I called H today. I said some awful things about exOW (Before you get too mad at me, read the Psalms from cover-to-cover. There are many Psalms in which the writer calls down the wrath of God on their enemies. Yes, I know Jesus came and gave us the new Law. I am human; I struggle.) <p>I called her all kinds of horrible names and said she was scum of the earth and that no woman should do to another woman what she did to me. What I really meant was that both of them were scum for years and he should have never done to me what he did. He said that she was an immoral person and so was he but that both of them are trying to live better lives now and do what is right by all concerned. He reminded me (threw in my face?) that one of my sisters and my mother have both done the same and do I hate them also? I said no, what they did was equally as wrong and disgusting, but that they did not hurt me personally. I fully expect that those men's wives may (justifiably) hate each of them as much as I hate her. I am really a mess about this upcoming visitation. I am sure that my grief over my sister's tragedies is leaking into the already difficult situation of Mr. J's first visitation w/o me. The fact that our boys are so difficult to handle right now is not helping. I am dreading 5 days alone with them. He has been doing such a good job of doing half the child raising. I make sure to tell him how much I appreciate it.<p>A couple of weeks ago when we were trying to arrange this visitation and it looked like my MIL was not going to go, Mr. J mentioned him going alone. I said no. He said at some time it would have to happen. I said no, it would end our marriage, that it is something I will never tolerate and if he feels the need to travel alone then he will be living alone. OK, I only said some of that but I told him it will never, never happen.<p>I asked how come he had made no reassurances to me that I had nothing to worry about. He said that when we planned this visitation we had no idea that our niece was going to be born so ill; that he would have done it at a different time if he could have. He said that with so much going on he didn't even want to bring up the topic of the visitation. He said he didn't know I was so worried and that I even had the bandwidth to worry about this right now considering family tragedies. I said that pretending that shytty things aren't happening doesn't make them go away. <p>He says he is deeply ashamed for what he had done and he feels like a real idiot for having to take his mother along as a babysitter (for him, not for Precious). I said "well, you have done some pretty idiotic things." He asked "Don't you know that I have learned my lesson?" I said, "No, I am not sure." He said "Please try to believe that I have and I will never hurt you like that again."<p>How do you know? He said he loved me all those years he was schtuping her. He gave me cards and brought me flowers. Nothing he does now is different than it was then, all those years when I was being duped. He sat by my bedside when I was in ICU after an accident and made deals with God that if I could just live he would treat me better. He went to confession and confessed his affair and promised he would never do it again. How do I know? <p>I told him that future visitations must include me. If that means the boys have to go and we have to travel on holiday weekends when the rest of the world is traveling then so be it. I cannot handle this even though I thought I could. I was wrong and I reserve the right to change my opinion.<p>With the boys being so needy, so full-time, we have lost any time for our own communication. It took me until 12:15 to get them to bed last night. We can't spank when that is all I want to do. I never thought spanking was good, but it ends the defiance and brings on the meltdown that they seem to need each night. (No one got swatted last night.) I will admit to a swat on the behind a couple of times in the past, but we are both making every effort to not do it. It is hard to give up something that gets immediate compliance. Well, maybe it doesn't get immediate compliance since a swat on the behind makes our younger son go crazy and start hitting and kicking me or his father. I don't think it is especially good parenting especially given their history of abuse. <p>I don't want this to be about force, but very often, physically carrying them from one place to the next is the only was we get through the days. They both got carried to the car and strapped in last Sunday for church. My children are not going to prevent me from going to church by refusing to get in the car. After 1/2 of "discussions" I picked them up and put them in. They cried but once we were moving they got over it.<p>Tonight they are going to bed in separate bedrooms and they are going to bed at 7:00 pm. We cannot allow them to interrupt the time we need, from 9:30 to 11:00 to have alone. This lack of sleep on their part means that they are absolute H-E-double-matchsticks (as Granny used to say) in the morning. So we have a tough night and a tougher morning.<p>Little guy never goes to bed anymore without quietly crying himself to sleep. He is working through his grief. This started last Wednesday night and goes on every night now. Last Wednesday he took out photographs of our dog who died while they were back in the orphanage. He wants desperately to sleep in our bed, but Mr. J is opposed and I think with good reason. The soft side of me wants to give in. <p>I want to be done with them by 9:30. I want a few minutes with my H and a few minutes to indulge my own needs. I want to provide comfort and be a mom when appropriate but I also want to remain physically and emotionally in a marriage to my H. I am sure that last night was a response to my having been away for 3 days. H says they, especially the younger boy, were asking for me all the time. It was our first separation. Now Mr. J goes away on Wednesday.<p>I am seriously losing it.<p>MJ<p>[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: MaryJanes ]</p>

