I have been trying to read His Needs, Her Needs. I am really struggling with the book because it does not appear to be fair. I recognized our marriage right away in the book. There are a number of things I am guilty of that have contributed to our problems so I found up through the first 3 chapters of the book that I was very convicted about my behavior. As I continued to read I have still seen many things that I have done that have contributed to our problems, but I have also seen a pattern that just doesn't seem right without further explaination. In the chapter on affection it appears that I am supposed to find out what my wife wants in the way of affection and then give it to her even if it is uncomfortable to me. That seemed OK then we got to the chapter on sex and I assumed that since I was to meet my wife's need for affection then she would be expected to meet my need for sex, but the text seems to indicate that we can only do things that she wants to do and she wants nothing but the missionary position once a week between 7:00 and 8:00 at night. But I figure I have nothing to lose so I am trying to do the affection thing and hope that sex takes care of itself over time. Then I read the next chapter and it says that I have to meet her need for conversation and seems to indicate that I may have to give up watching sports in order to do that. Now that is a lot harder to do because I am a Physical Education Major, and sports have always been my life, and my wife knew that when we married and appeared to be supportive. Now in order to get 15 hours a week since she goes to work at 6:30 and goes to bed at 7:30 I basically have to give up all televised sports, but I was resigned to doing that until I got to the recreation chapter. Now I don't know what to do. Up until abouut 10 years ago we went camping, fishing, hiking, rafting, and my wife has completely quit all of these. I have given up everything except an occassional fishing trip and an occassional hike to take photographs, and even though I dearly want my wife to come she chooses not to. It isn't a matter of she can't do the physical stuff either. She runs and I have tried to run with her, but she doesn't slow down enough for me to keep up so she would have no physical problem doing any of the things listed above. She just has no interest. Your chapter says that we need to do our recreation together and I was thinking great, maybe we can go fishing together again or on a hike, and then your chapter says that I have to give up any activity that she is not interested in. That means giving up what little recreation I have left. You seem to be telling the men to do whatever they have to to meet the woman's need, and then telling the woman to meet the man's need, but only on her terms. Can you please explain lin greater detail? I had already given up rock climbing, rock hunting, scuba diving, basketball, volleyball, softball, and bowling leagues either when we first got married or later as it became clear that my wife was not interested. All she wants to do are things that are either hard work like gardening, or things that are boring like museums. she doesn't want to do anything with risk or adventure. Now you are asking me to give up all the rest of my recreation. I thought this was supposed to be about each of us meeting the others needs. How are my needs supposed to be met if I am supposed to give up everything that I like to do. It means that we will have no variety in our sex life and I will have to give up all outdoor activities except gardening which I don't even like, and while I am doing this I am supposed to happily meet her needs while you appear to have taken away my greatest interests. Help. I want to understand, and I want to make our marriage better, but I need to be able to see the fairness in this if I am going to be able to do it since so far she has made no comitment to meet my needs and you are telling my to give up everything I am.

Hi furball...

I have to tell you, I often call my cat furball, so I am picturing you with whiskers and pointy ears <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

OK, seriously. Just to be straight, you write as if you were writing TO Dr. Harley...the message board here is for discussion of all these MB concepts as written by Dr.H, but we are all non-professionals. Nevertheless, a lot of us have a fair bit of experience and I am sure you will get help.

Let me start by clearing up one issue. Harley does not suggest that you do things that you cannot agree to do "enthusiatically". Regardless of gender. Reading His Needs/Her Needs without reading up on POJA is a common mistake, and it can easily lead you to sacrificing too much.

The whole POJA is really the heart of MB, and it is designed to be sure you and your spouse can reach an agreement that you are both happy with. Doing things you will resent is NOT recommended.

Here's a link that has more info on using the WHOLE MB plan (not just the emotional needs part) and the POJA:

How To Use The MB Plan


Hope this helps.

Kathi

<small>[ June 16, 2004, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</small>

Thank you for your reply. By the way furball was our cat. I understand that the concept isn't for me to do things that I am not enthusiastic about. However it also is for me to not do things that my wife is not enthusiastic about. That is the point. she is no longer excited about any of the things that are part of my life. When I was in college everyone pointed to me when they wanted a stereotype of a dumb jock. I'm really not dumb, but my entire life has revolved around sports. I coach three sports. I played 4 sports in college. I still participate in athletics even though I am now 48. If I can't do anything that my wife is not enthusiatic about then I will not be able to do any of the things that I have done my whole life. I recognize that I don't have to do things that I am not enthusiastic about, but basically that leaves the choice of doing nothing, or doing what my wife wants even though I am not enthusiastic, or just ignoring the whole program in which case we won't fix our maritial problems. The book asks me to commit 15 hours a week to conversation. It asks me to find out what kind of affection my wife likes and then practice until I do that well enough to please her, and then it asks me to give up my recreational activities so that we can do recreation together even though it would seem fair that if I should do conversation her way she should be able to do at least one recreational thing my way.

