My h finally talked to me about the whats and whys of A, from perspective of his weaknesses which got him into A and his carelessness. It was very difficult. I found out things I had not known-=that he began internet surfing on porno sites and chat rooms before I conceived our 3rd child, that he thought my kids meeting OW was o.k. because she is/was a '
nice person" and that he tried several times to end it, but he was addicted to it all.<p>More was disclosed-the worst? That this man I loved for so long has been a completely different man in the last 4-5 years. A man I really didn't know. A man I would never have fallen in love with had I known nor married him, had he been like this when I married him. A man who turned his back on his wife and kids because of sexual needs-and others. A man who I have no respect for and little feelings for.<p>I am not sure where we are headed. I know he does not defend what he did-knows he was careless, stupid, weak, etc. KNew he took chances on my life with him and our kids and family. I don't see how he could take such chanced with the family he already had.<p>
And when he told me he cared about OW, thinks of her as "mother of his child" it made me feel sick, and hate the OW more.That position was supposed to only belong to me.<p>And as I told him, probably a love buster, you were allegedly supposed to care about me as mother of your kids, but didn't and look what happened.<p>I am sad, overwhelmed, etc. I don't worry H would do this again, oddly,but the fact he did it so long and with such careless recklessness, troubles me and keeps me away from him. And when he speaks well of OW, I want to scream and tell him the OW is no friend or nice person of me or my family.<p>I cannot believe this man was so stupid and reckless with my life and my kids' lives. He could have done whatever he wanted with his life had he been single, but to do all this with such recklessnes when he was responsible for me and our kids, really sickens me and keeps me away from him.<p>I don;'t know if I can stay with him with all this.

Ah honey,
I don't have much time to write, but I wanted to let you know I know where you are coming from.<p>It was sooooo aweful hearing the horrid details about where my H's head was at. But it was a necessary step towards healing.<p>I know just the sight of your H makes you angry, but do know with true remorse, the new and improved H can be ten times greater than the one that stood at the alter with you.<p>He definately will be much wiser from all this.<p>Keep you mind on what can and will come of all this that is good.<p>Keep working, your'e doing a great job,
Z.

Oh UW, I am so sorry for your pain.<p>I have also been where you are and remember how it felt to hear my H say "she IS the mother of my child". Like 100 tiny daggers in your heart...<p>Yes, he did take chances with his life with you, he cared more about his own pleasures than what was best for the family, he was at that time all the terrible things that you say. But he was "in the fog" then. He was, as you said, not the man you loved and married.<p>But as Zebra said, with a little patience, a lot of remorse and a whole lot of faith, he can be ten times better. <p>Sounds to me like you are cracking the door and getting him to truly open up. The urge to LB is very strong now because you are hearing such hurtful things. Think of it like a movie. These are things that happened - past tense. You are only watching the video. He has turned the corner and is trying, however awkwardly, to get your marriage back on track.<p>It is so hard not to let every description of the A hurt you as if it happened yesterday. But try to listen with your head, not your heart. <p>Don't think you can stay with him? I think you are doing great. You are feeling what most of us feel when confronted with what you are dealing with. This is a painful time but you have to go through it to get to the better times.<p>I am praying so hard for you. You have more strength than you know. <p>love,
heavenly

