I know some of you have H's who initially had contact with OC or bonded with OC but after a time, agreed to no contact due to the needs of BS or the needs of what was best for the family. AS you all know, my H has had contact with OC all along, even before I knew of OC's existence. Last year, we agreed to no contact, but I didn't find out till 5 months later that H had stopped the no contact and had resumed contact with OC. He has continued to do so, albeit minimally, against my wishes. Now he has started to see OC on time primarily reserved for me and our family.<p>I would like to hear from the WS in these situations who gave up contact--for the good of family or marriage. What made you change your mind? What made the difference? ARe you glad you did? Do you have regrets? Why did you do this for marriage? Did your BS say anything that got you to realize this was necessary to save marriage and that family? Please, I hope some of you can give me something I can share with H.Thanks.

In my situation, my H knows about the OC and the A, and the MM I was envolved with knows about the OC. He was actually excited when I found out I was pg and that the baby could be his. Long story...anyway... after the birth of D, he left his wife for a short bit, which had nothing to do with me cause I was not seeing him and I had ended it all about 7 months prior to her birth. Eventually they got back together as they should have. My H and I have worked long and hard on our marriage and to overcome the A and he loves our D more then anything. The MM knows she might be his, but he has also been working very hard to repair his marriage. I havent gone for paternity or CS and see no need to ever do that. My D has me and my H is her daddy, and we love her very much. My H prefers that the OM is not a part of our D life. He is her daddy and always will be, nothing will change that. It just works out better for all of us with it being this way. Will we tell our D the truth, yes we will. She will know fully the situation at hand and how it all came down. My husband and I are the rock of love that will never falter in her life. And my husband is AMAZING for being able to love her as he does. Like I said, doesnt help in your situation very much, and with what you were wanting to know, but thats how it's worked for us. <p>It makes it harder since your H has bonded with the OC to not see the OC anymore. As a WS (I've also been the BS), but as a WS and having an OC produced from that affair, I know I am not like other WS, but the way I see it, what happened between me and the OM caused enough pain for his wife and for my H, I would not want to further that pain my imposing my OC in HER life when I know she could not deal with it. Since the bond has already been established between your H and his OC, would it be possible for him to see the OC on a limited basis, and with a neutral third party... so as that he and the OW dont have to actually physically see each other? If it was me in your shoes, I would deal with that better then I would with him seeing the OC behind my back. And because that bond is already there, it would be really hard for your H to break that bond, as he has already proven. If he MUST see the OC, that does not mean that the OC has to be around you or in your home, and that doesnt mean that he has to physically be in the presence of the OW to see his child either. Like I said, perhaps a netural third party could intervene there and be the one that brings the child to see him. But also, on that same note, your H needs to be respectful of YOUR feelings... which means, yes, with some type of 3rd party agreement he could see his OC, but he should still spend an equal amount of time with you and the kids he has with you. Hope that makes sense....<p>[ May 20, 2002: Message edited by: AnnLovesCharlie ]</p>

UW,
I wish I could have those answers also. From reading up on your history we are both at a similar stage of recovery. My d-day was about a year ago. The OC in our case are 4 and 10 months. After disclosing the facts of the A, H said he wanted to be involved in the OCs lives. I asked for a time with NC so we could do some repair on the M, but H went ahead with visitation, this was all before I had heard about MB and their principals. <p>H proceeded with the visitation of the oldest child, (youngest not yet born). I did not participate. It wasn't till almost Oct. that I became involved in visits, but not with the infant. My involvement with the infant started about 3 months ago.<p>I wish the contact never had started. I do not feel any affection toward either child, and wish we did not have contact, but H feels it is his responsibility to be a part of their lives. Like you, we are at the breaking point of our marriage. <p>So many complications, H and OW still working together, but that is coming to an end due to this A, H has lost his job (he was her boss). Still no family member of mine knows of this, or will they ever if I can help it. We both are in MC, but no real progress there, except as a place to vent. OW still doesn't understand the need to end friendship. She has no support system, and H was her support system for the past 10 years. <p>If you feel the need to chat off boards let me know and I will get you my email address somehow.<p>Tina

