When I was fresh out of high school, I had a relationship with a guy that had a steady girlfriend...not a wife, not a fiancee. I REALLY liked the guy, and was not at all concerned about his 'main-squeeze', unless only to be jealous of the status of 'the one' that she had. I didn't care about her feelings thinking, if he wanted to be with her, he would. To put it plainly, I didn't give two hoots about her feelings, and hoped he would choose me over her. <p>As BS's, I'm sure many of us have been in this position in high school, college, etc. with guys and their steadies. But we knew married or engaged men were off limits. <p>All of this is to say that BS's know that many (not all) OW don't give a rat's patootie about the feelings of the wives, children, and other collaterals when they are involved with married men. We know this first hand because many BS's have been where OW's have been relationship-wise, albeit to a lesser degree. <p>The sequence of events (usually)leading up to the OW bearing the child of a MM screams of indifference toward the wife and children of the marriage...indifference to downright aggression.<p>Yet many OW are surprised, based on the reactions on this board, regarding the indifference their child encounters from the wives. Why? It is a simple case of reciprocation. OW shouldn't expect the wives to put the OC before the wife's own desires, when the OW couldn't put the children of the marriage before OW's own desires. <p>OW, who know how difficult it is to do for the good of innocent children, should not expect more of other people than that which they could accomplish themselves. In other words, you couldn't be the bigger person for my child's sake, why should I be the bigger person for your child's sake? Because he/she is the child of the man I love?...but weren't my children the children of the man you loved?<p>P.S.
I, and most of us I'm sure, do not hold the OW singularly responsible for this horrible situation, although from an outsider's point-of-view, I can see where one would get that impression. But what the outsiders to the marriage do not see is: a husband prostrate with remorse, the intense forgiveness campaign launched and sustained by said husband, and the YEARS of haranguing and getting our verbal 'rocks off' on said husband. <p>We get no such satisfaction from OW, who in our minds trot off, leaving us laughing stocks, and 21 years worth of CS payment poorer to boot. If we should confront the OW to express our dissatisfaction, we would be slapped with a restraining order. So we vent here, safely, anonymously, to avoid warming Central booking's bench, and to quell the LB'ing at home. <p>Capice? We are not the simpletons that we are being made out to be. We KNOW are husbands are to blame.<p>TGIF
goodandplenty, formerly Pollypurebred

BRAVO, G&P, Bravo...<p>As a BS who had a phony retraining order slapped against her for sending a letter to the OW asking for reasonable support agreement, I certainly appreciate your lucid, reasonable and logical expression of this imbalance.<p>Thank you<p>Catnip =^^=

Merci, Catnip! <p>Can you belive it's almost the 2 year anniversary of this board?

Polly<p>I'd love to hear how you have fared over the past couple years...sometime when you feel like it I would love to hear about your progress and what is going on in your life now. When you left, I really, really missed your wonderful posts...I hated to see you go.<p>Is it really almost two years??<p>Catnip =^^=

One of these days, I'll speak with you on the side, if I can figure out how to get my email addy to you incognito. My antagonists press the flesh to the computer all day, reason #1 why I stopped posting a while back. I don't want them to be privy to anymore of my business than they already are.

G&P,<p>Thanks for putting into words, some of what I would have liked to have said.<p>There are no "winners" in a situation like this.<p>Cheers,
Twiisty

I am more of a lurker but I have been reading alot of the posts today as I have been on vacation and when I got to this one I couldn't believe the answer to all of the other posts are here, I truly hope that all of the OW's who feel that the BS's are bitter and selfish will read this post!<p>Thank you for putting into words what I have been yelling at my computer all day!!<p>vs&h

GoodAndPlenty,
As a lot of BS here you have hit the virtual nail on the head.
Thankyou for putting words into my mouth....
love
Debi