Heavenly and zebra, I am so greatfulf or your thoughts and responses. It means so much, you cannot know.<p>Yes, I know H is not who he was during the A, but when you do this to someone for years and years, how cannot one believe that there is still a part of him, just like that? That deep down, he is that man.<p>I stay for my children, mainly, but when he speaks of his deep desire for contact for his OC, it pains me no end. He does not seem to get it that the oC's existence pains me,. will always pain me, took something very precious to me that he can never give back to me. And took things from my kids and family as well. He is attached to child due to his DNA- I swear, He bonded with him over time before I knew the child existed, and then he expects me to understand. Instead, I see another example of his selfishness-he made things worse for me, the OC, and him and I, and our children, by connecting with child when I knew not even of his existence. ANd now he cannot , says he will not give that up.<p>He confirmed today, as I long suspected, that he did not tell me about A and OC, even a long time after his birth, for fear I would leave him immediately. See, he knew what I would think and feel. He is right-he knew the heartbreak he had created for me. He ruined a lot. But by being a chicken=sh-- not telling me, he took my choices and his choices away about contact with the child. <p>He knows still I have not decided for sure to stay. THat is true. My annivesary is very close, and you know what-every card I looked at sounded like me lying to him. I couldn't send him a card that said I am so happy to have you in my life, you are a great husband. Couldn't say how wonderful a father he is, since I believe he has sabotaged that as well for our children. I looked at many cards, none were right. NOne are right. NOne say what I want to say.<p>Keep telling me how this fits for your recovery. What made the difference for you all?

UW,
Just wanted you to know I am thinking about you.
Tina

UW,<p>You thoughts and sentiments MIRROR what I (and many others) felt during this stage after d-day.<p>It was a combinations of anger towards husband, and grief of what was lost (and surely never to be recovered).<p>But so many women on this board kept assuring me that there was light at the end of the tunnel, that I would in fact move past the anger and that when my marriage began TRUE recovery I'd be more pleased with the final package.<p>I can't tell you when I started really believing the second part. I think it was somewhere when my H really started his metamorphisis. The change in him became more and more apparant as every day passed.<p>The trick though was to move past the anger. A good friend of mine pointed out to me (and I've pointed out to others) that as long as I stayed in the "victim" role I would never progress with my healing. <p>Whether my husband stayed or left, either way I was going to be stuck with myself. I had the choice to be stuck with a bitter, anger hardened woman, or I could be stuck with a stronger, wiser, forgiving woman. <p>Another motivator was my mother. I didn't want to be like her. As much as I love my mom. She is still angry at my father. They divorced years and years ago and still she can't mention his name without venom. It's obvious and to this day she's single. I didn't want to end up like that. <p>Another thing that got me through the anger/resentment stage was I didn't want to be the one to have to explain to my kids why I couldn't forgive their dad for his mistake if he was willing to change. I wanted to give this marriage my all and if it failed I would know I did my part towards recovery. I would walk away with a clear conscious.<p>So what was my part? My part was number one to work on me. Find what was inside of me that was pushing him away. Find out what his needs were that I wasn't meeting. Find out what I could do to make me a happier person (thus more desireable to be around). Figure out how to be a better mother (which was in fact one of his biggest gripes with me). Find out how to get closer to God and get in touch with my spirituality.<p>So much apart of what I worked on with me inspired him to treat me differently. He began to look at me differently and in his words, "made him fall back in love with me." And that made me fall back in love with him. <p>I became a different person and so did he. We are both so very different from pre-affair. Not only in how we deal with each other but how we deal with ourselves.<p>By no means are we perfect. We both hold the claim to be a "work in progress". But progress is the key word. You always have to be working towards something better.<p>UW, don't expect to be in love with your husband right away. But do work on loving yourself and working at bettering yourself.<p>Have you thought of asking him to hold off for a couple of months on visitation so that you can both work on not only the marriage but yourselves personally without having the visitation distraction?<p>Have you discovered what you need to work on for yourself? If so, share those things with him and what you plan to do towards changing them. You may be surprised at his response. He may just be inspired to do some of his own self examination.<p>You said one thing that bothered me terribly:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>He knows still I have not decided for sure to stay.<hr></blockquote><p>Ok UW, I need you to put yourself in his shoes for just a second with this quote in mind. Would you go out on a limb and give up all contact with your biological child for a woman who may or may not stay with him? How could you realistically expect him to give 100% towards rebuilding a marriage when you yourself aren't sure you want to stay?<p>I think I posted on another thread that unfortunately you as the BS have the burden to make the marriage a safe place for not only sharing, but for rebuilding. Your husband is probably scared shytless to go out on a limb for your or your marriage knowing that you could be hell bent on revenge. <p>My advice to you is to make up in your mind whether you are in it or out of it. And it can't be "I'll be in it if he does this or that" You have to make a firm decision you are with him for better or worse and work from that point. You have to feel and believe it in your gut then dig your feet in the ground and say to yourself, "I'm gonna fight like hell for my marriage."<p>Don't think about the whole visitation thing. You'll address that issue in time. This about you and him. Not about your kids with him or his kids with OW. This is about you two and whether or not you are in it for the long haul.<p>I hope I gave you some stuff to think about. Please share with me your thoughts on what I've written.<p>Z.<p>edited for typo.<p>[ June 19, 2002: Message edited by: zebrababy ]</p>

