fh,
I know what you mean finacally. We saw two conselor and did not seem to get much out if it. What about medication? It might help.<p>Dawn

FH,<p>I know this is going to sound weird, but you need to define YOUR boundaries. If you don't want sex, then don't do it, but when you do want sex make darn sure he knows you want HIM. Do you see what I mean??<p>FH, I'll be candid with you as a male and married at that, what you have done is the worst possible nightmare of most men. I puzzle how I could hang in there as Pops has done, and certainly cannot believe that I could do what people like K have done. BUT, having said all of that, YOU need to stand your ground here. You have made some grave mistakes but you are not his slave, you do not have to do everything he says. WHAT YOU MUST DO IS BE THE BEST PERSON THAT YOU CAN BE, AND THAT MEANS SETTING YOUR STANDARDS AND LIVING BY THEM.<p>I realize you want to make it up to Pops. But, what both of you must realize is that you cannot make this up to him. Both of your lives have been changed forever, no matter what happens in your marriage. The only issue left is how to live one's life in the best possible way.<p>So I will restate this. NO demand that Pops can make of you will make him happier. Nothing you can do will change what has happened. You both have to deal with this. Counseling if possible would have been the best, but I do recall your post about your counselors, and understand what you are saying, plus the money issues.<p>So what is left? You cannot control Pops, but you can control you. You have to decide what type of marriage you want. You have to decide what type of life you want to live. You have to decide where your boundaries are. THEN, you need to communicate them to Pops. Only then can he decide what he wants to do. My bet is that you haven't gotten control of yourself well enough to truely do this yet. <p>Recovering from the affair, being pregnant, post partum issues, and then your H not sure he can handle what has happened.<p>FH, that is a lot on your plate. So stop, take stock and decide what you want in life.<p>As for the divorce, you cannot stop Pops if he wants to do this, BUT you can dictate what you will tolerate once you are divorced. I live in CA but I don't know that his salary will be taken into account, please find out. YOu can do this over the web I am sure.<p>FH, I know both of you are hurting, but I think you need to begin to get some control of things. I suspect the diet is a good start. Hey, I'm dong the same thing right now. Trying to regain the "boyish figure", fat chance at 57. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] But, I am trying to lose some anyway.<p>So I would recommend before you two do this that BOTH of you go to the lawyer and really talk with him/her about all of the options. <p>FH, Grace has only been her 6 months, so recovery of the marriage has really only begun since then. Up until then your H has had NO options, the few recommendations he made were rejected. My bet is he feels he MUST make a decision about this now, or his chance will be gone forever.<p>I realize you would like him to stay, my bet is he would too, but I suspect that he feels the need to explore the options now. So go to the lawyer with him, or simply make an appointment yourself and take him with you. You are the other half of the marriage FH. You can drag him to a few things too you know. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I truely hope something I have said helps, and if Pops reads this maybe something I said will help him as well.<p>God Bless You and Your Family,<p>JL

full house sorry to drop in on this. have you thought of compensation for your behavior. I followed pops anguish for some time. I know you are hurting, but honestly you deserve to hurt. I believe pops attempted to cause you to stop this feel good, psuedo christian mentoring with this guy long before it came to this. pops came accross as a very decent man , a man who tried, you missed the last boat when you backed out of adoption. and adoption can be a god send for children in such situations. I believe you are a selfish person, or you would have at least given pops that one thing. the young man you befriended? is ethnically different? that the little girl might be obviously not his has to be a loss of self respect for pops. its not the little girls fault. children need all the love they can get in this old world. I hope she is loved and loved forever, but you murdered pops spritually. and sometimes resurection is a lot to ask for. promising to never hurt him again is not enough. you hurt him enough that it will last his lifetime. can you honestly blame pops if he divorces you? another question, can you say to pops that he is free to see other women and live with you. no questions asked and that you will never step outside of marriage again? could you do that, by way of compensation? how strongly do you want him to remain in the family. I remember pops as such a decent man and in such agony that I felt for him. I hope for the best for both of you. that might be divorce since you refused him the last request . that being giving up the child for adoption. and adoption is a wonderful thing for so many . God bless you and entire family

