To OWs:<p>We don't "hate" all OW's...in fact, I can think of at least four or five that I feel genuine affection for...Tigger, Ohbratti, et al. I am talking fondness here. I really like and respect these women because they are honest and have courage. They don't justify, rationalize or make excuses and they are not afraid to face realities. They offer great insight, caring and loving advice and friendship.<p>There are many times when we do not agree, but because these differences are presented without insults, these differences are accepted and respected in the spirit for which it was intended and the harmony continues.<p>Any OW's wishing to be a part of this site are welcome here...leave your insults and button pushing remarks at the door and come on in. We CAN discuss and debate without defensiveness.<p>If you do not like what you hear it could mean you may be hearing uncomfortable truths. The fastest way to take attention off the disagreeable subject is to call someone "bitter and hateful", using calculated buzz words designed to incite a negative reaction, transferring the guilt from oneself onto another. <p>Don't pretend to get along with us then hurl insults at the first point of view you disagree with. That is not playing fair. This is not point counterpoint where my way is the right way because I am wrong a lot. I just really hate bad manners.<p>Catnip =^^=

I dont recall throwing insults, but do remember hearing a few. I agree , I dont thing any one should be able to debate with out all the garbage. I think maybe both sides seem to have a problem with it. I certainly didnt mean to offend any one, however, I will not let someone sit there, and bash people for just having a different opinion. so I will be happy to leave this board and find other ways to work on my marriage , I wish every one here the best.
those dealing with this oc , on who evers side, I hope you all do what you feel is best. For you and OC, Maybe as a mom, I am sensitive. as A mother you can at least understand that.
So I will be grateful for what I have with my family and his family and move on and let you people vent to each other.

CATNIP,
You are right, I am new to this site. I have visited for a year, but finally posted only this past month. I have been a betrayed spouse more times than I want to count. I am now in the opposite postition. I dont like it, but I am here, I dont understand why we cant as adults, just cant talk and not argue, frankly it makes no sense. every one has an opinion, big deal, it doesnt make one right from the other.
I have a good relationship with my daughters father and learning to have one with his wife. I dont see anything wrong with that. I am working on my marriage, doesnt mean I dont have an opinion and can offer it to someone who ask for advice, I can relate more to justine, so I told her what I thought. doesnt make it right, doesnt make it wrong. Makes it my opinion. thats all.
yes this is a site for fixing your marriage, but I didnt know as human beings we wouldnt want to help people in need.
I dont know all you have been through with your husbands just as you have no clue where i Have been and where my future is.
dont take it all so personal.

Mom of 5<p>How did my complaint about bad manners translate for you that we, or I, did not want to 'help' people with differing points of view?<p>I am glad you have contact and everyone is getting along for the sake of your OC...I am delighted...what makes you think because someone like me is adamantly opposed for contact for me and our family that I think this would apply to you or anyone else who is successful at contact?<p>This site is for anyone who needs and wants help in restoring their marriage, MO5, so please don't leave. No one here has ever turned their back on anyone who wanted or needed them. The 'bickering' starts when someone gets defensive and starts telling us we are bitter and hateful and we should focus on what our husbands did to us and stop talking about the OW. I know I get pretty indignant at this because the people here have been so hurt and are trying so hard to make sense out of all of this and desperately trying to find their way back to their marriage. <p>I am sorry if you took this personally. I was trying to make a point that we should refrain from presuming things about people when we don't know their story or have taken the time to get to know them.<p>Catnip =^^=