Hi UnhappyWife,<p>My H and I agreed to "no contact", altho he started secretly seeing both OCs. When I discovered this I too started participating in their lives as their step-mom. I fell in love with both OCs. Both boys, 7.5 & 8.5, had mothers that were pretty bad news. <p>But what occured due to contact with one of the OC was my H revisited the A with the OW (his mom). This OW was a ONS, she wheeled my H with guilt, sex and manipulation. It had been going on the entire time my H was seeing the OC, unbeknownst to me. <p>My H and I separated after a long Plan A and too much verbal harassment from ONS OW. I was no longer allowed to see her OC after the separation. Very heart breaking. But I still see OC #2 on week-ends. He's a wonderful child and his family (his mom as well) encourage it and are enthusiastic regarding my participation in his life.<p>I'd have to say that contact ultimately destroyed my marriage. I am now D. I subscribe 100% to Dr. Harley's recommendation of "No Contact". Contact with OC means contact with OW ... and it's too hard on the marriage regardless of how stable it is. JMVHO.<p>Here's a link to my story:<p>Click Here

UW,<p>I agree with Jo's endorsement of "no contact" when dealing with an affair. But your husband could still be involved in the OC's life. However, you would have to be willing to mediate the visits (in other words, you'd pick the child up and drop the child off). You might need an unlisted phone number, so that the OW could only contact you (via an "OW hotline cell phone"). You would need to be the intermediary between the OW and your husband for all childcare issues.<p>And not only would you need to do this, but your husband would need to demonstrate the honesty (and thoughfullness) to pull this off. It's certainly an option for you to consider, in the future. But there's no way your husband is ready for it now, given his current track record.

to all, thanks for your kind words. I hope to hear from more of you in this situation.<p>I must agree-I have watched these boards on and off for months. Many of you have attempted contact with OC. In many of these cases, attempts for visitation with BS or WS's family was truly heart felt and warm towards OC-something I frankly do not have in me for this child.
In just about every one of these cases, contact with OC was stopped and caused damage to the marital relationship, in some cases , irreparably. I note CD, gemini, zebra baby, resilient, etc, tryingforsainthood.You all tried contact, more than I ever could envision, and it hurt many in the process. I would love to hear how your husbands changed from contact to no contact.<p>I am so in agreement with annlovescharlie who really seems to understand, as the WS who conceived the OC, what wife of the WS would feel if knowledge of OC came to be and/or visitation was considered.She respects the sanctity of the relationship, at least now after a lot of damage was done. I certainly respect you for that.<p>In my case, once I knew of OC, my H had already had minimal contact with child. The time he spends with OC remains minimal, but minimal is too much for me. I agree with 3rd party-but I cannot see doing that. I cannot bear to hear OC's name, much less picking up and dropping OC off from visits.Worse, H keeps thinking over time I will change my mind-why I do not know. He doesn't really understand how I feel humiliated by his betrayal and conception of child. He knows he did wrong, knows he will fact humiliation, but feels he can handle that. But he doesn't seem to accept he has humilited me and my kids as well, and that also fuels my no contact stance. FAct is, for both me and H, OC brings with it too much pain, less than love, that every child deserves. H tries to act as if his feelings for OC are the same as our kids-but I know different. He admits he is stressed with all this, that OC;'s existence brings with it pain for him too. How can this involvement with OC be good for OC as well?<p>In my case, the OW does not care how I feel about OC or my involvement of my H. She doesn't care how it affects me or my kids. She just cares about her child. I wish ANnlovescharlie was my OW. My OW is not married, and I cannot help but feel she wanted my H"s child, and wants him as the father, at all costs to me, my family, my H and her child as well. <p>Right now, my H made decisions about contact without my support. IN fact, when I tell him I don't want it, he goes and does it anyway.Says I cannot keep him from his child. Yet, I tell him, perhaps not,but it does not mean I have to stay with him and let him stay with me. That his choices of ignoring my needs and wants, and his disregard of what his choices make me feel, devalues us, and devalues our marriage.That we do not have a marriage if he does what he wants.That if we have a marriage in name only, and we don't have things on the same page, I may as well, either stay and act like a single person, as he is doing, as he did when he started A, and date, or separate and see how that would be.<p>I don't know the answer.And yes, tina 71and resilient, I would love to correspond with you off board, if that is possible. WE are or have been in the same position.I cannot believe what my H is willing to throw away.<p>I sent my H a plan B letter telling him I would separate ASAP-no answer at all. I don't think he thinks I will do it. I am doing the paper work next week, will look for a place to live.Then let him see what it is like.