MJ,
I know I have a different situation as you, but seems alot of MB ers are busy and I owuld like to tell you I understand all to well what you are going through..
My daughter was adopted when she was three.. she spoke no english and had been through severe mental and physical abuse, she would have tantrums for hours and I do mean hours, this is not an exageration.. I dont like to spank, but have but you cant spank a child who has had broken limbs and been beeten, it means nothing that little swat on the but, she would looka t me like.. and is that all you have!? and she was serious.
some days I cried my self to sleep and other times, I called my sis and said please come get her, because I am angry and I dont want to be. Now I am a patient loving parent.. but this poor little 3 year old girl was testing my limits, she was scared and angry and didnt know where she would be next, so many had given her away before,
If she was bad enough would we do the same.She tested us daily and still does sometimes,
There is a book called transforming the difficult child that is a blessing in it self, It has made us come so far in family situation, she is a pleasant child now, she stil has those moments, but they dont last 6 hours. She still has to handled a certain way, but it works, and we have come so far, I learned to lover her, just like my other children, she is now a blessing and I cant imagine life with out her.
But she made us work for her love that is for sure..
I dont want to bore you and I know it isnt the same sittuation, but I wanted you to know it gets better. and my thoughts are with you.
You are right about your feelings concerning visitation.. you do what you have to d to protect your marriage,
good luck and It will get BETTER,

Thanks Mo5. I didn't expect to be dealing with adjustment issues, H's first visitation w/o me and a critically ill child in the family at the same time. I do my best to now borrow other peoples' tragedies. (For example, I prayed for the families affected by Sep. 11th, but had no grief reaction of my own.) However, this child is close enough that I feel my sister's pain and I have my own.<p>I wonder if she hates me like I hated her two years ago. She had her first daughter the day after I learned of Mr. J's affair and child. My mother hounded me to call her and congratulate her on the birth of her first child. I was furious at her happiness in the middle of my tragedy. My mother also told me that I couldn't tell my sister what had happened to my marriage as it would spoil her need for a "perfect" time. I told my mother if she kept trying to force me I would get a gun and kill myself while on the phone with my sister. (Obviously I didn't and I get a better hold on myself.) I calmed down and called my sister a couple of days later. I explained why I hadn't called earlier. My sister and I have always been very close. I have 6 sisters. I am only close to two and we share everything. My anger at my sister's happiness faded in a couple of days. So D-day and the birth of her first child are all mixed up in my emotions and still a source of great confusion.<p>Now, my happiness at finally becoming a mom to these boys whom we were separated from for 20 months is tied up in the birth of her desperately ill child. I want to emphasise that I am very, very happy to be these boys' mom. I wouldn't change my decision for anything. There are lots of very good times between the struggles. I am not worried about bonding. This is not a bonding issue but a testing limits and over-stimulation issue. I wish that life were not always such a mix of joy and tragedy. I wish I weren't stretched so thin right now.<p>Actually, a swat on the behind does bring the situation to the weepy conclusion that seems to be necessary. They will not quit the defiant behavior until they have been brought to sobs through a swat (and I do mean, one and only one swat through their clothes) or by the removal of every privilege for the next day. Removing one or two does not end the stand off and while this may be about grief or other things it is absolutely being manifested as a power struggle. I am considering holding therapy for full-blown tantrums. <p>I remember that you adotped a non-English speaking child and had all the language issues that we are having. Did Social Services know you spanked? Did they consider it abuse?<p>Thanks.<p>MJ

MJ,<p>I'm sorry that I can't offer you any advice with the boys! All I can offer at this time is prayer for their adjustment to their new/old home.<p>What I do want to try to help you with is Mr. J leaving for visitation alone, and your feelings regarding trust in that situation. Well, I had the same feelings when Sailorman was getting ready to leave for his deployment 7 months ago! See, the last time he was gone, I wasn't the only one being unfaithful! Although with Sailorman, it was just for sex! I had a hard time dealing with wondering what would happen, and if I should just blindly trust that he had changed. I found that when I would dwell on it, I would become depressed, but when I would give those feelings up to God, I would have a calm about the situation. <p>I know that Mr. J's A was more of a 5-6 yr double life(think I have the time line right), so that is a little different. But, you have to think to yourself, after everything you have both been through, the pain he's seen on your face regarding Precious and the A, do you still think that he would slip back and chance seeing that pain on your face again. Not only that, but you have the boys now too! He would not only be hurting you, but just be adding to the boy's already painful lives! <p>I wish that I could offer you something bigger, but I think that your trust should first be in God, let Him take this worry from your shoulders, give Him your fears, and just let it go to God. <p>Hope I helped in some way.<p>Love,<p>Tigger