full house sorry to drop in on this. have you thought of compensation for your behavior. I followed pops anguish for some time. I know you are hurting, but honestly you deserve to hurt. I believe pops attempted to cause you to stop this feel good, psuedo christian mentoring with this guy long before it came to this. pops came accross as a very decent man , a man who tried, you missed the last boat when you backed out of adoption. and adoption can be a god send for children in such situations. I believe you are a selfish person, or you would have at least given pops that one thing. the young man you befriended? is ethnically different? that the little girl might be obviously not his has to be a loss of self respect for pops. its not the little girls fault. children need all the love they can get in this old world. I hope she is loved and loved forever, but you murdered pops spritually. and sometimes resurection is a lot to ask for. promising to never hurt him again is not enough. you hurt him enough that it will last his lifetime. can you honestly blame pops if he divorces you? another question, can you say to pops that he is free to see other women and live with you. no questions asked and that you will never step outside of marriage again? could you do that, by way of compensation? how strongly do you want him to remain in the family. I remember pops as such a decent man and in such agony that I felt for him. I hope for the best for both of you. that might be divorce since you refused him the last request . that being giving up the child for adoption. and adoption is a wonderful thing for so many . God bless you and entire family <p> I was so shook I forgot to add my comment.
I could be off path here, but was this meant just to hurt this woman who is already hurting.
She made a mistake and I dont think compensations should be oh I made this mistake so you go sleep with whoever and I will wait patiently for you. what KIND OF GARBAGE IS THAT?
She didnt give her baby up for adoption, because while that is a great choice for some, she did not have it in her to give this life she created away, just like some people do not believe abortion is a choice in thier life, neither is adoption.
I am sorry pops is hurting but I dont think lashing out at this poor woman who is also hurting deserves to be hurt.. and if she wasnt hurting already, the affair never would have happened.
Your points are meaning less, and are doing nothing but try and tear down a woman who already knows she made a mistake and asked for forgiveness, and pops forgave by remaning married.. he chose to deal with it.
I am sorry this is mean and has no point.<p>[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: mom of five ]<p>[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: mom of five ]</p>

mom you are off the track here. its not meant to be mean , but to force some objectivity. if people do not recognise situations for how they really are then their efforts will not help much. full house must focus on pops if she truly wants him back as a loving husband. all too often people respond with feel good words and dont get to the real problems. again this was not to be mean, but to get full house to try and do what pops would have her do. as I said god bless them all

