"I do know that the WS suffer, but it's more about the suffering over the pain that we caused the people we love, all of them, BS, OP, and our children."<p>Dear CM,<p>Would you please elaborate on this? It might be very helpful.<p>When (during the many years your A took place) did you experience this suffering? The beginning of the A? The middle of the A? The end of the A? ... if the A has indeed ended ... (meaning NO secret contact of ANY kind)? All the years? Relatively little of the time?<p>What was the suffering like in nature? (ie; Weight loss? Insomnia? Headaches? Anxiety? Crying? Mood disorders? )<p>When you experienced suffering ... what changes did you make to reduce or relieve the suffering?<p>How much suffering did you experience as a direct result of your hurting your MM's W and her kids? When? Why? What did you do about it?<p>Thanks.....!<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</p>

Dear PepperB,<p>I will certainly try to answer your questions. But they are tough to face.<p>Let me say first that the A has ended. For me, it really has. The Emotional aspect seems to be hard for OP to let go of and he does still call me at work. I have caller ID and have resisted picking up when I’m in the office. I am trying to recover from the loss of this relationship. It was my life for a long time. It is a process and I am finding it gets easier and I am feeling better everyday.
That said…<p>Its not easy to pinpoint when the suffering began. I would say that I suffered a very long time in my marriage to begin with, before the affair. I didn’t know about MB then or what our needs as human beings were. The stage was being set so when I met OM, I felt elated and my emotional needs began to be filled by my “friend”. No suffering yet. I saw him as mirror of myself. If I was so unhappy in my M, he must have been too, to be in it with me so I thought. <p>I’d say that as our relationship took a turn toward PA, I began to feel guilt. Guilt over loving a man who was married, over his confusion about wanting to leave marriage, torn about whether to fillfill my own desires to have a life with him and as a result leave his children in a broken home. Worried about what would happen to my husband, who had just found sobriety. Pain over feeling selfish because when I was with OM, I felt….happy. At the expense of so many others.<p>The suffering was both physical and emotional. I’d be moody quite often at home. Very distant from husband and family. (much like withdrawl now) and I drank more alcohol for the effect and ate less. My husband stopped drinking so I’d go out with OM or coworkers for happy hour. I cried a lot. Mostly to myself but sometimes to OM. We somehow became bonded by our secret. There was no one else to confide our misery in. <p>The relief came in waves. Sometimes, it would just pass on it’s own. Other times, OM would comfort me. We’d talk about things until we felt better about our lives and our relationship. At the time, our life seemed better. But remember something, we weren’t trying to end affair at that time, only learn to live with it or review over and over why we should or shouldn’t end marriages. Rationalizing by 2 very irrational people I see it now, looking back.<p>MM’s wife doesn’t know about our affair. At least, as far as we know she does not.
I thought about her often and as the affair progressed and followed the normal path most relationships take, I began to empathize with her and become angry at OM when he treated her without considering her feelings. A far cry from the beginning of A, when I seen her as my enemy and competition for the man I came to love. During the times (about 4) throughout our affair, when he seemed to be ready to take the next step toward being in a “real” relationship, I felt held back from it not only because of my husband but also because of his wife and 2 children. I never really developed that feeling of her being my enemy. I realized that was not the case early on. I didn’t want to destroy his family or my husband. I was in a relationship with a man I felt I could not live without and didn’t know how to stop and move on without him and still be "happy". It may sound lame now, but let me tell you, it was real. That is how it lasted all those years. We asked so many times, how do we go on? Our hearts held us back, both from leaving the affair, and from leaving our marriages and hurting people who didn’t deserve to be hurt.
I was suffering from emotional torment I’d have to say. I used to dream about her. Most often the dream would take place in their house. (I was only in it with the 2 of them, never alone with him just as an fyi) She’d invite me in and was so nice and just a normal woman, just like me. Very often he wasn’t even in the dream. I would wake up in the middle of the night, in a sweat. <p>One day she called me at work to say he asked her to call me because he was out of town and that they were coming to a company party and she wanted to talk about some of the details. My heart dropped. I thought I was going to die on the spot. I dreamed about her even more after talking to her and seeing her. She became real. I wanted to end it and yet, I didn’t. I tried to forget about her. He rarely spoke of her because he knew how I felt. Someone with her name made me shiver. I was in denial and that was my salvation at the time. I just denied her existence. That was what I did about my suffering. I pretended it wasn’t hurting anyone other than him and me because they didn’t know. When I became pregnant, I decided this was it. I either moved forward with him, or without him. I could not live with ruining my husband or OM’s wife and kids. It was the catalyst event of our A. For me anyway. It was the beginning of the end for me. Its been a hard relationship to walk away from but I feel better than I have in years. He is free to work on his life and marriage and I am finally freeing myself of all the pain I caused in M while the A was happening. I just want to say one more thing. The A is a process. It unfolds over time. No one in the beginning could ever fathom that something that feels so good in the beginning could be so wrong and has the potential to destroy not only us, but the people who are closest to us.