mary,
Our child did not come from over seas, but we went through the home studies and back ground checks and all of the above. tHE BIBLE SAYS SPARE THE ROD SPOIL THE CHILD. So I believe god does think we should spank, however I dont like spanking , never have never will. Yes I would say social services, know we spanked I do remember them asking us, however they also spoke with our other three children privately I would guess they asked them as well,
We use this book and its practices religeously,
IT is about dealing with behaviors, and instead of making such a big deal out of bad.. you praise the good, if you see them put something up. You say wow, I sure appreciate you helping like that; Or if you tell them to do something and they obey you; you say thank you for listening.
If they are sitting there coloring, you notice; wow you are being so good coloring while mommy is working.
Now I know it all seems silly at first.. and you have to notice every thing, little things, soon the learn that they get all this wonderful praise and attention and will do nice things just to hear your praise.
when they are out of control there is a special way to hold them untill they have regained there selves.
when we use time outs, time out is over as soon as she sits quietly and has regained her self, then I say, k you may get up now and I am glad you are feeling better. <p> Now when I started this my teens thought it was nuts and made fun of it.. but they are not stressed out any more over her behavior. so it does work. there is a web site called the nurtured heart approach, please look at it and do some reading.
Very interesting and teaches you so much about children.
another plus I was stressed to the max trying to reach this sweet baby who needed us.. and thanks to the nurtured heart approach I believe we reached her.
The language barrier was not near as difficult as you are having, some of my children had learned spanish in school and helped me with that, and she was three, she learned quickly.
I have many siblings as well. and am close to two more than the others. I also dont share my private life much with family, just the way i grew up I guess.
I can understand both sides of the coin in dealing with this OW , I guess Because I have been both, I think you should be there for your husband since you are in this together, but you have to bbe there for family because this is more important. Your niece being so ill, is hard on all. Maybe the visit could be cancelled, and done another time, after all this is such a hard time for your family.
Remember to rest when you can , and take care of you, and have a family member or helper .. help you with the boys once in a while.

The added stress make it hard to deal with children adjusting and going through so much, you have to help your self so you dont stress your self out, and frankly there is nothing wrong with taking medicine, I take something every day to help me deal with stress.
It helps. <p>Please look up the site and do some reading, cant hurt, even if it isnt the right approach for you. I had read the book, but untill i saw a demonstrationa and saw this speaker in person, I wasnt so sure. <p> here is the link <p>http://www.difficultchild.com/

I don't usually post here... but I saw your topic title and was 'drawn.'<p>My MIL is a social worker and we discuss how hard foster parenting and adoption is... expectations rarely meet reality. (I am the mom of 3 boys (8-6-3) and bedtime can be an absolute NIGHTMARE... my H and I took a class over the summer on parenting the strong-willed child... it was a GREAT help. (We are in So Cal).<p>I would look for some 'resources' in your area regarding adoptees and surviving the transition ... SUPPORT is what you need... you may find a group to help. Church? or Friends you can call to help? Adopting just one child is difficult... but two is extremely brave... especially when your emotional resources have taken a beating...<p>You absolutely need time to yourself! So I hope that you find the resources to help you with re-directing behavior, I know the class and support group helped me. My fantasy of what my life with children would be only came true occasionally and I thought there was something wrong w/ me... When I learned some techniques to use... it wasn't my fantasy... but it was close...<p>I went Internet searching for resources and came up w/ this website...<p>I hope it helps.<p>Children's Bureau Express <p>I also get a newsletter from ivillage's Parent Soup... parent soup <p>Cali<p>[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: Cali ]</p>

Momof5,<p>I was very interested in how you loved your adopted child until she loved you back. You are truly a special person Mom and MJ, and anyone who choses to love a child and give them a family of their own.
Your plights are fascinating. I don't mean to interrupt this thread, but can you tell us more of how this child came to you?
I've been thinking about adoption. Its only a thought, but I've seen programs about abandoned and abused children and my heart just breaks. We would like to have another child.<p>It sounds like both you and MJ are dealing or dealt with typical struggles that we all have with our children, but with your adopted children, there are more emotional issues that compound the typical problems?<p>CM