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by full house:
<strong>
1. pops let me know that the joint agreement is not going to be, he says i have made too many mistakes with out consulting him (meaning the A), so i really have no say in the decisions now, plus even though i dont want to do the divorce, he says he doesnt need my agreement on that, he can get one without my consent.<p>2. so i guess i am the one now with no choices. our life has gone into a total reverse. everything is in his hands, i just need to cope with all of my feelings, and like alot of you have said trust him in this. <p>
3. he took a trip to laughlin in our motorhome by himself--when he came home he confesses to me that he had been thinking if the opportunity had arrived he probably would have had a PA, but he didnt. he says he has been getting angrier and angrier the last couple of days. <p>4. plus the fact we are having horrific financial problems which just makes everything more magnified.<p>5. even though he doesnt tell me he loves me, he still wants to make love (or have sex every night) <p>6. This is hard for me because i love him so my emotions are overwhelming and i hold back.<p>7. he did tell me that if i didnt come to bed with that in mind than i was not to sleep in the same bed with him. is this asking too much, is cuddling not ok. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Dear Fullhouse<p>1. Those are the words of a person in the Anger Stage of the process after discovery. Sometimes these stages get all mixed up. I know the first stage is shock and bargaining, disbelief, denial, et al. Then comes sadness...the grief that takes your breath away. When the rage comes, it is a scary, scary thing because of the damage it can do to something already so fragile. But, many here, if not most, survive this stage. What Pops is saying is true. He doesn't need your agreement or consent, but then he is not practicing the MB principles if this is the case. It seems to me the things he is saying are designed to hurt you, or retribution, or empowering himself by trying to call a shot or two. He is probably feeling so low and so powerless that he probably thinks the only way to regain some of that power is by telling you how it is going to be..like it or not. Patience and understanding is the key here, FH. Wait for this stage, this unpleasant and scary stage to pass, and try to Plan A best you can.<p>2. Go ahead and trust him in this, FH, but do it wisely with your eyes wide open realizing that this could go the other way at any time and prepare yourself for that possibility. However, creat your boundaries of what you will and will not accept and stick to it while entering into a full blown Plan A.<p>3. This is so typical. Many of us do similar things...I did. I went to lunch with some yutz I picked up in a bar because he went on and on how beautiful he thought I was. I was so desperate for validation, I gave him my cell phone and when he asked me to lunch, I accepted. Lunch was the beginning and the end of that romance. <p>These are just desperate attempts to have someone tell us that we are hot, gorgeous and wonderful...what is so incredibly disappointing is that it is so much harder to find someone as easily and as attractive to us as our wayward spouses were at finding their affair partner. I even made up a lover that never existed and created an entire persona for him to make Bipolar jealous. This was pre-MB and I didn't know any better. The weird thing was is that it worked. Bipolar was terrified, insanely jealous and it felt good. I wanted him to think I was experiencing and feeling the same things he did with her, even if I wasn't. I didn't like the idea of him having a hot time with someone else while I was some chump enduring this humiliation and rejection. Someday I will write about "Jack"...you'll die laughing.<p>4. Oh God! Finances are the death knell of romance and love...and we all seem to have a great deal of financial hardship around the time of the discovery...it all goes so hand in hand. So predictable. Obviously, Pop's heartburn and vengeance and "pay up" attitude toward XOM is based on bucks or the lack thereof. It is certainly a motivation to make him pay even though I beleive this is the worst thing to do. If I were Pops, I would insist XOM pay a lump sum and disappear and wave the monthly amount. This way he would get his symbolic "settlement" and still be able to get XOM out of your lives forever, hopefully. He could even suggest if a lump sum is paid, then XOM's wife need not know...wait, that's blackmail...nevermind.<p>5. That is very, very typical as well. The demand for constant sex is a way to stake out territory, reclaim what is yours, reconnect, purge any memory of XOM out of your lives and feel closeness. Most of us here have experienced this phenomenon. Personally, I loved it.<p>6. Then, don't hold back!!! Don't hold back, FH...let it rip. Go for it. It will be kind of a Plan A in bed. That kind of passion is so powerful that that alone could change his mind about leaving you for someone else, could help him get over his anger towards you, could help him heal, could help him and you feel loved again, help you reconnect. I would use this gift if I were you. You've got nothing to loose and everything to gain.<p>7. He is just being jerky. It will pass when he softens up and knows he is the one you love, he is the one you are devoted to, you are willing to give him your all. Try to ignore the power trip. It's probably just his way to feel in charge and in control, something that was taken from him and he is driven to gain some control back.<p>Well, I just love mouthing off and telling people what they should do and tell pweople my perspective on stuff as if I live in your house and know exactly how everyone feels when i really don't have a clue. So, take what you need with a grain of whatever and leave the rest. These are just soem ideas and opinions and sometimes we are too close to the subject to know what to do about anything so we all stay frozen too frightened to move, and opportunity passes us by. Don't let that happen to you. Whether things work out with you and Pops is still out there somewhere with fate. All you can do is do whatever you can, so regrdless of what happens, you know you have done everything you could to make amends and help him, and you, heal.<p>Good luck, FH...you and Pops are in my prayers.<p>love<p>[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: catnip ]<p>[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: catnip ]</p>