Hi UW,
I like what zebrababy said to you. HUGS are in order!!! {{{{{UW}}}}}<p>Your feelings and your thoughts are valid and probably will never change until you make up your mind to change and change. Change is not change until you change! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Right now tho, it seems you are beating your head against a brick wall trying to get your H to understand and empathize with you!? It seems your H did what he did because he was afraid of losing you but by continuously deceiving you, he drove the wedge even deeper between you! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'm wondering if he will ever be able to win you back!? But like zb said, it's not about him, right now, it's about you! Your spirit is broken.<p>Have you decided if the pluses of staying outweigh the minuses of staying?<p>Can you ever find room enough to forgive him completely?<p>Your H is attempting to rebuild trust with you by coming clean for once and for all--which is good, but it seems his coming clean has thrown you for a loop! I think you should stick with the Harley's. At least your WS is willing to do the homework! That is a big, huge, plus!!<p>Hang in there, I'm sorry. Be strong for your kids, they need a "whole" mom, not a broken mom. They would doubly lose if you left their dad and remained a broken woman. Ask God to pull you back together--not only is He willing, He is able! And you know, He is the only one who can hold you together once you get there, not your DH, as much as you would like DH to. Lean on the Lord, He will get you through this in one piece!!! Hugs, prayers, and kind thoughts toward you! <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /><p>[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

Zebrababy,
I have always valued your advice, and have missed it lately. I am glad to see you back.
I am sort of in the same time frame as UW.
I think the hardest part of my decision is dealing with OC. If there was NC there would be no debating, no hedging back and forth, no wavering on my part. I would in a heart beat be 100% working to get our marriage back on track.
It is the constant turmoil that H and I are going thru trying to incorporate the OC into our lives. That plus dealing with the OW that is still "friends" with H. Dealing with visitation issues is our major battle.
So yes, I understand that if I choose to stay and work on M I must give in to these battles, but what I am not getting right now is compromise from H. He wants complete control on how visitation should work. There lies my problem.
Please keep posting, reading over your advice does help put things into perspective. Thank you Zebra.
Tina

Thank you ladies.<p>I guess to add one more point I'd like to say that for me ... when I stopped trying to control and steer the whole visitation/contact issue it became less and less of a priority to my H.<p>And i'm not saying this will happen in your relationship ... but with my H it seemed the harder I pulled and tugged one way the harder he pulled the other. When I made it a non-issue with him he was able to sort out in his mind what was right for not only him, but us and the OC.<p>When you read my trailer in my signature line it really speaks volumes of the attitude I have adopted since D-day:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. <hr></blockquote><p>I got soooooo exhausted from trying to change H's mind about OW, vistation, contact, etc. Finally I just threw it to God and let him deal with it. <p>The only thing that I knew for sure my energies would affect and change was me. So that became my mission.<p>UW and Tina, you can both do the same thing. And regardless of where your relationships end up with OW/OC you will be able to deal with it better because YOU WILL BE BETTER!<p>I'm reading a great book now called:<p>The Lady, Her Lover and Her Lord by T.D.Jakes<p>phenominal book that allows you to really dig deep inside and see what's making you tick the way you do. I suggest you two pick it up and really search for healing from within ... not from your Husband.<p>Keep us posted,
Z.