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mom of five:
<strong><p>I dont recall throwing insults, but do remember hearing a few. <p>I will not let someone sit there, and bash people for just having a different opinion.<p> so I will be happy to leave this board and find other ways to work on my marriage <p>Maybe as a mom, I am sensitive. as A mother you can at least understand that.<p>
let you people vent to each other.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>1. I wasn't referring to you.<p>2. Me either! That's why I got so freaking pissed. None of us here have ever been known to ever 'bash' anyone for a differing opinion. But, people come here all the time and do this to us. In three years, I have never seen this unless it came from outside the group or from someone new. Newbies usually come to understand that it is OK to see things differently because there is no "One Size Fits All" here. I certainly don't think your way is wrong because I know it is right for you. When I embrace adoption as a logical option that gives EVERYONE a decent chance at a better life, especially and including OC, that is just MY opinion...it doesn't mean you or anyone else should go that route...it's just the way I feel.<p>3. C'mon...don't leave. There is much to sort out and learn.<p>4. I am a Mom, too. I am a mom, a step mom, a bio mom to a son I gave up, a grandma, an aunt, an ex-wife, a present wife and once upon a time I was an OW until I found out my lover was married then dumped him and never saw him or spoke to him again. I guess I have been a lot of things and a lot of people in a half a century and the life experience has earned for me a certain amount of understanding.<p>5. Ordinarily, we 'people' only vent when something has happened or when someone has provoked a reaction. Don't let the 'venting' sour you. It's a very healthy exercise in recovery. I highly recommend it.<p>So, please stick around.<p>Catnip =^^=

[QUOTE]Originally posted by catnip:<p>Catnip,
Why do you lash out when someone such as myself offeres advice to someone other than yourself who has requested feedback from us all? I sense a strong sense of hate/dislike from you and from other BS. Perhaps you don't intend to insult, but you do. In turn I and others become very defensive and with the insults come more. And then what happens is people such as tobemommy (remember that one?) and Justine seem to disappear and most likely not get the well rounded perspecive from us all.
I don't agree with many of your views. That is no secret and likewise you don't agree with mine. But I haven't walked in your shoes, nor you in mine. It seems that we all are provoked, not just you, the BS's. Many of us have been alot of things to alot of people, I'm sure, and it seems we are all here to serve our own purposes in life. I really hope Momof5 doesn't leave this site. But you know what, I can understand why she would want to. I felt the same way more than once. Certain BS's are very condesending and sarcastic and presume to know more about us as individuals than they do. They seem to project their own feelings about the OW in their spouses life onto us all.
We have all been hurt, whether as a WS, OW, BS, whoever we are or were in this life. Respect and debate are so necessary at this site. But please catnip, don't retrack your claws and pretend you are the innocent one here. We all dished out some sarcastic remarks but in the beginning us OW or women with OC were offereing advice to Justine that you and Gemini and others just didn't like because it hit a nerve with you due to your position as BS. As a result, the BS began what you claim to protest against.
I don't think us OW really care if you have a fondless for us or not. We aren't here to make friends, we are all here to get help and the means to do so is to learn about others and what they have or haven't done in a similar situation.