UnhappyWife,<p>If you'd like to email me, please do. I'm at work but will try and respond back to you ASAP

Lv,
Jo<p>[ April 24, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by unhappy wife:
UW,
I can understand what you say about feeling humiliated by your situation. I'd be hostile too toward someone who made me feel that way. I don't think I can ever understand your indifference toward oc. In fact, the competition (for lack of a better word) that you seem to have with ow also seems to be true of how you see oc in some respect. Although the points you make about the message oc receives from very limited contact with your H is so true. On the other hand, I have a pretty good idea of the ow perspective, and she is looking to put (I would hope, at least this is what I've done anyway) the child,not herself and her wants, first. That would also be ahead of the BS or any other adult, really. It is only natural that the child come before an adult, its just part of being a parent. I'm sure you can understand that being a mother yourself. But UW, I wonder, if your H were to come to you right now and say, look I thought about what you want and I'm willing to put my feelings toward oc aside and do what you ask of me so that we don't destroy our family, if even only for our children until you can forgive me. If this were to happen, do you really want to live with someone who feels forced to comply? Who isn't meeting his own needs as a parent? If this were to happen, it seems like a setup for H sneaking around again down the road. I hear you say you can't compromise your feelings on this no matter so with that, you may be much happier after your seperation and/or divorce. I just hope you consider not moving your kids away from their daddy if it comes to a divorce. Children always seem to be the ones punished in those situations and parents may be able to do more to spare them if they can put their own feelings of revenge aside. Just my thoughts after reading your post here.

C miranda, I don't understand why you don't understand my indifference to OC. I feel for my kids most of all, just as the OW does for her child. But, I care not what happens to OC. The OC represents pain beyond understanding, perhaps by you since you are the one with OC. I don't wish the child harm, just not involved in my life.<p>Frankly, the OW in my case knew my H had a family with kids he adored. She cared not that involving herself in an A with my H was hurting me and my kids. She was more than indifferent to my kids, she was HURTFUL!!!!HURTFUL! bIG DIFFERENCE.dO YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE? <p>My H admits his harm to our kids. OW has never done that. But she is as guilty as my H in this regard.She was not duped about his marital or family status. The fact is--she knew, and she didn't care. I don't think I owe her anything at all.<p>Frankly, my H admits he does not wish to hurt our kids or me anymore. That the OC does bring him hurt, and pain, and stress, unlike our children who just bring him joy and the normal hassles of raising kids. That is also a big difference.<p>Do I care if H gives up OC for me ? You bet.Even if he regrets it for the rest of his life.ANd you know why? He has asked me to forgive a multitude of sins-- years of infidelity, the birth of OC, lies, years of betrayal, breaking of our vows, breaking of fidelity, having a child with another, etc. He has asked me to accept all this and stay with him. That is HUGE-A LOT TO ASK FOR. OH, AND YES, ECONOMIC HARDSHIP AND ME HAVING TO WORK DUE TO HIS HUGE CS PAYMENT TO OC AND OW. <p>ALL I HAVE ASKED IS TO GIVE UP CONTACT WITH CHILD AND NO AGREEMENT TO DO SO UNLESS WE AGREE. tHAT IS NOT HALF AS MUCH AS WHAT HE HAS ASKED OF ME.<p>There, I said it. It is how many BS feels.<p>I know your H does not know your child is not his. In fact, you have roped him into being the father by not telling him.But trust me, it will hurt when he knows,and though I hope he continues to father that child, he will never forget how that child came about. Never. Spoken from another BS.