To all, thanks for your thoughts. Now,to answer some of your suggestions and questions.<p>I have thought long and hard what I did to push H away. I know where we both went wrong. Not to believe I caused A-H did that all by himself, but I know where I did not make him feel good about how I felt about him. I am doing more of that now-and meeting more of the needs he felt I was lacking. I think I have done a lot of that in last year.<p>That Said, my H has not totally done the same by me. He does not know this, but my first need on the needs scale is honesty and openess. He has failed miserably in that during A and since. I did ask him to put issues of OC on hold and wait till we were more together, immediately after discovery. He kept talking about him not knowing his child and on and on. But then agreed, while we were in counseling the first time. I was starting to feel some love for him in the last 6 months or so.<p>
Then, I found out he had been lying to me all along-seeing OC behind my back. I felt lied to and betrayed all over again. And lying to me keeps me away from him. I don't love someone who continues to deceive me for his own welfare.<p>He has failed me and our 3kids. He knows this. I frankly feel sorry for him at times-he could have so been the kind of man our two sons could have looked up to-- instead, he has ruined that with his odd needs.<p>Can \I forgive him? not yet. He has much to do to regain my love. I couldn't even sign love to a card I gave him recently. He says he wants to spend the rest of his life with me. I am not sure.<p>For me, the issue is very much the contact issue. It is interesting to note that almost all who have tried contact from the BS point of view, have abandoned it or the marriage to keep marriage intact. Other than the marriages where the WS was the mother of OC, the marriages where father was WS have not been able to accomodate the OC and be happy. Look at zebrababy-gem, cd, and others . All have attempted this-none have worked.<p>I see this in my own marriage-the OW is very heartless to me in her brief commuications to me. She cares only about contacting H for contact. If it doesn't go her way, she will override me and go to him directly. Contact with OC is like revisiting the A over and over and over, because it comes with the price of some contact with OW. I cannot abide by that. As long as H feels for OW because she is mother of OC, it wrecks our marriage. My H does not seem to get that yet.<p>If he one day told me he would never see OC again, I could more easily give toward him and be more patient with healing.AS it stands now, I see that healing can not take place while he keeps dangling the other carrot of his other child.<p>AS he listed his weaknesses to me the other day, I told him what he failed to also recognize was his lying and betrayal to me and our kids over and over. He didn't even put it on his list.So glaring an omission. ANd, that he seemed to make decisions based on feelings, even when he knew it was wrong. I.e. he knew A was wrong and damaging to me and our family, but he thought it felt good so he did it. LIkewise, I see because he thinks he has feelings for OC, he thinks he should see him. I told him his feelings make for poor decisions. He agreed with me.<p>He has yet to do the rest of exercise-telling me of how he knows I feel about all what he has done. I don't think he truly understands totally the depth of my feelings-and guess when he tells me, he will be close, but miss some essential points.
I am looking forward to seeing him how close he comes to identifying those.

Well UW,
You know what you are dealing with and if OW doesn't know her "place" it IS up to you and your H to put her there and keep her there as a united front. Her way of blowing past you is unacceptable and your H's way of allowing her to do so is also unacceptable, IMO. I would hate that too, if I were you. Your H's way of "honoring" her as the mother of his child is also tough to swallow and understandably so. It's like a slap in your face.<p>Still with all this, you must stop allowing them to control you because that is what they are doing. Have you ever heard this before? "If the devil can't steal your joy, he can't take your goods." Joy comes from knowing God and allowing Him to work through us to bless others. Find something you can put yourself into, whether it is self-improvement or helping others or getting more into your kids, but something to move yourself forward. You don't have to rely on your H for this.<p>What are YOUR life goals? Independent of your spouse and children? What do YOU enjoy? What do you want to do with YOUR life?<p>It is time for YOU. No matter what you say or do, you can't control him or her so forget them. Think about yourself. Think about how this situation can make you better, not bitter. I'm not saying that you are bitter, not at all, I'm saying that you can find so much grace through God to see you through this and avoid bitterness that would ruin YOUR life and YOUR good mood and YOUR joy! LOVE YOU! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