CMiranda,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I don't think us OW really care if you have a fondless for us or not. We aren't here to make friends, we are all here to get help and the means to do so is to learn about others and what they have or haven't done in a similar situation. <hr></blockquote><p>Agreed. I would state that some of the defensiveness that some of the ladies have exhibited here stem from unmarried OW's coming in and "provoking". These posters aren't married, and aren't interested in marriage building. This particular area of the MB boards is clearly the most sensitive; it's bad enough to have to deal with an affair, but dealing with resulting pregnancies and children from it make it extremely hard to come up with win-win situations for everyone involved.<p>I come from a different angle than most of the posters here. I showed up on the boards ('a long time ago') after my wife's affair was over---and I had had a year's worth of counseling with Steve Harley. What I will get "fiesty" about is when people post opinions that fly in the face of MB principles, without the ability to back them up with sound reasoning. Because this is not a public board, it's nice to see at least some of the posts have a MB flavor. And it's OK to disagree with the MB principles---if you want to discuss alternatives---but it's best to at least phrase the discussion around the core concepts.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by catnip:<p>"I am glad you have contact and everyone is getting along for the sake of your OC...I am delighted...what makes you think because someone like me is adamantly opposed for contact for me and our family that I think this would apply to you or anyone else who is successful at contact?"<p>Why you seem opposed catnip is because you say so in your previous posts, and there are many, which depict your ill feelings for OC and OW. Us women with OC will defend our children until the bitter end as you would if I began to insult and attack your children. I recall some disqusting posts by you catnip regarding OW and OC. If you don't recall them, I'll go back and paste some in here as a reminder. As OW I can defend myself but children are innocent no matter what the situation and they deserve love from both their parents if that is what is required to raise them to be secure and happy. It is your attack of children more than anything else that puts me in complete defense mode. It is the defense of the WS, (adult dodging responsibility in some cases), which I can respect you're here to work out your M, but with that defense comes utter disqust for an innocent child. I am defender of children as they can't defend themselves from adults. It seems so clear to me as WS that the spouse is not innocent and many A's are not as you suggest they are. You and Gemini both take shots about OW asking permission to sleep with husband, etc. I ask this, did you look at the other side of that question? Did WS ask W or H if they could sleep with OP or have an loving relationship with them? No, and it is point of view that seems crazy. BS seem to defend spouse as innocent victim and it is infuriating when I know for myself, that is not the case. I don't want to rub salt but what do you get from continuing to hate OC because child was produced from the intimacy of A if you can forgive A to begin with and rebuild M? <p>"This site is for anyone who needs and wants help in restoring their marriage..." The 'bickering' starts when someone gets defensive and starts telling us we are bitter and hateful and we should focus on what our husbands did to us and stop talking about the OW"<p>Let us all contribute then and things will get better. You are right the bickering starts with people on the defensive. OW are entitled to respond and post without having to be attacked because their opinions do not match yours, no? then why the attacks to begin with?
I don't believe you should be focused on what your H did, but by the same standard, I don't think you should be focused on OC. you seem to want to punish OW but you hurt the child. You say things like OC should be given up for adoption for that is best for all parties. I read this and hear you say it is best for you. My son belongs with me and I take offense with such generalizations regarding children. I think about if I let OM acknowledge our son as his, and his W refusing contact, it is outrageous to me. This child is his as much as mine and the whole adoption is best just seems to fit BS neediness. I can't apologize for that. It makes me glad that I made the decision I have. Now OM wants to remain friends so he can secetly see child and keep tabs on us. Don't you think that hurts his M more than if he had contact? Of course my whole story is different right now because his W and my H don't know (yet). But under current circumstances, the A for him lingers so to speak. Just today I answered my phone and it was him. I ended it 1 month ago. See my point?

CMiranda,<p>You're not contributing to MarriageBuilding here. And these statements:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>is because you say so in your previous posts, and there are many, which depict your ill feelings for OC and OW<hr></blockquote><p>and <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I don't want to rub salt but what do you get from continuing to hate OC<hr></blockquote><p>
are patently false. I have been here since catnip has been posting. Not once (ever) have I seen her exhibit "ill feelings" for a child. She happens to despise her husband's OW---but she has some pretty valid reasons for doing so.<p>I'm guessing that if catnip had the opportunity to raise this OC without interference from the OW, she'd have jumped at the chance. I know that other's here would have as well.<p>Your issue is with how these BS's can feel such malice towards an OP, but not their own spouse. First off---if you're trying to recover from an affair, it's not going to work well if you can't forgive your spouse. Not hold them as "innocent victims", but forgive. That part is obvious. Why should you forgive an OP? Well---there are a lot of excellent reasons why you should, but this takes time, and some of the people who are here haven't gotten to that stage. And it's certainly tougher to forgive an OP who is constantly pushing for "contact", asking (and getting) outrageous sums of money for support, and financially devestating the family. And unfortunately, some of the people here are dealing with that.<p>Does that make sense???