resilient, I will try and email you next week.What approximate area of country do you live? Unhappy wife

Ladies,<p>May I barge into this thread for a second? CM said something I thought very important to discuss. It is something that has destroyed more marriages than just about anything else and in the end hurts more children.<p>CM I am not picking on you. However, you stated something that is often said but I think is wrong. It is important for you to understand this if you hope to build your marriage, and I think when I finish it will help UW abit in firming up her thoughts.<p>CM said <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>and she is looking to put (I would hope, at least this is what I've done anyway) the child,not herself and her wants, first. That would also be ahead of the BS or any other adult, really. It is only natural that the child come before an adult, its just part of being a parent.
I'm sure you can understand that being a mother yourself. <hr></blockquote><p>The reality is that the marriage should come before the children. You see if the marriage is strong then BOTH parents will agree on sacrifices to be made for the children. If ONE parent decides that the children come before their spouse, then the marriage is doomed. Just as assuredly as if the H decides the work is more important than anything else in his life and justifies it by saying the family needs more money.<p>What is best for the children is that the marriage comes first. Many professional counselors and I believe the Harley's although I cannot quote you chapter and verse are now taking this view. Why? Because we have gotten beyond a divorce doesn't hurt a child.<p>CM, if you always put your child above your H you will lose him. My W almost lost me the same way. Most men that come to this board complain of the same thing. And guess what most W's that come here often complain of?? Their H's have put their work before their W and their children.<p>I think what UW is probably trying to say, is that in order for HER children to be protected and raised in a good home, her H must put the marriage first. If she ever became confident that this marriage was strong, my bet is that her H seeing the OC would not be such a terrible thing. But, until the marriage is made the first priority she knows her marriage and the happiness of her children are negatively affected.<p>I point this out to you CM because you are embarking on rebuilding your marriage. I mention it here because CM brought up that point, but I wanted to mention it to UW. It seems to me there is a possible solution, but it requires her H to back off of the OC for awhile and really repair the damage he has done to his own family. To date it is clear he hasn't done this. His family is negatively impacted by the CS and it is forcing the mother of his children to be away from them.<p>These are not good things and if UW proceeds with the divorce, there will be no winners, but UW will become a mother that isn't having her face rubbed in this affair over and over. Why is it rubbing her face in it? Because H has not put their marriage first as he should.<p>CM, please think about your priorities. I am not advocating leaving your child on someone's doorstep. I am advocating that a healthy marriage is good for your child and it isn't likely to occur unless you place the marriage first.<p>For UW maybe talking with your H about this, may help him see the light. <p>Must go, thank you for listening.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

I was just about to post the same as JL.<p>Marriage comes before the children. If all is right with the marriage, and the spouse's are successfully meeting one anothers most important emotional needs, then it would be natural that the entire family would be harmonious ... IOW, the children would be taken care of and nurtured as they should be. <p>All of Harley's literature states this and I am a firm believer of it. And altho I am not a bible banger, but I am Christian, I seem to remember somewhere in that big 'ole Holy Book it's says the same thing. First the Marriage, then the children.<p>Love,
Jo<p>[ April 24, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