UW,<p>"For me, the issue is very much the contact issue. It is interesting to note that almost all who have tried contact from the BS point of view, have abandoned it or the marriage to keep marriage intact. Other than the marriages where the WS was the mother of OC, the marriages where father was WS have not been able to accomodate the OC and be happy."<p>I've been following your story for quite some time and I hope you don't mind but I have a few comments for you to think about. I'm coming from WS perspective and I hope you don't get angry or offended by it. In your above statement, it seems that you are looking for the failures and not the successes to justify your demands on H of no contact. They do exist out there. Look at Stacia. She is a perfect example. More importantly, it is not about what everone else is doing. It is about you and your H. What you BOTH need from eachother. I realize you are the BS, but WS hurt very much in M which is why we end up virtually leaving it. I'm not saying it is your fault, or its okay to do, but it isn't any one person's fault. Each person has a role in the marriage's breakdown. I know that you acknowledged that but I wanted to point it out again because I'm not so sure that you really believe it. It seems like you are keeping score and since H hurt you more by the A, then he owes you more in the make it right catagory.
Keeping score isn't going to work at making things right again. Guilting someone only works to gain you so much and then they say the $ell with this. What about me, I'm the WS for a reason. BS is not perfect, what about me? (sorry to be so blunt but I really believe that it works both ways)<p>"Contact with OC is like revisiting the A over and over and over, because it comes with the price of some contact with OW. I cannot abide by that. As long as H feels for OW because she is mother of OC, it wrecks our marriage. My H does not seem to get that yet."<p>
I hear two messages in here.
1. Contact with OC is not the issue. It is that contact with ow that is the problem. That seems fine,as WS that should be acceptable. BUT..you seem to contradict this message over and over.<p>2. Then you say H feelings for OW because she is OC mother is wrecking your M. Child's paternity can't be changed, the connection to his parents and who they are is indelible. But H feelings are not. They can change toward ow. <p>You then say "If he one day told me he would never see OC again, I could more easily give toward him and be more patient with healing.AS it stands now, I see that healing can not take place while he keeps dangling the other carrot of his other child."<p>This says to me that you do not see the 2 people, ow and oc as seperate and telling your husband that its about his feeling for ow is not really the truth is it? I would imagine the truth revealed of your hate for oc would not be condusive to H feeling alot of warmth toward you. Maybe fear, but not loving thoughts.<p>I'm trying to point out is that from ws perspective, it would seem to me that as long as you continue to link oc to ow and seperate the 2 as human beings, you are backing your H into a corner. (you have said at least twice that son looks like ow, and so you can't get pasted the fact that he is his mothers child) <p>If he chooses you and your family, will he be happy or will he be forever be pining away for his child that he was forced to abandon? If rebuilding is all about meeting eachothers needs, it has to be a 2 way street. He has needs as well and even though he hurt you, you can't just dismiss them and demand yours. I don't see that being a means to success. <p>I don't want to sound like I'm only pointing out what you are doing wrong. I think you are to be admired to sticking with him this far. You are in a process of healing and I realize it isn't all roses. I think it is important to get past the anger for yourself and your fws because it will push him away from you emotionally. It will make you unhappy forever until you begin to let go of some of it. I know, I've lived angry and it hurt me the most. It hurt my M almost as much.<p>Please do not take offense to my post. I am rooting for your M and I do want to see you get the life that you want back.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by unhappy wife:
<strong><p>All have attempted this-none have worked.<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>Untrue. It works for some, but not many.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
Likewise, I see because he thinks he has feelings for OC, he thinks he should see him.<hr></blockquote></strong><p>I don't know how your H feels about this, but I would feel very LBed if someone told me I didn't know my own feelings. Whether you like his feelings or not, they are his and he is more liable to know if they are true or not than you are. You can't give people their feelings nor take them away. <p>He may chose to give up visitation to save the marriage, but please don't assume that will come w/o an emotional price for him. He has been seeing this child for a year and there is probably a bond that will feel like a tear in his heart when (and if) he separates from this child. For the sake of your marriage, I hope that his is willing to do this, but please don't assume that a) he may not chose visitation with OC over remaining in marriage with you if you make it the deal breaker b) that he deserves that pain as some sort of punishment for what he did and c) that part of him may not always miss that child. <p>The really ugly truth of affairs is that our WSs have two places where they are welcome, two people loving them, two people wanting a life with them. They can choose either place. Ain't fair, but it seems to me to be the truth.<p>The marriage needs to become a safe place for both spouses--exBS and exWS to express their true feelings and to be treated well by the other spouse. Your husband is not making your marriage a safe place for you (shame on him). Are you making it a safe and attractive place for him to return to? You have to make it worthwile to stay in the marriage (without giving up your own dignity or accpeting things that are absolutely impossible for you). Someone asked before why would he give up this child to gain a marriage that is still in severe jeopardy. If he were willing to do what he is suppposed to do he would never have had the A to begin with. Obligation is obviously not his strongest motivator. Nor was it, apparently, for any of our WSs.<p>I truly do hope for a recovered marriage for you and a lifetime of happiness. Some of us here are just trying to help you to focus on what you can control--you. Whether your marriage works out or not you can build a good life for yourself and your kids.<p>You might try and get some books on cognitive therapy. You seem to be engaging in a lot of black/white thinking. Your H has done many, many things wrong, but he deserves some credit for some of the things that he has done right, IMO. Because he had an affair doesn't make him a complete failure as a parent. He did do some damage to his relationship with your children and he may have a lot of explaining and making up to do--to them, as well as to you. I think that parenting (like most human attributes) exists on a sliding scale. Some people are better fathers than others but no one is completely bad and no one is completely good at anything. If you thought he was a good father before D-day, why can't you paint a more realistic portrait of him to yourself? Acknowledge and grieve the bad parts, but at least make a list of the good ones. When you tell yourself he is such a failure as a parent, remind yourself of all the good things he does and remind yourself that no one is perfect at anything. The damage he has done is not unrecoverable.<p>When I learned of Mr. J's affair and child I told him that I didn't think it made him a bad person, but rather a normally good person who did something horrible. It left him room to redeem himself and a way to rebuild some self-esteem that he had destroyed by his actions. However, as more details came out about his affair (like he lied and said it lasted 18 months instead of the truth--7 years), I changed my opinion. I came to the conclusion that if you lie long enough it becomes part of your character, you become a liar. I had to tell him that that was the conclusion I had reached about him, that he had lied so long that it was now an ingrained feature of his personality. However, I knew he had it in him to change. There was a time in our life when he was an honest person and he was capable of recovering that.<p>You have to give your H some hope of redemption and that can't involve him having to tear himself to pieces in front of you. No one can grovel forever. He can't fix the past; there is no fixing it. It is a terrible thing that can't be undone. You have to decide if you can live with it. Let him give you a better future (if he is able) than the past you had together. The Harleys say that a full apology is not even a requirement for a repaired marriage. If he cannot give you a secure and happy future together, divorce amicably as possible. You children will not die if you divorce. It is hard on them, but they make it through. Kids survive lots of worse things than that. (I know I did and I know my kids have.) Not all children get the Saturday Evening Post/Christmas Eve life that we would wish for them. You can't take away your children's pain, but you can give them the skills needed to face their pain head on. If they don't learn it during their growing years, they are going to have to learn it eventually. All life comes with quite a bit of pain.<p>Whether or not you know it, you hold the power in your marriage right now. He wants to remain married to you (that is what he says), but he may not remain in that state if he sees no hope for ever being let off the hook for what he has done. Be careful how you use that power. Teach him as gently as you can how to be a good husband to you. He needs help and guidance to make it back.<p>MJ<p>[ June 21, 2002: Message edited by: MaryJanes ]</p>

