H finally responded to my request to see Steve Harley. He says he will enter counseling,just not sure Steve is "right person." I told him we went to two counselors previously who he didn't deem "right'. He should decide whether to see Steve and see if he is right. NO pressure, but I hope he did it.<p>In the meantime, I finished my love busters questionaire and sent it to Steve, per his request. H says he will not stop contact with OC. He intends to do it on and on. He says he still loves me, hates to think I have lost my love for him and thinks I will end our marriage. It means very little to me what he says.Says he doesn't want me to punish our children and move them away from our area. <p>I told him-one, he needs to show me in actions what his love means.Right now it means to me nothing. Right now it means hurting me daily with contacts with OC. Right now it means he doesn't negotiate anything concerning OC because he won't. Right now, every time he does that, more love goes out window, to point the love well is pretty dry. NOw he is worried about doing anything fun with me because he is worried about finances. Yes, well, when you pay huge CS, that is what happens.This is what the next 18 years will look like? Yicch.<p>I have just about had it. My children are crying thinking I will move out of home, I am sleeping in a separate room and H doesn't seem to care, and my children are seeing how sad I am.<p>My own kids try to comfort me-not my h.<p>What is wrong with this picture?

UW:<p>The advice I would give you is to stick with Steve for a few sessions, to see how things progress. You might mention a couple things about Steve to your husband: he's extremely "pro-marriage", and he's very much an expert in helping people learn skills to build love, even when dealing with difficult circumstances.<p>You could also mention that a couple sessions would be a lot cheaper than the ER bill he's gonna have after you redecorate his face with the frying pan---but that would probably be a lovebuster... [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I understand how down you are right now---I'm hoping that with a few sessions, you'll have a plan to help you deal with some of this.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Right now it means hurting me daily with contacts with OC. Right now it means he doesn't negotiate anything concerning OC because he won't. Right now, every time he does that, more love goes out window,<hr></blockquote><p>UW I surely understand how his lack of empathy toward you has chiseled away at your feelings for him.<p>I hope he counsels with Steve.
Saying he's not the "right one" signifies that he wants what he wants regardless of how you feel.<p>You know what?
I think he should remember a time before he had children when it was you and H.<p>Remember all your dates together and happy do- nothing days before children. That is what will happen in the future {God willing} when the children are grown. If you D him, will he be more at peace?<p>He can't have his cake and icecream too!<p>To place importance of oc over your willingness to remain married is nothing but self-serving, just as affair was.<p>I don't care, it's like a spoiled brat who wants to have all the toys or go home!<p>Perhaps he needs an awakening. Plan B until he realizes his grave mistakes.<p>If he doesn't, then you will be better off on your own rather than making yourself and children crazy over something that may never change.<p>I hope he calls Steve. Maybe seeing it through anothers' eyes besides his myopic own will convince him.<p>I'll pray for your peace dear UW.<p>Let us know how it's going.<p>love
Debi

K,the frying pan is very close to me now. Maybe I do want to use it---no, just kidding.<p>
My h and I have had repeated email communication, some of it very painful. H has one referral for marriage counseling, and I suggested Steve.I think he may call him to see what he says. In the meantime, I shall wait. ANd make another appt. with Steve.<p>But, H intends to visit OC weekly and again during our family time in a couple of days, again without my approval. What this is saying to me-he won;t wait to negotiate, although I have asked him to wait until we discuss in counseling. I can't stop him, but as long as he does it, it pulls me farther and farther away.<p>This is very hard, thanks for your words K and gemini.

UW<p>I think that is a great step. maybe the rest of what you want will follow, you never know.

I am keeping you and your husband in my prayers and praying that Harley can reach him.<p>Catnip =^^=

catnip, I hope Steve gets to him too, but my H is very proud and says he has to live with himself, first and foremost.To him, that means being a father to someone he didn't want to have.
To me, it means being the father he was supposed to be to our children. AS I have told him repeatedly, he failed them as much as he failed me. Over and over.
Keep praying, all. I am hoping Steve works reasonable miracles in my life. For that, I would pay thousands.