i will respond to all and ask for your patience as i may skip around and have to make several posts as my typing is so slow.
my anger towards om is actually towards all op who knowingly persue anyone who is married. i feel the selfishness of these individuals is such that they do not deserve a place on this earth. the that is caused by yhese actions does so much damage and destroys so many lives that it makes me see red.
yes i too thought of haveing an A as a form of revenge towards fh but the fact that i would become the kind of hipocrit (sp?) that i felt she had been stopped me. if i were to have an A it most definately would never be with a married person.
wib,,, i never said that there would be no communication between me and om if i were the go between.i said it would be at a minimum. i still believe it is his right to provide financial aide, 1/2 health care and have his visitations and that is it. it will be fh and my decision as to where she attends school, church etc. talking will be simply about medical issues. illnesses, medication times, she's been running a fever, alergies, etc. he will be resposible for eating and sleeping schedules while she is with him.
mj,,,, i would never be a vindictive type of person in a divorce situation towards fh. i have personally experienced a mean and minipulative ex girlfriend who used her son as a wepon to try and hurt me. i would never use a child to hurt an adult. i understand what it is like to pick up your child when he is crying franticly, i understand what is is like to take the sheriff with you to pick up and drop off your child to insure their is no violence, i understand what it is like to pass by his empty bed when he is away, i understand how it hurts them to have to leave when they perseave (sp?) that the other parents house will be more fun that perticular weekend, i understand when they get to be tenager and their life is so busy they have no time for you, i understand when they move into being a young adult but are angered at you because they still don't completely understand what happened to their life and i understand what happens to them when they see their idea of a tsable family explode with something like this.
you see i have already experienced this and admire those who are working through this with their own ex's and making a relatively calm life for their children. but a word of caution, please be aware as you never really know what is buried in your childs mind untill one day they grow old enough and brave enough to honestly speak their piece. and as many people know sometimes that comes late in a persons life. you may assume things are peachy and then your well adjusted child can blind side you with a brick of anger you never saw coming.
catnip,,, you are right about the penalty part in some respects. that is not and never has been my sole motivation for seeking cs as those who have read my previous posts will know.
i will have to send this now and address some more issues a little later,
pops

mj,,, i don't feel moving is tha answer as i believe that a persons problems follow them where ever they go. i did consider this in just moving back to huntington beach about 20 miles up the road just to put some distance between myself and this crap. the crap would follow and my kids would be uprooted from their friends so i quickly came to realize this would be a bandade on a broken arm and not the answer.
the trip to laughlin was not made alone. the trip was planned for my new son in law (1 month at the time of the trip) and his best friend to enter a custom harley in the bike show there. he spent one year building it and had very high hopes of winning the contest. we were going to tow the bike behind our motorhome but it was raining the day we were to leave so they rented a van to protect the bike from weather. we followed each other up and all 3 of us slept in the motorhome. we arrived at around midnight on friday night entered the show and left for home around 5pm saturday evening.
t4j,,,, please, i am NOT looking to have an affair. you can find an old saying to fit all situations. not that i am believing this one but how about "what's good for the goose is good for the gander."
i have never forced fh or any other woman to have sex with me and i am not forcing her now. she is in no way my slave and as far as the old saying thing goes "she has as much rope as she wants now, even enough to hang herself if she pleases." i have asked her to be the one to start the intimacy more often as i feel that it has always been myself who filled this role in our marriage and i wanted to know that she felt that way about me. that she wanted to be with me in these kinds of ways. she has said that she thinks like that all day when i am at work so i asked her to show me with her actions and not just tell me with empty words. that more then words now it is her attitude and her actions that speak loudest. sure i love making love to my wife but if i am always the one initiating it as has been the practice of our life together so far how am i to ever know what she wants. after all she told me that she was sexually satisfied 90% of the time before the A.
my opinions on the POJA are that to this point that priciple has not been practiced where i was concerned so although it is a very sound principle it is not in my best interest to practice it at this time. i am not trying to bash her here but none of this mess has come about through the POJA. my ageeement was not sought out for the decisions that have been made in my life for the past year. call an attempt to regain some sort of power or whatever you want. but it is jus me at this time.
jl,,,, i will not put myself on meds now or never and to the contrary i actually believe that fh may be better served by them. her own sister has told her that for a couple of years. my anger is most likely due to the fact that as you say i have come to a cross roads. the problem is all roads lead to pain right now. after dealing with this for a little over a year now and reading this board for about 6 months my advice to anyone asking me would be to cut your loses and move on. now i know that all situations are different but in general that would be my advice to someone. my problem is that if i move on i split up my family and i still know i love fh but have some things i need to work through.
as for her physical presence i have told her that i would like her to get back into shape again. i feel that i loved her for 21 years however she was because it was due to her having 6 children for us. she gave up her girlish figure to give me a joy i didn't realize 6 times over. then when we decide no more children, i get snipped, then i watch her get back down to va-va-voom for the first time in 20 years, for some other guy, who she gives it up to and i get my out of shape wife back again from his baby. why can she be motivated to look good for a stranger and not for her husband?
joell,,,, i must say this again i am NOT looking for an A. i understand what you are saying that would she be able to except the fact that i was bumpin ugly's all over town and just sit back and accept it. but please would you try to use a little more compassion while making your point?
yes we are very tight to the wire right now with our finances but we have been there before and i have always been able to pull a rabbit out of the hat and i will do it again. please believe me that cs although it most certainly would help it is in no way the road to my retirement.
more later, good night for now,
pops