C MIranda and MJ, contact with the OC is the issue for me. According to Harley's principles, nothing should be done in marriage without complete total agreement. I have never agreed to contact with OC. My H has gone against this multiple times to see OC. Does this bread resentment and distance from me to him? Of course it does. LIkewise, I want nothing to do with OW. I don't even like emailing her to discuss anything. She is smarmy and curt and not a friend. I never invited her into my life-now with visitation I would have some ongoing contact with her, if only through email. I want no part of it.<p>I really am not a black and white person. I think you have it wrong. I well understand reasons my H may want contact, not all, but some. But understanding them does not change my feelings of need to maintain the family he and I created. Keep in mind-we were married a long time without any other people interfering in our marriage. H told OW he would never leave me, and even since discovery of A, he would never return to OW. NOt for a permanent life. He admits he had very little in common with her-his real life was with me and our kids. HIs life with her was like a fantasy.<p>I have done much to improve myself in this marriage, without going into details. I have a good job, good friends, warm relationships with people. They continue to mean a lot to me. My children mean the world to me. I see them growing up into nice, decent people-that is very rewarding to me. <p>The fact is, I know this marriage will suffer with or without contact. If contact with OC persists, I will not feel good about it or how it affects me and our marriage and my feelings with H. H will probably pine for OC if no contact occurs, and on some level be unhappy.Who is to say what one situation in this case will be best?