CM,<p>At the risk of getting sucked into this debate, I feel compelled to mention something to you. Catnip and others have a chance to talk, yell, cry with, get angry with, vent at, etc. with their WS's.
They don't get that opportunity nor should they with their OW.<p>They have no control over what happens with OC.<p>WHile you take it as Catnip attacking YOUR child when she vents about the OC/OW in her life, she is not. But, she does need to vent because frankly if she does it too much to WS the marriage will be over. She doesn't want that and apparently neither does her H.<p>So while it may seem onesided to you, I doubt seriously if Catnip is a shrinking violet [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] at home with her H.<p>So far you have not seen the pain and anger your actions have and will cause. You probably don't even really notice the effects your A has had on your H and his feelings about the marriage. But, you have noticed that your actions have deeply affected H's life. He must now consider and take responsibility for a child. Sadly, he doesn't know the full truth. When that happens you will begin to see some of what you have seen here.<p>My point is you have not really yet dealt with the pain from the WS side yet. Perhaps you won't, but I do hope you learn something from Catnip's and Gemini's posts, there is a lot of pain. YET, realize that they are working on their marriages nevertheless. <p>So perhaps if you would step out of your role as defender of all children, and simply look at what is before you in this site you will see, the pain, the deep deep pain. BUT, if you look closely and listen carefully, you will see the hope, the will to do the right things, and that even the future of your marriage is brighter than you think.<p>You don't know it yet, but women like Catnip and Gemini represent the hope for your marriage. You will want your H to be much like them. Hurting but working on their marriage.<p>I think that is why your comment about them being angry and against children hurts them so much. The do have anger, but they are not against children. But, more importantly in negates all that they have gone through to save their marriages. <p>The WS's that bother them the most are the ones that have not even been where most of the respected WSs here have been. Dealing with the pain and results of their decisions. Perhaps that is why the advice to the lady that first started this post was not received as it should have been.<p>Perhaps if you go back and realize that some of your statements bothered Tigger as well, someone else who made a decision that adoption was best for their child, and then think why: you will see.<p>CM, you input here is welcome. I am happy to offer you advice although you really don't want to listen to it. So are most of the people that have posted to you. Your reluctance about taking the advice is well understood, but as you have open mindedly thought about it you have seen its merit even if you decide not to follow it. THat is all anyone really asks here.<p>But, as K pointed out, advice that goes against the basic philosophy of this site, is going to be reviewed sternly. So be it. K is the poster child for the success of this approach to marriage building. Me? I am neither a BS nor a WS. I came here years ago for other reasons.<p>But, these issues are important to me,so I continue to post. My goal??? To see you and anyone else that comes here endup with their marriage rebuild and better than when they came.<p>So please stop and think abit. The comments are not about your child. THe comments are not about your suitability to post here. The comments are not about ignoring the pain you will go through because of your decisions. THe comments are to help other people.<p>But, you are right, Catnip, does have claws. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Please think about these things.<p>God Bless,<p>JL<p>[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Just Learning:
[QB]Catnip and others have a chance to talk, yell, cry with, get angry with, vent at, etc. with their WS's. They don't get that opportunity nor should they with their OW.QB]<hr></blockquote><p>I can vouch for this statement, only I think it applies to any relationship, regardless of the who's who. Being able to let out your feelings is critical to successful communication and understanding. I, the OW, have been able to talk, cry, vent, etc with the BS, and vice versa. This ability to share how we feel, without any reprisals, has enabled us to move in a forward and positive direction. Absent that communication, I'm sure there would still be a lot of anger and hatred. <p>BW asked me, not that long ago, why I still harbored so many harsh feelings towards her H. I let her know, that through all we have been through, MM has never sincerely apologized for his mistreatment of me. Two years ago, I didn't think it mattered. I tried telling myself that he didn't owe me a thing. I was wrong. Anytime you do something wrong, I believe you DO owe that person an apology and should try to make amends. In this case, he owed me and BS an apology and to make amends to his W. When I told her this, she was surprised that it was that simple. I told her that words can be very powerful and that a heartfelt apology went a long way with me.<p>So, until you find your peace, the heart wages war. It is rarely logical, reasonable, or fair. It just is. My view: this forum is not just a place for support and advice. Writing here is it's own therapy. It's a place to vent and release a lot of the anger and frustration so that we can go back to our loved ones a little less burdened and little more able to cope. This is a "punching bag" of sorts. Ya come in, ya work it out, and ya go home.<p>[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: ohbratti1 ]</p>