Pops, I appologize. I took "minimum" communication to mean something like "here she is, I'll pick her up in 3 hours". Thanks for clarifying for me. As for the major decisions (school, religion, medical care) being none of his bussiness, I truly hope you are right as I think that would be best for you and FH. In my case I did not give the right to have say in these matters to xOM out of the goodness of my heart. Where I'm from it is the LAW. It sounds as if you haven't talked to a lawyer yet. Please do. Many of the things you are concerned about may be invalid.<p>[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: want it back ]</p>

pops:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>my opinions on the POJA are that to this point that priciple has not been practiced where i was concerned so although it is a very sound principle it is not in my best interest to practice it at this time.<hr></blockquote><p>From your taker's short-term point of view---the POJA is never in your best interest. But you're going to hurt your marriage if you continue down this path, making selfish decisions that don't take your spouse's feelings into account. You and fullhouse have a pretty narrow window for marital recovery here. If you continue to neglect the POJA (which is one of the most important recovery rules---the other is radical honesty)---fullhouse is very likely to withdraw to the point of being vulnerable to another affair (although with the severe damage from the last one, it's unlikely she'll actually go down that path again). And you want to throw the OM right back into your family via child support and visitation.<p>Not really smart.<p>If you haven't done counseling with Steve or Jenn---do so. You've got a lot of marital issues that you need to deal with. I'm not going to tell you that you're some kind of saint for staying with fullhouse after this betrayal. You have my admiration for trying---but you need an effective plan to do this, and I still don't see one in place. You have no excuses---I'm telling you directly that without a real plan in place to rebuild your marriage, where both you and fullhouse will feel like valued members in this relationship, you will fail. And if you fail, it WILL affect all your children.<p>Don't fail. If you can't do this on your own, with the counseling resources that you've employed---then get some help from Steve or Jenn. And do it this coming week---I don't see that you have a ton of time left here.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by K:
<strong><p>1. You and fullhouse have a pretty narrow window for marital recovery here.<p>=^^= Au contraire, K. I disagree. What other spouse on this board has the gift, the luxury of having the other spouse here as a regular poster? I believe this doubles their chances at recovery and that their presence here is laying the foundation and understanding for reparation. The anger Pops is feeling is simply his "anger" stage, which is predictable and normal. It will pass if FH dries her tears, focuses on Pops, meets his Emotional Needs, including getting back into shape, and is making the big efforts necessary for his healing. She has the power, and the duty, to fix things. She can't do it if she is all caught up into her own self pity, but I am fairly confident that this is a temporary stage as well. They both are learning the policies and principles of the MB philosophy, and once they both embrace and live them, there is nowhere to go but up. They BOTH have to do their part, and once they are both over their grieving stages and their anger stages, perhaps they can put down the defenses and move ahead. One word of caution, Pops...it took Bipolar Bear almost 3.5 years to get through his self sabotage (the "I'm not worthy" phase), but then, he is mentally ill and is struggling with a lot more than what he did to ruin our marriage. So, patience on your part is necessary to bring FH out of her malaise...so she can believe that working on this will be worth it and that she knows you will not leave her if she does these things. <p>2. If you continue to neglect the POJA (which is one of the most important recovery rules---the other is radical honesty)---fullhouse is very likely to withdraw to the point of being vulnerable to another affair (although with the severe damage from the last one, it's unlikely she'll actually go down that path again)<p>=^^= Pops, K is right...you cannot let her withdraw. Not for the reason K stated because I believe what you two have endured is a lot like "aversion therapy" and I am confident that FH would never ever do what she did before under any circumstances unless she thought you were all done with her, however, if she withdraws from you because she is feeling unforgiven and unloved or hopeless (and you have the power here) then the end result will be a pissing match where neither is willing to meet the other half way.