Well gosh, you didn't make this an easy question, did ya????!!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Your husband is saying that the only way he can live with himself is by knowing the OC and regularly visiting the OC. So, he refuses to go along with your request for no contact.<p>In order for him to maintain contact with OC, he sneaks behind your back which hurts you very much, yet he repeatedly does it (so he can live with himself)...<p>If you guys implemented the POJA, you wouldn't be enthusiastic about him seeing OC and he wouldn't be enthusiastic about not contacting OC.<p> [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>He sounds like he wants to stay married to you. Meaning, he doesn't want the OW, just his OC.<p>What if Steve Harley asks you to step up as the go-between? I know, I KNOW!!! But at least you would not have to think about your H even seeing the OW whatsoever. And, he could visit the OC without your involvement, once the OC is picked up and delivered to him.<p>I know you do not want to do this. Believe me, I know your feelings on this. But what if, just what if--this is what it would take for YOU to be able to hold your marriage together?<p>I think at this point you have enough anger stored up inside for the whole A situation to stand up to the OW and face her off and be the presence that shows her your H is FOREVER off-limits and unaccessible to her. That would be redirecting the anger into a positive force. How powerful of a statement is it that you and your H are a TEAM?! And you don't have to be seriously mad about it because your marriage will still be intact? It's kind of like making OW face what she did--she hurt YOU and she needs to realize that you exist and you are just as involved in the consequences of her mistake as her OC without a full-time daddy.<p>But gosh, I know... it's a lot to consider, yet in the grand scheme of things, OC will NOT enjoy the privileges that your kids will and currently do enjoy should you hang in there and stick with your H as a team. Your kids get to live with their father, OC only gets to visit with him...<p>[ May 09, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

UW,
I really think our H were seperated at birth. I don't mean to make light of your feelings. I am going thru the exact thing at this point of time. I have the exact conversations. <p>As BTDT stated, and I feel it is true in our case, that H wants the contact with OC NOT the OW. He has gotten to the point where on his weekly visit he picks them up at daycare, so no contact there, and he drops them off at home, and I usually ride along. <p>I honestly feel that all the pleading in the world would not change my H's mind about OC contact, and over this past month our conversations have been very volital (sp). We have discussed separation, divorce, but always come back to "we want to remain married". Our D is getting married in 3 weeks and we are trying to put aside our differences just to get thru the ceremony. I do feel sorry for D, since this A, she has changed her dream wedding to a very private ceremony. She didn't want to have people wispering about her F through out her wedding. I hope I can make through the vows without LB to H as I have already done, "the vows didn't mean much to you did they"?<p>BTDT also makes a great comment about your C get get to live as a family, but OC only visit. I know my H has always stated that there is a definate difference in feelings when every day you wake up with your children and tuck them in at night. <p>I hope that Steve can reach through to your H. <p>Tina
Me 49 H 46
M27 yrs.
2 children 22 & 19
2 OC 4 & 1

I have offered to be the go between, by that I communicate to OW only via email and that I negotiate pick ups and drop offs with OW whereby she is not present when H picks up OC and drops OC off. He says he will let me do it. I see no reason why she has to be there, other than to see my H.<p>I cannot do the pick offs, etc. It hurts too much. I don't even want to see OC-who is a different race than us and screams " I am my mother's child." It is too painful. I can't even tolerate my H referring to OC as
My child or hearing him discuss OC's name, even in writing. <p>OUr husbands are much the same, Tina. I do not admire their attitude, because they slapped their original children in the face by their actions, and now make a big deal about doing the right thing with these kids. What happened to doing the right thing with their original kids-if they believed that then, the A never would have occurred.<p>Still waiting for H to set up an appt. for therapy. Then we shall see.<p>I sit and wait, sit and wait, and wait to file for separation.Some days I think that is the only way for me to move on and be happy, with my children.<p>[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: unhappy wife ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by unhappy wife:
<strong>...I cannot do the pick offs, etc. It hurts too much. I don't even want to see OC-who is a different race than us and screams " I am my mother's child." It is too painful. I can't even tolerate my H referring to OC as
My child or hearing him discuss OC's name, even in writing. Besides, our children are young, and I cannot go along for rides without involving them. Do not want to do that.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>What a [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] thing to program into a child, huh? Gosh! Everybody knows who's mom is whose? DUH! Just makes the OC even more unattractive to you. Why not teach politeness, manners and gratitude instead? OW can't see how much you have had to tolerate with her and OC in the picture? OW is not much interested in the well-being of her kid? To literally teach OC to go acting like a brat on visitations? REAL smart...<p>Well forget about separation for now. Your H seems like he is willing to work together with you and wants to leave the OW behind.<p>Maybe (through the court) a neutral p/u location can be arranged? Just a thought??? Might be a lot of trouble to request this, but in the long run would be worth it.<p>Hang in there as you make big strides to save your family and keep it intact. I think your H knows he screwed up royally. He sounds like he is trying to do his best and do the right thing by everyone.<p>Isn't it weird how some WS choose OW who are nothing (NOTHING) at all like their wives(?) Meaning: NOT even their taste??? What is up with that--I'll never know?!<p>In any case, your H has had the reality check of his life and I think that is what stopped him in his tracks. At least he doesn't want to pretend that OC doesn't exist. That's an advantage for the OC and a statement about a change in his character. I believe you will see the benefits of this change in the long run, perhaps not right now while your wounds are still bleeding, but after a while. I really do see him putting you first. Or else he could have just left altogether.<p>There are several BS stories on GQII where their WS is living with the OW. Stories on Divorcing/Divorced where WS MARRIED OW. These are all A's with no OC's. If your H loved the OW so much, he would be with her but he is NOT with her! That's definitely to your credit! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:
[QB]<p>What a [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] thing to program into a child, huh? Gosh! Everybody knows who's mom is whose? DUH! Just makes the OC even more unattractive to you. Why not teach politeness, manners and gratitude instead? OW can't see how much you have had to tolerate with her and OC in the picture? OW is not much interested in the well-being of her kid? To literally teach OC to go acting like a brat on visitations? REAL smart...<p>I think you are misundertanding what UW is saying. The child is not saying anything. It is what the child's looks are saying to the UW in her own mind. I may be wrong but I believe this child is only a toddler for goodness sakes.