K, JustLearning, Ohbratti1, and yes,Catnip,<p>Thank you so much for your tireless efforts at explaining why we come here. I read these posts every day and have found such comfort in them. I also purposefully stay away from posting on all of the confrontational posts because I usually get too angry for words.<p>The punching bag analogy is just perfect!!!!!!!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>This is a "punching bag" of sorts. Ya come in, ya work it out, and ya go home.
<hr></blockquote><p>If I didn't have this place to vent my feelings I would not even want to be looking at H let alone living with him. Those feelings that torture us would be festering and no good would come from it.<p>So again I thank you ladies for your eloquent and even "right to the point" words!<p>Take care,
Why

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CMiranda:
[QB][QUOTE]Originally posted by catnip:<p>Catnip,
Why do you lash out when someone such as myself offeres advice to someone other than yourself who has requested feedback from us all? I sense a strong sense of hate/dislike from you and from other BS. Perhaps you don't intend to insult, but you do. In turn I and others become very defensive and with the insults come more. QB]<hr></blockquote><p>THIS is what I am talking about. YOU were the first one to throw punches around here and your delivery has been less than cordial on so many occasions. THIS is what has really torqued me up because YOU were the one who was slinging around disrespectful judgments, YOU were the one being disrespectful. And now, you are doing that transferrence thing, turning it around onto me or anyone else you disagree with. I don't disagree with anything you have to say except for the way you say it...and this bullshyt about "hate" you keep slinging around won't fly with me. It ain't hate...it's aggravation and frustration that I can't seem to get through the density.<p>Catnip =^^=

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CMiranda:<p>
And then what happens is people such as tobemommy (remember that one?) and Justine seem to disappear and most likely not get the well
rounded perspecive from us all.<p>They are all OW's and could get their own site instead of crashing ours.

I don't agree with many of your views. That is no secret and likewise you don't agree with mine.<p>And that's OK...that is NOT the issue here<p>Certain BS's are very condesending and sarcastic and presume to know more about us as individuals than they do. They seem to project their own feelings about the OW in their spouses life onto us all.<p>YOU were the one who came here being condescending and sarcastic. If you think we are projecting our experiences with our OW's onto you, you are paranoid.<p> Respect and debate are so necessary at this site. But please catnip, don't retrack your claws and pretend you are the innocent one here.<p>Oh, bite me, Cmiranda. This is the silliest thing you've said yet. I ain't pretending anything. I've been extremely forthcoming about my feelings about your attacks onto others and rude remarks. I know I can be a bytch and make no apologies for it...one thing I can do better than you is admit when I am wrong.<p> We all dished out some sarcastic remarks but in the beginning us OW or women with OC were offereing advice to Justine that you and Gemini and others just didn't like because it hit a nerve with you due to your position as BS.<p>Here you go making all these innaccurate assumptions again. I can't speak for Gem but I don't care what advice you give the other OW's. <p>I don't think us OW really care if you have a fondless for us or not. We aren't here to make friends,<p>Then get the F off our site and make your own! I won't miss ya. <p>we are all here to get help and the means to do so is to learn about others and what they have or haven't done in a similar situation<p>Oh, sure you are. You crashed this site to get absolution and fight with anyone who says anything you don't agree with...you ask for advice then don't like the answers, when you don't like the answers, you start calling us hateful and bitter. Can't someone just be really annoyed, frustrated and pissed that they are dealing with idocy?