<p>3. And you want to throw the OM right back into your family via child support and visitation.<p>Not really smart.<p>=^^= Ugh. I agree with K completely, Pops. I would think you would thank God and Greyhound if the XOM vanished from your lives completely. Having him involved in Grace's life on any level would be constantly reopening your wounds over and over again. It doesn't cost that much to raise a child, Pops, especially when the price of XOM involvement far exceeds any monetary pittance he would be paying you. Unless you are "fortunate" enough to really, really hurt him like our CS amount really, really hurts us, then the suffering you think you are causing him is minimal. I would think your satisfaction would come from having Grace and her mother and not allowing any contact...that to me would be the best revenge, if this is your motivation. I get a lot of satisfaction (I am leaving myself wide open here for being hateful and vindictive here) out of the fact that my husband hasn't had one shred on contact in any form since January 1999. The OC was born in August 1999, so OW went through her entire pregnancy alone, the birth alone and is raising OC alone with no acknowledgment. And, as mean as this sounds, it gives me some satisfaction. But then, she is getting us back big time where it hurts the most...in the pocket book and with inconvenience and stress. I would have been more charitable if she wouldn't have gone to such extraordinary lengths to put the screws to us, but...<p>
4. If you haven't done counseling with Steve or Jenn---do so. You've got a lot of marital issues that you need to deal with.<p>=^^= Oh, this is such outstanding advice, I can't tell you. While I have not counselled with them, I have heard ringing endorsements from those who have...after all, they are the authors (along with God) to this site...if you are looking for hope and resolution to these issues, I would start here.<p>
5. I'm not going to tell you that you're some kind of saint for staying with fullhouse after this betrayal. You have my admiration for trying---but you need an effective plan to do this, and I still don't see one in place.<p>=^^= I guess my big concern here is that while I completely understand and empathize with your feelings and justifications, I worry that you may be wielding your power in a misguided way by refusing to incorporate the Polict of Joint Agreement with FH as a punishment to her for not going along with your wishes to put Grace up for adoption. This doesn't just hurt FH, this hurts you as well. By not entering into a POJA, you are sabotaging your recovery...but then, I am sure you know this deep inside and just need time to get through this resentful stage. you know and have the recipe for recovery and you know what you need to do for recovery...just don't wait too long. You have made your point...while you are entitled to throw your weight around and rake some control back, don't play the game too long and screw yourself over in the end. <p>
6. You have no excuses---I'm telling you directly that without a real plan in place to rebuild your marriage, where both you and fullhouse will feel like valued members in this relationship, you will fail. And if you fail, it WILL affect all your children.<p>=^^= Amen.<p>7. get some help from Steve or Jenn. And do it this coming week---I don't see that you have a ton of time left here.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by pops:
<strong>
i will not put myself on meds now or never </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Oh thank God, Pops. I am so relieved to hear you say that. I have become so tired of hearing everyone advocate drugs to numb themselves.<p>Drugs are necessary in extreme cases where it has been diagnosed by several specialists that someone's brain chemistry is out of whack and they could be a danger to themselves without it, however, just getting drugs to get through life's hardships is just delaying recovery and stunting emotional growth.<p>I think drugs are a bad, bad idea and believe that one has to feel their grief full force in order to get rid of it sooner and move onto the next stage. Sometimes it works for people short term, but often it becomes the perverbial crutch. It's hard to work on anything if one party is zoned and zombied out.<p>The passion that comes from keenly feeling everything, good and bad, brings resolution. I am so glad you aren't taking that easy way out, because I think you know in the long run, it is ultimately harder.<p>Catnip =^^=