QUOTE]Originally posted by goodandplenty:<p>Goodandp:<p>All my life until my A, I was a one man kind of woman. Unlike you, In HS & college, I brushed off the attention from guys with girlfriends. I knew of girls like you and had my opinions of you. I dated a few guys here and there but not very interested in anyone. It took alot to get my attention and when my H did, I was hooked. When my friend's older sister got involved with a MM with kids we all thought it was outrageous, wrong, stupid, etc. My views on A's were alot different back then. When my sister dumped her then boyfriend for having a 5 yrs. tryst with her bestfriend, I was thrilled for her. I got married and believed in happily ever after. I met someone who was at first my friend. I didn't plan to fall in love and neither did he. I didn’t even know he was married at first, that’s another story. By the standards of my youth, since we loved eachother, I should have just divorced my H and hooked up with lover. But I found life wasn't that simple. None of this is simple. But through many years with OM, we both chose to put our children first, that is the main reason we didn't move forward with our relationship. I've been accused of trying to convince myself or people here that "he loved me" but it is a fact of my story, so I'm including it, just as you have included the facts of your story.<p>You are right, I didn’t care about his wifes feelings overall. But I did in fleeting moments, as did OM about my H. We both agreed we weren’t being fair to spouses, that we didn’t want to hurt them, our children and with that no plan that we came up with to be together could be put into motion without hurting them. So we didn’t implement the vast array of plans we had devised over the years.<p> Quote Goodandplenty - “Yet many OW are surprised, based on the reactions on this board, regarding the indifference their child encounters from the wives. Why? It is a simple case of reciprocation. OW shouldn't expect the wives to put the OC before the wife's own desires, when the OW couldn't put the children of the marriage before OW's own desires.”<p>I just don’t get why the W (or H) can forgive a spouse who had gone that far to outside the M and still have this atttidue. But my view is from a diffent angle, particularly where WS is concerned. I see the WS role very different than BS sees it obviously. <p>Quote Goodandplenty - “OW, who know how difficult it is to do for the good of innocent children, should not expect more of other people than that which they could accomplish themselves. In other words, you couldn't be the bigger person for my child's sake, why should I be the bigger person for your child's sake? Because he/she is the child of the man I love?...but weren't my children the children of the man you loved?”<p>I couldn’t agree more. I was the bigger person. Well, both of us were. We set aside our desires for the good of the children and the spouses. I am in process of working on M and have found a good MC. I think you touched on something for me in your statement that may be at the root of my anger here. I do feel that I (he and I both) sacrificed something we wanted for the happiness of others. No, I don’t want a metal for it. But I don’t deserve to be accused of being a self centered home wrecker. I think this is why BS should rise up. Because not all OP were out there plotting the worst for you. Yes, I fell in love with the wrong guy. He was the 2nd guy in my life that I loved or was intimate with besides my H. Maybe I was naïve about my choices. Okay, but I am not a mean person and I’d never set out to hurt his W or family. Never. He and I both met our spouse as teenagers and had been with them for a long time. We thought we found what we were looking for in a life partner. I can’t apologize for that. But we discovered that with M and family come other responsibilities far above ourselves. I would have loved his children if we had gone that route, but having put them (and my sone) first in resolving our situation leads me to believe I (we) did put the kids first.<p>
Quote Goodandplenty – “We get no such satisfaction from OW, who in our minds trot off, leaving us laughing stocks, and 21 years worth of CS payment poorer to boot. If we should confront the OW to express our dissatisfaction, we would be slapped with a restraining order. So we vent here, safely, anonymously, to avoid warming Central booking's bench, and to quell the LB'ing at home.”<p>I see your point. Although, in my case, I don’t see his W as a laughing stock. I never laughed at her or their M. I guess there are OW/M out there who feel that way or get some kind of ego trip from it. I can’t understand that. It seems that there are a lot of bad experiences out there with court orders and the like. I can’t imagine it for me. Seems like enough hurt already.<p>Quote Goodandplenty – “Capice? We are not the simpletons that we are being made out to be. We KNOW are husbands are to blame.”<p>I admit that some of the responses of BS seemed simple to me. WS (man or woman) shouldn’t be treated as a person who was led astray by aliens. When we do go wayward, I don’t understand why OP would be attacked so fierecly. I guess when my H is told, if he attacked OM, I would be inclined to defend my ex. I have always been of the belief that we must own our own. It struck me quite a few times that WS were being defended from their own affairs. The relatinship they got into by choice. That’s all.