Touche, Miss Kitty!<p>goodandplenty, formerly Pollypurebred

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CMiranda:
[QB][QUOTE]<p>Why you seem opposed catnip is because you say so in your previous posts, and there are many, which depict your ill feelings for OC and OW.<p>There you go again, Cmiranda...you are so paranoid and think this is all about YOU, YOU, YOU, when all I am talking about is MY particular situation and MY feelings about MY situation and the OW/OC in MY life...not yours. <p>IT AIN'Y ABOUT YOU.<p> Us women with OC will defend our children until the bitter end as you would if I began to insult and attack your children.<p>I never insulted YOUR children<p> I recall some disqusting posts by you catnip regarding OW and OC. If you don't recall them, I'll go back and paste some in here as a reminder.<p>I know what I have said and it is how I have felt at any given time and will stand by every word I have said...what is disgusting to you is understood by others like me. This is what I mean about not being able to accept someone else's point of view...so what if I feel this way about my situation...how does this effect you?<p> As OW I can defend myself but children are innocent no matter what the situation and they deserve love from both their parents if that is what is required to raise them to be secure and happy. It is your attack of children more than anything else that puts me in complete defense mode.<p>I don't attack children, you silly goose. I never have. Just because I don't want anything to do with the OC is hardly an attack on children. Sheesh. Your statements here are so far from what I think and how I see stuff...you're going on sound bites.<p> It is the defense of the WS, (adult dodging responsibility in some cases), which I can respect you're here to work out your M, but with that defense comes utter disqust for an innocent child<p>Oh, puh-leeze. This is getting more ridiculous by the moment. You don't know me well enough to make these judgments.<p>I am defender of children as they can't defend themselves from adults. It seems so clear to me as WS that the spouse is not innocent and many A's are not as you suggest they are.<p>Hahaha...this is so ridiculous...you make me sound like I only like children...fried. My kids would die laughing.<p> You and Gemini both take shots about OW asking permission to sleep with husband, etc. I ask this, did you look at the other side of that question? <p>What are you talking about?<p>Did WS ask W or H if they could sleep with OP or have an loving relationship with them? No, and it is point of view that seems crazy. <p>Oh, I see what you are saying. Well, no, spouse did not ask me if he could boink some slut. No he didn't. But, I found about about the slut the first three days after they met, I called her and pleaded with her not to see him and she told me to F off among many other things. So, she knew he was married and just didn't care. She had no dignity, no decorum, knew he was drinking again, knew he was ill, knew I was desperate to save my marriage and help my husband, but, she just didn't care, Cmiranda...she just didn't care. No sisterhood or honor there.<p>I don't want to rub salt but what do you get from continuing to hate OC because child was produced from the intimacy of A if you can forgive A to begin with and rebuild M?<p>One last time...I don't hate OC. I wish it well. I just don't want contact. <p>I don't believe you should be focused on what your H did, but by the same standard, I don't think you should be focused on OC. you seem to want to punish OW but you hurt the child.<p>I'm not focused on the OC, Cmiranda...I am focused on the enormous child support the courts have mandated against us, by refusing to believe we have nothing, refusing to acknowledge or even look at our tax returns, garnishing every penny from H's salary except for $150 a week to live on for ourselves...now you tell me...is this fair? See? You do NOT know the entire story and are ill equipped to make these judgment calls without the proper information. We have been forced to move, almost lost our house, had to go into hiding for six months to recoup some losses and pay some bills so we could keep our house, etc, etc. etc. If you only knew what we have been through. We even got a faux divorce to protect me from her extremely aggressive attorney's trying to take verything we had left. It was incredible.<p> You say things like OC should be given up for adoption for that is best for all parties.<p>It's true, I do beleive this and always will.<p> I read this and hear you say it is best for you. My son belongs with me and I take offense with such generalizations regarding children.<p>Too bad. This is how I feel and if it offends you, tough.<p> I think about if I let OM acknowledge our son as his, and his W refusing contact, it is outrageous to me. This child is his as much as mine and the whole adoption is best just seems to fit BS neediness. I can't apologize for that.<p>Don't apologize ever. This is what works best for you and what you believe. I can give you that without taking it personally...why can';t you do the same for me?<p>
Of course my whole story is different right now because his W and my H don't know (yet). <p>Whoa...what a tangled web we weave...
QB]<hr></blockquote>