Hey you,
So much is going on in your life right now and having the boys is a big adjustment for every single one of you.<p>Was thinking, maybe the boys can snuggle with you on weekends when things are calm? It might help with bonding a little. I remember sleeping with my parents as a small child and it was the most safe, comforting feeling ever! It might actually help! They probably would need affection and closeness more than regular kids at this point... (?)<p>You're not losing it. You sound like a "normal" mom to me! Well, that is, if I'M normal!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I remember my twins got their first "sting" at around 6 months??? Rebellion is easy to recognize early on. With special needs kids, parents tend to cater to them because of their disabilities too, I noticed. They really try to "work" us! So it can be emotionally exhausting--esp. on PMS weeks. OMIGOSH! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Interesting how you have sort of switched places with your sister. She might be having just a teenie little distraction and can't totally share your joy right about now... I guess that is why God's word tells us to rejoice with others and cry with them too because we never know when the situation will change and we will need someone to share in our situation--good or bad...<p>I'm praying for your family. Just take one moment at a time. Cast all your cares on Him for He cares for you. We are not equipped to carry the burdens of life. We are only human. We all have "residue." We all need The Redeemer. (((HUGS)))

MJ<p>The adjustments are incredible, aren't they? And the stress of all these new changes in your life can cause us to say and behave in ways we never thought we would, don't they? Just when we think we are OK and have everything resolved, we are shocked to find we are still working on the stuff we thought we had all figured out.<p>My step son, who is now 32, came to live with me in 1980. I was ill-equipt to raise a boy that was so complicated and in so much pain. He was such a challenge and so damaged by his bio-mom's rejection (he was four when she left), he was completely distrustful of me. He took out all his rage, pain and all his frustrations out on me. He refused to allow himself to love me or allow me to love him because, I think, he believed that he was somehow being disloyal to his bio-mom. He also was trying to adjust living in a new state away from his Grandmother and aunts, uncles, cousins and everything he had ever known and loved.<p>It wasn't until he was in the military that he came around. He realized I wasn't the monster he thought I was and realized I was the one who never left him or abandoned him. One day he told me he had a lot of shame for how he had treated me. I felt so badly he wouldn't allow me to show him the love he so desperately needed. His life could have been so much better, more peaceful, more joyous...it makes me so sad to think back on how miserable he was.<p>Looking back, I can't think of anything more I could have done to make him feel more loved and cared for except insist my husband be more proactive in talking to him about these uncomfortable issues regarding his bio-mom, or forcing her to visit or call the kids occasionally. My step daughter was only two when she left and wasn't nearly as attached and made the transistion to me very well. She allowed me, and even craved, my love.<p>Today, my stepson is a successful senior computer anaylst, is the best dad I have ever seen with his four year old daughter and he and I have become very, very good friends. He always calls me to discuss important issues and he never forgets me on Mother's Day or my birthday. He had a very hard and rocky road, but it wasn't for any other reason than his own sadness at leaving his home state, so many new adjustments, feelings of abandonment and unwillingness to risk being rejected by another mom. Understanding where they are coming from doesn't make the journey any less difficult, but it does help enormously to know in your heart that these needy kids do come out of it, whole and successful and close to you when they are grown.<p>In your case, you are not replacing a woman who has abandoned their father or them so hopefully there is no resentment issues for them. They probably are feeling a little homesick...not that what they left was so idyllic and wonderful because it wasn't, but because it is all they ever knew. Most of these issues will work themselves out in time with consistency and all that incredible love you have for them. And someday, when they are older and ready to leave home and go out on their own, they too will appreciate and realize all you and Mr. J have done to make their lives so much more than what they would have been.<p>As far as a swat occasionally, you need to establish your 'alpha' position because they need that to feel secure. A swat doesn't hurt them...it does more good than bad...spare the rod and spoil the child, the Scriptures say. Besides, it really does hurt us more than it hurts them.<p>You're doing a great job, MJ. And a great thing. The rewards will one day blow you all away.<p>Catnip =^^=

Catnip!<p>I don't know how I missed your posting a couple of days ago. Thanks for all the warm affirmation. I am starting a new thread to discuss behavioral stuff in kids.<p>Wow! I didn't know that you had taken on the raising of your step-children. I knew that you had step-children but didn't know that you were such an involved parent with them. I am so glad that you have such a strong relationship with your step-son.<p>MJ