was yesterday.

Murphy, I will be sending you a personal e-mail shortly.

#80980 04/22/04 07:44 AM
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Feel free to email me.

Reminder of what you agreed to when registering:

"Although this BB does not and cannot review the messages posted and is not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we at this BB reserve the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever."

You were warned by another moderator and chose to disregard it. The actions of the moderators are not up for discussion.

#80981 04/22/04 09:49 AM
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HurtingPromiseKeeper,

I have before offered to have you email me on this subject. That offer is still open.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Again, in the interest of fairness I would suggest that the thread be returned in it's entirety or else completely deleted, like it was yesterday.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The entirety of the thread is not respectful.

Thanks,
Nokomis

<small>[ April 22, 2004, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Nokomis ]</small>

#80982 04/22/04 01:29 PM
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Nokomis - I have sent an e-mail to Murphy regarding this sanitized thread, and I haven't received a response back yet. I told you yesterday I would abide by your determination, as the original moderator. I disagreed that you felt fit to remove the post but I said nothing because I thought that was the fairest way to treat everyone involved. In reading between the lines I believe I know the reason you decided to remove it, and I'll not say anything else about that.

Unless you had some input on the decision to repost this sensored version, I have nothing else to say to you at this point. You also have the option of e-mailing me if you would like to discuss the issue. Thanks.

#80983 04/22/04 01:55 PM
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HurtingPromiseKeeper,

You are mistaken on a few counts. I never stated that I removed the thread, only that it was removed. I am the one that made the announcement to the board, after receiving emails wondering why the thread had disappeared.

I did, indeed, have input in the decision to repost an edited version.

As moderators, we do not have access to member's email addresses, so the option of directly emailing you is only viable if you first contact me.

Regards,
Nokomis

#80984 04/22/04 02:07 PM
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Thank you for for clearing up some aspects of this. If I decide to contact you again I will do so by e-mail. I still have some questions and comments on this whole issue but I'll not air them to the general membership. Thanks again.

#80985 04/22/04 04:29 PM
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I am not a moderator....and therefore do not speak for any moderator or mb, but even someone on the sidelines can get a feel for why some of these threads get editted, closed or censored. This is not a religious based site...but it is tolerant of all faiths and all cultures. hpk, I understand your beliefs and religious practices shun the wiccan religion. No one will persecute you or censor you from feeling that way....but if you try to convince others, or insult those who believe differently from you....even those you dislike....you can expect that your discussions will be censored. This is because religious discussions....especially disrespectful ones...take the energy from this board and fuel conflict that makes it uncomfortable for everyone. Threads and posts like that are consistently censored when they are insulting other people or their religious beliefs...no matter the race or religion of that person. If it were a Muslim, or a Jew or Christian Scientist or Scientologist....the result would be the same. No one is allowed to attack anyone else and call them an abomination or abnormal because of their beliefs. You would scream bloody murder if folks came on here and attacked Christianity....how can you be surprised that it's the same for other people's beliefs? If you are able to defend your religion against those who would attack it....a freedom you are allowed to respectfully have...then others are equally empowered to do the same. Anything less, is unfair, inconsistent, and against TOS.

<small>[ April 22, 2004, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

#80986 04/23/04 09:22 AM
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Star - I do respect your comments and insights. I also feel that Christian-bashing is a politically correct thing that secularists feel they have a mission to fulfill. Doublestandards are wrong and so is cencorship.

Star, I also understand you have some particular problems with those who hold to a literal interpretation of Scripture. I'm sorry if some organized denomination caused you harm in the past. You are one of those with a view that "there are many pathways to God". That's fine and your eternal destiny, and present fulfillment, will ultimately ride on that theology. You are obviously willing to take that chance, and more power to you.

My problem centers around a willingness of some to blindly accept any world-based theology, whether it be secularism/occult/cults and allow it to be presented as truth, but when a Christian dares to stand up for his/her values and principles there is an almost audible "gasp" and that person is held up to a different level of scrutiny. I understand that because Christianity differs from religion/cults/occult in that it is based solely upon the person of Jesus Christ. Anytime you mention the name of Jesus some are set on edge while others are intrigued and want to know more about Him. I am a proponent of putting the facts and information on the line and letting people decide for themselves what is truth or lies. People DO have an uncanny ability to form their own opinions and we don't need the thought-police to sanitize our thoughts in the name of political correctness or because of cronyism.

#80987 04/23/04 09:38 AM
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Posts: 137
Once again, I will re-iterate that the editing had nothing to do with whether the thoughts being presented were from a Christian view-point or another viewpoint, rather it was based upon disparaging comments made.

Thanks,
Nokomis

#80988 04/23/04 03:42 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,251
J
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J
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,251
Baddawg.... if you're out there, please don't allow the ugliness of this debate to turn you away from seeking help for your marriage. There are good, incredibly capable people on this site who can help you approach your wife in a loving, respectful manner. If you're concerned about posting here publically anymore, please seek help from one of the folks who is certified in the MB principles -- either from the Harleys or from Penny Tupy. Good luck and whatever you hold Divine bless you.

#80989 05/02/04 10:37 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1
W
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W
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1
Baddawg, is this the only problem in your relationship, religion issues? It could be that other issues are there, and this is what you both choose to argue over because maybe it's easier or you both know where you stand, there may be other things your afraid to talk about. Ask yourself "Why did your wife change?" What proof do you have that she in involved in such religious beliefs, is she just telling you this? What does she actually do that offends you? Have you witnessed something that set you off on the subject? I hope your still out there and wanting to chat. -WonderingOne


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