Well, actually the book suggests that you commit 15 hours a week to meeting EACH OTHERS most important emotional needs. Not just to one need, or one person's needs.

Have you two filled out the questionnaires and gone thru them as described in the link I posted? You two should be working together on meeting each other's top couple of needs, and doing so with the other's guidance (not guessing as to what kind of affection she would like, but having her guide you). As for recreation, can you guys discuss and POJA some possible solutions? Like maybe you join her in gardening, and she join you in one of your sports? Or try something new together...have you guys tried to find soemthign that might interest you both?

And yes, it is perfectly OK to say "I'll do X your way, if you'll do Y my way"...but only if you both enthusiastically agree. So, if recreation is a big need of yours, and convo a big need of hers, it might make sense to come to some kind of POJA that "trades off" you meeting more of her need and her meeting more of yours. The key to POJA is brainstorming freely, and then sifting thru and finding possibilities you can both happily go for. Then see how it works, and adjust if needed.

<small>[ June 17, 2004, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</small>

Kathi,

Thanks for the reply. I think I understand how the program dos work. This weekend I tried what you said. I agreed to do a whole bunch of yard work, and she agreed to go fishing with me. I did all of my work, we got in the car and drove to a new place to try fishing, and then my wife got a lawn chair out of the car sat down on the first sandy place she found about 15 feet from the car, got a book and started reading. I couldn't fish and still talk to her. I tried to fish for awhile, but it would have been more fun to fish by myself, then be by myself with my wife. Also if I Kept fishing we wouldn't have been able to get our 15 hours of time in. It still looks to me like the policy of joint agreement just keeps you from doing the things that are most important to you because your partner is not enthusiatsic about them. This means that if my wife isn't interested no sex. Well guess what she isn't interested. It means that I can't play ball or go fishing because she isn't interested. It means that basically can't do much of anything because I have to admit that by the time we eliminate everything that I would like to do I'm less than enthusiastic about the other choices. I still don't get it. How am I supposed to meet her emotional needs in an enthusiastic way over an extended period of time if my needs are not being met. From her side she finally just told me after 23 years that she used to just hate sex, and now she only tolerates it. Obviously that means she is not going to be enthusiastic about it. At the same time she told me this she also told me that I am a good lover, and when she does allow me to touch her she has no trouble becoming aroused. But then she appears to get totally grossed out when she climaxes, or there are any bodily fluids. What am I supposed to do. So far all the policy of joint agreement has done is take away my recreation and sex. I don't see how that helps our marriage even though my wife does seem to be happier. Thanks for listening. Any ideas?

Hello, furball! Kudos to you for trying to improve your marriage. Its been a while since I read HN/HN but (as a guy), I don't recall such a strong gender bias.

You've received some great advice from one of the best. I consider Kathi one of the MB'er 'WiseGuys'. The one thought I wanted to add after reading what you've posted here is that I seriously doubt your wife has only 'tolerated' sex for all those years. My guess (as a guy married almost 30 years) is that her "Love Bank" is quite low. I'll bet that your many years of 'sports' has lead to her feeling like less of a priority in your life. I don't mean to stereotype here but it seems to be common that a wife's sexual desire is directly related to how well connected they feel to their mate. And if she feels like your secondary interest, imagine how that would affect her desire for you.

In addition to Dr Harley's books, I'd suggest you get one by Gary Chapman, The Five Love Languages. He describes 5 ways people give/receive love. If you do a great job of sending love in the 'wrong' language, the message may not get 'heard'. Learning your spouse's primary 'Love Language' will allow you to really fill up their 'Love Bank. IMO, the two books (HN/HN & 5-L-L) compliment each other.

HTH

I don't know if there is a strong gender bias in HN/HN or not. What I know is that I have to learn to be affectionate, and it has to be on her terms. Nothing that she takes as sexual in nature. I have to give up watching sports on TV so we can talk. Otherwise we can't get 15 hours a week of undivided attention because of my wifes sleeping schedule, we can't do any sexual activities that she doesn't want to do, and I can't do any recreational activities that she doesn't want to do. So from where I'm sitting I have to change my behavior, which is fine, I'm sure it could use some help, but so far I'm not seeing anything in return except that as long as I don't complain and act cheerful my wife is happy. As far as her only tolerating sex those are her words not mine. She was so tense when we got married that it was ten days before we had intercourse, and she told me this weekend that it hurt for the first year or a little more, but she never told me that because she didn't want to hurt my feelings. Because of that she has developed a bunch of rules for sex that become almost impossible to meet, so our sex isn't very frequent. Prior to this agreement once in awhile we did something like try a new position. Now because of the policy of joint agreement it is the missionary position or no sex. That would be OK, but I know that she will not get aroused in the missionary position. She can have orgasms, but she has never had one except if I give her oral sex , which she only wants about once a month, and she said this weekend that she has never been aroused during intercourse. That the only way she likes it is if the actual act of intercourse last 2 or 3 minutes, nothing more. I have to stop no matter how far along we are if I start to sweat on her, she decides what foreplay we do or don't have. I either enthusiastically agree to her demands or by rule we have no sex.