Hello FH & Pops,<p>I just wanted to say that both of you coming here says a lot. I can see that both are you are hurting now. I just keep thinking that it will get better with time. <p>In my case, the OC was born in October and that is when all the issues came up for me.<p>I am in the angry stage of recovery. I just can't believe that my H would do this to me when I needed him the most. I m/c just about six years to the day that my H had the PA and I was told that I could lose the baby that I was carrying.<p>So, I understand pops anger. I just keep thinking that it will get better with time. And if I could afford calling Steve Harley I would.
If you guys can afford it I think that you might benefit from Steve.<p>Have you talked to a lawyer? Do you know that Pops income will be consider in CS? I don't know what the laws are in CA.<p>FH, I understand your fears about divorce. We talked about divorce too to protect us. We did not go that route. I kept thinking that once it is in paper that he might leave for good. You just have trust pops. Of course, that is easier said then done.<p>I was just wondering how your childern are doing? If they can see the hurt and anger between you guys?<p>Dawn<p>[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: Dawn71 ]</p>

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=fam&group=04001-05000&file=4050-4076<p>pops,
some info that might help you.
I hope you will reconsider divorcing full house. I know your angry and this is hard, but this will effect all of you deeply, your wife and your other children and yes even grace, your bringing a man into her life, that your you and your wife do not want there.
He will have a say in her education, church, everything, if he is going to pay for her support, the courts will give him that right. I am not sure I know every thing, has paternity been established, I think fh said graces bc was blank in place of fathers name. DO your other children no what is going on and what is this doing to them?
Does the other man want to know grace.. if he doesnt will he be willing to sign away his rights and let you adopt her, i think i read you have six kids.. no one has six kids with out the ability to love them. So adopt grace as your own and move on with your life together.
I just think there must be other ways to work this out, and while the way we have done is not for every one, and not with out faults, it does work.
I would consult a lawyer with your wife, if you are just doing this for cs reasons, that way you aare both partners in this and it wont feel like you are trying to punish fh.
God bless

Pops,<p>I apologize for jumping the gun about the possibility of you having an A. Of course, I only had what FH had typed, and her fears to go by, and should have waited for your input about this. I have followed your story closly, as there aren't many here that are in this reversed situation from the majority here. I do want to say that I am happy that you realize what damage it would do to you and your M, and will leave it at that.<p>I also will not beat this drum to you anymore, but offer my prayers and support that you and FH can make it through this trying time! I know that the main reason that Sailorman and I did not go the CS route is we never wanted to see the jerk again! He's never found out about the pregnancy, and hope he never will, but if he does, he loves his wallet way too much, and we could continue to keep him out of our lives by using that against him. Do check out the laws re: visitation and CS before you take any drastic measures.<p>Again, I offer my prayer and support for you both!<p>Love,<p>Tigger

pops. you are right I need to be compasionate. my intention was straight talk and not the wishy washy stuff which usually fills up the board. it came out sounding mean . I apoligize to full house. my question to full house about could she give you the right to go out bumping ugly as you put it wasn to suggest you do that. I don't believe that would do anything but create more problems. it was just to find out . does full house love you enough and want you enough to accept that from you. since you have to accept it from her.. can she tolerate getting back as good as she has given. not that you should do that . I read K comments with amusment. k says that you had better do better soon or full house may have another affair/then contridicts her/him self by saying she will never have another affair given what happened to her over this. can anyone think clearly on here. also K will not say you are a saint for staying, pops I will say it you are a saint. raising a house full of children. and if you stay you are a saint for staying. there is a lot of expense in raising chidren and many on here seem oblivious to that. get every penny you can get from this jack leg. my guess is he will fade out of your family circle quickly. expecially if when around he is made to feel very unwanted. pops trust yourself in this. you come accross as very decent and sincere. you have through all of this and I ,for one , admire you.