C miranda, I would like to see what you say when you tell your H of A and that child is not his. I think it will kill him. I know he is the father of your child in all the ways that matters, but he deserves to know.<p>you see, like you, I married young to the only man I knew. It mattered to me all these years that I was the only one he had been with, that I was the only one to bear his children. It took me a lot of years and pain and child losses to get the children we have. It did not come easy.<p>My H knows all this. He knows I may never forgive him for what he and OW has done.Both are culpable.But bearing the child and keeping the child were the sole responsibility of the OW. She made those decisions. MY H had no say in it, and when he expressed his say, the OW ignored his feelings. Not the way my H and I made decisions about having kids, when, to whom, etc.. <p>My H may wish contact with OC out of some distorted view of love or responsbility, but the fact also remains that he feels incredible stress and loss with the birth of OC. He knows he has taken much from me and our marriage. He knows and has said I was the only one he wanted to have children with. He wished OW would miscarry-he never wished that on me. <p>He is paying much of the price of his stupidity and alleged love for OW. Yes, he thought he loved her, but when it all comes down to it, it really wasn't a love he was proud of or wanting to change his life for. And now he has. He never intended to leave our marraige, and the OW at the outset knew this. He never hid his marital status. But she didn't care. Sorry, just as my H ignored and failed our marital vows with me, so too did the OW. she willingly participated in hurting me , just as my H did.But unlike my H, she has never admitted it.<p>I would never have done to another woman what she has done to me. Never. <p>Now, the OW will probably get what she wanted. NOt my H, for he never wanted her full time and he and OW have very little in common, other than OC. I am divorcing him, and he has lost much. He probably will no longer be a full time dad to our kids, and not a better dad to OC. And for what? A selfish act by both OW and H. They have destroyed much, but read this clear, they are both responsible. That is what happens with A-many people are hurt-and I too am innocent, as our my children. We didn't deserve this from anyone, least of all the OW. But she didn't care either.

C miranda, I would like to see what you say when you tell your H of A and that child is not his. I think it will kill him. I know he is the father of your child in all the ways that matters, but he deserves to know.<p>you see, like you, I married young to the only man I knew. It mattered to me all these years that I was the only one he had been with, that I was the only one to bear his children. It took me a lot of years and pain and child losses to get the children we have. It did not come easy.<p>My H knows all this. He knows I may never forgive him for what he and OW has done.Both are culpable.But bearing the child and keeping the child were the sole responsibility of the OW. She made those decisions. MY H had no say in it, and when he expressed his say, the OW ignored his feelings. Not the way my H and I made decisions about having kids, when, to whom, etc.. <p>My H may wish contact with OC out of some distorted view of love or responsbility, but the fact also remains that he feels incredible stress and loss with the birth of OC. He knows he has taken much from me and our marriage. He knows and has said I was the only one he wanted to have children with. He wished OW would miscarry-he never wished that on me. <p>He is paying much of the price of his stupidity and alleged love for OW. Yes, he thought he loved her, but when it all comes down to it, it really wasn't a love he was proud of or wanting to change his life for. And now he has. He never intended to leave our marraige, and the OW at the outset knew this. He never hid his marital status. But she didn't care. Sorry, just as my H ignored and failed our marital vows with me, so too did the OW. she willingly participated in hurting me , just as my H did.But unlike my H, she has never admitted it.<p>I would never have done to another woman what she has done to me. Never. <p>Now, the OW will probably get what she wanted. NOt my H, for he never wanted her full time and he and OW have very little in common, other than OC. I am divorcing him, and he has lost much. He probably will no longer be a full time dad to our kids, and not a better dad to OC. And for what? A selfish act by both OW and H. They have destroyed much, but read this clear, they are both responsible. That is what happens with A-many people are hurt-and I too am innocent, as our my children. We didn't deserve this from anyone, least of all the OW. But she didn't care either.