MIranda, you are correct. I meant the looks of child communicates to me whose mother is the child's, as his coloring, skin color, eye color, etc. favor his mother, nothing like my H. That is what I mean.<p>Nonetheless, I feel more in control. H has yet to make counseling appt. but agreed to. I will wait to see if he makes appt. with Steve before I make another appt. with him.<p>Second, H agrees that he no longer will pick up child with OW present. Or drop child off either to her. I sent OW email detailing our new plan--no seeing h even for pick ups, need to arrange a 3rd party to do this, no emails to h, etc. I am anxious to see her response. and no more visits until we negotiate, in therapy, what is possible for both of us.<p>H sees I am giving in some, not all, and how he needs to do something for me.<p>Now, I know he doesn't want OW for life-in reality, he admits he had nothing in common with her or her world-she and he are so different, in all works of life-they would have never made it. He even admits she isn't very attractive-go figure. So, I don't fear sex with them, but friendship for H is very powerful and his friendship feelings for her turned into A and more emotional connection,<p>So, no contact at all. I don't want OW to think they can remain friends and be happy family. that ain't gonna happen!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by unhappy wife:
<strong>MIranda, you are correct. I meant the looks of child communicates to me whose mother is the child's, as his coloring, skin color, eye color, etc. favor his mother, nothing like my H. That is what I mean.<p>Nonetheless, I feel more in control. H has yet to make counseling appt. but agreed to. I will wait to see if he makes appt. with Steve before I make another appt. with him.<p>Second, H agrees that he no longer will pick up child with OW present. Or drop child off either to her. I sent OW email detailing our new plan--no seeing h even for pick ups, need to arrange a 3rd party to do this, no emails to h, etc. I am anxious to see her response. and no more visits until we negotiate, in therapy, what is possible for both of us.<p>H sees I am giving in some, not all, and how he needs to do something for me.<p>Now, I know he doesn't want OW for life-in reality, he admits he had nothing in common with her or her world-she and he are so different, in all works of life-they would have never made it. He even admits she isn't very attractive-go figure. So, I don't fear sex with them, but friendship for H is very powerful and his friendship feelings for her turned into A and more emotional connection,<p>So, no contact at all. I don't want OW to think they can remain friends and be happy family. that ain't gonna happen!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>UW,<p>I am happy to hear about your progress. It sounds like you and H are both taking steps toward negotiating and agreeing to compromise.
I think I can understand how you feel about oc looking different. That is hard to accept because if/when you and H and all children are out in public, you don't "blend" the same way, and you may encounter questions from people about his origin, etc. Hopefully as time passes and you become an expert and being the go between and other people in your family and town see you with your your kids and his oc, it will get easier. <p>I would bet that H appreciates you for your compromise on the visitation issue which was huge for you and now he can put his ego and pride aside, stop that power struggle going on, and will do the same for you by no contact with ow.<p>Its interesting what you said how H said ow isn't that attractive and they don't have all that much in common. Its a funny thing how the love bank seems to operate. I said often how my ex-om, although he is good looking, he isn't as good looking as my H. He may be in better shape physically, no extra anything, anywhere. But looks wise I often wondered why I felt such an attraction. He has a nice personality but some traits drove me crazy, like his selfishness. My H isn't self centered at all. UW, who the heck knows why, my guess would be that OP affect us on a more personal level, filling some void we have. I have no physical contact and phone / email contact has been severely limited lately. It helps tremendously is severing the need to have this OP in my life and I do believe very strongly that your marriage can be saved now that you agreed to support no contact with OW while still compromising on OC.
I'm proud of you for this big step because I remember how adamant you felt about not agreeing to it. Best wishes to you.