Hey Joell<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I read K comments with amusment. k says that you had better do better soon or full house may have another affair/then contridicts her/him self by saying she will never have another affair given what happened to her over this. can anyone think clearly on here.<hr></blockquote><p>I believe not only do you have to think clearly, you have to read clearly...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If you continue to neglect the POJA (which is one of the most important recovery rules---the other is radical honesty)---fullhouse is very likely to withdraw to the point of being vulnerable to another affair (although with the severe damage from the last one, it's unlikely she'll actually go down that path again). <hr></blockquote><p>Here's the bottom line, from someone who's actually been there: the wayward spouse is not likely to be fully engaged in recovery until she sees some real hope for the marriage. I'm not sensing that fullhouse feels hope for her marriage. Is it partially because of her affair, pregnancy, and OC?? You bet. But pops has responsibilities for the state of the marriage here too. And he's not helping. And joell---your advice to tell fullhouse to suck it up and make amends because she's the one who's the screw-up here---it's not going to work. It's not going to be successful. She's headed back to withdrawal, and it's a pretty slippery slope from where she's at now.<p>Pops---the two of you need a plan that you agree on, so you can rebuild the love between the two of you. Although it's a help that you're both here---it doesn't really mean squat until you start really executing a plan. Get into the counseling soon. And use the POJA---it's really your only hope for being successful. Without it, you're disregarding your spouse's feelings and that's not a recipe for success.

POSTED BY JOELLpops I will say it you are a saint. raising a house full of children. and if you stay you are a saint for staying. there is a lot of expense in raising chidren and many on here seem oblivious to that.<p>THERE IS A LOT OF EXSPENSE TO RAISING CHILDREN, BUT STAYING AND BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR CHILDREN DOESNT MAKE YOU A SAINT... IT MAKES YOU A PARENT.<p>[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: mom of five ]</p>

mom I realize your comment was designed to be recognized as clever. pops is not a saint as in cannoized, but in conducting himself as a decent person in the face a adversity. of course raising your children is part and parcel of simply be a parent . that should be obvious to even the most simple minded. however those who are able to raise those children who are the result of the selfish and uncaring behavior of those who should be the one to help them with his own children is to be admired. god bless the little children, all of them irregardless of how they get here. but so many on this board seem to think that pops should be sitting in a corner somewhere mumbling to himself how lucky I am , how lucky I am. seldom does anyone respect him and the dignity he has shown in dealing with this.I can understand pops if he doesn't feel loved by the one who should have held him above all others. words are cheap and come readily to the lips of those who find themselves needing their significant other in some emergency of some kind. Im not sure pops is being loved . Im afraid he is being used and thats not right. I hope Im wrong on this. but Im in his corner. I still believe the little girl would have benefited by adoption. there are so many families with so much love to give.

K is 100% right on this. Like pops, my H went through the same angry period only it did not last nearly as long. As I was trying to do my best to make things right and make my marriage work my H was doing everything to drive me away with his anger. I realized how angry he was and rightly so but I was just looking for the smallest signs that he was willing to make this work and I could not see any. I was not looking for absolution or compliance just hope. I finally told him that although it was not what I wanted that I would be leaving because I could not stand to see the state I had put him in anymore. I would NOT be returning to OM but rather getting my own small place. I was hoping that the space between us would help. It never came to that. I had enough time to look in the paper for a few nights trying to find a place when my H and I finally sat down and really talked about repairing the damage I had done. So no, I also don't think FH should "suck it up" as that is not going to help either one of them or thier marriage. At this point everything should be POJA. I know pops feels jipped because up til now nothing else has been a POJA but it has to start somewhere, it has to start now not after the damage has been so great that no POJA in the world will fix it.