JL & Resilient -
I do understand the concept of marriage needing to come first. But it seems to me at this stage of my life that there are children of divorced parents and children of parents such as UW's husband, who change the whole dynamic. I do see that if the marriage is good then the children reep the rewards of a happy family. But with OC or children of divorce, that may or can not be so. In UW case, she wants to resume a happy family life and wants/needs H to abandon his child. Maybe I'm thick or maybe I just can't understand how she feels, but I can't understand that. It appears more like she wants proof from him that OW and subsequently, OC, don't mean the same to him as she and their children do.
She and her H can align themselves together on this, he isn't turning to OW and wouuldn't have to continue to sneak, isn't that a good thing? Totally hypothetical, I don't really believe this would happen, but I would like to make a point. If (perhaps when) my H's told about our son's biology and he said he wanted OM to raise him and that in order for us to remain M, I had to comply to prove my love, to balance up what I expect him to live with, knowing about years of unfaithfullness on my part... To me that isn't about the M, it's about one half of it, one person. In this case the BS, who's looking to get their needs met and insecurities abolished. I can understand that, but there is the other half, who has a need to parent their child. I know that I can be stubborn, but I do try to keep an open mind here. I can't understand how UW can expect H to make a choice between a his own child and her. A childs needs are so basic. The love of a parent to me is more important than the love of a spouse. An adult can overcome that in my opinion. A child is scared for life.
If OW is out of picture, if H chose his W and not OW then what power can this child have? The challenge is certainly different if A involves an OC. But this goes back to what I said last week, and it got alot of people hot and angry at me, but isn't abandoning your own child just as sinful as cheating in the first place? Do 2 wrongs make it right?

CMiranda:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I do understand the concept of marriage needing to come first. <hr></blockquote><p>Actually, you don't appear to understand this at all. You go on to discuss children from divorce, children from affairs, single parents---these all stem from NOT putting the marriage first. And while there are success stories with kids from all the latter categories, the basic fact is that children from these categories have more problems on a whole then do children in a good marriage.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>In UW case, she wants to resume a happy family life and wants/needs H to abandon his child. Maybe I'm thick or maybe I just can't understand how she feels, but I can't understand that. It appears more like she wants proof from him that OW and subsequently, OC, don't mean the same to him as she and their children do.<hr></blockquote><p>What does UW really want? IMO, she wants a MB-type of marriage---one in which the basic concepts of CARE, PROTECTION, HONESTY, and TIME are met. As you can see, her husband has had an affair which resulted in a child. He's not paying much attention to any of these extremely important rules for a good marriage---he's doing pretty much whatever he feels like. Thoughtless, self-centered behavior. This isn't about the good of children---UW's husband isn't some poor moral martyr who's being crucified by a harpie-like wife when he's trying to be the best doggone father for all his children. He's just exhibiting the same behavior that he did during his affair. THOUGHTLESS. SELFISH.<p>I'm sure what UW would like is for her husband to change his tune. To prove that he can follow these rules, to use honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement to rebuild this very damaged relationship. To put the marriage first. I will dare say that UW (and most of the women in her situation) would probably seriously consider what you are advocating---a relationship with the OC---AFTER they repair the marriage in a real, tangable way. I'm sure a lot of them in UW's current situation can't even imagine it---it's not because they're heartless or cruel, but it's because they've suffered such marital abuse and STILL have husband's who are exhibiting the same behavior that they probably can't imagine their husband's turning it around and dealing with the marriage in a productive way.<p>But if UW's husband did, I'm guessing that this indeed would be a possibility. So, to get to the point where you want to see ALL the children taken care of---the first step is FOCUS ON THE MARRIAGE. And if you did that from the first day you were married, you'd have a lot less of these kids in precarious situations.