Thanks CM. I hope it helps you process your early personal recovery to discuss these things. You did not mention what changes you made to reduce or relieve your pain when you were suffering during the A... any thoughts? You let OM comfort you (like taking a drink to mask the pain of drinking too much, is it not?)Do you recall altering directions because of discomfort?<p>P [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</p>

CMiranda, I'm sorry for your pain.<p>Does your H and MM's W know of the A? Because if they don't, their choices are still being taken away. <p>When I discovered H's A with OW and 2 OC's, it was devestating, to say the least.<p>I am now 6 years into recovery. The biggest thing I resent is that my choices were taken away. I do not see how my H and I could have possibly grown togther, over the past 6 years, if the truth had never been revealed. <p>ember

ember:<p>Unless I've been asleep for the past several weeks, CM's H and OMW don't know.<p>"The biggest thing I resent is that my choices were taken away. I do not see how my H and I could have possibly grown togther, over the past 6 years, if the truth had never been revealed. "<p>This is also the thing I resent about my W's As the most of all. That she had them is having less of a hurtful impact on me right now. It feels pretty strange, actually. But since she didn't tell me about the first one 12 years ago, I had my choices taken from me all those years, AND she had ANOTHER A with the same OM, the one that ended last November, and that I found out about on my own in January. <p>So, though things are going pretty well right now between us, I have to decide whether I can live the rest of my life with someone so close to me that lied to me for 11 years. It's a very tough decision for me. But I feel priveleged to HAVE that decision to MAKE. It's a lot better than "blissful ignorance" (which isn't blissful at all, I would add). And so I know what CM's H and her OMW are going through - they don't understand why their lives have been so incomplete for the past 6 years. <p>Hopefully, they will soon.

2long, thanks for the reply.<p>I'm sorry for the pain you are in. Does your W show any remorse? My H has totally changed for the better. That is why H and I are 6 years into recovery.<p>It's a big choice to stay or go. But at least you now have a choice.<p>ember

CM~ I hope you decide to post here again. I was/am attempting to have a healing moment with/for you/us.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

ember:<p>My W seemed to show a little remorse about a month ago, when she called me to tell me she'd realized she'd never told any of her old boyfriends that she would never see them again. She was crying. I told her that I want to be there for her to help her through W/D, and she seemed comforted by that. That evening, she called again, and only talked about work. After that, the temporary break in the fog closed back up and we haven't made any fundamental progress since. So, no. I don't think my W has felt true remorse for having her As.

2long, I'm sorry your W has hurt you so much.<p>Who is Peter Gabriel? I would like to read more of him.<p>Maybe we should start a new thread?<p>ember

I think you two should stay on this thread ... and discuss healing things. No need to start a new thread as far as I'm concerned.<p>
P [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Pepperband, thanks for your reply. You sound like a very up-beat person. How many years are you and H into recovery?<p>ember

Hi Ember.<p>About the same length of time as you! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Recovery began January 1996.<p>Nice to meet ya!<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ember:
<strong>2long, I'm sorry your W has hurt you so much.<p>Who is Peter Gabriel? I would like to read more of him.<p>Maybe we should start a new thread?<p>ember</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Sorry to butt in ember but Peter Gabriel is a Brittish singer. He was the lead singer of the group Genesis until 1975 when he left the group to concentrate on his family - I guess he is a Marriage Builder himself - and the drummer at the time, Phil Collins took over as lead singer for the group until it's demise just a few years ago. When he was with the group, he dressed up in these outrageous, otherwordly outfits that sometimes eclipsed the other members of the band - Genesis -. He dropped all the theatrics after he left the band and just became an eclectic singer with titles such as 'Shock the monkey', the chilly 'War without tears', 'Sledgemember', 'Red rain', etc.