As far as me putting sports first we got married when we were both 25, and sports were and still are my livelyhood. She knew that then and willingly did things like fishing with me until we moved to Alaska several years ago. Since then even though we have moved back she no longer participates. This has nothing to do with her having no interest at all in athletics either. She runs five days a week, and when I tried to run with her she wouldn't slow down enough for me to run with her. She is an elite distance runner for her age, but I am 6'7" 225 pounds which makes it difficult to run distance really well. If I give up athletics then I have to find a new career. I teach Physical Education, and Coach. That's how I make a living. Since we have been married I have given up sport after sport until fishing and track are the only two I still participate in regularily, and instead of coaching all year I only coach 6 months out of the year. It's not like the sports were a secret to her. That's all I've ever known. Now appearently I'm supposed to give up fishing because she isn't enthusiastic. I understand how if she feels like she is second that would affect her desire, but she told me this weekend that she has never felt that kind of desire for anyone, and can't even imagine doing that. So it seems to me like I am giving up everything to make her happy, with limited chance of getting anything back in return. I know that this sounds pessimistic, but it sure was disapointing to work really hard for 4 or 5 hours doing household chores and yard work this weekend so that she would go fishing and then have her sit where I couln't even see her let alone talk. Am I really being that selfish to want to keep at least some recreation that identifies me as who I am. I want badly to do recreation with her, but it would be nice if it was something I really liked. Rafting, rock climbing, camping, scuba diving, rock hunting, golf etc... all went away years ago to make her happy. Is it really asking too much to be allowed to still fish at least occassionally?

Okay, I never thought I'd login to one of these forums, but your description prompted me. I am a happily married woman of 15 years to a man I dated for 11 years before we were married. He currently suffers from extreme chronic pain and we are managing our way through the morass of issues that presents for a couple. So I think I know something about passion and compromise. I know there are two sides to every story and maybe your wife would paint a totally different image, but I was stunned by the extent to which you have given up all your passions to please her. She sounds extremely selfish and demanding. It's so sad that she can't find enjoyment in your pleasure. You certainly should not give up fishing, nor half the other interests you've let go of in search of a more satisfying connection with your wife. The most successful relationships are the ones where each partner respects the personal autonomy of the other. She seems to have expected you to abdicate all of yours for the sake of her needs. You are already putting up with way too much. And I have to say that your sexual/intimate experience must leave you feeling so empty. If she would be willing, you should seek counseling, only if to convince her that you are not the only one who believes her views are unfair.

I haven't read the whole series of posts, but how much time are the two of you spending together to meet each other's intimate personal needs? That's what Dr. H focuses on in the beginning. The first four. Affection, Sexual fulfillment, Conversation, and recreational companionship. In that order. Also how much time have the two of you spent brainstorming about recreational activities the BOTH of you enjoy? He said the more time the two of you can spend together in ways you BOTH enjoy, the more in love you two will be with each other.
He makes affection #1 because without it there can't be sexual fulfillment. And also he states that intimate conversation and affection often lead to sex. Then he teaches to move on to the other needs. He says until then you have to wait on the other stuff; to focus on those first and a lot of time the other stuff will begin to fall into place on their own, and won't be nearly as big of a problem as they were.

He also states that you have to follow the POJA, but that will take practice just like the rest of it all. With out that no marriage will last long - at least not happily. He says on the topic of intimate conversation to avoid the enemies of good conversation - theis is all found in his books and/or on this site in some place.
Don't know if it has been much help, My spouse would not work with me an any of it. Even with Dr.H telling him what needed to happen. Needless to say not all people are willing to WORK at it. Mine always painted a picture that he was when he talked to Dr. H, but never followed through.
I hope better things await the two of you than has for me.
Today is especially painful for me, it's my birthday and I know there is no one there that even cares enough to say happy b'day.
My dad is dying with cancer ans every bit of everyone's attention is going on him. That may sound selfish, but it would be nice to know tht I mattered enought for a hug and a word or two.
God Help you in your struggles.
RMW
Also, if you would pray for me, I'm struggling to find a job so I can make pmts on my car and raise my daughter without leaving her alone too much of the time. One is available and I've been in, applied, but the mngr. of the store wasn't one to ,move on thngs quickly and he didn't send out encouraging notes. Without that job I know I'll end up with one (in this area) where my daughter will end up neglected. She's lived with a sorry daddy all of her life. And I don't have to tell her, she lets me know what he's like. I've had her and my son (prev. marriage) by myself since 89. Her father doesn't call her, she has to call him. He never gives her words of engouragement - only neg words. I'm the only thing she has left right now just like she's the only thing in my life right now. Please pray hard, I need that job. If I don't get it I won't be able to make pmts (187 per month) and then I don't know what will happen. I'm scared half to death in all of this alone.
RMW