CM,<p>Finally we are getting to a productive discussion.
I would like to follow up on K's remarks. By the way, K has been/is where your H will be if you tell him. He is raising a child from his W's affair.<p>CM you said <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> She and her H can align themselves together on this, he isn't turning to OW and wouuldn't have to continue to sneak, isn't that a good thing? Totally hypothetical, I don't really believe this would happen, but I would like to make a point. <hr></blockquote> <p>It has happened that the H and the OW did after constant contact over the OC reignite the affair. Further, it is more common and seems to be true in your case there is indeed residual love, and caring for the OM. Exactly how bad a day will your H have to have for you to go back to start talking to OM again? How much consideration and comforting will it take for your love to blossom again? I don't know the answer and neither do you, but it may well be less than you think. <p>Well, put yourself in UW position. She doesn't know near as much as you know about yourself, because she is on the other side. So the only thing that will rebuild her confidence is her H focusing on her and rebuild the marriage. Then as I and K have suggested the idea of contact with the OC will not be so frightening. You see this isn't about the OC at all. It is about the WS and OW. Believe me the WS is more distrusted than the OW at this point. Everyone is pretty clear on what the OW wanted, but no one is clear on what her H (the WS) wants or wanted.<p>CM it is the uncertainty about WS's commitment that just kills people.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If (perhaps when) my H's told about our son's biology and he said he wanted OM to raise him and that in order for us to remain M, I had to comply to prove my love, to balance up what I expect him to live with, knowing about years of unfaithfullness on my part... To me that isn't about the M, it's about one half of it, one person. In this case the BS, who's looking to get their needs met and insecurities abolished. I can understand that, but there is the other half, who has a need to parent their child. I know that I can be stubborn, but I do try to keep an open mind here.<hr></blockquote> <p>The point of the MB approach is the both parties in the marriage must be in "enthusiastic agreement" about any decision concerning the marriage. Interestingly Harley even says this must be true about the divorce. It is not a one way street CM. If you are being made to make sacrifices you cannot deal with you shouldn't be in the marriage. I will by pass the Biblical issues of marriage and vows for a moment. But simply say in this situation only your H has the Biblical right to divorce and some (K for instance) would argue even against that.<p>The point is that rebuilding a marriage is not to be done on the back of the other spouse. That is why we are on you so much about your decisions. I don't mean the affair that speaks for itself. But, not telling your H. You are trying to rebuild a marriage on his back, at his expense, and based on his sacrifices. <p>From a purely biological standpoint he has a right to perpetuate his genes also. Let's face it that is why we all love babies so much. It is coded in us to do this to perpetuate the species. <p>If you rebuild this marriage it MUST be one that you both enjoy and want. Not a sham or one where you are made to make intolerable sacrifices. The part you haven't figured out about all of the venting here is that the BS's know they cannot seek retribution from their spouses. As much as human nature wants you to punish your spouse you cannot and maintain the marriage. These people are torn between there love of their WS, and responding in kind to the terrible pain they have been put through. But, they know the pain will fade IF both spouses work on the marriage.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I can't understand how UW can expect H to make a choice between a his own child and her. A childs needs are so basic. The love of a parent to me is more important than the love of a spouse. An
adult can overcome that in my opinion. A child is scared for life. <hr></blockquote><p>No, he is not going to have to make that choice. She is going to make a choice. She can divorce him and he can be truely what he is now; a part-time dad to ALL of his children, paying child support to both women. She has choices and frankly there is no reason to remain married to a man that doesn't love her or protect her. The same goes for you. Your H will have a choice and the odds are that he won't remain married to you unless he is convinced that you do love him and you will take measures that will protect him from this happening again. THat doesn't mean he has the right to abuse you or anything of the sort. It just means that you both have work to do. He to be someone you can love and you to be someone he can love.<p>This brings to my main point. <p>CM the love of a child is pretty much a given. What is not a given is the survival of a marriage. Now if you think that a healthy marriage and family life is good for a child, then it is clear that working on the marriage must be the first and primary focus. The child you already love and will take care of. It is the marriage that takes focus and effort.<p>So when we say the marriage comes first, it must be first in your focus of things to work on. That doesn't mean your love and protection of the child is second. It is a given. You will and do love your child. There is nothing anyone can do to take that away. Even when your child grows up you will love him, but you may not like him. So you don't need to work on loving your child, but you do need to focus and work on your marriage. THat is the point. <p>Is that clearer?? I hope so.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If OW is out of picture, if H chose his W and not OW then what power can this child have? The challenge is certainly different if A involves an OC. But this goes back to what I said last week, and it got alot of people hot and angry at me, but isn't abandoning your own child just as sinful as cheating in the first place? Do 2 wrongs make it right? <hr></blockquote><p>UW's H cannot abandon his OC. The courts are going to and have seen to that. He pays CS. The only issue is he going to abandon his other children and W? You see the OW is not out of the way and even if she is he has done nothing to show UW that is the case. Words won't work here, CM. Only deeds work. Her H has choices and she has choices. The best choice is to focus on the marriage rebuild it, and that will up the odds he can be more than a part time father to his children from UW and a part time father to his OC. <p>If he doesn't do it, he will be at best a part-time father to all of the children. I know you are going to say that UW should fall on her sword and just go with it for the sake of the kids. But, I would offer you an anologous (sp) question, would you give your son to OM and just visit occasionally. After all he has two other children so son can play with his brothers and sisters, they have an established family, and you will get to see him some times.