I'm sorry that your life is falling apart. I don't wish bad things for anyone here. I responded to your post and my feelings on your situation are alittle different now that i know more abouthow you feel toward H. But I still wish you well in rebuilding your life. You seem like you really have your act together inspite of your upside down life right now.
As far as my situation and H,
If I tell him. After the last several days around here, I think sparing him from becoming as miserable as many of the people here would be the next loving step for me to take.
I was preparing to tell H and talking to mc. I don't think I'd feel much different regarding the opinions I have voiced here if H was told.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by goodandplenty:
<strong>...As BS's, I'm sure many of us have been in this position in high school, college, etc. with guys and their steadies. But we knew married or engaged men were off limits... </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Maybe, maybe not. I think all situations are different. It's according to one's individual values and level of self-worth.<p>A BS could easily become a WS, a single OW can easily become a BS or a WS, because everyone is vulnerable to affairs, regardless.<p>It is about values and protecting ourselves from our own weaknesses, whether married or single.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by goodandplenty:
<strong>...The sequence of events (usually)leading up to the OW bearing the child of a MM screams of indifference toward the wife and children of the marriage...indifference to downright aggression...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>While I think this is a bit overly generalized, I do see your point. I'm not sure I agree with "aggression" if you mean an OW deciding to keep her baby is an act of aggression toward MM and his family? What if OW deciding to keep her baby is merely an act of taking responsibility for her own mistake, endeavoring to do the right thing with the knowledge she currently has??? What if?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by goodandplenty:
<strong>...Yet many OW are surprised, based on the reactions on this board, regarding the indifference their child encounters from the wives...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I'm not and was not surprised that MM returned to his family to rebuild when the reality of my pregnancy was brought to the light. I'm not one of those to blame BS's for not wanting contact with OW/OC's in the least. OC can turn out healthy and "normal" without contact. Mine is a prime example.<p>I cannot speak about married people involved in EA/PA's and raising OC's with their spouses--although--I DO believe the BS in those cases DESERVES to know the truth, regardless. I cannot point the finger at anyone for lying to their spouses, because I know WHY we withhold the truth--fear of their reaction, fear of losing their respect, fear of others' reactions, fear of losing the marriage, FEAR, FEAR, and more FEAR!!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by goodandplenty:
<strong>...In other words, you couldn't be the bigger person for my child's sake, why should I be the bigger person for your child's sake? Because he/she is the child of the man I love?...but weren't my children the children of the man you loved?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Again, I think it depends on the type of affair and what lies the WS told the OW? Who knows? I don't agree that this should be the reason for BS holding animosity toward OP's. I think OP should be viewed as DANGEROUS to the recovery of the marriage. Period. Policy of Joint Agreement can cover areas like BS dealing with visitation arrangements, if any, to avoid OP contacting WS for any reason whatsoever... The health of the marriage is the primary focus, not the OP or OP's mindset, in other words...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by goodandplenty:
<strong>
We get no such satisfaction from OW, who in our minds trot off, leaving us laughing stocks, and 21 years worth of CS payment poorer to boot...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, the imagination is a tough thing to overcome! But I think that if the WS is busy about constantly reassuring the BS and securing the BS in their love, then recovering with all the triggers would be a little bit easier, NEVER EASY, but a wee little bit easier.