Catnip, Meowwwwwwwwww you go girl! <p>To the one that thinks catnip and gem are just a few, there are lots of us that have the same feelings as they do . We dont have to explain. So why dont you give it up it aint gonna fly here.<p> with love flowerseed<p>[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: flowerseed ]</p>

CMiranda,<p>I posted this message on the "Justine" thread too, because I wanted to draw your attention to something. On that thread you wrote:<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I offered Justine my advice and that was all I had to say about that issue until I was attacked. I rationally and calmly stated what I felt she should do. So, yes, I'm really fed up because it's not the first time its happened and I'm by no means the first person it's been done to. I can't justify sitting like a little wallflower while narrow people bash me. <hr></blockquote><p>You also said earlier that everyone has an opinion and they are entitled to it. I fully agree that everyone should be able to give their advice without others trying to critique it.<p>But, if you look on page 2 of this thread, you will find that neither Catnip nor Gemini were the aggressors in this thread. Your very first post on page 2 gives Justine advice. However, immediately after that you posted a second time ripping into and bashing Catnip as follows:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Your response is harsh and written with blinders on. It obvious that you are deeply hurt by your circumstances and that is understandable. However, I disagree about several of your statements to Justine.<hr></blockquote><p>One by one, point by point, you dismantle Catnip's point of view in your thread. And in the midst of the post you state:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I have said this to you once before catnip, if you must feel hatred and must fuel it, it is misplaced.<hr></blockquote><p>"I have said this to you once before?" That sounds very much like lecturing to a child. Catnip has been on this Board a long time and she has helped more people and been more responsive to their needs than you will ever know. No wonder you got the barrage of responses that resulted.<p>If you want respect for your opinion, then you have to respect the opinions of others. There are plenty of things said on this Board that I disagree with, but I don't believe it is my place to try to change the opinions of everyone here. I express my view and move on -- the reader will take whatever is or is not right for themself out of the posts on this Board.<p>But telling people they have blinders on, are out of touch with reality, are full of hatred, etc. is not debating; it is insulting. <p>Please review your post on page 2 and see if you still believe YOU were the victim. Seems to me Cat was minding her own business and she got jumped in an alley [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: heavenlybody26 ]</p>

“There you go again, Cmiranda...you are so paranoid and think this is all about YOU, YOU, YOU, when all I am talking about is MY particular situation and MY feelings about MY situation and the OW/OC in MY life...not yours.”
Hardly paranoid catnips, but you feel about me as I do about you, that is no big surprise. You are kind to people who share your ideas and only your ideas. Your replys are very much all about you and while I defend OC you defend your WS.
“I never insulted YOUR children”
I’ve attached your overview of what you REALLY think of children Catnip. You have insulted my child. I read this and was so disqusted by it that it is what I associate you with now. It is this:<p>Quote by catnip on April 2, 2002