Dear UW,<p>Sounds like you have moved forward some since I was last able to catch up on this Board. <p>Since I have been in your situation, I know how you feel, but I have also come to understand your H's position from my own husband's explanations.<p>I agree with what several others have said -- your H does want your marriage to continue, but he feels a responsibility toward the OC. Please separate the OW and the OC in your mind. You have said that is hard because the OC is a different race and that is understandably a bigger reminder because the child looks very different from your family.<p>For years, I confused my H's desire to be responsible with his desire to have a relationship with the OW. He knew he made a mistake and he only wanted to make sure that he did not leave an abadoned child in this world. He saw through the OW and knew she had only gotten pregnant to force him to say. But, still his pride would not let him admit that to me.<p>It took many years for my H to say that he knew the OW tricked him and for that reason alone he would never ever have married her. Sometimes our wayward spouses seem to protect the OW's but in reality they are protecting themselves. They don't want to bare all of the stupdity of their situation in front of us either. For my H, it was embarrassing that he had been tricked by this woman.<p>If your H's need to "keep an eye" on this child is so strong, then that is something that I think needs to be dealt with. And, you are making steps in the right direction to reach an agreement that is not perfect for either of you, but a compromised position for both.<p>I cannot agree more with the statements above that your children have a far superior life to that of the OC's life with your H. That child does not know the constant warmth of being in a family. Your H is there for your children when they wake in the morning and when they go to sleep at night. Your family shares certain habits, traditions, and special times that the OC will never know or share.<p>But I do agree that, if your H wants to win your love back then he does have to make a special effort to put the marriage back together. And right now, for you, that means concentrating on rebuilding. Perhaps he would agree to a temporary suspension of visits to the OC until you are strong enough and confident enough in your marriage to stand those visits.<p>Perhaps if your H knew you were willing to work towards alonging limited contact, he would be more understanding of your feelings. Just a thought.<p>Keep talking to everyone here and especially keep up the counselling with Steve -- he sounds terrific and has a balanced way of looking at things. <p>Meanwhile, I am keeping you in my prayers and hoping that your H will also reach out to get the counselling he obviously needs.<p>love,
heavenly

up for uw!

heavenly, you make some good points. But, I remember when your H wanted contact. It was an unbearable thought for you. Have you changed your mind about that?<p>I cannot accept OC into our life.So what is H to do? have a separate life from me and our kids for the rest of our life?What kind of marriage is that. He has agreed no contact with OW-and for the first time, has agreed to block emails and have any commuication with her only go through me.<p>
That is a big deal. But I still don't want him to have the contact with OC that he is determined to do, with or without my consent.<p>
Every time I show him someone on board who has tried visitation, only to have it hurt the family more, in some way, he refuses to hear those stories. He so wants to believe our experience would be different. Why-I still am ashamed at the child's existence, I no more want that child in my life than a criminal, and I have no intention of welcoming the child into our cozy family. The child's existence pains me daily. Hurts me when he says the child's name. <p>Still, he is making appt. with Steve Harly, and i hope that helps.<p>We shall see. How therapy goes.

Unhappy Wife, I want to clarify what you are saying. In your other posting I thought you said you were willing to work with husband and have limited visitation decided upon by you? In this post my impression is your not wanting to have ANY visitation. I am confused. Please, don't give him hope for something your not willing to accept, because that will just make the situation worse. Maybe Steve Harley could help you in a session come up with a written list of what your expectations are short term and long term, so that your husband has no misunderstandings. I guess you could kind of do a list that had a "nonnegotiable" and "negotiable" section. I agree it's good to compromise but only do it if you can really live with the terms and then be specific about the terms with your husband so he has no room to say he misunderstood you.<p>I am sorry for being so longwinded with this. I just wanted to clarify the visitation thing and give my piece of advice regarding being real clear about your expectations.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>...I think you are misundertanding what UW is saying. The child is not saying anything. It is what the child's looks are saying to the UW in her own mind. I may be wrong but I believe this child is only a toddler for goodness sakes.</strong><hr></blockquote><p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I'm cracking up because you know??? After all the crazy stories I have read on the MB boards, I would not put it past someone to actually teach their toddler to scream and yell "I AM MY MOTHER'S CHILD!" LOL! I'm sorry... it's sad, I know, but not entirely unimaginable... *sigh*<p>Thanks CMiranda for the clarification.<p>unhappy wife how are you doing today? Are you okay? It's a new day... any new perspectives or thoughts? You have been doing a lot of thinking lately, I know. Old issue, new horizons... Be strong for your kids! ((((HUGS)))) ((((PRAYERS))))