Hello BTDT,
I was surprised that you took issue with my post, being that you are usually empathetic with the BS point of view. It was not meant personally; however, it is what I feel towards the OW in my case, and it is what I witness as occuring in many more cases that my own.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>By BTDT: A BS could easily become a WS, a single OW can easily become a BS or a WS, because everyone is vulnerable to affairs, regardless.
<hr></blockquote>
Believe me, as a BS it is not that easy to become a WS. Despite ample opportunity, and despite my EXTREME post d-day vulnerablity, I never became a WS or MOW. Tempted yes(and it would have served H right [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) , but I chose not to act on the temptation. No one felt like more of a piece of [censored] than I did at the time, and an affair might have brought back some much needed self-esteem, but all I could see in my mind was the contorted, tear-stained face of his(any one of the men that I had offers from) wife. No way did I want to contribute to anyone's pain, especially pain with such far reaching consequences. In addition, most of the regulars here have not become WS, although many discussed having had offers. <p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>By BTDT: I'm not sure I agree with "aggression" if you mean an OW deciding to keep her baby is an act of aggression toward MM and his family? What if OW deciding to keep her baby is merely an act of taking responsibility for her own mistake, endeavoring to do the right thing with the knowledge she currently has??? What if?
<hr></blockquote><p>If the knowledge OW currently has is that her MM is single, and thus would be available marry her or coparent freely with her as two single parents, then both women were duped. If she knows he is married and is unconcerned with the negative effects on his existing family, yes, I believe it is an act of indifference. If she then goes on to antagonize the family, as I and many women here have experienced, in an effort to remain in his life in some form, or merely to punish MM for not abandoning his existing family, then yes, OW is guilty of aggression.<p>"In other words, you couldn't be the bigger person for my child's sake, why should I be the bigger person for your child's sake? Because he/she is the child of the man I love?...but weren't my children the children of the man you loved?"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>BY BTDT: Again, I think it depends on the type of affair and what lies the WS told the OW? Who knows? I don't agree that this should be the reason for BS holding animosity toward OP's.
<hr></blockquote><p>On this issue, I don't hold animosity against OW...on the contrary, she's taught me a thing or two. Whereas I was initially guilt-ridden due to my H's choice of no contact and how it would ultimately affect OC, after a long period of reflection, I realized that I needed to start behaving as the OW did in regard to her children, thereby refocusing all energies and loyalties toward my own children, as no one else, including the courts and peripherals, concerns themselves about the welfare of the children of the marriage. Again, no lie except the lie that H was single flies. <p>I've been impressed with the way you have handled your circumstance, as well as your many of your responses to those on this board. I hope we can continue to discuss issues.<p>goodandplenty<p>[ April 24, 2002: Message edited by: goodandplenty ]</p>

Oh no, no, no... no problems with your post whatsoever, just was reading and pondering and wanting to go deeper for more understanding. Trying to apply your truths to my situation and see where you stood on my thoughts. That's all...<p>I mean, let's face it, we all have a lot of life ahead of us--God willing, and I just don't think it's safe to assume what we would or wouldn't do in future circumstances. How many BS's never dreamed they would keep a WS around until it actually happened and they were faced with that choice. Things change dramatically when we find ourselves in the middle of a sticky situation--whether we brought it on or it was inflicted upon us by a loved one.<p>And OMiGosh, can you imagine IF one of the regular BS posters here DID actually go out and have an affair? Would they, could they, should they ever admit it here? You see some of that over on GQII, but many of those couples are not dealing with OCs. I think OCs give a whole different perspective on affairs. OCs and life-threatening STDs--two types of "infidelity residue" that never fade away.<p>That sounds terrible to put children in the same category of STDs, I know, but just making a point of how these are two types of permanent consequences of an affair--not just affairs, but sexual sin. God forgives us for our sins, but consequences and biology do not. <p>Further, single OW with no scruples like I was, have a totally different perspective once they can see life through the eyes of wifehood. I didn't think I was worthy of marriage after what I had done. I was Godless and clueless at the time of my affair--I don't think I could have been more lost than that!<p>Hmmm... I think you probably felt guilt re: the OC because you were already a mom with children of your own. Moms feel for children in pain. As a single OW who had already experienced one abortion, I was barely awake to realizing that I was carrying a BABY and not an "IT," just had no room in my narrow mind for MM's wife, children, and family.<p>Gladly, that attitude is far from me today, but I know I have lots more growing in grace yet to do. I don't have any place pointing my finger at anyone, yet at times, I find myself doing it. It's unbelievable that I would have the nerve.<p>I have to agree that to go after a MM with the intent of dividing his marriage by keeping an OC and flaunting it to spite the BS IS an act of aggression. Now I see what you meant. Thank you for this very thought-provoking post. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>