“Oh yeah...it just gets me that we have OW's coming here all the time snorting about their spawn and how they are so innocent and deserved to be loved when things like this happen tiame after time after time after time and OUR children are the ones who are traumatized, deeply hurt, made to feel insecure through all this discovery/recovery between the parents after the OP has had a field day barreling into a marriage (with spouses' willingness, cooperation and their own aggresive behavior, I know) but the OP just doesn't care...they just don't care at all about our kids, us or who they hurt or what happens to any of us. I don't want to hear one more word about the poor, innocent OC's that need love, contact, invovlement, protection and MONEY. Spare me! When the playing field has been leveled, we will consider the OC's when our own children have been loved, protected, cared for and are not vicitmized by interlopers who have changed their lives forever...and just plain don't care about them or the impact on them.”
I don't attack children, you silly goose. I never have. Just because I don't want anything to do with the OC is hardly an attack on children. Sheesh. Your statements here are so far from what I think and how I see stuff...you're going on sound bites.
Yah, right, go back and read what you wrote.
“Hahaha...this is so ridiculous...you make me sound like I only like children...fried. My kids would die laughing. “
I’m sure your kids don’t read your posts. So, no further comment by me on this one catnip. I think you’d love to fry your husbands child with OW. Yes indeed, I do.<p>“Oh, I see what you are saying. Well, no, spouse did not ask me if he could boink some slut. No he didn't. But, I found about about the slut the first three days after they met, I called her and pleaded with her not to see him and she told me to F off among many other things. So, she knew he was married and just didn't care. She had no dignity, no decorum, knew he was drinking again, knew he was ill, knew I was desperate to save my marriage and help my husband, but, she just didn't care, Cmiranda...she just didn't care. No sisterhood or honor there.”
I maintain over and over that BS need to have their heads examined if you believe for a minute that WS would have defended you, the BS to OP if that person did in fact want to discuss the BS. I’m sure it makes you feel better about yourself to call OW a slut. Whatever helps you.
“One last time...I don't hate OC. I wish it well. I just don't want contact.”
I think your reference to your husbands child as “it” says it all.
“I'm not focused on the OC, Cmiranda...I am focused on the enormous child support the courts have mandated against us, by refusing to believe we have nothing, refusing to acknowledge or even look at our tax returns, garnishing every penny from H's salary except for $150 a week to live on for ourselves...now you tell me...is this fair? See? You do NOT know the entire story and are ill equipped to make these judgment calls without the proper information. We have been forced to move, almost lost our house, had to go into hiding for six months to recoup some losses and pay some bills so we could keep our house, etc, etc. etc. If you only knew what we have been through. We even got a faux divorce to protect me from her extremely aggressive attorney's trying to take verything we had left. It was incredible.”
Your husband is responsible and I’m sure the courts are just in their decision. If the courts have to force a wage garnishment then I would think its because your husband and you haven’t lived up to his obligation as a father. Unless courts do mandate garnishments on parents willing to pay what they owe? Don’t those people pay willingly? I would bet you are left with $150.00 because you owed back pay.
“It's true, I do beleive this and always will.” (about adoption)
I can understand why, it would ease your husbands financial obligations. Is that why you feel so strongly? Anyway, that is your opinion. I’m entitled to believe otherwise. It is a great choice for many, but if the mother wants the child then I think believing to give it away is self serving people such as yourself.
“Too bad. This is how I feel and if it offends you, tough.”
No problem but you please, expect the same from me.
“Whoa...what a tangled web we weave...”
Not too tangled, it actually works fine for me. However the principals of this site and the great advice by some here suggest that OM’s W and my H should be told the truth. I have been discussing doing just that with a a mc. I read your opinions and it drives me back in the other direction. OM despite my decision to move on with my life, wants continued relationship, wants a lot of things (besides sex catnip) that I can no longer give to him. Not that I don’t want to at times but it’s not my place anymore. So, you can think of me as a slut or whatever, but some other BS’s husband continues to persue me. Not the other way around. My ex-OM and I think we spared a lot of people from a lot of pain, most important to us were the children involved, so the web has worked just fine for me.

You are right on most of your points. I can't defend myself, your view on this is right. But don't excuse catnip to me.
I don't believe I'm the victim though. I think in this case, Justine was the victim. If I had the time right now to go back through any more previous threads in this area about OC, I'd recall some of the specifics of how this has happened before, as a matter of fact, I think you were there too, but no time today.
Anyway, I'll try harder to do what alot of others say they do, just ignore what I don't need.