<p>I somehow don't think you would entertain that suggestion for long. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] You are being robbed of something you love dearly. So is UW.<p>I do hope this helps, and I do have some idea of your fears. You have been here talking about hypothetical situations, because right now you are in a bit of a lull in your relationships. You are not dealing with the pain, nor the choices, nor the sacrifices that your A and having the OC will and have caused. OM is playing it cool. He isn't paying anything, his W doesn't know. You H is footing the bills for a child he thinks is his son. He doesn't know about your A. He doesn't know you didn't and probably still don't really love him. And you are thinking what is wrong with this?? It works for me.<p>The problem is that things change, some people have consciouses, medical emergencies happen, new affairs occur, life goes on. But, life has a nasty way or revealing these things, not necessarily this year, perhaps next decade, or several decades, but when it happens the damage simply gets more and more devastating. <p>You have choices CM. One looks painless, the other is definitely full of pain. Don't be deceived.<p>In any event I hope this discussion is starting to clear up a bit of what you read here and some of the advice you have been given.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by unhappy wife:
"C miranda, I don't understand why you don't understand my indifference to OC. I feel for my kids most of all, just as the OW does for her child. But, I care not what happens to OC. The OC represents pain beyond understanding, perhaps by you since you are the one with OC. I don't wish the child harm, just not involved in my life."<p>I think I don't understand the indifference because I cared in spite of my A, for his other 2 kids. That was a big part of why my A ended finally. Those 2 kids meant everything to OM. They were why we chose not to legitimize our relationship. Yes, we remained in the A and that long after that decision and it wasn't right. But empathy for children other than my own played a big part in it. He asked me if I could love his children and would I want to be a step mother to them. Hell, yes I told him. But then I went back to him with an honest answer. No, I couldn't love them like their mommy could and breaking up their family, we both agreed was not the right thing to do. That is why I don't understand. Those kids deserved more from their father.
If you want your H in your life and to work it out then his child is part of his life so wouldn't it make sense to open your mind up alittle? If you saw your M take a turn about and felt more secure and happy in it, then at that point I would hope the innocent child didn't threaten you as much as he or she does now. <p>"Frankly, the OW in my case knew my H had a family with kids he adored. She cared not that involving herself in an A with my H was hurting me and my kids. She was more than indifferent to my kids, she was HURTFUL!!!!HURTFUL! bIG DIFFERENCE.dO YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE?"<p>I do but then I don't. I just know for me, I didn't set out to hurt OM kids or family. The intent didn't exist. If you take on that attitude, you become no better than OW if you intend to hurt OC by hoping to withhold his or her father's love and place in child's life.<p>"My H admits his harm to our kids. OW has never done that. But she is as guilty as my H in this regard.She was not duped about his marital or family status. The fact is--she knew, and she didn't care. I don't think I owe her anything at all."<p>I agree, you don't owe OW a thing. No way no how. But supporting H in his mission to parent this child isn't helping her. Its doing the right thing by a child. I think this OW has made you feel like she is winning if H has part in child's life. Believe me UW, you won and OW has nothing on you. He wants to stay married to you. Don't let this woman turn you into someone that would make kids an afterthought if they aren't your own.<p>"Frankly, my H admits he does not wish to hurt our kids or me anymore. That the OC does bring him hurt, and pain, and stress, unlike our children who just bring him joy and the normal hassles of raising kids. That is also a big difference."<p>Don't let his ill feeling rationalize his responsiblities as a parent. I don't mean financial here, emotional. Children need to feel loved. Money can't buy love.<p>"Do I care if H gives up OC for me ? You bet.Even if he regrets it for the rest of his life.ANd you know why? He has asked me to forgive a multitude of sins-- years of infidelity, the birth of OC, lies, years of betrayal, breaking of our vows, breaking of fidelity, having a child with another, etc. He has asked me to accept all this and stay with him. That is HUGE-A LOT TO ASK FOR. OH, AND YES, ECONOMIC HARDSHIP AND ME HAVING TO WORK DUE TO HIS HUGE CS PAYMENT TO OC AND OW. "<p>I see your anger about economic hardship but there is nothing you can do about it if you stay m to him.
If you stay with him, yes, you will have to forgive him those failings. But by no means does scraficing a child justify your pain. It won't serve your peace of mind. It will only fuel your anger and feelings of revenge. You won't be one up on the OW or even on your H. You will have failed an innocent child forcing this "choice". It is bullish and mean UW and deep down I don't think you are mean person. Way past the hate and anger and HURT you are feeling, you aren't mean. Forgiveness will free you of your anger. But H has alot to prove to you and alot of love to show you. I do see that.
You are right to agree on contact but you seem adamant to me that you want him to have no contact. Maybe he perceives this as you won't ever let him see this child and he is afraid so he resorts to what us betrayers do very well. Serve our own needs and lie, lie, and lie. All I suggest is that there is another way, a better way. <p>I respect your feelings and I do think my h will continue to be a daddy to our son. He wanted a child and he is a great father. But I have alot of work to do to show H that I still love him. You have helped me see how vulnerable the BS becomes in these situations. I have so much to do.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>No, I couldn't love them like their mommy could and breaking up their family, we both agreed was not the right thing to do. That is why I don't understand. Those kids deserved more from their father.<hr></blockquote><p>CM do you see what you're saying? In essence the same as UW.
She cannot and does not want to "mother" oc. Her H should know it is not the right thing to do to HER.<p>We can argue this point forever and never agree.<p>Just agree that YOU love your c and UW loves hers.<p>Her H on the other hand will have to decide that UW is more important and their marriage, if it's to survive will have to take a front row seat over all c's!<p>Debi