Stacia Lee is in a very unique situation.C miranda, you mentioned one person who has been successful in incorporating OC into a family. She likewise has on other kids to affect. I do. She is one glaring exception to incorporating OC into the mix-MJ as well, but she does so on 4 times a week visits to a child thousands of miles away.Try incorporating the child into a life established for years before that child's existence with a family of kids who recognize their family as mom, dad, and brothers and sisters, and not the OC. It isn't the same. And this child lives very close. I never said no one can do it, I merely said many have tried and paid a price for it. You seem to forget that as well.<p>Further, I don't think the BS should feel bad demanding some things to get marriage established and back on track. I have heard DR. Phil from OPrah show say much the same thing. Whatever BS needs, the WS needs to provide to keep BS. In my marriage, H was not totally unhappy, except in certain areas in our life. He did not find total happiness with OW either. He spent very little time with OW weekly as compared to time with me. He was not very unhappy in marriage, but became addicted to sex and porn and internet musings with strangers. That is not real life, sorry. It was a fantasy world he knew was wrong. He admits he was stupid, reckless, etc.'<p>And sorry, I know he has been a good father to my kids up to this point, but he has failed them. He knows that as well. I feel for him in this regard as well. I would never have done anything deliberately to put my children's lives in danger or disruption . But my H did through the selfish act of A. All WS do. at least those with kids. My kids know he has hurt me very badly, and have seen how he treats me at times. IN their mind, he is the one wrong. And he is. I know he was misguided in all the years of theA, and he is not doing it now, but his remorse does not undo what he has done and has to live with. Going down the A route does damage people, and many adult children of parents who had A talk of losing respect for parent who did this. Look at the people on this site whose adult children have said essentially the same thing. It doesn't go away. It also tells the kids that during A, they were not considerred by the WS. That is true in myH's case, and true in many others. Let's put it this way-if any of you who have daughters had a son in law who did this to your daughter, would you not feel differently toward that man? And if they had your grandkids, would you not think he hurt them as well? It is the same here.<p>I am rambling, not sure I responded. and I am not hurt by any one's comments. I appreciate all your feedback.<p>MJ-know well cognitive reframing. I actually am quite flexible in person, am not as black and white in my thinking as you think.I think my H is, however, very black and white.