TooMuchCoffeeMan, thanks for the information.<p>ember

TMCM~~<p>Nice tag line ... now you need to add:<p>I will fear no decaf , yea, though I walk through the valley of the un-leaded ... etc.<p>P [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>TMCM~~<p>Nice tag line ... now you need to add:<p>I will fear no decaf , yea, though I walk through the valley of the un-leaded ... etc.<p>P [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Thanks Pepperband.<p>It's my little spoof of Frank Herbert's 'Litany against fear' invoked by the character Paul Atreides from his novel 'Dune', but with a caffeinated twist to it of course.

Pepper,<p>You really made me go back into my archives to answer your original question. For that, I thank you. You made me THINK. I would have liked to continue our discussion but I am not feeling like I want to share any more of myself here. I am not happy with the fact that Mom0f5 and WIB were pushed off this site by someone who also lashed out at me last friday.
I wasn't around over the weekend, but as I understand it, she (gemini) started a thread called CM (that would be me I imagine) and there was some very insulting and persoanl attacks toward some really good people who, just so happen, are alot like me. FWS.<p>It took a long time for me to feel comfortable enough to reveal honestly here. As I did to your question on this thread. See, what is bothersome and not acceptable to me is this. Fear to be who we are and offer what we have lived. Honestly. <p>If people, whether they be WS, BS, OW, OM, whoever, want to learn and grow, and want the perpective that someone both in our shoes and someone who is on the other side has to offer, well then they are soppose to come here and take what they can use and leave the rest.
But what is happening is some (not the majority thankfully) lash out and insult when someone, like the FWS with OC, come here and say something in honesty and get attacked because the BS is pained by our truth. I can not accept it and I won't subject myself to it. If this is what these types need, then a fantasy site should be created for them to go to, one where there is no divorce and no affairs and no OC, and we all live happily ever after with our heads stuck in the sand.
I want to spend some time corresponding with one of the nice ladies who left here yesterday, over email. I think she could use some support. I owe that to her and to myself. So for now, I will exit this thread. If I come around to this site in the next few weeks, I'll drop a line in. I won't give Gemini the power to send me off. I'll leave when I no longer can learn from some of the wonderful people on this board, both those like me and those who are the BS who have hearts big enough to understand both sides, not just their own. A pancake has 2 sides. Always, 2.
God Bless you all and I wish you happiness and the power of forgiveness.

{{CM}}<p>Whenever I decide to post to a WS or a FWS, I try to speak in a manner I would like others to use if they were posting to my H (if he were to post here). If I cannot find that voice ... the voice I would have my WH hear ... I try to avoid posting until I can find that place in my mind and heart to use that voice. My voice that believes in redemption and reconciliation.<p>It has to be difficult for BSs' whose current situation is not as good as mine to find such a voice. All they feel is pain and outrage. They are also wonderful people, stuck in an awful place ... just as you have been stuck in an awful place.<p>My prayer for you CM , is you don't get stuck .... you keep yourself open, you keep yourself moving forward, you keep thinking, you question yourself more than you question others, you keep your eye on your long term goal ... birthing a new marriage. A marriage where you do not have to hide your true self. A marriage where you can breathe freely the fresh clean air of honesty, openness, and unashamed intimacy.<p>Peace be with you.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ember:
<strong>CMiranda, I'm sorry for your pain.<p>Does your H and MM's W know of the A? Because if they don't, their choices are still being taken away. <p>When I discovered H's A with OW and 2 OC's, it was devestating, to say the least.<p>I am now 6 years into recovery. The biggest thing I resent is that my choices were taken away. I do not see how my H and I could have possibly grown togther, over the past 6 years, if the truth had never been revealed. <p>ember</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
You know Ember, I thought you were kind to have responded as you did. I thought you had some good advice.
I've learned more about you now and I think you and Gemini should be ashamed of yourselves. Please, don't bother responding to me ever again. Of course it's your right, but don't expect that I care.