CM, why don't you just let it go for now. Join the board again after you tell your H and son the truth. You will really love, and need, all the wonderful people on this board when you accomplish this task.<p>Until your H knows the truth, YOU HAVE NO IDEA!!<p>ember

CM,<p>I just wanted to say that the OM in your case is not being a father to his son. He has stayed away for the sake of his M and his kids. You see that UW wants.<p>Your H is being the daddy. Why can't OW find a man that is single to be OC daddy? What if OW was married like you would be o.k for UW H to stay away? Why is it for your OM to stay and not UW's H? Just because you have someone to be the daddy? You see OW knew he already had a family and did not care. If OW wanted a full time daddy then should not have gotten involved with a married man.<p>Childern can sense when something is wrong and if UW's H has these emotions when he sees OC. Then how is seeing the OC helping the OC?<p>Dawn<p>[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: Dawn71 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ember:
<strong>CM, why don't you just let it go for now. Join the board again after you tell your H and son the truth. You will really love, and need, all the wonderful people on this board when you accomplish this task.<p>Until your H knows the truth, YOU HAVE NO IDEA!!<p>ember</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I'm sure I don't have an idea about how UW feels and I've made no secret of that as i said that upfront to her. This isn't an arguement that UW and I are having. I am simply responding to her. I may not understand how she feels but I offer a perspective other than that of bs that hopefully will get her thinking about her M in a different way besides it having to be doomed if H doesn't choose her over oc.